TKD vs. No training MPG see it in its entirety [Archive]

Felipe Bido

08-09-2002, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by Badger
Point-Karate is the only combat sport I know that you can win by being knocked out.:p

That reminds me of an old friend of mine when I practiced Choy Li Fut:

"I knock the guy right in the mouth, blood everywhere, and he wins!"

Well, that video proves what I've always said: Never spar with an untrained individual: You'll go easy on him, then he will hit you once, and he'll go out saying that he beat you in a rude fight.

Or, at least, if you're gonna spar with one, made him know that you're not using full power.

He should've used some follow-through..well...maybe they didn't teach him that at his McDOJANG

Water Dragon

08-09-2002, 08:41 AM

Or, just beat the living $hit out of him.

Badger

08-09-2002, 08:48 AM

Beat the poo-poo outta him & say: "You Win!"

Kickmaster

08-09-2002, 08:53 AM

A very sad display of fighting skills. That's a TKD black belt, no wonder people make fun of them........

apoweyn

08-09-2002, 09:01 AM

well, that's an unwarranted taekwondo black belt. there are entirely too many of them.

The Willow Sword

08-09-2002, 09:07 AM

first of all the street guy who read from a book landed the winning blow,in my opinion. the TKD guy had alot of flash and dash and came in striking and kicking(both very inexperienced)
but i tip my hat to the street guy for landing the kick to the groin. there it is kids. kicking high is no good unless you have stunned the guy and you wanna finish him off hollywood style.
we see more technique on the TKD guys side. now all he needs to do is be a little more reserved,,,quit tkd and go take Hsing i classes and he will be a good martial artist one day.

Many respects,,,The Willow Sword

Badger

08-09-2002, 09:10 AM

You get a blackbelt in every Happy Meal at McDojo's.

neptunesfall

08-09-2002, 09:21 AM

good point Willow; the tkd kid is actually using techniques he's learned (more than i can say for a lot of MA's in a real fight). give him something real to learn and he'd win the rematch.

No_Know

08-09-2002, 10:29 AM

Street guy was hiding. Throwing up stuff--was lost. TKDer didn't take it seriously--wasn't trying to do any damage.

TKDer was playing. Streetguy was scared and couldn't lift his leg any higher than groin level. But he was not trying for the groin shot. Merely scared. TKDer knew he could have hurt streetguy and was satisfied and didn't try.

Morals:enough stuff hits the fan you might get hit; don't seperate your thighs unless you mean it.

I don't see Tae Kwon Do techniques as bad. It's more at how one uses what one Knows.

neito

08-09-2002, 11:10 AM

in tkd point sparring you can win by knockout

Stacey

08-09-2002, 11:41 AM

American TKD is pathetic. I'm not supprised by that at all. The TKD blackbelt going down is a cliche.

the trouble is that most of them are skinny geeks to begin with. Their art isn't that realistic and gives them the huge self esteem boost because they believe they can defend themselves.

I'm not that high in my art and the slightest knowlege of leg wrestling or infighting, is usually more than they can handle....if you have a few good angles and get to their back gate, they are done.

Badger

08-09-2002, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by neito
in tkd point sparring you can win by knockout

Yea...by you(the winner) being knocked out!

Wilson

08-09-2002, 01:00 PM

People fight the way they train. Its pathetic to see someone land a kick, whatever it is, with their hands down and not even think to punch when in punching range. Then to back out and look to re-engage? You wonder why they get a bad wrap. If you want to do tournaments, more power to you. Just don't tell me its real fighting. Both Street guy and TKD would get his a$$ handed to them by a real fighter. Street guy just got lucky this time.

rogue

08-09-2002, 02:00 PM

For the record, the TKD that I do looks absolutly nothing like what the, cough, cough..., TKD black belt did in that movie.

cagey_vet

08-09-2002, 02:01 PM

you said:
"the trouble is that most of them are skinny geeks
to begin with."

i am a skinny geek, and i take offense at that remark.
i am not a TKD guy and i have taken guys down
that were twice my size. i just know how to hit, thanks
to my teachers good training and my decent application
of mechanics. so its not the size of the man in the fight,
its the size of the fight in the man. dont forget that.
just because all of us arent super beefy, doesnt mean
we arent capable. would you like to hear me say that
i thought they both fought like girls in that clip?

