More Temple Kung Fu

[Sifu shawn]

Hello to all that argue about Simon, TKF< kempo etc.

I will not tell anyone about how TKF practices business. I have never trained at a TKF club. But I will tell you this, I am a 2nd generation student of Simons lineage. And anyone who has doubts about what they are learning, and how effective it is is probably spending more time looking at themselves, then at there training, and techniques.
My Instructor trained at Simons Kung Fu in Calgary and Edmonton in the 1970's. Master Trevor Higgs was the Manager of the Calgary club. He was my Instructors teacher. Master Higgs is a phenomenal Martial artist I have trained with him myself. There are 3 black belts who are true products of Master Higgs.(who by the way trained directly under Simon himself. My instructor watched Master Simon and Master Higgs spar) These 3 black belts have taken multiple Black belt tournament grandchampionships. I am a 2nd degree black belt under one of these men, and have taken numerous top placings in tournaments as have all of our students. The Moo kempo system as it was called in the 70's is a very solid foundation. I have Trained it along with other arts, it compliments the other arts very well. Anyone who thinks they have a pure traditional system that is the end all be all is brainwashed. There is good things to come from all systems. So to say that the system has flaws, duh. Which one does not. Cross training is a must. Simon started doing that way back when. His system is mixed. In the 60's his art was called budo-ryu kempo. I have seen it on programs from USA Tournaments in the ( this program was from the 60's I beleive or early 70's) Simons Budo- ryu kempo. It was Japanese. Him and Parker were partners in the tournament. Master Hilbig was the tournament secretary/ treasurer.
If people want to condemn the business practices that is fine. I know that the way TKF (SImons Kung Fu) runs has always had questionable business tactics. But dont confuse the business with the art.
There was definetly a chinese influence added to his system, I also train a southern Chinese eagle and Mantis system called Tai Liu chuan fa. There is definitly some Chinese influence on some of the kempo techniques. Simons system is extensive. There are many arts in it.
In our club because we train Moo kempo, 5 animals shaolin, Tai Liu chuan fa, Kali, Ninja ryu jiu-jitsu, Kickboxing and sport karate, we have many differnt angles to teach someone from. I have been involved in the arts for 17 years, have alo studied Shotokan. I can teach you a single system for a month the say, okay now here is a totally different way of doing things. Just because someone can teach you a different way(even if its within the same school) does not mean the last one is wrong. Ideally someone should train the basics of kempo for a couple of years and then be taught advanced kung fu. Advanced techniques can be way different. But that does not make what you learned previously wrong. Anyone who does not understand this concept had better spend a few more years training before they argue about the arts. Complain about the business end of it if you want. But I know the products of Simons system are very good artists. At least those who train hard are.
There are many schools that I know of that dont want there students to go anywhere else, if you train somewhere else keep it to yourself. If you feel the price is to high go somewhere else. But please leave the effectiveness of the system alone. If you dont think it works. Train harder.
Besides a large portion of shaolin history is pure conjecture anyway. Most records have been destroyed. Who knows the whole truth, noone.
As for Simon noone will ever know the whole story. Noone did, or does.

sifu shawn

[BeiTangLang]

What?????

[Skarbromantis]

This should be moved to the main forum.

skard1

[ursa major]

Hello Sifu Shawn. I am wondering what your lengthy post is in reponse too ? Perhaps you just wanted to clear the air as it were ?

I too have trained under SKF Studios in fact I started my martials arts training during the early 70's at the SKF at 1050 Kingsway Street in Vancouver, B.C. (funny that I should remember the address after all these years). As I remember it one of my instructors was a Trevor Higgs who was notable to me because of his extra-ordinary kicking abilities. He was capable of a flying, spinning, reverse side-kick as well as many other similar and just as difficult to achieve kicks. To this day I still smile at the memory he was truly a martial acrobat. Back the instructors traded places between branches. The Senior instructor at that Kingsway club was one Wayne Thomas. Now if you have in fact been around as long as you say then you will recodnize his name as well. In 1981 he opened up his own shop (I think he split from SKF) at 25th & Fraser after which I lost track of him.

By the way it was not "Moo Kempo" as you state it was "Moo Pai Kempo" I am certain I have an old faded patch somewhere ? Golden Fist in the center surrounded by dragons -- I had to do push ups once for calling it "Moo Kempo" (maybe you ought to get down and give us 50 ? <grin>).

Almost 30 years later, I understand what Master Simon was about and what he was trying to accomplish. As for his organization I always thought that it failed him and what was otherwise a very good approach to introducing western society to traditional and ancient Chinese martial arts. But that is very old news isn't it ?

As for the martial arts business -- I believe it is the nature of people to 'confuse the business with the art' and I also do not think the general public will ever let us forget it either.

Things were very different back in the 70s as well.

Some Masters and systems last, some don't. I think the ones that last eventually become 'traditional' regardless of their origins. Perhaps in 50-100 years Master Simon's system will be revered as traditional ?

Curious, has there been negative postings made regarding Master Simon and/or his Kempo ?

thx,
UM.

[firepalm]

ursa major "a very good approach to introducing western society to traditional and ancient Chinese martial arts."

Excuse me I think I am going to hurl... once more what Simon does is not Chinese martial arts... there are well in excess of a hundred active instructors in Vancouver (if you are still in Van) that far surpass Simon's psuedo Kenpo excuse for Chinese martial arts.:mad:

ursa major "Curious, has there been negative postings made regarding Master Simon and/or his Kempo ?"

not from these parts are you?!?!?!:eek:

[mantiskilla]

sifu shawn says,
"Ideally someone should train the basics of kempo for a couple of years and then be taught advanced kung fu. "
ummmmm...huh? why?
________
RHODE ISLAND MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARY (http://rhodeisland.dispensaries.org/)

[Sifu shawn]

I guess my answer to that, based on the system that I train, Is because people need to start out with basics to give them a foundation to build a more advanced system on. A couple of years is not a very long time. Unless you are used to giving black belts out after a couple of years. There is no way that someone can learn a comprehensive system in a couple of short years. You have only just begun at that time. Even when a person is certified to black belt level the journey has just begun. It also depends on what the person is after. Do you want to learn a system inside and out and truly master it one day. Or do you want to be half assed at a bunch of advanced techniques, so you can hurry up to the next belt level and have the belt as a status symbol. It is better to be a really good blue belt then a mediocre black belt, at least that is my opinion. I would like to know what you think. This is only my opinion.
There are certainly some systems that go right into fancy techniques, and give no true foundation. Very few people can take fancy advanced training right off the hop, and use it to intelligently defend themselves. There are some, who have that natural ability though.
Sifu Shawn

