Something I'm really tired to hear about!

[old jong]

...The ****ed excuses about not being allowed to use eyegauges and other "lethal" strikes of the kind for Kung Fu lack of succes in MMA competitions!...We don't need these things at all and it is ridiculous to compare these things to true skill.
In my opinion,If,you can eyegauge a guy,you could as well punch him hard on the nose and follow the rules of the moment.
The solution is simply to train harder than the other guy!...And to mean business!

[rogue]

Dittos OJ! I've never understood how 2,000 years of development boils down to eye gouges and groin shots. ;)

[Internal Boxer]

Yep my sentiments exactly, whats to stop the MMA practioner pulling your ears or eyes out. Nothing. The only considerations in a fight are moral ones as (bob10 put it).

I see myself as a traditional martial artist, but I also train in MMA and these guys are good, all they have to develop (if they do not have it already) is the instinctive nasty elements of their art, and it aint difficult applying the principles of TC to their methods, so what I have learnt from IMA is useful in MMA.

So both sides need to quit bashing each other, cause I can see both points of view because I sit in both camps.

[Chang Style Novice]

"So both sides need to quit bashing each other, cause I can see both points of view because I sit in both camps."

You must have a heckuva big ass!

Anyway, yeah. Mostly what I study is sensitivity to my partners movement, good body structure, and strategies for hard takedowns and avoiding hard takedowns. That's what I call kungfu!

[Internal Boxer]

Yep its the size of a small village

[The Willow Sword]

that alot of guys will se a UFC fight(i am one of those guys) and the adrenaline from just watching a UFC fight will get pumping and you will go into this mode where "what if i was in the ring?" we automatically gravitate towards eye gouging groin shots because that is the survival instinct we associate the fight with,,Alife and death situation. But a UFC fight is NOT a life and death situation,,,not outwardly anyway,,you could get punched in the head and suffer a brain hemmorrage or get yout trachia crushed from a choke out,,,,,you could get shot walking your dog,,,or drop dead due to mysterious causes,,,the list goes on and on.
from a point of view of a guy,like myself who would neverget in a UFC ring no matter HOW much you paid me,,,i tend to be on the side of the survivalists that would not want to be INHIBITED in anyway from utilizing survival skills to end a fight.
more power to the UFC guys who wish to make it thier living brutalizing others to satisfy thier own ego and ability. they are ring warriors and i would love to have any one of them as an ally rather than an enemy. but if it came down to it,,,,i am sure as hell gonna go for your nads,,poke uot your eyes and crush that throat to end your existance so that mine can continue.

Many respects,,,The Willow Sword

[old jong]

Anybody can eyegauge or try to knee or kick the balls but I don't have spent years of my life doing my best to understand and perfect my art to relie on dirty tricks.MMA competitions are not life and death things and Big John Mc something will always be there to save you if needed!...;)I prefer to be able to punch hard,have good timing and have solid defenses against the usual attacks of MMA's.
The street is another business and I agree that sometimes we might be forced to use dirty tactics in self-defense but,these tactics must be part of a solid system,not things like; He does that,I do this **** !

[The Willow Sword]

but you have to realize that if you are just sparring for tactics and not for the street then if you keep on training for the ring,,,that "ingramatic" pattern you train towrds will cross over to the street and it might be a tad detrimental to you, when i say "ingram" i mean when you do something over and over you get accustomed to just that. thats why we see TKD and JKD guys get pummled for thier "Tactics" are that of the tournament, and not survival skills. i dont train for the "ring" or for the tournamnet. i train to preserve my life,,not to be a bruno bruiser.
in sparring there is a point at which a person does not go beyond,,,but you get to that boundary and you stop. for ex: we spar and we are duking it out and i manage or you manage to get around me for the choke or the neck strike, one or the other yields and then we reset.
all exchanges in the sparring that i have done in the past have been to that end. but i respect what your training methods are Old Jong.

Many respects,,The Willow Sword

[old jong]

I understand what you mean but I'm sure that like me you will do your best to control your emotions in the advent of a street confrontation and try not to become the agressor and end up in court charged with attempted murder.I prefer to use my Biu Gee technique (as an example) in a defensive way to get acces to an opponent center instead of poking his eyes out.I could do it if I wanted or forced to but I think that a broken nose and a couple of black eyes will not put me in the same kind of trouble in the face of the law.We always have the choice and the more dangerous the situation (number of opponents,weapons etc),the more dangerous I will become.It will be on a voluntary base ,not on ingraned moves.
BTW, My art is not a sport oriented thing so maybe I have not to adapt as much as some other styles like TKD (as an example) for the real world.

[Merryprankster]

more power to the UFC guys who wish to make it thier living brutalizing others to satisfy thier own ego and ability.

More power to the Kung Fu guys who wish to make it their living sniping at each other about lineage and practicing flowery useless forms.

See? I can make unsubstantiated "insights" into the minds of other people too.

Objection your honor--speculation....

[apoweyn]

again, i fail to see how competing in a venue in which you're absolutely bound to get beaten at some point is a way to satisfy the ego. seems to me that you have to have a realistic sense of your own limitations if you're going to stay on the NHB scene for very long.


stuart b.

