What is Internal?

[Ugly_Duckling]

What makes tai chi, xing-yi and ba gua internal? Other external arts say that they have what internal arts do like focus on the tendons, joints, etc. What's the difference between the two?

[Walter Joyce]

try reading this:

http://www.sixharmonies.org/pages/NeijiaWaijia1.htm

and visit and read the links here:

http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/

and read all the info here:

http://www.wangshuchin.com/home.htm

and here:

http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/neigong.htm

That should give you a general idea.

Like most western internalists I started out in external arts. There is a major difference in practice, theory, and application.

Caveat:
Not everyone will agree with me, but that is what makes it interesting.

Regards,
Walter

[CD Lee]

Having taken both, the methods to generate power are grossly different. Not saying anything more than the methods are very different. Very different.

The internal takes longer, but has great benefits that I think bleed over into everyday life, such as posture, mental imagery, and relaxation.

I do not at all think that internal takes too long. Just longer thats all. And...much faster than you thin if you practice.

[Ugly_Duckling]

Thank you for the responses. I am familiar with the superficial explanations between Neijia and Weijia. My next question pertains to what makes your Neijia internal.

I have heard of externalists dabbling with "internal" concepts and then implementing them toward their own external style, thus claiming that they have "internal". In the higher levels of MA in external styles, principles that Neijia practitioners claim seem apparent, i.e. proper body alignment, relaxed-ness, etc.

Again, what makes your Neijia internal?

[count]

Any more of an answer will start a huge and un-necessary debate here where people will answer, "in my opinion" or "I feel..." or "I think...". Many arts focus more on internal than the three mentioned. Many "external" arts become internal in higher levels too.

So I'll answer your question simply.

Again, what makes your Neijia internal?
Chi-Kung!!!


What art do you practice Ugly? Do you think of it as an "internal" art? Welcome to the forums. I hope you find what your looking for. :cool:

[Fu-Pow]

Internal arts guide the Chi using the mind/intention; in order to do this you must be relaxed in all postures, using as little muscular energy as possible.

The external forces the Chi out using the breath. Muscle tension and breath are coordinated to push the chi out to the extremities.

There are some arts that have both components.

[dezhen2001]

a very good question and welcome to kfo :)

I never really thought about it and just get on with my training... apart form the more obvious things, i would say the attitude is a bit different, but maybe it's just me? :)

david

[Shadow Dragon]

Internal vs External.

In the Years that I have studied TMA I have heard many explanation, and none was really specific.
Some even changed with the years to allow for "newer" understanding/facts.

Some even alluted that the split is due to the originating location of the MA.
Internal/External to the realm of the Country.

My advise is, if you like the style you practice train hard in it and don't waste energy/time on trying to get a definition of a term.

Or ask your Sifu, as I think he will be the best qualified person to answer your question.
But be prepared to get an answer similar to this:
"Stupid question, shut up and train."

Peace.

[Walter Joyce]

Superficial distinctions? Interesting.

Do you have any idea how many times your question has been posed, on any number of boards (more than once I have joined in this exercise, try visiting emptyflower or the Shenwu cite and search the archives)?

Do you have any idea how little consensus has been reached?

If you want to find out the difference between internal and external training, try doing what each of us has done.

Find a qualified teacher. (Superficially, that sounds simple, doesn't it?)

Listen to what he teaches you, watch what he does, and practice diligently. (Again, superficially simple.)

Compare the mechanics of motion and power generation to those which are normally employed, and see if you can decipher the difference. (Perhpas a bit more complex, superficially.)

Or,
you could just post a question on an internet board and then try and intellectually comprehend what you've read as opposed to deriving your own physical understanding of what an internal art is, now there is a deep and meaningful quest.

Superficially yours,
Walter

p.s.
Here is my nutshell, it may sound familiar.

Relaxed power is the key, find out what sung means intellectually and physically.

The power is generated by the dantien region (think abdominals, hips, waist and lower back)

The spine, lower back and legs will store and then release the power through the hips and waist moving out through the arms to the hands.

The use of localized muscles will circumvent the process.

Opening and closing of the joints will generate power (especially but not limited to the spine).

Creating a rhythmic wave of your body's fluids will also generate and augment power.

Proper alignment in a very profound sense is required, especially in early stages. (Ba gua redefines alignment when properly executed.)

Establishing a ground path through which you can transmit incoming force to the ground and also by way of which you can use gravity and the solid surface of the ground to borrow power through your relaxed stucture is fundamental.

Creating and understanding the basic jin of peng is a fundamental skill (this is inextricably linked to the concept directly above).

Many if not all of these concepts are useless unless understood physically.

Some of these concepts may be claimed as similar to external arts, but are very different when applied by a skilled internal artist.

p.p.s.

A similar question, in my mind, would be to come online and ask, "What does chocolate taste like?" The answers would have the same effect. Unless you taste choclate, you won't know what they mean.

[Fu-Pow]

Come on WD. I just said the same thing. The Yi leads the Chi. :rolleyes:

I think that the western intellect will never answer the questions of what "internal" is. You essentially have to experience it for yourself. I'm coming to understand that "mindfullness" in each movement is the key. Total attention is a good starting place to make whatever you do "internal."

[Spirit Writer]

And then, after all of that, it still comes down to: Do you have the balls to face another man trying to bash your face in, and, are you good enough to prevent him.

My point? You'll find a ton of intellectual theorists in any martial art, but many more per person in the internal. Train hard, train as real as possible.

[blacktaoist]

All styles have their good points and bad points, so called internal or external:

AN ASSKICKING, IS AN ASSKICKING, NO MATTER HOW MANY MARTIAL ART PEOPLE TRY TO GIVE SUPERFICIAL EXPLANATIONS OF THE SO CALLED INTERNAL MARTIAL ARTS OVER THE SO CALLED EXTERNAL." :D

[Fu-Pow]

Good point. But we should not be ignorant to the methodology, context, history and development of the various styles.

[razakdigital]

Fu Pow - this is not relevant to the post but - i like your comments on the bottom of your post...its sums up my feelings as well

[Fu-Pow]

cool.:D