[Sifu shawn]

I will talk to you more soon. That is neat that you know Master Higgs. Yes he is known for his kicking ability. Totally. I have a couple of questions for you but I am in a rush right now hopefully later tonight or tommorow I will post the questions and await your reply
sifu Shawn

[mantiskilla]

i guess why i was perplexed by the statement was because kempo( if i'm correct) is japanese, kung fu is obviously chinese. for the most part i believe that japanese arts are more linear, and chinese arts for the most part more circular( of course i know there hundreds of styles so my statement is rather broad). the statement of learning kempo before more "advanced " kung fu to me is the same as saying " for me to teach you how to play hockey, you need to spend a few years playing baseball". it just doesnt seem to make sense to me. in fact the people that i have seen come from japanese, or korean based arts into "kung fu" have had to really work hard to "loosen up" and relax. more so than a person with no experience at all. it is however, easier to go from one kung fu style to another. :)
________
UGGS (http://uggstoreshop.com/)

[Tiger_Yin]

1- all that TKF IS is kempo, nothing else

2-" I am a 2nd degree black belt under one of these men, and have taken numerous top placings in tournaments as have all of our students."
buddy... Olaf Simons students arent ALLOWED to enter tournaments as ur style is too DEADLY (what a joke)...

When i was still in edmonton doing traditional wushu i spared a few of his students OUTSIDE of there school cause they wont allow anyone from other clubs and it was easy to notice they lack anything except money and time to waste :D If Simons boys are such tuff sh!t then hed go to the tournaments in alberta wouldnt he? just my thoughts once again ;)

Peace!

[Sifu shawn]

First we do do compete in tournaments. I am not a student of TKF. My instructor quit many years ago. He was trained however, by Master higgs (one of Simonds head instrucors at the time) TKFs students may not any longer enter into tournaments but they used to. Simon and Parker ran one together , remember. What there direct involvement was together seems a bit shrouded in mystery or lost to history, but the fact that they worked together is undisputed. Master Higgs would go to the states to compete in Simons Tournament team. This is in th 60's and 70's. Another one of Simons students, fellow named Blair Orr, actually fought (and lost ) against Joe Lewis. And since you brought Alberta. Let me give you a little info ,Black Dragon kempo ran by Sensei Gil Laffanasie in Calgary AB is a descendat of the Simon System, Sensei Gil and his club kick ass. Sensei Brian Parks club ( the name of his school slips my mind at the moment) always do very well in tournaments. Another Decendant of the Simon system. Sifu Ed Bruneau and the Chinese Boxing Connection, also decsendants of Simons System, awesome in competitions. Master Dwight Scheers club, again awesome tournament record, Simons descendant. None of these clubs is affiliated with TKF. But they teach the kempo as part of there curriculum. I am not saying anything about the TKF schools, or how they are run now. The system as it was taught years ago, and is still trained by those that were there and made it to black belt level, is a good system. Call it Japanese if you want I am not didputing that. I dont care where something came from if it is effective. I dont beleive Simons system all came from one source anyways. It seems you read what you read , and hear what you want. If you are a tournament fighter in Alberta you will know these clubs and there instructors, and you will know how they do.
All the above systems have incorporated other arts into there curriculum as well. But all were trained by Simon himself, or trained by Master Higgs.
I will say nothing about TKF. Because I do not deal with their clubs. You are right that TKF clubs do not now compete in tournments though. They do not.
I do not even know what TKF teaches now is the same as what was taught in the 60's and 70's. It is not important anyways. And the fact that they do not compete does not mean they are not a good club. I know lots of good fighters who do not compete. There is a difference between sport and art.
shawn

[Sifu shawn]

I guess the reason I picked kempo, as the choice for a foundation is because that is one of the systems we teach. I like to give someone a good "shell " lets say. Good basic skills. Kempo, or kick boxing skills. Some Grappling. they are a well rounded fighter that way. Then start to refine over a period of time , add some advanced techniques,.Some people can pick up basics quickly and move on to more refined techniques. @ years was a number I picked because you are still a beginner after years. But I did not mean 2 years as a concrete number. It all depends on the individual.
And yes I beleive that the Kempo is largely japanese, not only japanese but a large part japanese. I did not know that japanese arts are bad. But they are certainly linear, like you said. And also you are right that if someone trains a hard style they have a harder time being able to move to a more flowing and circular form, such as Eagle and Mantis kung fu. But if they stick with it and can change from hard to soft. They will have an advantage. The club I train in, and its ideals are not for everyone. We are a full contact club. A lot of our training is geared towards combat sport and street defence. We have kick boxers, and no holds barred fighters. Also tournament stop point and continuous fighters. I mean no disrespect to anyone or there clubs. I believe in cross training in all types of systems. But the problem nowadays is this, in a lot of cases, if you can pay, you are a martial artist. It has nothing to do with how well you grasp what you are learning, or can you apply it. You pay you get promoted. I beleive in making someone a good fighter first. Get them used to combat . Get them used to getting hit, being thrown. Have them fight with people of different sizes and reaches. Learn what that is like first. A lot of advanced techniques work well, if you are fighting an advanced opponent, in a controlled environment. They do not always work against a guy 16 inches taller, 70 lbs heavier
and not afraid to get hit. Again, just my thoughts. I like to hear what you have to say. Because I agree with a couple of your statements. Espicially about people making a transition from hard and linear to soft and circular and flowing. It is very hard for most people.
But My point at the beginning of this thread, is that the kempo, as it was taught in the 60's and 70's is effective. Japanese or Chinese I dont care. the art has nothing to do with this new neo chan crap. And how or what TKF teaches now I dont know, or care.

Sifu Shawn

[Prairie]

The threads of TKF seem to be everywhere. Scheer is based in Saskatoon and Parks, I believe, is based in Regina. I've seen students of both of these people compete and some do indeed seem well trained. The Scheer's folks seem to practice a more "shotokan like" style than what kempo usually looks like. The Parks students do the standard kempo stuff that one often sees on the prairies.

I didn't realize either of these people had any connection to Olaf Simon. I expect that both of these fellows must have found genuine instruction under a master at some point. However, hard work can do wonders so one never knows.

What I find a little scary is how many kempo schools there are in western Canada. Most claim no connection to Temple Kungfu. I wonder how many of the instructors and founders of these schools were actually taught directly or indirectly by Temple Kungfu. On a good note, I've seen some kempo schools that are fairly respectable - such as the two noted above.