[BeiKongHui]

Right on OJ. It does nothing but belittle your art if that's what you have to fall back on.

[Tigerstyle]

I agree with ap.

Sure there are people with egos in the ring, but big-headed, over-inflated egos are not exclusive to MMA.

A jerk is a jerk, no matter what style he is doing.

[The Willow Sword]

oh im sorry,,was that "unsubstantiated" hmm geee why do i even speak? i guess that all those guys are in the ring for world peace or the betterment of society. goodness gracious me im so sorry.

ok so why do YOU get into the ring?

Many respects,,The Willow Sword

[rubthebuddha]

1. maybe because they like the competition and accept the violence as part of the sport
2. maybe because it's the only thing they do well, and ring sports are about the only legit and legal way of beating someone up and getting paid for it
3. feel they owe it to themselves to see if they could succeed at it or not
4. want to test the legitimacy of what they've learned in a controlled environment
5. are, in fact, neandertals after all
6. are just plain old sadists
7. consider violence a fact of life and just try to be the best at something that comes natural to humans
8. think that winning would be really special and accept that anyone else who steps into the ring has accepted the same risks and the appropriate levels of violence yet still wants to try
9. feels the need to coninually test their own progress and abilities

those are all reasons, and aside from 5 and 6, i think they're each legit. some people compete on supermarket sweep (or other shopping game show) and prove to the world that, on tv, they're the best grocery shoppers around. some people swim in synchrony with another equally silly-dressed person and compete. and some people get in a ring, bash other up, and call it fun.

different strokes for different ... um ... darn. forgot the rest of it.

[Chang Style Novice]

I gotta say, Willow, I think you're out of line in your criticism of sport fighters. I'm going to return to my old favorite, the parable of the blind men and the elephant to remind you that martial arts can be many things to many people and the validity of one does not negate the validity of another.

Any luck finding folks to practice with tomorrow? Once again, I think that I'll be able to join in the week after. I'll probably even have a little dough that I can pick up some pads and other safety equipment with.

[The Willow Sword]

fighting for sport is NOT what martial arts was intended for.

as a tai chi practitioner chang i am sure you can appreciate the zen and buddhist principles behind learning these comabtive arts.
i practice and study for personal well being ,,,,health,,vitality,,and survival and i have NEVER been taught to utilize these arts in a SPORT like manner. i was trained TRADITIONALLY,,so i am from an old traditionalist point of view.
but i have no intention of attempting to change the way this country looks at martial arts. i am no bruce lee and certainly not one to go around "testing myself" by getting in the ring and brutalizing another as well as myself to prove that i CAN.
sport fighting is not my philosophy. whereas i respect all forms of martial arts in thier traditional way what i do not like is the way THIS country has " Bastar*ized" and turned these forms of self discipline in to a showboat and for the amusement of like minded individuals that "get off" on seeing another person get thier clock cleaned.
hey if this be a self riteous stance then so be it. i expect to be countered on this and told i am full of it. it only proves to me that in my heart i am right about what i speak about. for any person who has been taught in the traditional way,,,master paul huang,
dr yang jwing ming,,,,master henry look,,,,,master John Ng,,,doc fai wong,,,,,wing lam,,,,the list goes on, they will tell you that this is for YOUR OWN PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT AND NOT TO BE USED IN A FRIVILOUS WAY. to me sport fighting is FRIVOLOUS.
Tournaments are no more interesting to me than how dump trucks are made(no offense to the dump truck making industry);)

with that i will conclude.

Many Respects,,,The Willow Sword

[Silumkid]

Preach on Brutha Jong! :D

You are right though...in fact, it reminds me of this garbage such as "We can't spar because our art is too deadly!"

BS...if you are so lame as to not be able to control yourself, you have no business in the arts in the first place. Maybe a remedial body awareness class first.

Mind you, I don't UFC proves anything anyhow. It's another game to pass time with, really.

[Ryu]

I will say two things.

First, I must admit (at least to myself anyway) that a lot of the "hype" MMA tourneys have now are getting very bent on the "bad ass" "arrogant" type of persona. I actually stopped purchasing GRAPPLING magazine because I started getting tired of the ads for women's bikini fighting on some pages, hooting at ring girls, the "bad ass" attitude starting to be portrayed for some of the MMA pratitioners, etc. A lot of "arrogance" being played as a good thing, and some would get the feeling that if you're not "arrogant" you're probably just a wuss.
(Now, it's my own opinion on some of the new portrayal of the MMA fighting scene....)
I (obviously) am not into that stuff. I don't like bullyish type personas, and I don't like a lot of focus on sex and kicking ass that I'm starting to see now in that particular crowd.



