7* 14 Road Tan Tui #9

[mantis108]

Tainan Mantis commented about this on the other thread. I would like to further address this.

First off, the Chinese character used is Guan (Stick or staff). So stick/staff (adjective) hand is the name of the technique moreover the translation stick (verb) is also valid IMHO. I will futher explan this.

"The 9th exercise you refer to is called "stick" hand. As in the 7th rigid technique from the 8 rigid 12 flexible. "

The exponent of this technique is like whirling a stick/staff with the left hand being the anchor hand and the right hand being the leverage/pivot hand). I believe 7*'s coined this technique "staff hand" as the motion of the 2 hands is remarkably resemble whirling a staff - The filing punch [re: tiao with a staff] or in some cases downward backfist [re: pi with a staff] and the hanging & straight punch [re: ti or tang with a staff ]. Except when this translated into empty hand strike the front hand becomes a strike.

"The Stick technique is done by "B"

A: right stance-right low straight punch

B: right stance-left sealing hand(pushing down type block/grab)-
right inverted straight punch(your filing punch)

A:right high block(bi sho/closing hand)

B:left lifting hand-to lift A's high block even higher so it can't go down,
right low straight punch"

This example is taking the inside gate while I think the outside gate works well too. As seen in this example, B's sealing hand or rather binding/tiding hand is crucial to the technique as it is the "anchor" and controls the right side of the opponent. It is a form of trapping IMHO. However, it is not wrong to sort of chop down with the sealing hand. But then you are not tied/binded to your opponent niether. ;) So not really binding but still whirling a staff [re: stylistic difference]

"Last year I opened on a thread on this specific technique, stick, because in several cases different characters were used which completely changed the meaning.

It seems that there is a difference in different schools on what this technique is.
The above method follows my teacher, Shr Zhengzhong's, teaching as well as WHF and Luo Guangyu's 14 roads."

I remember Sifu Carl Albright's explanation as well on this matter. His view is that the attack is continuous and the hand doesn't retrack. IMHO, that is part of this technique is about. Using the whirling staff hand analogy, you don't pull/chamber your front/pivoting hand like the way you would in empty hand form while using a staff. So the 7* explanation seems to be using the whirling staff motion in describing an aggressive attack with a powerful right hand [re: rapid firing of the hands] being fast and hard. So staff hand being one of the 8 hard is reasonable.

"On looking at the older manuscripts in Ilya Profatilov's collection, as well as some other related sources, the word "bind" is used.
They both sound similar, but "stick" and "bind" have different implications. "

The sound of binding/tiding and Stick/staff is quite similar. Binding in this case is the left hand that "ties" to the right hand (although in your example the grab might have been broken temporarily). I think Binding is using one hand to restrain one [entire] side the opponent. That is to say using one hand to manipulate the weight shifting of the foe while attack fast and hard with the other hand. You will indeed need to have a strong and tigh grip with the grab so that you are tied to your opponent [re: giving you more of a listening to his weight shifting - internal so to speak].

It would seem that all schools are indeed descibing the same technique via different approaches.

In my mind, we have gone throught 3 different ways of PM Trapping techniqus - Sealing, Stealing and Binding.

"Anyway, the stick method works very well and is comprised in many styles of MA."

Agreed totally. :)

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[Hau Tien]

Odd... this doesn't sound like #9 in Sap Sei Lo to me... the way I was taught (Under Sifu Mike Purnell of Kwok Choi Chui lineage), #9 contains something we refer to as a "Monkey Punch".

Let's see if I can explain it in my own words:

1) Step from 7* stance to "invisible punch" (chinese uppercut) with left hand
2) Withdraw the left hand with a sliding block of the right along the left arm
3) Low horse stance, with left hand punching, torso bent over low, right hand guarding face
4) Straight to right leg shin kick/right invisible punch
5) Withdraw the right hand via sliding block with the left hand
6) "stomp" into a low horse stance, right hand low punch, left hand guarding face.