Bye for Now

[Sifu shawn]

I dont know how many kempo schools there are,
But it is unreal, if you investigate, how many of the head instructors have trained in Simons system to a fairly experienced level.
Sifu Shawn

[Lisa]

The Chinese Boxing Connection... is that the one in Innisfail? They were at the last tournament I went to. My fiance asked a couple of them what style they do. They said, "umm...we do both." Whatever that means. Does anyone know what style(s) they teach there?

And I must say you haven't convinced me on the learning basic kempo before learning advanced kung fu. Doesn't it make more sense to learn basic kung fu before learning advanced kung fu? Just my two cents.

Lisa

[Fu-Pow]

http://www.templekungfu.com/kungrobics.htm

[mantiskilla]

never said japanese arts were bad. just different thought process, and to me, mixing apples and oranges. no attack. just curious as to why you taught in that manner. also i have nothing against japanese, or korean, or western fighting. of course they are effective, when the person using it is effective. i totally agree with your concepts on getting in there and mixing it up, too much of that is missing nowadays. you can punch air all day, it doesnt punch back. also, you'll soon find out that many techs will not work on different people( dependant on size, speed, strength etc). i just dont go for the MMA approach, i prefer to stick with one. dont plan on having a confrontation go long enough for me to get much more than 3 hands in anyway. just my point of view. :)
________
LovelyWendie99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[gazza99]

If do a search im sure you will find dozens of pages on peoples experiences with Simon, mostly buisness wise, but a few I remember were art related complaints, not identity of his art which is obviously ever changing, but quality, and practicallity.

But to me your whole arguement/thread is moot point. Buisness and Art are inseperable when you charge for information. Even though not all martial artists are great buisnessman, being a bad buisnessman is very different from being a dishonest one.

From almost all accounts I have heard TKF is extremely dishonest. I dont see how anyone can claim the title of "his holiness" or even be a decent martial artist by my definition when he fools students into paying more money. If your going to be expensive be up front about it, none of this "pay to join the next club", or "pay to spar", or high pressure sales of books and seminars.

regards,

Gary

[Sifu shawn]

Yes there is a club in Innisfail and one in Stoney plain.
It is a mixed Martial Arts club. Kempo, Tai liu chuan fa, Ninja ryu jiu jitsu, and sport Karate and Kickboxing.
Basic kung-fu training then advanced training is the way I am talking about. The Moo kempo is taught along with kickboxing as a basic system. I think that a lot of people that have trained TKF in the last 20 years are not learning the same kempo as was taught by Simon back in the 60's and 70's. It had more kung fu in it, more circular movements, wing chun, some mantis but not strictly. It was also combined with Karate. I dont know what is being taught at TKF schools anymore.
But it is a good basic foundation. I say that because I have trained kempo. But I love the arts in general and there are many good systems of Martial arts that teach basic then advanced, actually that is the way all schools run. You dont learn the advanced first then the basics. If I made it sound like this way is the right way and the only way I apologize. It is another way of teaching, it is another school of thought. There is good in all systems, japanese, chinese. okinawan. There is even differences within cultures, Northern and Southern chinese arts are different in someways, yet similar in others for example.
There are so many arts that I do not like to limit myself to just one. But that is not to say that everyone should think that way. The man that owns the Chinese Boxing Connection is a black belt in moo kempo, a black belt in Tai liu chuan fa, black belt level in jiu jitsu, certified by the WKA as a kickboxing instructor and referee, and a 7th Degree black belt with the alberta kung fu association. The system he teaches gives people a large variety of training options.
Sifu Shawn

[Maboroshi]

I feel if you master the basics of your style, you are pretty well equipped to go and learn the advanced techniques of other styles. It seems many stles have similar basics, so if you learned one you have learned them all.

Of course the are many exeptions to this and I dont feel it applies to all MA, but perhapes this is where they were coming from when the said to learn basic kenpo before learning kungfu...

[Sifu shawn]

Yep , I agree with you.
I had read some threads and there was some people who figured Simons kempo was no good.
I know it is.
All I meant is that kempo is a good foundation for any system.

And I also agree with you in that the basics of most systems are the same. The kicks, punches, stances etc are common to all systems. It is not until you get higher up in the ranks that you start to see the individuality of a system.
Sifu shawn

[wushu chik]

Ah hell, might as well...

Temple is a joke. It's kempo. One of my students that moved just went there and checked it out. HE SAID IT WAS HORRIBLE. Now, personally, i have never gone to one...mainly for the reason that, well, I just don't want to. What's the point?? To say it's kung fu is just wrong. And for YOU Sifu Shawn, to say that you should study basic kempo before kung fu....you have a serious problem. SERIOUS PROBLEM.

~Wen~

[PHILBERT]

I wanna troll this thread so badly, maybe I'll check back later.

[Hau Tien]

I am the fiance Lisa refered to...

I also had the opportunity to watch one of Sifu Ed Bruneau's black sash level students compete at that tournament... he didn't perform a form from any of the styles you mentioned in your post about the Chinese Boxing Connection... he performed a Choy Lay Fut form... no idea where he learned that from.

(As a side note, one of my sihings performed against him and won;) Go Bung Bo! ;) )

[Serpent]

OK, I never had any respect for Simon and his money machine in the first place, but my lack of respect has just hit an all time record low with the discovery of kungrobics! :eek: :rolleyes:

WTF?! That really is just too funny!

[mantiskilla]

didnt see the kungrobics before i got in this conversation...it answers all my questions, never mind. :rolleyes:
________
Hurt From Wellbutrin (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/wellbutrin/)

[Sifu shawn]

Mr fiance, it is nice to hear from you. I am the black belt sash student you are refering to. I have no problem addmitting to losing to your sihing in a forms competition, he did a very nice form. He deserved to win.
But the form you are refering to that I performed is called Tien Suu Nan. It is from the Tai Liu Chuan fa system of Kung fu, not choy lay fut. However there may be similarities.
I know the systems taught by Sifu Ed Bruneau, I have trained with him since I was about 13. The Ninja ryu jiu jitsu has been added only in the last few years. But as for anyone being able to dispute that a form does or does not come from the Tai Liu Chuan Fa system is near impossible since there are only two people in Canada certified by Sigung Tallbear to teach it. Sifu Ed Bruneau from the Chinese Boxing Connection is one and Sibak Ky Fiedler from Pembroke ontario is the other. There are people who have trained with him off and on but very few learn much if any of the Tai Liu system. If you know of someone outside of those two clubs(sanctioned by either Sifu Bruneau or Sibak fiedler , in canada) who claim to know Tai Liu chuan fa I would wager they are lying to you. There are 40 black belts world wide that we know of that are posted on the Tai Liu Family tree, these records are kept by the American Tai Liu association, that were given there teaching degree from Sigung Tallbear who is the current Chujen of that system.