Now, that being said.......
Unfortunately marketing targets certain types of people.... they want people to buy the magazine.....and unfortunately a lot of young adult males who want to be "bad ass" are the ones who probably spend a lot of money on those mags.
Obviously real competitors and pratitioners do too, but marketing is marketing (whether right or wrong)

The second thing is this.
Despite that, I have met very FEW MMA people in REALITY whoever act or even seem to enjoy that persona. Most of them are like MerryPrankster who are well educated, very hard working fighters who compete NOT to boost their ego, but instead to challenge their skills, and push their spirit for competition. That type of hard work humbles people. Not the other way around.
Not usually. It's just like any sport. Not all football players or basketball players compete for their egos. Some just love the sport. Others want to express themselves and meet challenging situations in that venue. A police officer might become a police officer for a similar reason.... obviously a lot want to help and protect people....but a great deal of it is meeting a challenge, rising over adversity. People do this in different ways.
I do NOT believe for an instant that you can label all competitors like this.
In feudal Asia, martial artists competed against themselves all the time. Whether it be in front of a Daimyo, or just to see who's technique was the best. Competition is not new in MA..... it's very old. In fact.... it's almost a cornerstone of how it got started.

There IS some very unflattering media and marketing out there for MMA...... and unfortunately it DOES make them come across as arrogant, piggish, and brutish.

But hey..... the ninja weren't a bunch of murderous killers in black sneaking around in castles and raping women either....

Ugly "stereotypes" of people start. It's not a good thing. But you have to sometimes try to see beyond that garbage.

my 2 cents.

Ryu

[Knifefighter]

I am a big believer in competitions and testing yourself. I believe they teach you invaluable lessons that you will never get without them. If you choose not to do them, I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with those who claim they are not good representations of the kinds of things you might have to do on the street. Over the years, I’ve learned a lot of things from both competing and observing:

You can get hit full force in the spine with a stick, elbow, or fist and keep going.
You can be eye-gouged and keep going.
You can be struck full force in the groin and keep going.
You can have the crap knocked out of you even if you are mounted on someone.
If you are working a triangle and your opponent stands up, let go.
Conditioning is paramount. A fighter must always maintain his conditioning.
Untrained guys are very dangerous for about 45 seconds. After this they gas and fall pretty quickly to good technique.
You will almost always be smoother and more relaxed in practice than when fighting.
Depending on how experienced you are, you will lose from 20 to 80 % of your techniques when it comes time to use them under the pressure of the fight.
You haven’t lost until you have lost. Keep going, even when you think you are dead meat. Many times you can pull it out with heart.
You can never tell how good someone is by the way he looks.
Punching the air, heavy bags, focus gloves, or shadow boxing give no indication of how someone actually fights.
A little skill and a lot of weight goes a long way in a fight.
One on one fighting in the ring with another trained fighter is usually much harder than one on one fighting on the street with your average guy.
You need both a striking and grappling game. You need both of these standing and on the ground.
The average martial arts practitioner is not very knowledgeable about the ground and is totally clueless about leg locks.
You will almost never leave any fight without some sort of injury.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


More power to the Kung Fu guys who wish to make it their living sniping at each other about lineage and practicing flowery useless forms.


MerryPranksters lineage sucks! That's not real, bjj the technique is all wrong. Not only does he have no form but all he does is wrestle with other guys trying to muscle it out. Look at his lineage I tell ya!

[Nick Lo]

Willowsword- "i was trained TRADITIONALLY,,so i am from an old traditionalist point of view. "

Shaolin Do does not equal traditional i'm afraid.

Since when was Shaolin Do point sparring considered traditional? I think you coined it, "cat and mouse"?

Pathetic...

[Chang Style Novice]

If you consider sportfighting frivolous, Willow, that's your lookout. But it really isn't true that "any person who has been taught in the traditional way" would agree with this statement. After all, no less than GM Ch'ang got his early fame from competing in the ring. It didn't seem to stop him from being a proponent of 'real' 'street' techniques in his military and police career.

[ewallace]

That was one of the best posts I have seen since I started posting here. Thank you.

[MA fanatic]

I think this eye gouge exuse had gone on long enough. The funny thing is, it is to the benefit of some classical fighters that eye gouges are not allowed. Trust me, you don't want to go up against a skilled grappler or NHB guy who is permited to eye gouge. You will be blind.
MA fanatic

[SifuAbel]

:rolleyes: The GG(tm) strikes again.

I, for one, am also very tired of the whole eye gouge/ neck strike thing as the given end all be all technique of CMA.

Its mostly newbie students that come up with that line, always going for the most exotic thing. Still, it doesn't stop some from running with this as if Bruce Lee said it. :rolleyes:

[Internal Boxer]

Willow Sword. I understand what you are saying, and there is truth in what you say, if someone does sports stuff aff the time they could be less effective in the street, but I have never had that problem speaking from experience in MMA tournaments and real fighting.

Read up on Wang shu-jin, he took on all comers all of the time, I can see the value in tournies, and if you have ever competed in one you will realise there is a lot of commaradery and respect for each fighter on both sides. It could be said that some egotists would not enter events like this as there is always losers so the thought of losing would be too hard to handle. And would prefer to build their "martial" reputation and eventually becoming a teacher without any sport or real fight experience.

There are a lot of inherent skills developed in such tournies as it is a safe way to pressure test, listening skills, rooting skills, loading, striking, timing, adaptation et etc... that transfer to real fighting its just a question of knowing what the skills are and cultivating them.

