MMA / NHB / TMA and Golden Age of MA [Archive]

MA fanatic

08-10-2002, 11:49 AM

I keep reading the same subjects addressed on different threads.
So wanted to bring it all together on one thread just to make jumping from topic to topic easier.

First: Most stylists who compete in NHB and MMA come from traditional arts. If you think about it, BJJ, Pankration, Boxing, Wrestling, Hook and Shoot, Muay Thai, Sambo, etc. etc. all have their own history, traditions, lineage, masters, discipline, and methods of training which range from traditional to modern. Just because some fighters prefere certain techniques over others when competing in MMA / NHB, it doesn't mean that they only train in a few techniques. BJJ, for example, is an art which is as traditional as TKD, Karate, Kung Fu, Hapkido, Aikido, and Judo. The same can be said for virtually any art an NHB fighter practices. Sure there are schools which teach some mix and match blend of techniques. But, schools which produce best NHB fighters are in fact traditional.

Second: Martial arts are intended for fighting. As a matter of fact, masters who created styles often tested their techniques in combat against other systems (hell even Tai Chi was a combat art with meridian pressure points being hidden in its forms). This method of perfecting oneself and expanding one's art stopped fairly recently as martial arts became watered down. Now more and more masters are concerned with the business side of teaching, and use lineages and stories of ancient masters to prove their skill. It is important to note that masters who founded styles (masters like Jigoro Kano, Mas Oyama, Helio Gracie, Kanbun Uechi, etc. etc.) were inovators with limmited tools to inovate. Had they lived in what is now the Golden Age Of Martial Arts, they to would be cross training and experimenting.

Third: It is true that some mma magazines and even fighters take on that 'macho guy' image. However, let me assure you that should you talk to anyone who is anything on the NHB circut, you'd quickly see an individual who is quite humble, kind, and open minded. I train with mma fighters at the Gracie bjj academy. I have met Tito Ortiz, Severn, members of the Gracie family, Fabiano Iha, Eric Paulson, etc. etc. and all are gentlemen to say the least. All care about exchanging knowledge, having a good time, and promoting martial arts to the best of their ability.
Lets also not forget that if an NHB guy is acting tough, he better have a way to prove his toughness. Lets also not forget that when first martial arts made their way to the United States, it was the so called "traditional" masters who acted tough and made claims of skills they did not posses. Now many have quieted down since NHB is an avenue for them to prove how deadly they really are.

Fourth: There is no reason why a so called "traditional master" would or should not be able to prove his deadly skills in the NHB ring. There are NHB tournaments like IVT where there are hardly any rules and virtually no protective equipment worn. Just to say that "my style is too deadly for NHB fighting and not intended for sport" is most certainly an exuse. May as well just say, "look, i'm not in shape to fight guys who train full time to fight." NHB fighters are modern day gladiators. Most would also be offended if you call them street fighters (though all would fair very well in a street confrontation...just as well if not better than any traditional master). NHB is not for everyone, but it had done nothing but good things. It dispelled myths, quickly proved which techniques work and which don't, promoted the importance of conditioning and proved the need for all stylists to grapple (if you can't fight on the ground, you can't fight).

Fifth: We're living in the Golden Years Of Martial Arts. We are now exposed to any art from around the globe. We can also now train from virtually any well known living master (be it via seminar, individual, video, etc. etc.). The masters who created styles only dreamed of living in the time we live today. Do you guys think that had Gichin Funakoshi lived in LA right now, he would not visit the Gracie Academy or the Lions Den? Of course he would. He would also love to learn some Muay Thai, Sambo, Wing Chun, and even Tai Chi (as a matter of fact, he advocates for grappling in his autobiography "Karatedo My Way Of Life"). But, somehow, the most important part of lineage, is forgoten. We're so concerned with who was promoted when and by whom, we forget who the men who did the promoting were. They were inovators. They were fighters who would now be doing more training than promoting and making money. They would be disgusted with how their memory changed over the years.
MA fanatic

NorthernMantis

08-10-2002, 01:27 PM

Hey great post. Now if you started psoting like this then maybe more people would pay more attention.:cool:

MA fanatic

08-10-2002, 01:36 PM

Northern,
I think if people reread my posts on every single thread, they'll see that I have posted the same thing verbatum. The only time I have deveated was when obvious children challenged me to fights, insulted me, talked about some people they never met as in a negative way (not talking about technique but personality), and made obvious errors in historical facts. Otherwise, I have always said the same things over and over. This time I just wanted to bring several topics under one thread because I see the same people addressing these topics on different threads. Sometimes people mix threads and address topics from one thread on another thread. I have had my posts from one thread addressed on some different thread. All that gets confusing.
MA fanatic

Le nOObi

08-10-2002, 02:00 PM

good points

old jong

08-10-2002, 04:16 PM

Sorry but I don't buy that! IMO,The NHB,MMA thing is only an offshot of MA's.
The small minority practicing those sports are not to be considered as representing a "golden age" of any kind.We are going through a period where a new fighting sport designed for public performance was created but can this sport becomes practical and practicable for anybody?...I seriously doupt it!
This sport can be practiced with profit only by young athletes in their primes.The same as in boxing or any other competitive and elitist sports.
I can't imagine the ordinary guy in his fourthie's or fiftie's going to his chuteboxing lesson after work,coming back to his wife with his teeth in a brown bag and two black eyes and going on with his normal life!...
IMO,it is more the golden age of ring fighting...For the promotors!

old jong

08-10-2002, 04:21 PM

It is the golden age of trolls!...;)

MA fanatic

08-10-2002, 07:57 PM

Old Jong: I hope you're not calling me a troll. What did I say that was so wrong.

Oh, I know, you read my post too quickly. Go ahead, take a deep breath and reread it again. I didn't say that we're living in the Golden Age of Martial ARts because of NHB. We're living in the Golden Age Of Martial ARts because we have exposure to all arts around the world. We also have the opportunity to study first hand from some of the worlds greatest masters. I only said that we have benefited from NHB. You should read more carefully before responding to someone's post.

As for NHB fighters, you're right, fighting is a game for people in their youth. There have been NHB fighters, however, who have competed in their mid 40s. No reason those who call themselves "traditionalists" couldn't compete while they're in their prime. As for people older than 40, no one is expecting them to fight. I would however put my money on Rickson Gracie who is in his 40s, if he had to fight a "classical" (for lack of a better word) master who never fought. Also, if you actually see some NHB events, you'd find that most winners come from fairly traditional backgrounds (bjj, judo, sambo, muay thai, pankration, JKD, etc. etc.).
Now please learn to read more carefully before challenging someone's statements or insulting anyone.
MA fanatic

dezhen2001

08-11-2002, 12:31 AM

We're living in a 'Golden Age of MA' where most people are only concerned with making $$$. Yup, martial arts are very popular in the world right now - but how many people are training correctly and not as some exercise or child minding capacity?

We're living in a 'Golden Age of MA' where we have ppl always arguing the effectivness of our skill, though most of us just get on with our training to get better and develop it.

We're living in a 'Golden Age of MA' where ppl who have good marketing can fly all over the world and teach some BS to those who want to get out of doing hard training and find a shortcut.

We're living in a 'Golden Age of MA' where ppl 'test their skill' in a ring for others entertainment, then look down upon those who don't (otherwise why would a lot of u guys be here?).

If this is the 'Golden Age', then count me out... i'd rather get on with developing my own skill :)

david

ArrowFists

08-11-2002, 01:49 AM

Excellent post MA Fanatic.

Unfortunately I think it fell on largely deaf ears.

Your points about the masters of old was spot on. Fighting has always been an important aspect of Martial Arts, and masters trying out their skill against other arts and adapting is common knowledge.

If your "art" or style is too "deadly" to be competitive, then you aren't doing a martial art.

You're doing martial fluff.

Or as we call it, "Bullshido".

awakenwired

08-11-2002, 02:02 AM

Nice post. I understand the whole "Golden Age" bit, and agree with it actually. I don't really understand those commenting otherwise. Theres a lot of knowledge out there in this day and age, and a great deal of it is Available. But all that knowledge out there is lost unless people can keep open their minds, and learn new lessons. As far as all the talk about marketing, and profits, and the $$$. Well ya, it's probably the golden age for that too, but greed infects just about EVERYTHING in life, not just MA.