Hope that made some sense... takes much more time to read/type it than it does to do it:)

Does that sound familiar to anyone? Or was tghat what was said above and I am just not familiar with that terminology?

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Hau Tien
Odd... this doesn't sound like #9 in Sap Sei Lo to me... the way I was taught (Under Sifu Mike Purnell of Kwok Choi Chui lineage), #9 contains something we refer to as a "Monkey Punch".

Let's see if I can explain it in my own words:

1) Step from 7* stance to "invisible punch" (chinese uppercut) with left hand
2) Withdraw the left hand with a sliding block of the right along the left arm
3) Low horse stance, with left hand punching, torso bent over low, right hand guarding face
4) Straight to right leg shin kick/right invisible punch
5) Withdraw the right hand via sliding block with the left hand
6) "stomp" into a low horse stance, right hand low punch, left hand guarding face.


From the 7* stance to "invisible punch", do you just through the punch, or is there some kind of block/parry before throwing the uppercut? Otherwise, it sounds the same to me.

[Tainan Mantis]

Your monkey punch is indeed stick hand or gun hand(rhymes with win).

It is written this way in a recent 14 road book by the WHF school(private circulation only).
In the 1930 book on the Jing Wu curriculum, where Luo Guangyu taught, it is called kun hand, also rhymes with win. Very similar pronunciation, but here the meaning is to bind or to tie up.
On closer examination and comparison of these two texts it seems that the Jing Wu version chose several of the characters by sound alone without much regard to meaning.
Why it is that way we can only speculate.

Why your teacher calls it monkey punch I don't know.
In WHF's listing of 29 punches as well as a similar text by Wei Hsiaotang of 8 Step PM there is no such punch.
In fact I have never come across such a punch in any PM text I have read, although I haven't read them all so I will keep my eyes open.

Same goes for the invisible punch which others on this board have translated as filing punch. Personally I like the term I heard from Carl Albright, inverted straight punch, which also describes the way it appears to me.

It would be nice to call it tso punch except it is hard to agree on this as there are different pronunciations in HK and Shandong.

[Hau Tien]

Mantisben: Yup... there is a block before the invisible punch...

Seems like the terminology differs, but the techniques are the same:) Very cool...

I'd love to see other schools perform Sap Sei Lo... or Dar Gong (My romanization is likely horrible there)... I've seen many do Bung Bo, but never any others... if you guys know where I might find video of others doing it (online), I'd be real appreciative..

Thanks!

[mantisben]

Jon Funk has some videos on 7*PM Forms, although I don't know if he has one that you are looking for.
http://www.mantiskungfu.com

I recently discovered a web-site called http://www.teammantis.com and they have videos of their practictioners doing some really nice forms: Tiger and Swallow Boxing (1st set) among many others.

Check it out!

[Tainan Mantis]

Your Team Mantis link shows Paul Sun(no relation to the 8 Step teacher) as the head instructor.
He lists his PM teacher as my teacher Shr Zhengzhong.
I asked my teacher about this and he blew out a load of unprintable explitives.
Paul Sun's PM was not taught to him by Shr Zhengzhong.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Your Team Mantis link shows Paul Sun(no relation to the 8 Step teacher) as the head instructor.
He lists his PM teacher as my teacher Shr Zhengzhong.
I asked my teacher about this and he blew out a load of unprintable explitives.
Paul Sun's PM was not taught to him by Shr Zhengzhong.

To list that someone was your teacher, but they weren't sounds like a lie. I'd rather not think that Paul Sun was a liar. Why would he lie about who taught him PM? Maybe there is a typo or a misprint in there some where. I didn't check the lineage section of www.teammantis.com I went straight to the multimedia section and downloaded the demonstration of the forms.

The way the student did the forms, looked really nice. I recognized the movements as PM, but the tempos used when executing the movements were different. It was a real treat for me.

[mantis108]

First off thanks all for the input. :)

Mantisben,

Thanks for the link.


While I applaud the effort put forth by Teammantis, I can't help but wonder would the technique page kind of short changed themselves?