Such tournies have been used to develop fighting skills since the dawn of time. I am not saying that tournies are the only way, I am just saying its one of the paths to the same goal providing the fighter knows the difference.

Keep an open mind and try and see the value in other methods.

:)

[anton]

I agree that no one should have to rely on any limited amount of techniques. But I also think that if an event is representing itself as No holds barred - then it should live up to the promise and allow everything.
If the event aimed to duplicate the street-fight, then there is no such thing as a dirty trick. If you're a good fighter you can win any confrontation without kicking your opponents groin, or gouging his eye, or biting open his trachea - but if you happen to use one of these techniques and achieve the same end: Mazeltov! You've survived the confrontation.

[Merryprankster]

fighting for sport is NOT what martial arts was intended for

Oh, I dunno about that. Ask the Pankration boys from Ancient Greece, the Turkish and Indian Wrestlers similarly, any old time bareknucks boxer, pugilist, an MT practitioner, or a Burmese boxer or Naban grappler? How about the Cestus fighters? Cornish wrestling? Scottish Backhold? How about the indiginous Swiss wrestling style, Glima from Iceland or any of the interesting indiginous grappling styles of Russia? How about the staff fighters from several tribes in east Africa? Not to mention the rather frequent Lei Tei (sp?) matches in the old days that "traditionalists" like YOU ramble on about. The Lei Tei platform is an "acceptable," fight in a sport perspective (no third party is coming to beat your ass, no beer bottle over the head--no gun pulled or knife drawn), but somehow modern day fighters are doing it for ego? Give me a break.

Sounds like there is a history of sportfighting wherever there is some kind of fighting art. I'll give you some leeway that these arts--all several hundred--and in some cases thousands--of years old might not have been originally intended as sport comp, but it sure seems to be part and parcel to martial arts everywhere.


I compete for basically two reasons:

1. I have a competitive fire. So sue me. The game is fun and competing against the same people all the time gets boring.

2. It's the most honest competition around. Two people, one on one, you win or lose by your merits. Submit the guy, knock him out, or outpoint him so badly (in a scored tourney) and you don't have to worry about a judges' decision. I never get mad about judges' decisions--it just means I have to get better.

Finally ap has hit the nail on the head. If I competed for ego, I'd be content to attend every small tourney I could find, where I would be assured of success. Instead, I've repeatedly sought out the best competition available, where I stand a great chance of losing to people better than me. I fail to understand how coming home broken, tired and having lost badly is ego-inflating.

[SDriver]

Willow Sword does bring up a good point about the nature of the venues. I'm assuming you've been in/seen the crowds at mixed martial arts competitions (or boxing, for that matter). You have to admit that if you're pursuing an art for personal development and an appreciation of its aesthetic virtues, you would understandably have trouble with that sort of atmosphere.

I am no authority but I'm sure very little interferes with spiritual tranquility like the sound of a big-banged Mississippi harpy shrieking "poke'im in the see-holes!"

I have no trouble understanding why many traditional martial artists look down on the spectacle aspect of sportfighting. But I bet most fighters would still do it even if no one was watching.

[The Willow Sword]

nick lo : my SD training and sparring WAS traditional. and the sparring that SD does is either point or free form. i will admit that the free form sparring is a bit cat and mouse, and the tournament circuit for sd is growing. but in the early days it was not like that. before sd i was trained in a traditional manner and even before that. i have had over 16 yrs in the martial arts so i KNOW what traditional is and what is not. lets not get into another bash sd rant, that is not what this thread is about.

stick to topic.

Many Respects,,The Willow Sword.


remember where my views stem from: they stem from the zen and buddhist priciples contained within the combative arts. like i have stated before, i use my training for personal well being,,health,,and survival, NOT for sport or tournaments.
Hey i can get on a rant just like everyone else here. the debates are good and i do not wish to offend the MMA people or folks that do sport fighting, what i would offer is that when all the fighting is over and you are bleeding and broken or settling down after beating someone else up,,,what have you really accomplished?

a cherokee indian medicine man once asked me" what are you doing for the world?" i didnt have an answer. he is dead now but i think if i was asked that question again i would have to say, in relation to this discussion,,"all that i can in a good way".

again many respects,,,The Willow Sword

[regulator]

yeah. ok Mr Traditionalist, if you had ANY clue what "traditional" training was you wouldn't have signed up for SD in the FIRST place. :rolleyes:

Nick was completely "on topic" because YOUR defense is based on your "traditional" knowledge, which doesn't seem very traditional after all. if it was so godd@mn traditional, why'd you quit? :confused:


again, you're posting one of those "i'm on another level than the rest of you mere mortals" posts... you're not that different from the vast majority TWS, quit with the high and mighty bit.