Oh yes and again let your Sihing know that his form was very nice , I liked it. I congratulated him then and I am gongratulating him now. I know the club you train in , I think is the 7 star praying mantis. Your club has a good reputation, very well established.

But I know for sure there is noone that can dispute what iis taught at the Chinese Boxing Connection with me. But our system is forever changing. There are good techniques in all systems and we never downplay the significance of other systems. If another system has good techniques we adopt them if we can and give credit to what style they come and who the instructors of that system are when they are being taught to our students. We have had seminars done by other instructors at our club. We like and get along with a number of local clubs, Arashi-do ran by Sensei Gary Vig and Mike Bonde is a good club. And I am good friends with Them. More so in our younger days when Sensei gary was training at Black leopard . But I think they have an awesone system of Japanese arts. Also Shootfighting to. And Cheneys Karate studios is another good club, Sensei Lyle does tonnes to positively promote the arts in Canada, and he puts out phenomenal Students. Gil Laffanassie and Black Dragon Kempo is another great school from Calgary. Very good artists.

There is alot of dispute over the kempo though. And most of the people are talking about kempo that has been taught from simon in the last 10 or 15 years. It does not sound the same as the art taught by Simon to my instructor 25 years ago. My Sifu has been involved in the arts longer then some of the people on this site have been alive. The kempo system had a lot of time to change, so did GM Simon.

Anyways, as always this just my opinion, I am in no way trying to downplay anyone elses system or style. I love all Martial arts, and am a member of this site to gain a deeper understanding of the arts and hopefully make some friends, not enemies.

Thanks Sifu Shawn

[Sifu shawn]

It is to bad your friend had that experience. I am starting to think that the kempo my instructor learned 25 years ago is not the same as what they are teaching now. But I mean hey , I dont know I have not tried recent kempo. I cant knock it until ive tried it.
Dont knock it just cause your friend tried it.

shawn

[Fu-Pow]

What does Tai Liu mean?

[relaxed]

Sifu Shawn,

Hi, have read sites regarding both Ed bruneau and Ky Feidler and am impressed by both. Ed bruneau has an impressive history and tournament record. If I lived a little closer I would probably enjoy training there. There are many many students of Simons who got their start there and now teach at other schools. Ky Feidler also trained with Phil MacAndrews who was one of the people there when my uncle trained.

I do have some insight into what the differences are in what they taught and teach. My uncle trained at Simons in the 70's and I trained with him later. I boxed for a few years and studied some Shotokan and continued on to Temple for a while as well as studying some with friends of mine who learned Kung Fu from their family while growing up.

The Kempo is fairly intact but has been linearized or karatified to a degree for the newer students, modifications to it come in later to bring it closer to what I used to practice with my uncle. When you hang around longer you learn a bit more circular application and different forms.

"Kungrobics" is brand new and is marketed as a fitness class for people who are not necessarily lookinf to study a martial art coninually but would like to enjoy some health benefits, kind of like the short form Tai Chi you see people doing at the community centres or Cardio-kickboxing. The "Dalai Seng Shi" part is also separate from the training.

Temple business also seems to vary greatly from location to location, from what Ive read on the forums, one member here who can probably help with that is Brent Carey who runs his own studio and was a former instructor there. He also trained in other arts.

[Hau Tien]

My apologies for the mistake then... I would have sworn when I asked you that day what system the form was from, you said Choy Lay Fut...

Again... my mistake.

As for losing to my sihing... hell... none of us knew he was able to move like that... LOL... That's the best rendition of Bung Bo both myself and Lisa had ever seen.

To be clear... I am not debating the effectiveness of the methods taught by the CBC in Innisfail... I'm sure they are very effective... I just thought it odd that what I had (mistakenly) thought was a CLF form was coming from a school that didn't teach that style:)

I'll pass along your kind words to my sihing...

Thanks again!

[Sifu shawn]

Tai Liu chuan fa is a southern eagle and mantis system.

Sigung Tallbear broke the meaning of the art down like this

Tai - Master hand
Liu- eagle
Chuan fa- way of the fist ( I have seen it refered to in some shaolin systems as " fist method")

So it basically means masters hand eagle way of the fist. As with all arts as time goes by some of its history gets lost or changed. I am always looking for as much truth as I can. I sent the chinese characters for the system to a frend I have got to know in China. I hope to hear back as to what he can find out based on the characters.
sifu shawn

[Sifu shawn]

No problem on the miscommunication,
And if I had of known your Sihing was going to move like that I would have conceded before it began (lol)

Take care
sifu shawn

[Sifu shawn]

Yes Master macandrews was a teacher in Edmonton at the time. I have a picture ( actually a couple of them ), which you probably saw on Master Fiedlers site with Sifu Ed and Phil.

It was a different time back then. I know that the temple motions we do and a lot of the applications are very circular.
Hungs I, II, and III, although very short forms ,have mantis, eagle and snake motions in them. There are linear movements inn these forms to however. But were forms you learned prior to the temple motions( or what some call lohan motions).

Nice to hear from you.
sifu shawn

[couch]

How do you feel that you only learned 3 out of the 12 Kempo Forms/Modified Karate Pinion forms?

How does it make you feel that you only know 18 out of 142 temple/lohan motions? And that what you know is out of order.

You knowledge is incomplete.

Also, after leaving temple, I now train in wing chun kung-fu. Real kung-fu, does not need a kempo background, because it is complete in it's own right(style).

That's the difference in now knowing everything about one style (GM Simon)...you need somewhere to start your students...

Too bad he only knows white belt knowledge of white tiger, and a bunch of kempo. Mix it up, put a mask over it, and voila! Temple Kara...oops! kung...oops! white tig...oops again!

Your style is incomplete. Your karate style can and would be beat by ANY kung-fu practitioner...not saying that i'm dissing karate styles, but chamber is a bad place to put your other hand.

Also, if you were to learn about ch'i development, the holding if the breath in Temple Kung-Fu is wrong too, and very hard style Karate.

Anyways..picking away...