I am impressed with their willingness to share one of their conditioning routines althought I am not sure which style of Manits it came from nor is it a tradition or modern routine. Anyway it's nice. The "downside" to that drill is that the other fellow won't get as much benefit in doing this drill. It might be better serve to have wooden dummy to train this. I suppose if there isn't a woodne dummy available then this drill would have to be it. :)

The 8 Basic Stances are familiar. I have seen these perform by Shrfu Shr on a Taiwan TV show and shown by Tainan Mantis in person. Altought I have to say the Yu Huan Bu seems different. It looks like the leg position is not quite the Ponglai style. Since there is an application behind the Yu Huan Bu, I am not inclined to think that this difference is insignificant. Maybe there are other influences that they wanted to it to show through.

The Tanglang Shou applications, IMHO, might short changed them. Frankly, it reminded me of Dr Yang Jwai Ming's (sp?) Shaolin Long Fist book. I suppose the intented audiences are the general public and the protential students. I was hoping for more indepth look into the form. On the other hand, I might be jaded by one step sparring set ups. Just that I think it would be refreshing to see real combination of applications.

All in all, it's good to see an effort to promote Tanglangquan regardless of style.

Mantis108

[mantisben]

Originally posted by mantis108

While I applaud the effort put forth by Teammantis, I can't help but wonder would the technique page kind of short changed themselves?


What about the Multimedia link to the RealVideo demonstrations of the Praying Mantis Forms? They were real joy (for me) to watch.


I am impressed with their willingness to share one of their conditioning routines althought I am not sure which style of Manits it came from nor is it a tradition or modern routine. Anyway it's nice. The "downside" to that drill is that the other fellow won't get as much benefit in doing this drill. It might be better serve to have wooden dummy to train this. I suppose if there isn't a woodne dummy available then this drill would have to be it. :)

I didn't know PM had specific conditioning exercies, Traditional or Modern. I know the "Striking 3 Stars" forearm exercise, but I didn't think that was specific to PM. I've always felt that the best conditioning exercise is one that conditions without doing permanent damage to whatever part of the body you are conditioning.

The 8 Basic Stances are familiar. I have seen these perform by Shrfu Shr on a Taiwan TV show and shown by Tainan Mantis in person. Altought I have to say the Yu Huan Bu seems different. It looks like the leg position is not quite the Ponglai style. Since there is an application behind the Yu Huan Bu, I am not inclined to think that this difference is insignificant. Maybe there are other influences that they wanted to it to show through.

I've always called Yu Huan Bu the "Kneeling Stance". However, I've seen people do the Yu Huan Bu and it doesn't look like they're kneeling at all, but it looks as if they're squatting. I don't know which way is right or wrong either way. I would like to see a picture of what you consider to be the correct Yu Huan Bu.

The Tanglang Shou applications, IMHO, might short changed them. Frankly, it reminded me of Dr Yang Jwai Ming's (sp?) Shaolin Long Fist book. I suppose the intented audiences are the general public and the protential students. I was hoping for more indepth look into the form. On the other hand, I might be jaded by one step sparring set ups. Just that I think it would be refreshing to see real combination of applications.


The Shaolin Long Fist book's applications I feel didn't show how the movements could be applied in real fighting. However, I absolutely do not doubt that Dr. Yang or any one of his students could skillfully apply the techniques in real life. The same goes for the students demonstrating the Tang Lang Shou applications. I don't doubt that they could apply the techniques in real life.

All in all, it's good to see an effort to promote Tanglangquan regardless of style.


I thank you very much for your input Mantis108. Everytime I see that you have a post in this forum, I'm eager to read what you have to say.

MUCH RESPECT TO YOU!

[Hau Tien]

Hrm... I don't mean to offend anyone at all... but I just viewed the Team Mantis videos there... and was kinda disappointed...

The techniques shown are ok... but where is the "intent" in the movement? I didn't feel that the people performing the forms were actually doing anything more than going through the movements...