[old jong]

The usuals excuses and the dirty tactics.
But,there are good techniques in all of the kung fu systems. Good blocks and deflections,sometimes awsome power generation in striking,hard and stable stances,intricate footwork,chin-na,you name it.The missing link is obviously the ground work but if some good kickboxers can have some succes in MMA in countering groundfighters with a few moves and a lot of conditionning,why more traditionaly trained stylist are having trouble solutionning the problem?...
I think the answer is in the training more than in the method.If you want to face professionnal fighters,you better train hard all day long like they do and make all your techniques as real and effective as the other guy's.
I hope one day we will stop hearing about how "I could have eyegauge him or rip his balls off" and hear "I punched and he was knocked out cold"...instead!

[rogue]

You have to admit that if you're pursuing an art for personal development and an appreciation of its aesthetic virtues, you would understandably have trouble with that sort of atmosphere. But what sense does it make to pursue a martial art for just those two things?

Just because you're training in a combat art doesn't mean you can't compete in ring sports, it's been done as long as people have fought wars and have had time on their hands in between battles.

Does this sound familiar?

"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.'
Shaolin Grandmaster Sin Kwang The'

And this explains why...

Attitude toward your teacher
Your teacher is the source of your entire knowledge. They should be treated with great respect, not only for their physical ability, but for their ability to teach. When your teacher tells you something, you should believe it. You should follow their advice almost blindly because they have been there before. Grandmaster The' is probably the only person in the world with a comprehensive knowledge of the Shaolin system. You should treat him in the same manner as you would treat the President of the United States or other world leader.

We are extremely lucky to have him as our Grandmaster and you should not forget it. The old saying that familiarity breeds contempt is true, don't let this happen to you with your teacher or master. The friendlier you become with them the luckier you should feel and the more respect you should show. Loyalty to your teacher and master is a must. Without loyalty, there is no respect or trust. There have been traitors to us in the past and in almost every instance, the reason has been their massive egos, lack of respect and self discipline, and little or no loyalty. Don't let this happen to you. Someone here has learned their lessons well.:D

[The Willow Sword]

you still have not stated who you are and what your beef is with me personally,, and frankly i am tired of it. i am NOT and dont claim to be ABOVE anybody else. you will selectively read whatever you wish to with my posts and counter them with your OWN self riteous BS and YOUR HIGH AND MIGHTY attitude.
i can and WILL write the the things i feel for i am SURE of what i have done and have come along way in my travel down this path.

i WILL write with confidence the views and opinions that i have and they will be respected by those who will read with INTELLIGENCE(something you apparently do not possess) in to what i am saying.

so REG.. what is YOUR background? what TRADITIONAL THINGS HAVE YOU DONE?
let us know who you are. if not you are just another fuk choad with nothing real to say.

MAny respects,,The Willow Sword

[ArrowFists]

Attitude toward your teacher
Your teacher is the source of your entire knowledge. They should be treated with great respect, not only for their physical ability, but for their ability to teach. When your teacher tells you something, you should believe it. You should follow their advice almost blindly because they have been there before. Grandmaster The' is probably the only person in the world with a comprehensive knowledge of the Shaolin system. You should treat him in the same manner as you would treat the President of the United States or other world leader.

We are extremely lucky to have him as our Grandmaster and you should not forget it. The old saying that familiarity breeds contempt is true, don't let this happen to you with your teacher or master. The friendlier you become with them the luckier you should feel and the more respect you should show. Loyalty to your teacher and master is a must. Without loyalty, there is no respect or trust. There have been traitors to us in the past and in almost every instance, the reason has been their massive egos, lack of respect and self discipline, and little or no loyalty. Don't let this happen to you.



That's some pretty scary stuff. They sound like a cult worshipping their pagan god.

Make it so bad, I bet Grandmaster The' couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag.

[Internal Boxer]

Willow Sword, If you hold the opinion that YOU would not benefit from combat sports in aiding you develop real fighting skills, then it is your right to hold this view as this is what works best for you!

But to say that combat sports do not help to develop real fighting full stop, this is a very narrow minded and judgemental attitude, as it is ultmately what the INDIVIDUAL gets from this type of training.

Try and be open minded, If your views did truly reflect from Zen or buddhist ideology then you would never make such comments as once you start to have opinions on what is best for others thats when the trouble starts. :rolleyes:

[The Willow Sword]

and from my point of view(which isnt the only point of view) it is brutal and serves no purpose other than to be brutal. are we so paraniod that we must be looking over our shoulder all the time? or when we see a big guy walk by that we automatically think "gee i wonder if i could take this guy in a fight?"

have ANY of you been in a REAL COMBAT situation? i have NOT. i have been in fights,,some i have won and some i havent.

Talk to some veterans of WAR and listen to what they have to say about COMBAT. you can put yourself in a controlled situation and test yourself, but you are never really going to know until you are confronted with the life and death situation. i pray that my skills will alow me to survive it.
till then (and i pray that it NEVER comes) i will spar in a manner befitting my philosophy, i will spar serious and get hurt doing it probably, and i will probably hurt the other person,,but i will NOT subject myself to a SPORT oriented scenario where a bunch of morons with hard ons getting off on seeing two men grab each other and pummel each other in to the ground for a trophy, money,,or to get more Pu$$Y.
and here is something to ask yourself: why the hell do you want to know if you could win a fight anyway? do you have a chip on your shoulder all the time waiting for someone to knock it off? is it SOOO important that you be able to KICK ASS?