Once again, good point. I hope others start seeing the light soon.

Chang Style Novice

08-11-2002, 03:29 AM

I agree that the new era of openness and globalization (ie: more martial arts from more cultures more readily available for study) is pretty much indicitive of a golden age, at least in one sense. The ongoing efforts by many people to combine ancient, time proven practices with modern equipment, nutrition, and anatomical/analytical methods is producing a stronger, healthier, better informed top level practioner than was ever possible before, too, and that too can be called a golden age. There's a yang to all this yin, though, and that is as noted: simultaneously we have a large number of martial artists who view their skills as a money making resource and little else. There's nothing wrong with making money (or so I hear - I don't make much;) ), but the first priority of any master of ANYTHING should be to preserve their knowledge for future generations. There's nothing wrong with teaching anyone be they kids or adults discipline and physical fitness, and martial arts are an excellent source of both. And, frankly, in my ideal world there's not much need for anybody to defend themselves from attackers or to go to war, so the most fundamental uses of martial arts don't really have a place in it.

But I believe that humans thrive on conflict. When things are too calm and peaceful, someone is going to get bored and start something just to have something to do. Martial arts in it's sportfighting aspect allows for conflict to exist in a way that doesn't involve actual political or economic strife or oppression, and that is overall fundamentally healthy for the participants (assuming referees stop when appropriate and everyone taps out when they should.) Naturally, contests like this don't have to be mano a mano slugrapplefesten: it's equally possible to race, or play chess, or target shoot, or any number of other ways. But none of these is directly a contest between individuals as a ring fight.

**** insomnia - I can't figure the original point of this post anymore. Well, I'm clicking submit reply anyway. Hope somebody can figure out what I'm saying now that I can't anymore.

old jong

08-11-2002, 03:39 AM

I was not calling you a troll! It is true that it is the golden age of the trolls,that's all!...

BTW, this "golden age" of MA will often prevent people from going deep enough in their first chosen MA to get good enough to use it for real before starting to fix their personnal techniques salad from all around the spectrum of styles.
But it is just my opinion! ;)

MA fanatic

08-11-2002, 08:31 AM

It is interesting that the people who argued against my post, which is good because that is what forums are about (I'm all for healthy debating), have always disagreed with me no matter what I say. It's like I'm the Yang and they're the Yin. Oh OK cool

Old Jong: I'm sorry, I thought you were calling me a troll. I take back my comments.

I think you guys are missing the point. The people who are fighting in a ring, don't care if someone is or isn't in the ring unless they make statements of being deadly. Even then, most NHB guys only really care about other NHB guys. They really want to promote MMA as a sport because of the time they spend training and the love they have for it. If you actually talk to any MMA guy, they would love to see and hear about new techniques. They would immediately drill them and test them (hey, even Dan Severn attended George Dillman seminars for pressure point training). I think it's the CMA guys who more or less attack NHB fighters who actually come from classical fighting styles and merely want to test their skills.

The arts were build on challenge matches. It's important to remember that like the NHB fighters of today, masters have done that for centuries. They were limmited to fighting the arts from their country of their origin, that is the only difference. Mas Oyama and his students fought in full contact all across the world promoting Kyokushinkai. Kanbun Uechi said what he would take on all challengers (which he did) upon arriving from China to Okinawa. I heard stories of Chinese masters who have done the same. Even the mild enlightened Morihei Ueshiba (creater of aikido) had his share of battles and even killings before discovering harmony and creating Aikido. Hell, even Tai Chi (which is now mostly taught a method to promote health and vitality) use to be a deadly art. NHB is nothing new. It is new in the United States, but if you take the historical time line of martial arts, NHB matches had been going on for centuries. Such matches were always valued and considered very important in testing one's skill.