anyways, it boils down the the singular person.
some people have it and some people dont.
there are guys i can beat with my training, and guys
with no training that can beat me. i have no problem
admitting this.

and what felipe says is absolutely dead on....
cross hands with a guy who has little training, and
you hold back a little.... WHAM you get hit and all of
a sudden "hey dude, your kung fu sucks... i walked
all over you" OR....
WHAM he strikes, you block and cause him pain.
"hey dude! i thought your kung fu teaches you to
not hurt anyone? whats up with that?"

heres another one, i was at a club one time with
a guy i know who does wing chun (or one of those
derivatives) and we were both sober, by the way.
he was showing me a couple of things and well,
my perception is when a guy is going to show you
something, ya sorta take it for granted that he is
going to control himself some right? so i stick my
hands up like he showed, then he moved a little.
i think he expected me to block or something, which
i didnt because my expectation was on an informal
level.
he says: "so when i do -this-" and moves his hand
over my arm and says: "AWWW you shoulda BLOCKED!"

next thing you know he is telling me
about my reflexes being bad, and me not being sensitive
enough to deal with wing chun attacks.

another story--
a few weeks ago, i was playing grab-@ss with a
girlfriend of mine. she started to get a little out of control
and i wanted her to stop because it was no longer fun
for me.
(some women just cant understand the words "PLEASE STOP")

so in order to protect myself (i am skinny remember? i
dont have brute strength) i had to grab her forehead and place
my index finger under her nose and press backwards until
she started to tighten up and stop flailing.

it earned me a night on the couch, but it saved my
private parts from getting squashed.

rogue

08-09-2002, 02:03 PM

Hmmm, sounds like my honeymoon. My nose hurt all week.

Ryu

08-09-2002, 03:26 PM

:confused: :confused: :( Was with ya up until the girlfriend story, dude. This :confused: says it all for me.

Ryu

KC Elbows

08-09-2002, 03:31 PM

Wow.

Tigerstyle

08-09-2002, 03:46 PM

Ryu doesn't understand the words "PLEASE STOP" :o

;) :p

Ryu

08-09-2002, 04:17 PM

Not in HKE mode, darn it! ;)

Rolling Elbow

08-09-2002, 04:38 PM

Beleive me, i have seen far worse black belts at my girl friend's take ones dough school! This guy actually seems like one of the "awesome" ones she is always telling me about.

I would say actually that the tae kwondo guy did better than i thought, i also don't think he got destroyed but for the groin shot. If he had been using hands (and i think i saw him WANTING use hands lol) than i think he woulda taken the kid with book smarts. The kid with book smarts just stuck his leg out and got lucky..never would have worked against someone who could actually throw those kicks!! ..that's why i don't kick that much, its hard to be a good kicker!

They were both lame although atleast TKD at tht school is not as bad as the garb i see here!

Mantis9

08-09-2002, 05:02 PM

Okay, what I saw was the TKD practitioner take all the initiative, kick, then raise his arms to as if to punch. The "street guy" would turn his head momentarily at the impending punch, then respond when nothing seemed to happen. Then lather, rinse, repeat. They both had their hands low and both should have probably been hit more often they were.

However, I don't have any context for this video. I don't know what was the "street guy" intent for the sparring session or the TKDers; the situation surrounding it; or why their was someone there to tape it.

I don't think it would be rational, logical, or proper to gleen from this video the combat worthiness of TKD or either practitioner. I've seen those bad habit put on display by almost everyone I've every seen spar or fight at numerous points in their martial careers.

The TKD guy used TKD. The "street guy" went for the groin. 'Nuff said.

Wilson

08-09-2002, 05:30 PM

If you read the other forum where this video came from, apparently the TKD guy was talking a lot of trash and the "street" guy stood up to him. Guess they knew each other. From the street guys words, he went over to the school, as invited by the TKD guy and they told him to put on head gear. I guess they didn't really like one another and thought this was a good way to duke it out.

I think its absolutely worthy from the video to see if this school's TKD was combat worthy. It was absolutely NOT. The guy was a black belt, yes he used TKD, and no it wouldn't have been effective at all against someone who knew anything. Don't kid yourself.

I'm not attacking all TKD. I don't care enough to do that. I'm also not judging TKD by this guy. I'm just saying that, at this school this guy got a black belt and couldn't fight.