MAny respects, The Willow Sword

[Merryprankster]

i will NOT subject myself to a SPORT oriented scenario where a bunch of morons with hard ons getting off on seeing two men grab each other and pummel each other in to the ground for a trophy, money,,or to get more Pu$$Y.


Hmm... Which part of my post about why I compete did you not read? Oh wait... all of it. I throw away or give my trophies to the school, I've always paid to compete, excepting my lone MMA fight, and most women I know hate this stuff.

You'll be taking a course in rhetoric when?

[The Willow Sword]

feel better after you beat a guy up, or get your jaw boxed?

[Skarbromantis]

KnifeFighter, very nice post!!

Skard1

[Ben Gash]

I'm also fed up with all this stuff. Eye gouges and groin shots do not win fights (although I have used both with good effect on the ground). However, saying "well we can poke you in the eye too you know" is a bit like me saying "I can roll around on the floor as well" . The reason kung fu has not done well in MMA is because very few really good kung fu guys have entered. Why? Many reasons.
There has been a shortage of world class strikers full stop. All the style vs style rhetoric of the early events was a nonsense. "In the red corner, 3 time all American college wrestling champion, Olympic Judo Bronze Medallist and North American Shootwrestling Champion John Smith. In the Blue corner, E.Z. Mark, who's trained twice a week for 5 years and won some small obscure knockdown tournament."
The promoters weren't putting money upfront, just prizemoney for the Grand Champion. This meant that there was no way that people who were making good money as pro kickboxers were going to enter. Would you miss out on the K1s because you injured yourself in a $100,000 tournament?
Couple this with the fact that the Gracies refused matches with some of the really tough stand up guys (Emin Boztepe being a shining example).
So then you've got guys from really flaky kenpo and San Soo schools being touted as kung fu masters, and the grapplers go round saying "every kung fu master who's got in the ring has had his ass handed to him on a plate."
So why don't more kung fu guys enter? Usually because they can't be bothered. Can I handle myself? Yes. Do I feel a need to test myself in the Octagon? No. Am I completely fulfilled by my art as it is? Yes.
If MMA is your thing, then all power to you. There will always be those who enjoy intense competition, and I have to respect you as an athlete.
I will now make a controversial statement for a TCMA guy. NHB has done good things for martial arts. It has forced people to re-examine their arts. As one of my teachers said to me last month " I was doing kung fu groundfighting in 1970". Too many kung fu schools had gotten trapped in this block and strike mentality, with a couple of bits of basic chin na and a hip throw if you were lucky. People had become afraid to get down and dirty with their art. The best schools always taught comprehensive chin na, shuai chiao and ditang, but it was less visible.
People were becoming locked into set applications and drowning in Bruce Lee's classical mess. NHB changed all that and forced people to ask "what if..." . Now admittedly some people studied grappling and shipped it wholesale into their syllabus. However, many more went back into their arts with fresh eyes and rediscovered the many trapping, antigrappling, standing grappling, throwing, joint manipulation, pressure point manipulation, limb destruction, ground control and submission applications of their arts. Where did they find these techniques? In their forms. This once much maligned training technique has once again shown itself to be a living catalogue of techniques as it was intended to be.

[Internal Boxer]

Willow Sword
I find it a shame thank you take such a blatantly close minded attitude, with your disrespect towards NHB, UFC fighters, you have been scathing in your comments about such fighters, others who enter such tournies who have posted here have not sunk to your level of of name calling, tarring all those who enter tournies with the same brush, they are not that bad. I have fought full contact, and while I may have been battered in some bouts, it really aint that big a deal getting a good hiding, I have had tougher rugby matches than I have some full contact bouts,

No I have never been in combat, but the last fight I had a group of racist skinheads attacked me and my girlfriend with bottles and that was "life threatening".

There are many MMA practioners who do not see the value in traditional arts, YOU ARE SHOWING THE SAME ATTITUDE AS NARROW MINDED MMA WHO RIDICULE KUNG-FU, with no consideration what may work best for others.

It is Soooooo clear that your views are not remotely buddhist, as you claim to be.

[The Willow Sword]

BUDDHISTS shun violence as a means of building character, strength, wisdom. and so to shall i. but i am not a Buddhist,,i just agree with the principles and follow them as best as i can in this society. i will put the same question to you as i put to merry prankster. "feel better after you beat up a guy or get your jaw boxed?"

i am very sympathetic to you for having to deal with racists weilding broken bottles at you. tell me how did you survive that situation? you and your girlfriend? it would seem that,facing that reality and survivng it, as you apparently have, that it would change your nature as to the violence that permeates our world.
or maybe you just got off on the violence as your UFC and NHB counterparts have in the years that THEY have been perpetuating it in the ring.
i think your story is BS.