You are brainwashed. I've said it before. You can't see it from the inside...you must step out of the bubble, and you will see the truth.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Sifu shawn
...there is alot of dispute over the kempo though. And most of the people are talking about kempo that has been taught from simon in the last 10 or 15 years. It does not sound the same as the art taught by Simon to my instructor 25 years ago. My Sifu has been involved in the arts longer then some of the people on this site have been alive. The kempo system had a lot of time to change, so did GM Simon.
Thanks Sifu Shawn

I spent several years with Simon's Kung-Fu studios during the early and mid 70s. I am surprised anyone would compare then with now ?

In 1973 there were less than a handful of Sifus in Western Canada who would teach caucasians. If you wanted Chinese Kung-Fu back then the pickings were very limited indeed. So Simon's Kung-Fu flourished. As popularity and demand rose for CMA so did it become apparent that there was much money to be made from CMA (Olaf Simon was proof of that). So we witnessed the 80s phenomenom with Kung-Fu clubs sprouting (seemingly) on every street corner each claiming to be traditional, ancient and above all authentic.

Of course now you can have any flavour of CMA you want. Back then what Master Simon brought to us was the discipline of Karate mixed with the sophistication of Chinese Kung-Fu all rolled into the generic mix of Kempo. We knew it as Kung-Fu and Kempo and Karate and we learned respect for each of these disciplines -- respect which I still maintain.

Whether you like it or not folks, Master Simon broke ground for the masses for CMA in Western Canada and introduced thousands of people to Kung-Fu. I have no idea what modern TKF is about or what Master Simon's system may have morphed into by now ? I left it in 1980. Nowadays I am involved primarily in 7 Star.

Sifu Shawn I'm curious -- you mentioned Hung I, II and III what about IV ?

regards,
UM.

[Sifu shawn]

Never claimed to have the whole kempo system,
The fact that my knowledge is incomplete is okay with me. We need people like you around with absolute knowledge.
Wing chun is a good style.

Kempo is only a portion of our system. And the fact that we do not have all the forms is no big deal. We are not a kempo school. The kempo is a foundation, for me.

I dont care about Simon's TKF . If you trained there long enough to obtain all of the above stuff you mentioned before realizing you did not like it??????????? yikes
sifu shawn

[Sifu shawn]

Nice to hear from you. I was unaware that there was a hung IV. Is it a short form as well? It is late and I must go for now. But I would like to hear more from you later.
Thanks my friend,
sifu shawn

[Shadow Puppet]

Let's just say that I leave TKF after almost 10 years. Does anybody know what style would teach the "missing" temple motions and kempo forms that people on this forum keep mentioning.
Choy Lee Fut?, Tiger Claw? Shotokan karate?
I have a solid foundation and don't regret my training at TKF, but it's time to move on. Maybe I would be better off starting all over in another art like Aikido or Kendo. Can't decide.
Any opinions would be appreciated.

[firepalm]

These Simon supporters that come on here need to take a look around ... "oh Dalai Seng Shih Simon is real, he is the master here is my vague somewhat less then tangible proof..." whatever Simon is crap I've seen his stuff and have had countless numbers of authentic Chinese Martial Arts masters (here & in Asia) to compare him to. In the field of Chinese Martial Arts Simon is nothing! :eek: :mad: :D

[ursa major]

Originally posted by firepalm
... whatever Simon is crap I've seen his stuff and have had countless numbers of authentic Chinese Martial Arts masters (here & in Asia) to compare him to. In the field of Chinese Martial Arts Simon is nothing! :eek: :mad: :D

Hello Firepalm,

Not trying to argue for TKF, just find your statement interesting the 'countless numbers of authentic Chinese Martial Arts masters...' curious what makes them authentic ? Someone said so ? Their website said so ? Perhaps you said so ?

I find it interesting how we equate an authentic CMA master, qualitatively speaking ? There is no recodnized registry of CMA masters just He said, She said, They said... I've wasted many a precious year on 'authentic CMA masters'. Nowadays I prefer "a committed Kung-Fu guy..." to my mind it has more meaning.

have a nice day,
UM.

[Sifu shawn]

Sorry I was tired last night and could not finish what I started typing.
No i do not claim to have the whole kempo system. It is incorporated in our system as one of about five arts that we train. MMA.
One thing I did not realize however is that you knew how many kempo forms I have. Your Martial art ability both physical and metaphysical must be astounding. Could you please tell me the names of the kempo forms I know?

I do not want anyone to get me wrong, kempo is not the end all be all of Martial arts, not even close. It is a place to begin for some.

I like to keep my mind open to all arts. By the sounds of things you are going to now tell me, that not only do you know the whole kempo system, and everything about it, including the correct order of the lohan movements, ( which if you were there for as long as you say, and Simon is as full of **** as you say, what makes you think you were taught the correct order of anything?) etc. But now you have found an all encompassing system in wing chun?

There is no one absolute perfect system. They all have strengths and weaknessess.

Brainwashed I am not. I do not care what Simon does now, or wether TKF is good or bad. It is irrelevent. I do not even care what Simon did years ago. He always ran it as a business. But a lot of good artists came out of there years ago.

It is easy to hide behind the name of couch and say whatever you want. But I certainly do not see what your point is as far as not having the whole system. I do not train at a TKF club. We do not even call ourselves a kempo club. But kempo , as it was trained years ago, has some effective techniques to it. Any system you train , if you train it hard, will be effective. It does not mean it will work for everyone. I am truly sorry you wasted so much of your life training an art that does you no good.

Sifu Shawn

[Sifu shawn]

How are ya?
I totally agree with you in the " committed kung fu guy" thing. This whole looking for a true lineage thing is rediculous, there are lots of good instructors, and clubs that train kung fu. A true master is what?????? who says you are a master?????? I would rather learn from a deicated INstructor like the one I have then from a """"chinese Master""" . You can find fault in anything if you look hard enough.
anyhow. Nice to hear from you.
Sifu shawn

[Skarbromantis]

Where in Canada are you?

Skard1

[Shadow Puppet]

Skarbromantis,
If I wanted you or anyone else to know, I would have filled out my profile!

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Sifu shawn
I was unaware that there was a hung IV. Is it a short form as well? It is late and I must go for now. But I would like to hear more from you later.
Thanks my friend,
sifu shawn

Hello Sifu Shawn,

My memory on the Hung forms (I, II, III and IV) was that they were sophisticated and rich with technique. When I switched to Hung-Gar in the early 80s I found many common techniques which to some people might indicate that there was (according to my history) common threads between Simon's Hung forms and some of the material from the Hung-Gar curriculum.

I found the Kempo training was broad enough that when I later switched to Hung-Gar I did not have to relearn any basics, the move was seamless. I always appreciated the time I spent with Simon's Kung-Fu and certainly never regret it. I found myself having to agree with your earlier comments about Kempo making a strong foundation. Having been involved in Kempo (on and off) for 3 decades now... I am reading some of these posts wondering what is all the ruckus about Kempo about ? Well I digress.