I dunno... could just be me... I've seen so many Bung Bo videos, and they seem to fall short of "impressive" compared to what I've seen one of my sihings do for the form.

Maybe I'm just being too picky:) However, the site is well put together and as has been stated, I'm all for promoting the Mantis style... especially 7 * :)

Again... no offense or disrespect intended at all... just something I noticed as I watched the videos...

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Hau Tien
Hrm... I don't mean to offend anyone at all... but I just viewed the Team Mantis videos there... and was kinda disappointed...

The techniques shown are ok... but where is the "intent" in the movement? I didn't feel that the people performing the forms were actually doing anything more than going through the movements...

I dunno... could just be me...

Maybe it is just you Hau Tien. Maybe you just know and understand the forms better than them. Possibly you can perform the forms with a greater understanding than them.

Maybe I don't know a well executed form from a poorly executed form. This is *highly* likely.

Still, I liked watching the forms. The different timing and tempos they used. In some cases, different movements. I've never seen the "Tiger and Swallow Boxing" PM form, until I saw it on the Team Mantis website. Whether it was 7*, Tai-Chi, 8 Step, or 6 Harmonies, or Plum Blossom, I got excited! Someone who knows this form might say "those movements are all wrong...". I know absolutely nothing about it. I did recognize the movements a PM, though.

To be totally honest, I'm just desperate to see PM forms performed. I'm deperate to learn the methods behind the movements, the applications behind the combinations, and the theories behind the techniques. I can't get enough. I'm a groupie...

As for offending anyone, don't think about it. I appreciate your feedback whether positive, negative, or neutral.:D

Thank you for responding to the thread!

[Hau Tien]

OH, definitely! I always enjoy seeing videos of forms online :) Especially PM ones:)

Don't get me wrong there... I was just commenting on them from my own standpoint, which may or may not be correct at all:)

[mantis108]

First off, thank you whole heartedly for the support. Really appreciate it. You made my day! :D

What about the Multimedia link to the RealVideo demonstrations of the Praying Mantis Forms? They were real joy (for me) to watch.

Well, last time I downloaded the Real Player Video, it works quite poorly. I hope they will consider a quicktime format in the future. So without seeing their clips, I can't comment on that.

I didn't know PM had specific conditioning exercies, Traditional or Modern. I know the "Striking 3 Stars" forearm exercise, but I didn't think that was specific to PM. I've always felt that the best conditioning exercise is one that conditions without doing permanent damage to whatever part of the body you are conditioning.

The 3 stars exercise that seems to be generic to CMA is just one of the many drills that belongs to a group of exercises know as Kao Da. Personally, I believe Kao Da is one of the 18 styles listed in the "Discourse of Short strike" (otherwise know as 18 styles poem). So it is pretty "traditional" in PM. At least as far back as 1700s. While many of the Kao Da is non PM specific, there are couple of Diu Sao drills in the CCK TCPM Kao Da [I think that's as PM as it can get ;) ] There are others traditional stuff usually as 2 men drills in PM as well. If precaution and after care are taken, injury can be avoided.

I've always called Yu Huan Bu the "Kneeling Stance". However, I've seen people do the Yu Huan Bu and it doesn't look like they're kneeling at all, but it looks as if they're squatting. I don't know which way is right or wrong either way. I would like to see a picture of what you consider to be the correct Yu Huan Bu.

Technically, Yu Huan Bu is a footwork more so than a stancework. We have a discussion featuring Sifu Profatilov's view on the matter on my forum before. I will post a link if you are interested. The kind of squatting type is traditionally call Xiaoshi (minor stance) in Sifu Profatilov's lineage. It is IMHO more of a stylistic difference than a right or wrong question. However , we must be clear of the applications that comes with them.

The Shaolin Long Fist book's applications I feel didn't show how the movements could be applied in real fighting. However, I absolutely do not doubt that Dr. Yang or any one of his students could skillfully apply the techniques in real life. The same goes for the students demonstrating the Tang Lang Shou applications. I don't doubt that they could apply the techniques in real life.