Matrix

08-09-2002, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Rolling Elbow
Beleive me, i have seen far worse black belts at my girl friend's take ones dough school! This guy actually seems like one of the "awesome" ones she is always telling me about.

As in all things, you should never generalize. While this young dude had his black belt, all bought and paid for. He obviously could not punch, and his kicks were an exercise in head-hunting. The kicks that were displayed in the video are foot-slaps, lacking power and control. The punches are non-existent. This is what happens when martial arts are turned into sports and dojos/dojangs become belt factories. I'm sure this guy could do all sorts of fancy jumping and spinning techniques that are required in the sport. They are very nice for demos as well. However, that translates poorly in practical self-defence or even good fighting technique.

Having said this, what we are seeing here is tournament-type TKD and being a reformed TKD guy myself I can tell you for certain, that there are TKD black belts who can tear you apart. They are however, in my opinion, the exception rather the rule. My point is that you should not assume that because someone is a TKD BB, that they will fight in this sloppy manner.

Matrix

dezhen2001

08-09-2002, 07:01 PM

i can't believe i actually spent 1/2 an hour downloading this clip :(

Bullocks is all i can say to that... my original commentary still stands imo :D

I still can't see why ppl make so many generalizations on TKD... maybe that is the case in the US i dunno, but in the UK there are some pretty good ppl, and some can even use their hands as well ;)

a good teacher who understands the skill (with no Mc financial incentive) plus a willing student who practises hard usually gives agood development and understanding of the skill, no matter what the skill...

david

Rolling Elbow

08-09-2002, 07:10 PM

MAtrix, did i "generalize" again? My mistake..... i too have seen good TKD, this is not it. Besides, as good TKD is the exception and NOT the rule, then it is safe to say that here a generalization may apply!

Matrix

08-09-2002, 07:31 PM

I think you missed my point. If you assume that all TKD players are poor fighters, and for some reason you come up against one, this generalization may come back to haunt you. Keep in mind that their are exceptions to the rules. Yes, the generalization may apply "generally", however in any particular case you may end up meeting the exception to that rule. Just don't take anyone lightly, until you've taken them out. ;)

By the way, I'm as guilty as anyone for generalizing, so I'm not picking on you. My first reaction to someone telling me that they have a Black Belt in TKD is laugh it off. As I've stated, I trained in TKD for more than 6 years, and I guarantee you that I would not have fought anyone in the manner that was displayed in that video. Even if I were goofing around, because we all know that any sucker can land a lucky shot.

Matrix

CD Lee

08-09-2002, 09:12 PM

now all he needs to do is be a little more reserved,,,quit tkd and go take Hsing i classes and he will be a good martial artist one day.

From the little Hsing I Ihave taken, I would only have known one thing. When the guy kicks, move in, take his center, and drive him into and through the wall baby! Niether guy should have been allowed to regain or regroup their balance after the first movement!

I think anybody could have held up their hands, and RUN INTO either guy and knocked them on their @ss the moment it started. Either the black belt really held back or he has wasted his money on dance lessons.

SifuAbel

08-10-2002, 12:58 AM

Why can't I get Keanu Reeves's voice out of my head?

Now everything thing I read sounds like the monotone drone from his surfer movie "Point Break".

~I know kung fu~

See, there it goes again!! :eek:

Rolling Elbow

08-10-2002, 06:47 AM

Agreed MAtrix. My instructor did TKD and his "fancy" kicks are not his preference but if he likes to make a point with them, he can.

Is it possible that both people agreed NOT to use hands? I mean they both had ample time when they could have. Its possible that being in a TKD school, they tried to keep things semi on the level at the risk of getting the boot from the school owner. Remember, there are other people in the school and such "thuggery" might have appeared as bad form on both parts. Do yes the fighting display was brutal, but the lack of hands took away from any real fight in this case.

rogue

08-10-2002, 10:14 AM

I think its absolutely worthy from the video to see if this school's TKD was combat worthy. It was absolutely NOT. The guy was a black belt, yes he used TKD, and no it wouldn't have been effective at all against someone who knew anything. Don't kid yourself. I agree. I've seen three types of TKD, the hard hitting sport style(usually WTF), the hard hitting martial style(ITF,WTF), and the predominant weird "ricey" kick style, which can be ITF, ATA, WTF or any other combination of letters as long as one of them is a T. Most TKD follows the bell curve like anything else, it's just easier to see this since there are so many types of schools under the TKD banner. Also being just average or a little above average is not a good thing in a martial art.