About Hung IV, there was a 4th form of that I am certain and it was not a short form either. In fact as I remember it I think 4th was as long as 2 & 3 put together. Very vague memories here -- but I think it carried techniques similar to and moved in patterns similar to those found in Hung-Gar's Butterfly Palm. Well that was 21 years ago so don't take my word for gospel. Also, I have not practiced these forms for many, many years. Wish I had written them down for posterity sake (as is now my habit).

thx,
UM.

[neito]

"things were very different in the 70's"

-this is possibly one of the best points i've ever read on the subject of simon. were there not many schools run in that way back then? as far as i know there were many a karate schools that charged an arm and a leg. and many teachers that were of questionable credentials. the only thing is that they did'nt all survivr, but some like simon's did. i'm guessing that they just never grew out of the 70's

[Sifu shawn]

Alberta

[Nanking '28]

Now, I'm no expert (total 4 1/2 yrs maybe) but it seems to me that mixing styles such as CMA, jiu jitsu, karate, kempo, TKD etc just leads to confusion and a loose curriculum with no real historical depth. Why not study a comprehensive system of Traditional CMA for a long time like the term 'kung fu' implies. Maybe it is important to have a working knowledge of many arts for practical purposes, but if the complex chinese systems call for more time spent on basics and principles, as well as conditioning, wouldnt one think that that study was for a reason, like proving oneself to your Master or preparing the SPIRIT for more advanced philosophies of martial art??? (Not to mention the tendons, ligs, and skeleton)

Oh yeah....any school with anything called kungrobics can kiss my ass...Kung Fu (as well as other arts respectively) is for defending, controlling, deflecting, striking, maiming, and ultimately killing. It should be respected as such a thing.

Thanks.

[Nanking '28]

Oh yeah, sorry....

All respects, Shawn, I'm sure youve worked hard and could whoop my Tai Chi playin ass, but how come you're called Sifu if youre not teaching Traditional Chinese Martial Arts???

[relaxed]

Couch

Never did hear from you regarding "Physics of Kung Fu" maybe Im not PMing correctly?

[relaxed]

The Hung Forms (and yes they are Hung forms) are still a part of the TKF curriculum (at least recently). The Kempo forms a largely unchanged from the 70's - once you learn the mods later on. The Hung forms are now taught long after the Temple motions, the biggest problem being it is only after a lengthy period and if your instructor has been around long enough that he knows them.

Jeez guys - after the mount of blending and alteration that has occured in the "traditional" CMA's as well as others over just the past century youre still caught up in all these arguments over lineage and blending with other arts. I don't get it. Ive met and trained with people from many many arts and forms, and rarely have I ever met someone who if they are dedicated to their study is a bad martial artist. I have traded info with people and found value in most.

These arguments are largely silly and pointless and create an adverse environment on a Forum that for the large part is one of the best Ive seen.

The people here are usually helpful and full of info for those that ask, its disappointing to see the attacks.


Just my opinions.

Mike

[triad]

Hi Relaxed,
Check Vince Peppers sight www.kwandai.com for info on the Physics of kung Fu

[Sifu shawn]

That is a good question. I have been involved in the arts for a number of years and am still just a student to. Now The system that I train was originally a combination of two major systems one being kempo, the other Tai Liu Chuan Fa. We were a very traditional school back in the 1980's. The Tai liu system calls its instructors Sifu. And that is where the Sifu part comes from. As time went on we felt (and this was our opinion only by now means the gospel or a slam against traditional artist or clubs) that our traditional systems lacked in some areas. Especially in the groundfighting department. Hence my instructor started to train Jiu jitsu more vigourously. He has trained under Gene Lebelle. Ark Y Wong, Eric Lee and other artists of great stature. The 70's was a time of change in the arts, more and more people were being allowed to train ( caucasions in particular) and the one thing My Sifu noticed was that all these artists trained different systems, and they all had good techniques, some ideas about attack and defence being different, but that is okay . Just becasue something is different does not make it wrong. So as Time went on we started entering more and more competitions and found that some traditional chinese techniques, that are effective on the street, do not work well in point fighting. So we watched , trained and learned and modified so we also had a good point fighting system. Arashi-do, Cheneys studios, eastside Taekwondo, black dragon, all of these guys have exellent tournament fighters to. But what we found is that when we started fighting in Kickboxing cards, the point fighting tactics did not always work because it is continuous. And the learning process went on, and continues to this day. The Chinese Boxing Connection was originally traditional chinese arts, hence the sifu. But now incorporates, japanese, phillipino, western(boxing), any thing that we feel is effective, practical and fun, but we keep the roots of our system, traditional, alive, and well.

sifu shawn

[Sifu shawn]

10-4, amen, could not have said it better myself.

sifu shawn

[firepalm]

Re authentic - say you went to a doctor (or a martial arts / KF teacher), he had posted on his office wall graduate of Harvard (like a martial arts teacher with claims of learning @ Shaolin). To yourself & the community at large you believe this doctor knows his trade as he comes from a recognized institute of training (recognized as such for the standards that it upholds, not unlike say a Shaolin temple). When in fact you learned to the contrary that this doctor was in fact not graduated from Harvard, would you still say that he is a legit doctor cause he knows some stuff, was able to remain in business for a length of time, has treated a lot of people? When shown direct evidence that Simon is not a legit KF practitioner, TKF supporters will often come back with vague counters such as these aforementioned arguments.

As to your statements "curious what makes them authentic ? Someone said so ? Their website said so ? Perhaps you said so ?" & "There is no recodnized registry of CMA masters just He said, She said, They said..."

There are in fact governing long established associations for Chinese Martial Arts for example in Hong Kong there is the Hong Kong Chinese Martial Arts Federation & the Hong Kong Wushu Union. In China you have the Chinese Wushu Association & the Beijing Wushu Research Association both based in Beijing, China(note Wushu is in reference not only to Modern Wushu but rather Chinese martial arts as a whole), their website includes registry of Masters from all over China & their ranking within the Association. For styles with a long standing history you have organizations such as the Chan Heung Memorial Association (for Choi Lee Fut) in Hong Kong & Hung Sheng Federation (CLF) in Singapore. Yong Nian Taiji Federation in China. Ving Tsun Athletic Ass'n in Hong Kong. Within Canada you have the goverment recognized Canadian Confederation of Chinese Wushu Organizations or the CCWO (note Wushu is in reference not only to Modern Wushu but rather Chinese martial arts as a whole) which is comprised of four sub organizations (all comprised of Chinese style instructors with verifiable 'non vague' backgrounds). These are only just a few, there are in fact more some overseeing Chinese martial arts as a whole within their respective countries or their respective systems on a larger international scale. Many of these associations provide registries for Chinese martial arts instructors.