I hear you and I agreed.

I thank you very much for your input Mantis108. Everytime I see that you have a post in this forum, I'm eager to read what you have to say.

Thank you for the support. It is really encouraging for me. Really appreciate it. I enjoy your input as well and thank you for the link. :)

MUCH RESPECT TO YOU!

and Much Respect to you too, my friend. Thanks. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[mantisben]

Originally posted by mantis108

Well, last time I downloaded the Real Player Video, it works quite poorly. I hope they will consider a quicktime format in the future. So without seeing their clips, I can't comment on that.

The quality of the clips on their web-site is not good at all. Some of the forms are in MPG and Windows Media format, though. I don't know what the quality of those formats will be.

The 3 stars exercise that seems to be generic to CMA is just one of the many drills that belongs to a group of exercises know as Kao Da. Personally, I believe Kao Da is one of the 18 styles listed in the "Discourse of Short strike" (otherwise know as 18 styles poem).

If Kao Da is an exercise, wouldn't that disqualify it as one of the 18 *fighting* styles that made up the PM System?

Technically, Yu Huan Bu is a footwork more so than a stancework. We have a discussion featuring Sifu Profatilov's view on the matter on my forum before. I will post a link if you are interested.

I'm interested! I did see a picture of Yu Han Bu in the "Gallery" link of www.mantisboxing.com
Where is Yu Huan Bu as footwork performed in a PM form?

However , we must be clear of the applications that comes with them.

I agree totally.

Thank you again for sharing!

[mantis108]

Hi Mantisben,

The quality of the clips on their web-site is not good at all. Some of the forms are in MPG and Windows Media format, though. I don't know what the quality of those formats will be.

I was able to download the MPG clips. They are fine in quality. They are quite interesting. The TouTao form seems to be 7* BYTT Er Lu (2nd routine) though. Not Tanglang TouTao.

If Kao Da is an exercise, wouldn't that disqualify it as one of the 18 *fighting* styles that made up the PM System?

Kao Da, IMHO, is a fighting/training method that somehow been reduced to an exercise in most CMA schools. It has all four categories of techniques [re: Da Ti Na Shuai]. It basically is rudimentry Kung Fu. Now, Boxing has basically 4 punching techniques. It is nontheless a widely recognized effective "style". The content of Kao Da has way more sophisticate techniques than 4 basic punches. The fact that Kao Da as a close quater combat methodology that doesn't use long form is similar in case with Boxing. If one can training Boxing to be effective fighting style, I don't see why it can't be done with Kao Da. Having said that Kao Da is crude and might not be elegant nor stylish but training properly it is just as effective.

Here's a link to Kao Da discussion

Kao Da Method (http://forums.delphiforums.com/Taijimantis/messages?msg=317.1)

I'm interested! I did see a picture of Yu Han Bu in the "Gallery" link of mantisboxing.com
Where is Yu Huan Bu as footwork performed in a PM form?

Here's the link to the Yu Huan Bu discussion

Yu Huan Bu (http://forums.delphiforums.com/Taijimantis/messages?msg=255.1)

Quite a few forms has it so you will have to look into the forms that are in your lineage.

"Thank you again for sharing!"

You are most welcome, my friend.

Regards

Mantis108

[mantisben]

Kao Da, IMHO, is a fighting/training method that somehow been reduced to an exercise in most CMA schools.
Maybe the fighting aspect of kao da was kept a secret and only the training aspect of it was taught. It is widely known that lots of Martial Arts methods and techniques died with the masters who knew them.


Kao Da Method (http://forums.delphiforums.com/Taijimantis/messages?msg=317.1)

Excellent discussion! I'll never look at the "Striking 3 stars" exercise the same again.


Here's the link to the Yu Huan Bu discussion

Yu Huan Bu (http://forums.delphiforums.com/Taijimantis/messages?msg=255.1)

This thread was THE BOMB! I got soo excited by the discussion, that at one point, I literally jumped from my chair and hollered!