Many Respects,,,The Willow Sword

[rogue]

i will spar in a manner befitting my philosophy, i will spar serious and get hurt doing it probably, and i will probably hurt the other person,,but i will NOT subject myself to a SPORT oriented scenario where a bunch of morons with hard ons getting off on seeing two men grab each other and pummel each other in to the ground for a trophy, money,,or to get more Pu$$Y. So it's OK to beat someone up in class but not the ring? Personally I can understand why MerryPrankster puts himself through his training more than I can understand why you or I do what we do. I had six visits to the doctor over 8 weeks time from training injuries, 4 of them from sparring, all for the lone reason of perfecting my art.
and here is something to ask yourself: why the hell do you want to know if you could win a fight anyway? do you have a chip on your shoulder all the time waiting for someone to knock it off? is it SOOO important that you be able to KICK ASS? In a word, YES. If I'm concerned about using my art for survival it becomes very important to know my strengths and weakness' and the best way in the martial arts is to fight. The legal ways to do this is by quality sparring in the dojo and/or by entering the ring. Want to guess which members of the forum can and would list their strengths and weakness'? My money is on the guys who compete followed by the guys who spar live and often.

[Merryprankster]

I am amazed by your abilities. You can apparently read my mind--and the mind of every sportfighter on the planet. You can unerringly testify as to both our state of mind AND our motivation with respect to sportfighting! You should go into business with that skill.

You do know that such testimony is inadmissable as evidence in a proceeding, right?



WILL write with confidence the views and opinions that i have and they will be respected by those who will read with INTELLIGENCE(something you apparently do not possess) in to what i am saying.

let us know who you are. if not you are just another fuk choad with nothing real to say.

i think your story is BS.


Just for the record, you come across to me as the the angriest, most resentful "zen buddhist," who ever lived.

Hypocrite.

[The Willow Sword]

its not okay to beat someone up in class. i make that statement that i would get hurt and hurt the other person for that is a reality in sparring. but thee hurt that is inflicted is not that of what i would make to be brutalizing someone. in the training hall that is what you do,,you train,,,and the training is left there. the traniing hall is where you test yourself. out in the world you are in survival mode.

wanting to know your strengths and weaknesses is not the same as walking around with a chip on your shoulder or just wanting to kick A$$. again thats what the training hall is for. if you train serious and you train with respect to your strengths and weaknesses then you ARE preparing yourself to meet that confrontationon the street, should it ever happen. but you dont go looking for it or get into a pit ring and go brutalize another person, to "test yourself". i have questioned at times whether or not i should go out and look for a fight and test myself. or get in the ring. i am then reminded of my own humility and compassion for the fact that i DONT NEED to go and hurt another human being. make no mistake,,,,you attack me on the street and i am going to put you in the hospital. but i am not going to feel good about it afterwards and i am certainly not going to develope a hot head and say "yaeh i kicked his A$$" im gonna do this more often. this is NOT "FIGHT CLUB" that movie was about mental illness.

Many Respects,,,The Willow Sword

[rogue]

Who's brutalizing who? Who's out looking for fights? In my school we spar and it's like you said, training. But once it's time for a belt test it's a fight against my peers and betters to test myself and what I've learned.


i am then reminded of my own humility and compassion for the fact that i DONT NEED to go and hurt another human being. I'm glad something reminds you of your humility. ;)


you attack me on the street and i am going to put you in the hospital. If you have so much compassion why put him in the hospital? Maybe he's robbing you to get money to feed his family, maybe he's mistaken you for the man who stole his wife.
but i am not going to feel good about it afterwards and i am certainly not going to develope a hot head and say "yaeh i kicked his A$$" im gonna do this more often. You really don't get it. You're confusing ring sport versus assault, two different things.

If I remember correctly training at the Shoalin temple was extremly brutal.

[The Willow Sword]

if i am assaulted i am not going to care why i am being assaulted i am just going to survive the assault. if it means putting you in the hospital then so be it. thats the REALITY.

i am NOT a ZEN buddhist,,,,,i just agree with soe of the principles and follow them as best as i can.

yes i am reminded of my humility ALL the time,,,i am not perfect and do not claim to be.

wouldnt ring sport be a controlled form of assault? i think so.

thats why you dont see true grandmasters and traditional masters go into the ring. maybe they did it when they were younger and learned. i am just not as gung ho to get into the ring as they were and i believe they learned from the mistakes and trials that they had to go through to be who they are today.

yes training and sparring in the shaolin temple was brutal. but you have to understand that it was a different time then,,plus the shaolin temple had thier own medicines for healing and recovery times and apparently did not go out looking for the brawl or to go get in the ring to test themselves against the other factions of martial arts. they were elitist.

[apoweyn]

thats why you dont see true grandmasters and traditional masters go into the ring. maybe they did it when they were younger and learned. i am just not as gung ho to get into the ring as they were and i believe they learned from the mistakes and trials that they had to go through to be who they are today.

so it was necessary to their development. but not to yours. why?

[Ryu]

:confused: Hey, if I sit and watch this debate go on without getting involved unless I really feel its needed, does that make me a Taoist?

Ryu

[apoweyn]

i think you may need to throw in some references to butterflies and wine first, ryu.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
feel better after you beat a guy up, or get your jaw boxed?

That depends....