As for the money end of martial arts, that is something you have to take on with your instructors. I am also pist when I hear people chargin rates that are out of this world. I am even more ****ed when I hear students say, "we owe a lot to grandmaster .... because he doesn't have to teach us, but he's passing his secret knowledge onto us anyway." Yet these same masters charge thousands. I am personally tired of masters selling off your student contracts to collection agencies (popular now agong many new instructors and Korean Martial Arts masters). I am sick of people charging an arm and a leg for promotion tests which they give once a month, yet create 15 different belts prior to black belt (this way a student reaches his black belt not knowing anything, and still pays thousands). I'm sick of people taking a large chunk of change for montly training, then dictating how often a student should train during the week (one price being for 1 day a week, another price being for 3 days a week, and some astronomical price being for "unlimmited use of the dojo, dojang and/or kwoon."). But, that's life.

This is America. Where we have freedom to train from who ever we like when ever we like. That is why this is the Golden Age of Martial Arts. If one teacher is a money hungry master, I will find someone else who will teach me better. The people of old never had that chance. They never had those freedoms. In a Global sense, we're much better off than ever before.
MA fanatic

Merryprankster

08-11-2002, 09:27 AM

Case in point--a random Muay Thai instructor showed up and told Lloyd that he would like to teach MT at Lloyd's school. Well, the guy barely speaks english, but he has a translator that helps him, and the resume of this fellow is both easily verifiable and impressive. Good pro MT record in Thailand, a Masters in physical education, and he's been teaching MT, managing venues and was a college MT coach for several years. The guy KNOWS his stuff, and the good MT fighters we have at our gym have all commented on it.

This never would have happenned 80 years ago.

PLCrane

08-11-2002, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by MA fanatic:

Fourth: There is no reason why a so called "traditional master" would or should not be able to prove his deadly skills in the NHB ring. There are NHB tournaments like IVT where there are hardly any rules and virtually no protective equipment worn. Just to say that "my style is too deadly for NHB fighting and not intended for sport" is most certainly an exuse.

I can think of a few reasons why they wouldn't want to do that. First of all, kungfu has been proven to be too dangerous for sport. In the 70's and 80's there were full contact kungfu tournaments, and the number of serious injuries was unacceptable. Consequently, the rules were changed.

All the martial artists I know who are over the age of 50 and used to do full contact fighting still suffer from injuries they received 20-30 years ago.

None of the advanced level martial artists I know have any desire to cause anyone else injuries just to prove a point.

Fifth: We're living in the Golden Years Of Martial Arts. We are now exposed to any art from around the globe. We can also now train from virtually any well known living master (be it via seminar, individual, video, etc. etc.).

Yeah, we are. It's amazing what's available now compared to 20 years ago.

Le nOObi

08-11-2002, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by PLCrane
[i]I can think of a few reasons why they wouldn't want to do that. First of all, kungfu has been proven to be too dangerous for sport. In the 70's and 80's there were full contact kungfu tournaments, and the number of serious injuries was unacceptable. Consequently, the rules were changed.

That isnt because kung-fu is too deadly it is because when you get a whole bunch of amatuer fighters who train in different ways to get together and fight full contact people are going to get injured horribley. This is simply because people are going to be on entirely different levels. This is why fights between people who have never fought pro before need to be regulated.

Shadow Dragon

08-11-2002, 04:25 PM

"Golden Age of MA".

Personally, I don't think that there is nor ever was a golden age of MA.

Current:
There are way too many frauds, wannabees, quick fix MA and so on now for it ever to be called the "Golden Age of MA".

Past:
If there ever was a Golden age of MA it still has to show it's ugly head.

For me the "Golden Age of MA" exist only
People's Head.

Yesterday, today and tomorrow it takes hard work to become good at MA.
And only a few exceptional people will really succeed and become "Masters".

Peace.