Quite a few forms has it so you will have to look into the forms that are in your lineage.

Many forms I know have Yu Huan Bu. My lineage under WHF, although I currently attend a school that is under the CCM lineage.

Once again, you have left me in awe at your knowledge of Praying Mantis, and the depth of the techniques within Praying Mantis Kung Fu!

Keep doin what ya doin!!!

Thank You!

[mantis108]

Hi Mantisben,

Thank you, thank you, and thank you. :D There are really lots more knowledgeable people here and elsewhere than me. I am only more enjoy in sharing what little that I know and hope to learn more via the forum.

Glad you enjoy the discussions. One thing of note is that Kao Da is quite basic Kung Fu and is more concern in building attributes of a fighter then being aesthetically pleasing. In some style such CCK TCPM, which I study, quite a few of the Kao Da techniques are trained via different avenue. In our case, some of them are replaced by Taizu Duan Da (Sau Fa) which is IMHO more refined.

Regards

Mantis108

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Your Team Mantis link shows Paul Sun(no relation to the 8 Step teacher) as the head instructor.
He lists his PM teacher as my teacher Shr Zhengzhong.
I asked my teacher about this and he blew out a load of unprintable explitives.
Paul Sun's PM was not taught to him by Shr Zhengzhong.

Tainan Mantis this is a difficult post to read. On the one hand we have what appears to be a perfectly legitimate MA organization which claims lineage through your teacher -- which teacher in turn rejects their claim to his lineage. How did this happen ? I find this to be a disturbing contradiction and having shared numerous posts with you I have no reason to suspect the authenticity of your remarks. I respect you would not post them unless you meant it.

I would very much appreciate if you could you provide any explanation for this contradiction by way of history or insights ? Perhaps you can discuss your teacher's position on what has happened here ?

thx in advance,
UM.

[ursa major]

I was on the TeamMantis website, curious after reading the Tainan Mantis post where his teacher rejects Paul Sun & TeamMantis. I wondered what they (TeamMantis) were about ?

From what I could see this Paul Sun has very strong form and I could readily identify the techniques in many of the forms from a from a 7 Star perspective. But their Steals Peach, Crushing Step and 1st Route are very different from mine. I doubt if we share 50% between some of the forms ? Is this just variances between dialects of PM ?

The Tiger and Swallow form was a first for me I have never seen this before. It seemed to me to be a series of repeats of techniques from various 7 Star forms that I practice. The students in the demo, particularily the young woman, need much practice they do the forms by rote and have not yet learned to apply the fight to the forms as-it-were.

Can't tell a whole lot otherwise from a few web clips.... if not for TM's post I would have enjoyed the experience of discovering TeamMantis. But having once been the victim of a Master buoyed by false claims, I have a particular sensitivity to such things.

regards,
UM.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Maybe the picture on the Team Mantis website offers a clue. Is this Master Shi?

http://www.teammantis.com/shi.html

[mantis108]

Knowing Tainan Mantis, I know he just report things as is without editing. So if his teacher said that he didn't teach to this martial artist, we can only find out from Tainan Mantis's teacher. From my impression (mostly from Tainan) of Shrfu Shr, he's a pretty traditional guy. So I believe it is best to sought out his blessing before putting things out there. May be it is a communication problem? I am not sure of the situation here so I better not surmise on what happened. However, I can understand how the disclaiming can happen in this case. Personally, I don't think Tainan meant anything negative about the info. My take is Cavet Emptor.

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

ursa major,
I have no way of viewing the clips because I can't get my real player to work. I can only watch mpegs. I would like to view their kung fu and make comments, but for this reason can not.

Shr Zhengzhong was not familiar with Sun's name, but remembered his dad who also is a kung fu master.
Since Sun's dad was friends with Wu Changying (my shr hsiung), Shr Zhengzhong said that Wu taught Sun.

I said," are you sure?"
He was sure.