I believe you may see these two techniques used in the same situation with street dude. In our school the street dude would more than likely get his first introduction to someones heel via a front leg side kick to the gut or ribs. It's a big favorite in our school, and I've collected several damaged ribs from them. A hand technique he may experience would be having his lead arm cleared while the fighter moves into street dudes 9 or 3 o'clock where street dude would then get a punch to the face, solar plexus, lower stomach or what some call a tiger mouth strike to the throat. And maybe trip over the leg that's now behind him. These are just two of the things that we practice in free sparring (minus the throat strike) so I know we can use them if needed. The one thing you wouldn't see would be ricey kicks to the head.

Fu-Pow

08-10-2002, 11:22 AM

Was this a real fight? I don't think so. It seems that the kick or punch to the groin was an accident. It happens to the best of us...nature's cruel little joke...think about it...a bundle of nerves just hanging their waiting to get hit.....that's why it's the first target in self-defense classes for women... that's why Shaolin monks used to train to try to suck their sack up into their body cavity. Anyways, if I was going to critique TKD on some things it would be that they lean back when they kick and they try to kick to the head too much. Although leaning into your kick has more power because your weight is behind it, it also takes too long to get back to a stable fighting position. Also, unless your really fast kicking to the head is a bad idea because it is too slow and also it leaves your groin exposed. In our school we train high kicks, with our backs straight. However, I always tell the students that in fighting situations low kicks are better to the side of the knee, shin, groin, etc. even though we train to kick really high.

SifuAbel

08-10-2002, 12:58 PM

My curiousity got the better of me and I downloaded the video.

The fight sucked eggs through a straw.

But, I have to give it to the TKD guy he, even though everything was pulled, was in control. His eye contact did not waver. He actually used some technique. He was the agressor. While the other guy was doing some sissy slapping and pushing, all the while turning his head. The TKD guy did have a clear mark at the head shot. He should have just punched him. The guy tossed out his leg without looking and grazed a nad. Then he gives a ship eating grin like he did something.

If it was a grudge thing the TKD guy should have treated it as such. He did the mark thing and got nadded.

KungFuGuy!

08-10-2002, 02:04 PM

Watch the background, more specifically the taller kid with the black hair. Now there's a great fighter in the making!

PHILBERT

08-10-2002, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by KungFuGuy!
Watch the background, more specifically the taller kid with the black hair. Now there's a great fighter in the making!

Um...everyone in that video has black hair, all of them are Korean. Are you talking about the one who has his right sleeve on his Gi pulled up and scratching his arm (he looks to be a red belt) or the other kid, with the black belt who looks to be ready to spar the read belt? Or one of the guys against the wall?

Now what I find to be the FUNNIEST thing in this video is when all those little kids yell out there scream is when the guy gets hit in the testies.

Matrix

08-11-2002, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by Rolling Elbow
Is it possible that both people agreed NOT to use hands? I mean they both had ample time when they could have. Its possible that being in a TKD school, they tried to keep things semi on the level at the risk of getting the boot from the school owner. .... No, I don't think so, there were a couple of feeble attempts at a punch by the TKD guy. I'm somewhat confused by your attempts to make excuses for him, after all the things that you said about TKD in an earlier post. He was obviously underestimating his opponent's ability to land a lucky shot. It serious error in judgement. It appears that the no-training guy was going for a groin shot all the way. Beyond that it's just poor form all the way around.

Matrix

Matrix

08-11-2002, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
.....But, I have to give it to the TKD guy he, even though everything was pulled, was in control. His eye contact did not waver. He actually used some technique.
The TKD guy was pathetic. Poor strategy combined with sloppy technique provided the results. He may have thought he was in control, but clearly was not.

Matrix

TjD

08-11-2002, 10:42 PM

it didnt look like either of them were trying at all

neither had any fighting spirit thats for sure :) none of the kicks had any follow through

it looked like they were doing some kick trading drill, not sparring

i think the webpage is making that clip out to be something that its not

TjD

08-11-2002, 10:43 PM

and on top of that, the "street dude" had the TKD guys leg in his arms; and he just let go of it!! :mad:

Serpent

08-11-2002, 10:51 PM

This is so many different kinds of comedy that I don't know where to start!