MA fanatic

08-11-2002, 04:51 PM

PLcane: Where were all those tournaments held (the ones which showed the danger of Kung Fu)? There were a few mixed martial arts events sponsored by Araan Banks in the 70s, but no one got hurt. Were those competitions in China? That is what some masters would have you believe but never actually give you a place, date or sponsor. Were those events in the United States? What city? Who fought in them? Who was the sponsor? What were the rules? When were those tournaments held? Most martial arts historians in the United States would agree that it was only in 1993 that official "no rules" martial arts competitions originated and were sponsored by the Gracie family. I heard stories of other events (usually from people who were told by their instructor that he/she fought in them and hurt people), but no one could ever give any specifics as to where, when, and how they were held. lol
MA fanatic

MA fanatic

08-11-2002, 04:55 PM

PLcane: Are you refering to those "blood and guts" competitions back in the 70s when Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, and Skipper Mullins (among others) competed (they were not full contact...those were point fighting tournaments where people gut hurt due to lack of control)? Or are you referring to "full contact karate age" when kick boxing was invented (they were not nhb events)? Please be more specific.
MA fanatic

PLCrane

08-11-2002, 05:11 PM

I'm referring to the Kuoshu Federation tournements. I think the first one held outside of China was in Hawaii in 1980 or 81. I have friends who were there, and I've seen videos. I don't have a copy of the rules as they were then, but I didn't see any protective equipment - that came later. Nor do I know what kind of injuries were the most common. One of my friends was on ambulance duty, so I'll ask him.

jimmy23

08-11-2002, 05:47 PM

also, what were the rules? Did they allow unfettered ground work? Kess, elbows, free clinch work?

TaoBoy

08-11-2002, 05:56 PM

Great post, MA Fanatic.

Whilst I don't agree with the "Golden Age" statement, I still think this is a great time to be involved in MA. The one thing that we still need to get straight is the over-inflated ego of so many self-important MA practitioners. It seems Wu De is sadly lacking in modern MA. That said, I just caught a glimpse of my first Pride FC video and the guys in were humble and compassionate (outside the ring), and this is good to see! (Can someone explain how Renzo's elbow can get dislocated and the guy hardly flinches? Impressive!)

Just my $0.02. ;)

jimmy23

08-11-2002, 07:02 PM

if these tournaments are the ones Im thinking of (I belive that Su Dong Chen one one them at 17 years old) They allowed only three or four seconds of work in the clinch, no ground worrk, and throws from standing.

straight blast

08-11-2002, 07:10 PM

"Who was the sponsor? What were the rules? When were those tournaments held? Most martial arts historians in the United States would agree that it was only in 1993 that official "no rules" martial arts competitions originated and were sponsored by the Gracie family"

"Most martial arts historians in the United States would agree that it was only in 1993 that official "no rules" martial arts competitions originated

Pardon me for I am about to be offensive. F*k me some Americans are so f*cking arrogant. Just because "martial arts historians" in America say it is so, then it must be. Maybe under the format suggested above with "Sponsors" :rolleyes: . I'm sure that when Yip Man's students used to fight bareknuckle the first thing they were thinking about was who was going to sponsor the fight.

MA Fanatic I actually enjoyed your post. But please be aware that things actually happen outside the US that don't in any way conform to the US norm. I have fought in a few full contact tournaments. None of them were "sponsored". The "rules" were variable and agreed to by each fighter before their individual fights. And there was no media coverage or write up in a glossy magazine. Simply a case of different schools getting together to test each other in an informal, respectful manner. This was certainly pre 1993, and I think that the US MA historians might have missed us. And somehow I doubt we were the first.

Try to think outside the box just for a minute ;)

Sorry. Rant ended now.

jimmy23

08-11-2002, 07:25 PM

Outside of Brazil, though, there is no record of true MMA anywhere, period. Not that allowed unrestricted clench work and ground work. Ive seen foootage of some of the rooftop matches in Hong Kong, without exception when one guy wnet down the other let him getback up.

You need to get away from believing in things that youve never seen , nor has anyone else, like these mythical tournaments where people died because of the skills of the masters. As has been said, these were nowhere near true NHB.

TaoBoy

08-11-2002, 08:27 PM

Excuse me for saying this but...

It's hard for any of us to say exactly what did/did not happen prior to the NHB comps we now know of (unless we were there). Obviously, people have been testing each other in matches of one type or another from day dot. Let's not get into arguments about specifics and just agree that the Gracies were the first and our generation won't be the last. Maybe things were done differently before UFC and Pride but they were still done.

Thanks for reading!