There are in fact about a hundred and twenty officially recognized styles per the Beijing Wushu Research Association. Official government systematic research on all the various systems within China was started back in the seventies.

Now there are of course varying degrees of quality & ability amongst even teachers from verfiable Chinese martial arts backgrounds as with any professional from any trade. Further the 'self defence' effectiveness of many of these systems could be argued but that is not the issue in the Temple Kung Fu argument, at least for myself, it is a matter of misrepresentation as with a doctor that falsely claimed his credentials. What Simon offers is not Chinese martial arts and as such is a misrepresentation when he says Kung Fu & puts out vague claims of learning @ Shaolin. Personally if he said Kenpo, Karate or martial arts or whatever I wouldn't be here & wouldn't much give a toss! Unfortunately here in the west although CMA has been around a while the general public still does not have a good understanding of the art yet and thus charlatans like Simon are able to do what they do for so long.

In short there are certainly recognised authentic CMA systems and even some governing CMA bodies (not just because I said so), Simon however is not a teacher of any recognised system nor a member of any long standing organization. Nor does he have any CMA training that can be substantiated.

Please don't take my comments as a personal attack or comment on your (or anyone elses') abilities as a martial artist, having been involved with the CMA for most of my life and having spent more then half of martial arts time in Asia I feel very strongly about how the Chinese martial arts are portrayed.

Have a good day.
:cool:

[Sifu shawn]

All very well,
I think the point is however that just because someone is not a member of a so called organization does not make them a poor Martial artist. My Sifu also spent a lot of years training in the orient while working on off shore drilling rigs. Many such organizations are just that, organizations. And many of the times you are recognized through such an organization because your Instructor belongs to it. The people who are at the head of these organizations have never even met those that are " certified" within their organization. Many of the world best martial artists are not recognized by any organization. Or if they are there rankings are only honorary ones.
I do not wish for anyone to think that I defend Simon against the accusations of how he runs his business. How he operates and how people decide to deal with that is between the individual and TKF. However I know who has came out of Simons in the past (as in 20-30 years ago). When Simon was in his prime he was tough. His students, that went on to become instructors were tough. Simon did not get as much recognition as he did back in the 60's and 70's because he and his students were candy asses. And by recognition I do not mean as a member of any organization. Ed Parker and Simon worked together for a while. Parker is a world reknowned artist, body guard for Elvis presley. He would not have got involved with a wanna be artist. But perhaps a hunger for money, or whatever it was caused them to part paths. No none was there so noone knows what happened. So if Simon is a fraud , that would mean that Parker would not have been able to tell his ass from a whole in the grand and we know that is not the case. It does not take long for an experienced artist to figure out if another person is experienced or full of ****. Parker got together with Simon for good reasons. It just did not work out. Simon is European. Have you ever tried to work with a European for any length of time, I had a boss for 5 years who was european, in construction. He knew what he was doing. A very good trades man. But he was impossible to work with. Could never make up his mind, things were always changing, he got on everyones nerves. But there was nooone who could do a better job then him.

There is no way that people are going to agree on this issue about Simon. I know it would be nice if everything was all on paper and every artist was a member of an organization and everything about an arts history was all in perfectly kept records. But that is not possible. Since so much of the history of shaolin has been destroyed by its own government who knows what is true there and what is not. Why not dispute the histories of Shaolin. I dont want to. Its Mysterious, uncertain almost romantic. Think of what is said about the temples, the new recruits would be there as servants for the longest time, feeding the senior monks or masters, keeping the monastary clean, etc. They labored and when the Master thought that it was the right time for u to learn the arts that is when your training began. So the legends are romantic, and noone says it is stupid. Why is it that people hand down these legends by word of mouth and it is okay. What would you say if you went to TKF (or any club) and they had you mopping, or cooking for them, cleaning for Simon or another teacher. You would probably leave.
Sifu shawn

[relaxed]

Triad
Thanx
:D

Firepalm
Excellent point, my background is in engineering so the parallel of the professional organization is not lost on me.
You can check the length of time a lot of the certification organizations and others have been around, and although many have been around a long time (over 100 years lets say) many have been created in the last 50 years and 20 or 10 in some cases. You can't have an organization that is older than the style it represents and in the PRC you couldn't have any at all (independantly) until recently. Hong Kong has long been a haven for great martial artists but please don't think for a minute that it isn't a haven for schucksters as well.
:)

Sifu Shawn
Your generalization about european work ethic and perfectionistic temperment has been experienced by many others Im sure.

Ive said it before but during my time at TKF I never had anyone tell me Simon was a Shaolin priest, etc etc, but there are several others on this board who have. I think it may largely boil down to the youth and/or attitude of the instructor and the studio location.
I have heard other stories from other students from different schools as well, things like "my sifu can stop bullets with his mind". :rolleyes:

Typical youthful pride.

Got to get back to work.

Have a good weekend all.

Mike

[neito]

Arashi Do, do you live in edmonton?

[Hau Tien]

I'm sure Shawn doesn't live in Edmonton, since his school is in Innisfail.

There are Arashi Do schools around central Alberta... I know I've fought a few of their guys at various tournaments here in Red Deer...

[ursa major]

Originally posted by firepalm
Re authentic kung-fu"

...

Hello Firepalm,

Thx for the comments and NO I do not take a well articulated commentary based upon fact that does not target my person -- as a personal attack.

I appreciate your medical example it is a good analogy for why we need accountability within the MA. I also warmly greet your facts outlining the various CMA associations, bodies and organizations and thank-you for the reminder.

The heart of what I was trying to get at and so poorly expressed was this -- that which constitutes 'Authentic Kung-Fu' in North America is bedeviled by our demanding regression logic. For instance, "The CCWO says so-and-so is recodnized as authentic..." then who authenticates the CCWO ? Which regresses to another body and who authenticates that body ? If you listen to all the claims to authenticity the 'common root' argument makes more and more sense. As one regresses in geography and time eventually we have a series of CMA mythical individuals or histories that are exceptionally difficult to pin down fact-wise. These tend to blur until they all look the same.