Did we each learn something to make us better?
Did we each face our fears and compete to our best abilities?
Did I get in a good workout?
Did I see some deficiencies that I can work on to make better?
Did I develop and follow an intelligent game plan?
Did we walk away as friends afterwards?

...if so, then the answer is yes.

[Merryprankster]

Nah Ryu, it makes you an elitist little snot to think that YOUR comments are "needed." :)

[Shadowboxer]

Great post Ben Gash!!

[Ryu]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Nah Ryu, it makes you an elitist little snot to think that YOUR comments are "needed." :)

Pft. Be gone, peasant. My comments are always needed.


;) :D

Ryu

[Internal Boxer]

Willow Sword
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The Willow Sword
feel better after you beat a guy up, or get your jaw boxed?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think Knife fighter summed it up perfectly. You still dont see it do you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The Willow Sword
thats why you dont see true grandmasters and traditional masters go into the ring. maybe they did it when they were younger and learned
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By your own admission they may have done this when they were young, so back tracking are we? can we expect an apology? Not likely as your ego would not be able to take it. I am only 30 when I am in my 70's I cannot see myself doing full contact fights, although WANG SHU JIN did well into old age, so is he not a Grandmaster? do you belittle his relaxed attitude to taking on all comers, perhaps you should do your homework before coming on here spouting innaccurate dribble.

Unlike you I have a great deal of respect for UFC and NHB fighters as well as pro boxers. And if you ever happened to meet a UFC fighter or pro boxer, I cannot see you speaking your opinion to their face as you have done to your computer, just food for thought.


DESPITE YOU MAKING A COMPLETE ARSE OF YOURSELF I THINK YOU ARE A DECENT GUY AND I HOPE YOU MAY VIEW THINGS WITH A MORE OPEN MIND IN THE FUTURE. All the best.

[The Willow Sword]

i am not going to respond to all of this anymore. We just have to agree to disagree on this one.

i will ALWAYS maintain that martial arts is for self preservation, and not "sport"

i have had in my signature a quote to which i will remind some of you of.
"WHATEVER YOU THINK I AM OR WANT ME TO BE I AM"
(the above quote is for all the people here taking pot shots at me)

as for the others here: i like the positive exchanges here and the respect generated out of the exchanges. we will not always agree and we all might not think that we are all right in our subjects. but that is what this forum is for TRUELY. the meeting of minds and ideas.


Many respects to the folks here(including the kids)
The Willow Sword

[Ryu]

Don't sweat it too much. :) Having strong opinions makes people interesting. It's much better then having no opinions at all...

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

Once again willow, you're entitled to your opinion. The problem is that you INSIST you KNOW what is going on in the minds of sportfighters everywhere.

That lingering smell in the air is bull****.

The translation of "I'm not going to respond anymore is: I am incapable of putting forth a reasonable refutation, and/or I cannot adequately explain my point of view because I haven't thought it through properly and/or my grasp of the english language and/or rhetoric is insufficient to the task."

Keep setting up the straw men. We need the target practice.

[rogue]

This is the guy I think Willow Sword is talking about, Street Dude on his fight against TKDMan...

"Brokenmace, you are one funny dude.
Seems like i went for his nuts all the way, but that was mainly because i wanted to hurt his precious TKD legs so badly.
I told you, this guy loves to kick people's heads, and no penetration at all (proof in the vid)
As for him being quicker, you gotta remember, it's his environment, and i was just getting used to wearing that **** head gear, which was tight as hell.
I'd like to join classes, but im freakin broke now, and anyway, i have no plans to fight anyone that's skilled (aka not this guy). I just wanted to personally hurt him.
Anyway, I did better than i thought even though most people doubted me, and i love the sounds in that vid, everything is so perfect hahahahahaha."

Please note that this person doesn't train at all, he just reads JKD book (a non-sport martial art) and yet he exibits all of the traits WS says sport fighters do. So could we assume that it's not sport fighting that makes people this way.

Something you wouldn't hear a sport fighter say, "and anyway, i have no plans to fight anyone that's skilled (aka not this guy)."

[Nick Lo]

TWS- your opinions are totally not based from solid knowledge. It seems like you post excuses for stuff more than anything (i.e. your "manifesto" that you posted the other day). You treat the forums like therapy practically. You clearly posted that response because you were called on your BS.

You claim buddhist values for taoist arts (which is quite stupid), then you throw in some shamanistic horseturd, then you come back with excuses that totally refute your other arguments. You are the typical type that just has a strong opinion just to have one, nothing more.

You basically give us your lifestory (again based from your manifesto thread), which clearly illustrates the breadth of your knowledge comes from Shaolin Do, yet you say you have traditional training before that, which of course comes from a student of Dr Ng in Kentucky. If you had trained in that, what in the hell would make you train in something like Shaolin Do, given that you already had this extensive knowledge in a traditional art?

You say you're an internalist, but where does your knowledge come from? Shaolin Do? A hodge podge of books and videos? I'm sure your internal knowledge is probably that of Shaolin Do and then just supplemented with various crap from other sources.

Its a pity that you have wasted 16 years to reach the level of understanding that you have come to now.