David Jamieson

08-11-2002, 09:15 PM

There is no reason why a so called "traditional master" would or should not be able to prove his deadly skills in the NHB ring.

Just wanna jump in for the heck of it.
Anyway, I can think of all kinds of reasons. First thing that comes to mind is age. There are many traditional masters of kung fu who still teach their martial arts to a younger generation while they themselves are in their autumn years. There are others who are at master level in their martial arts who choose not to compete as it may be contrary to their personal philosopy.

One thing martial arts and artists shouldn't be is elitist.

Everyone can fight, most choose to do so in their so called "prime". Some people are adrenalin junkies and fight junkies and some really appreciate it for the science of it, so to speak. Still more practice martial arts for fun, health, fitness and to make new friends.

peace

jimmy23

08-11-2002, 10:55 PM

" Let's not get into arguments about specifics and just agree that the Gracies were the first and our generation"

in our generation, thats what I should have said, and probably, (due to lack of documentation elsewhere) for the last 100 years or so

Serpent

08-11-2002, 10:58 PM

The golden age of martial arts was before the invention of the gun. Since then it's all relatively academic.

Shadow Dragon

08-11-2002, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by Serpent
The golden age of martial arts was before the invention of the gun. Since then it's all relatively academic.

If that is true MOST TMA would never have known that olden Age.

Check your Chinese History of Inventions and their dates.
Acutally there was a good 3hr program last night on Discovery about the subject.

Peace

Serpent

08-11-2002, 11:13 PM

I'm not suggesting that there isn't a place for MA's since the invention of the gun. There's always going to be a valid place for it in any society at any time.

I'm just saying that the only real "golden age" was before the gun came along..... Perhaps that golden age extended until the gun became readily available to the general public?

Shadow Dragon

08-11-2002, 11:21 PM

Serpent.

Re-read my Post. I asked you to check since when the Chinese & Japanese used Guns.

The Japanese rejected the Gun after it was introduced by the Spanish & Protugese.
They already had mortars and mines before the round-eyes came along.

At that time the Chinese had Guns already for CENTURIES.
They also had repeating crossbows, rocket launchers, landmines and various types of rockets batteries.
Flame throwers that could shoot a contious strema of fire.
"Flying Dragon Rockets" with a range of nearly 2km to attack other Ships.

Chinese started using Black Powder offensively around 900~1000AD.

Peace.

jimmy23

08-11-2002, 11:25 PM

you are correct shadow, but they didnt develop the technology to as high a level as the Western countries did.

Shadow Dragon

08-11-2002, 11:29 PM

Jimmy23.

True, many of the chinese invention were never really used for the same purpose that the Westerners used them for or developed to such a high degree.

Many like Guns were later re-imported into China.

But I guess their old Guns/weapons were still lethal enough to be used and a threat in a confrontation.

Peace.

jimmy23

08-11-2002, 11:31 PM

I would beinterested in a study that examines that question, why the western coutries developed firearm technology faster than the Chinese, who had the stuff first. Interesting.

Shadow Dragon

08-11-2002, 11:41 PM

Jimmy23.

From the Report last night, it was the Chinese that had it first and got to the west via the Arabs.

The western People perfected the imported technology.
But we are still talking Muskets here, that had to be loaded, charged and fired via a "stand". But one shot every 2~3 minutes.
Even 130yrs ago accuracy was still a common problem.

Fully handheld rifles and pistols only came much later.
But than the Chinese had Cannons way before the west.

Also in China all development was part and owned by the Emperor and thus not available to the public. Compare this to the Church in the west that a much wider spread of their knowledge.

Peace.

Serpent

08-11-2002, 11:48 PM

So you're backing up my point really. Miss with the first shot and I've got 2-3 minutes to run up and beat you senseless with my kung fu.

Whereas nowadays any punk can have fifteen instant, accurate shots tucked into his baggy jeans.