One over-riding thing keeps coming back to haunt me, however. At one point in the "fight" the TKD boy lands a kick onto the side of the other dude's head and the street dude didn't even notice it! :eek: Why learn to kick like that if it does nothing but expose your groin?! The "fight" should have been over there and then, with that street boy lying dazed on the floor.

In fact the "fight" should have been over long before that. If there was any justice in the world someone would have opened up in that school with an uzi years ago and with any luck the "street" guy would have been there at the time.

Serpent

08-11-2002, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by TjD
and on top of that, the "street dude" had the TKD guys leg in his arms; and he just let go of it!! :mad:

Very true, but he also claimed (and it was blatantly true) that he had no training. He had no idea what he could have done with such a gift. The TKD boy should burn his blackbelt for ever letting that happen, however.

If he was stripped of his black belt would he have to give the fries back too?

Godzilla

08-12-2002, 07:12 AM

I love watching that video. I think the street guy won!

Unfortunately you fight like you train. The TKD guy missed all the kicks to the head – purposely, because that’s how he trains. Imagine if one or two of those kicks went through street guys head – not the annoying tickle and push kicks, but the roundhouse kicks to the face. We just tried to touch the head during sparring in my TKD classes. How ineffective! Also, the part where they come in close contact, I give street guy credit for charging. Watch how TKD guy holds on – he knows no close range hand techniques and continues to lift his leg in what appears to be an attempt to trip street guy. Upon closer inspection, he is really just trying to find a way to throw another kick. He could have pulled street guy forward, then misdirect him for the trip (I wasn’t in the fight, maybe TKD guy couldn’t penetrate street guys defenses – haha). TKD guy looks nice and crisp. If his mind was set – or he felt truly threatened – he could have landed kick after kick, but he sort of let street guy fight back – just like you do during sparring class in TKD. Street guy kicked lower and won the fight because kicking low is a great defense against a high kicking TKD guy. The superior technique won the day!

When I spar with my TKD buddies (I am a TKD bb) my favorite technique is the shove. After they throw their kick – charge in for the shove and watch them fly backwards. Then I just beat them silly with kicks as they try to collect themselves and get ready to launch their next series of useless kicks.

Hehehe.

Rolling Elbow

08-12-2002, 08:51 AM

Geez I just wrote a long post and lost it! O.k, here is my reply to MATRIX:

I stand by what I say. Put aside the TKD sucks argument because we have agreed that some TKD is good but most sucks ass.

Now, the reason i said that it was nto a real fight is because of this:

a. The use of a head guard means someone was given an advantage.

b. The fight takes place in front of a class and while they train,. TKD guy looks nervous and is not really giving it 100% because he knows it is likely against the rules of the school.

c. Neither man even throws a wild haymaker ..in fact, they pull their punches the few times they are in close. They are both unsure, nobody really wants to take things to the next level.

d. A groin shot as a show stopper is pathetic but if it works, the man who delivers it should be all over his opponent. Instead, they just stop.

It is clear that both combatants were trying to make a point and teach the other a lesson, not have a decisive outcome where one guy is knocked out or submits. For this reason, what we are seeing is not a real fight..its pretty much point sparring...or should i re-evaluate how use the word "point spar"..have i generalized yet again? No excuses were made for the TKD guy..I have only questioned his intent in the actual fight. They both sucked though...that we'll agree on.

ArrowFists

08-12-2002, 02:35 PM

I don't even need to watch that video. I've heard enough from this board.

The kid clearly had enough skill to take down a trained fighter, and on "the street" (lol) that's all that matter. Who walks away, and who's on the ground holding his sack. Yeah, the Martial artist may have had some great technique, and looked real pretty, but as this video shows, all that technique means doo-doo next to a good ol' fashioned basic technique that actually WORKS.

Like someone said earlier, you train how you fight. This martial artist was clearly trained to kick, retreat, and repeat until the other guy backs away.

Stupid strategy.

However, this kid's training is pretty common in most schools throughout the United States. Its unfortunate that this video will be used as a standard to further bash the solid art of TKD, but until TKD stylists of higher skill step to the plate, this ****-poor TKD exponent will be the represenative of how "Karate doesn't work on the street".

As for the "winner", he's on the JKD board bragging his fool head off. Unfortunately, given the outcome he has every right to be a blowhard.