I'll give an example. I have been involved to varying degrees in Traditional Hung-Gar since 1982. I have had it drilled into my brain that Hung-Gar is "Traditional" and the "Real Thing" where as Kempo (which I have been involved since 1974) has been characterized by my Hung-Gar Sifu as being a 'hybrid' system and not traditional therefore undesirable or less valuable.

But when I regressively investigated Hung-Gar (which I still have a great passion for) I found that it was derived from a number of independent systems whose proficiencies and strengths were amalgamated into one system, Hung-Gar. Just like Kempo.

So Traditional Hung-Gar is a 'hybrid' system after all. In this context the primary difference between it and Kempo is the number of years each has been in existence. Well older/younger does not always equate to tried and true.

I have also developed a passion for Traditional Authentic 7 Star and found it to be comprised of several subsystems as well, Monkey, Black Tiger, Praying mantis, etc. So it too is a 'hybrid', or a bringing together of disparate methods under one umbrella as-it-were.

I have been practicing MA since 1974 and have come to realize that MA is a shopping trip in which we as martial artists all participate. In so many ways we each take what we like from various systems and persons and leave the rest. To my mind and insofar as it reflects results and not intent, that makes us all 'hybrid' artists to one extent or another.

I believe that the 'Traditional' systems are over time doomed to die out if they refuse to reach outside of their systems for new material with which to grow and adapt. I call it a 'shopping trip' which may offend the sensibilities of some.

But I ask you, if you see a new technique as is sometimes the case, that electrifies you with a new insight to an old problem, do you just leave it saying "Master won't like that...." or "...it is not traditional enough to fit in our system ?". Not me, I'll find a way to graft it into my curriculum -- I owe it to myself and my students.

I love CMA and always have. I don't normally get caught up in 'Authentic' this or that debates I think the histories become too vague once you regress beyond a certain point and that is the gist of what I was posting earlier. Besides, these debates distract me from my true passion.

Firepalm I do appreciate and respect what the various CMA bodies and associations are trying to accomplish and applaud them. Hopefully they will set the bar higher in terms of standards while exposing and continuing to expose charlatans in our midst.

Well it is late and I am tired and I hope this post makes some sense.

thx,
UM.

[Skarbromantis]

Originally posted by Shadow Puppet
Skarbromantis,
If I wanted you or anyone else to know, I would have filled out my profile!

No prob, I was going to offer you some places you could check thats all.

Skard1

[jun_erh]

Who the **** cares about Temple Kung Fu? You're trying to impress people with "kempo" "sport karate" "ed parker"? Are you high dude?

[Sifu shawn]

NOt Edmonton

There are Arashi do schools all over. Edmonton , Calgary,
Rocky Mountain house, Red Deer. They are every where, and thats because they are a good club.
Shawn

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by ursa major


Hello Firepalm,

Thx for the comments and NO I do not take a well articulated commentary based upon fact that does not target my person -- as a personal attack.

I appreciate your medical example it is a good analogy for why we need accountability within the MA. I also warmly greet your facts outlining the various CMA associations, bodies and organizations and thank-you for the reminder.

The heart of what I was trying to get at and so poorly expressed was this -- that which constitutes 'Authentic Kung-Fu' in North America is bedeviled by our demanding regression logic. For instance, "The CCWO says so-and-so is recodnized as authentic..." then who authenticates the CCWO ? Which regresses to another body and who authenticates that body ? If you listen to all the claims to authenticity the 'common root' argument makes more and more sense. As one regresses in geography and time eventually we have a series of CMA mythical individuals or histories that are exceptionally difficult to pin down fact-wise. These tend to blur until they all look the same.

I'll give an example. I have been involved to varying degrees in Traditional Hung-Gar since 1982. I have had it drilled into my brain that Hung-Gar is "Traditional" and the "Real Thing" where as Kempo (which I have been involved since 1974) has been characterized by my Hung-Gar Sifu as being a 'hybrid' system and not traditional therefore undesirable or less valuable.

But when I regressively investigated Hung-Gar (which I still have a great passion for) I found that it was derived from a number of independent systems whose proficiencies and strengths were amalgamated into one system, Hung-Gar. Just like Kempo.

So Traditional Hung-Gar is a 'hybrid' system after all. In this context the primary difference between it and Kempo is the number of years each has been in existence. Well older/younger does not always equate to tried and true.

I have also developed a passion for Traditional Authentic 7 Star and found it to be comprised of several subsystems as well, Monkey, Black Tiger, Praying mantis, etc. So it too is a 'hybrid', or a bringing together of disparate methods under one umbrella as-it-were.

I have been practicing MA since 1974 and have come to realize that MA is a shopping trip in which we as martial artists all participate. In so many ways we each take what we like from various systems and persons and leave the rest. To my mind and insofar as it reflects results and not intent, that makes us all 'hybrid' artists to one extent or another.

I believe that the 'Traditional' systems are over time doomed to die out if they refuse to reach outside of their systems for new material with which to grow and adapt. I call it a 'shopping trip' which may offend the sensibilities of some.

But I ask you, if you see a new technique as is sometimes the case, that electrifies you with a new insight to an old problem, do you just leave it saying "Master won't like that...." or "...it is not traditional enough to fit in our system ?". Not me, I'll find a way to graft it into my curriculum -- I owe it to myself and my students.

I love CMA and always have. I don't normally get caught up in 'Authentic' this or that debates I think the histories become too vague once you regress beyond a certain point and that is the gist of what I was posting earlier. Besides, these debates distract me from my true passion.

Firepalm I do appreciate and respect what the various CMA bodies and associations are trying to accomplish and applaud them. Hopefully they will set the bar higher in terms of standards while exposing and continuing to expose charlatans in our midst.

Well it is late and I am tired and I hope this post makes some sense.

thx,
UM.

Very true but Kempo is a mix between Chinese martial arts and Japanese martial arts and traditionalists like it to be Chinese only.

[Royal Dragon]

Nothing I hate more than somene selling one art, and then teaching a completely different one, especially if it's completely unrealated.

If someone teaches a long standing recognised Kung Fu style, and calls it Authentic, I think we wll all agree that it is.

If someone teaches a long standing recognised Kempo style, and calls it Authentic, I think we would all agree that it is.

But when someone teaches Kempo, and "CAllS" it Kung Fu, that is NOT authentic, and no one who knows better would say it is.

Sounds to me Like Simon is a Kempo guy trying to B u l l s h i t the public into thinking he's teaching Kung Fu because it sells better in his demographic, when he is not.

What he teaches is NOT Authentic Kung Fu, it is Kempo being passed off as Kung Fu, and THAT is Fradulant. THAT is why so many are angry with him.