The forms that Sun knows are the same forms that Wu knows. This I know because Wu did kung fu in the park with me for half a year.
His two man drills can not represent the fighting method of Pong Lai since he only learned the Pai An drill and that basic drill you saw in pics on Paul's web site where one guy hits a stick. This drill should be done with two people not a person and a stick.

Interesting to note that while Wu was teaching kung fu in the states he studied with He Chongyen. Master He is also listed as a teacher of Sun.
He Chongyen's teacher was Wu Shaolin. His biggest contribution to MA, in my eyes, is his long stick fighting method. It is called six harmony stick. Both small and big. The big version is also a partner form.
This master is famous for his ground boxing and longfist.

On the plus side I do not find Sun's claims to be disturbing. Shr Zhengzhong is his Shr Ye, not Shr fu. In a few days I will ask him if he would like to host his shr ye next visit to the states.
Then he can go thru some of the formalities to become a proper student and nobody will be angry.
This way we can promote unity in the PM community.

BTW, the tiger swallow form is not a PM form.

Hua Lin,
That link you posted does indeed send us to a pic of Shr Zhengzhong.
Another pic shows He Chongyen and yet another shows Zhang Fuchen. Any students of John have probably heard stories about this last guy who is our Shr Hsiung.

[mantisben]

BTW, the tiger swallow form is not a PM form.

On the website www.teammantis.com the description of the form Xiao Hu Yan reads as follows:

Xiao Hu Yan (Tiger and Swallow Boxing (1st set)) This is a Longfist Mantis form with longer range attacks, fast but smooth movement, strong leg techniques and takedowns. Power generation is quite different than in the Seven Star forms, as is the body movement.

On Lee Kam Wing's website, this form is called "Small Tiger and Wild Geese Boxing".

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantisben,
If you look at the Mantis Cave under Longfist PM you will get a good historical review on this style.

This form is classified as Longfist PM by Paul Sun because Gao Daosheng used this name, long fist PM.
In truth Gao's PM should be considered a type of MeiHua PM. But hsiao hu yen is not PM.

This form was brought to Taiwan by Wang Songting. He taught Gao Daosheng as well as Li Hongjie, both are my grandteacher. It was created in the early 30"s as part of the JingWu curriculum and is still practiced in China today.

The famous Japanese student of Su Yuzhang wrote that this form was passed down from Wang Lang himself. Now we can say that this surely isn't true.

As far as the middle and large versions are concerned they were probably created in Taiwan.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis

This form is classified as Longfist PM by Paul Sun because Gao Daosheng used this name, long fist PM.
In truth Gao's PM should be considered a type of MeiHua PM. But hsiao hu yen is not PM.

It was created in the early 30"s as part of the JingWu curriculum and is still practiced in China today.

As far as the middle and large versions are concerned they were probably created in Taiwan.

Is this form like "Gung Lik Kune" in the sense that GLK isn't a PM form, but it was part of the Ching Wu curriculum, and is usually taught as part of the PM system?

[mantis108]

Hi MantisBen,


Is this form like "Gung Lik Kune" in the sense that GLK isn't a PM form, but it was part of the Ching Wu curriculum, and is usually taught as part of the PM system?

Gongliquan (Kung Lik kuen) was absorded into the Ching Wu curriculum. The earilest record of this one form system (Gonglimen) dated back to Qing dynasty Qianlong period (1736-1796 CE). So this form could be older than the USA or Canada. Master Wong Fung Ting in his book "Practicing Gongliquan" noted at least 2 versions available around the book's publishing time (May 1964). His version was much longer and very repetitive [re: repeat to 4 directions]. The Ching Wu version (not necessary the other version that Wang was talking about) is much shorter. The interesting thing about the CW version is that it ends in 90 degrees position clockwise to the opennig position. If the form repeat 4 times clockwise, you will finish back at where you started just like Master Wang suggested (I think I will be dead by then, lol...) Just some interesting thing about the Gongliquan.

Regards

Mantis108