All I was saying was that the golden age of martial arts was before firearms became accurate and numerous.

jimmy23

08-11-2002, 11:57 PM

my understanding of the western innovations is that the firearm really beacme prominant around the 1700s. By the mid 1800s its supremecy was unsurpassed for large scale endeavours, due to the ability of large groups to form bayonet walls to protect the guys reloading. Ive been wrong before , though

Shadow Dragon

08-12-2002, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by Serpent
All I was saying was that the golden age of martial arts was before firearms became accurate and numerous.

That clarifies it, since you mean MODERN Firearms, aka late 19th Century onwards.

Peace.

MA fanatic

08-12-2002, 03:01 AM

Straightblast: No one is denying that fights between schools have occured outside the United States. If you reread my post, you'll that i indeed have my head out of the box and support the fact that fights have occured between martial arts schools and instructors. I was the one who said that masters in the olden days tested their skills. I actually saw some photographs of various challenge matches from China, Japan, Indonesia, Russian, and Okinawa. The individual I was responding to suggested there were sanctioned events with rules. I asked him "what the rules were" and who sanctioned these tournaments. That's it. No one is argueing with you on the fact whether or not all fights were documented.

As for martial arts historians, most are in fact quite accurate. Many have traveled all across the globe studying ancient fighting arts, traditions, myths, etc. etc. Not one had yet denied the fact that fights, even duels to the death ever existed. As a matter of fact, I keep seeing and hearing martial arts historians suggest that they did.

I disagree with the statements that the Golden Age of Martial Arts happened just prior to the envention of the gun. The reason I chose this particular period, is because of the wealth of knowledge available to those desiring to train in martial arts. Keep in mind, we even have the choice now of which art to train in that best fits our needs, and have the opportunities to travel the world should we decide to persue those arts in their native land. The fact that there are crooks who charge too much, or who inflated their rank has nothing to do with it. I'm sure those have always existed.

Keep in mind, what we have available to us now, is what some of the greatest masters always dreamed of having. You guys think that if Yip Man lived today he wouldn't be interested in the popularity and progression of grappling into the martial arts scene? If you think "out of the box" you will realize that he, among many others, would be facinated by that phenomenon. He may even want to role on the mat.
MA fanatic

Shadow Dragon

08-12-2002, 03:15 AM

Ma Fanatic.

I basically agree with you.

Except that compared to lets say 200yrs ago it has become easier & easier to fool People whereas modern day Man is less inclined to make sacrifices and want an instant fix/solution.

Peace.

MA fanatic

08-12-2002, 03:20 AM

Good point. That's exactly true.
MA fanatic

Le nOObi

08-12-2002, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by jimmy23
Outside of Brazil, though, there is no record of true MMA anywhere, period. Not that allowed unrestricted clench work and ground work. Ive seen foootage of some of the rooftop matches in Hong Kong, without exception when one guy wnet down the other let him getback up.

You need to get away from believing in things that youve never seen , nor has anyone else, like these mythical tournaments where people died because of the skills of the masters. As has been said, these were nowhere near true NHB.

What about roman gladiatorial events thats an example of documented any thing goes fighting.

jimmy23

08-12-2002, 09:22 AM

as I said above, I should have clarified, i meant within the last 100 years or so

PLCrane

08-12-2002, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by jimmy23
if these tournaments are the ones Im thinking of (I belive that Su Dong Chen one one them at 17 years old) They allowed only three or four seconds of work in the clinch, no ground worrk, and throws from standing.

That sounds consistent with what I saw, and it's similar to the current rules. Yes, elbows and knees were allowed. No external padding. I don't know if mouth guards or cups were used.

I sent questions out to people who were there, and I'm waiting to hear any answers. I'm under the impression that common injuries were concussions, contusions, fractures and dislocations. I hadn't heard that anyone died.

Here are links to current rules for Kuoshu
http://www.tienshanpai.org/usckf/events/tourn-rules.shtml
http://home.mweb.co.za/ku/kuoshu/rules.pdf

and for comparison, current UFC rules:
Sorry, I can't seem to get there today.

Le nOObi

08-12-2002, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by jimmy23
as I said above, I should have clarified, i meant within the last 100 years or so
Oh okay

Tigerstyle

08-13-2002, 02:05 PM

"...compared to lets say 200yrs ago it has become easier & easier to fool People whereas modern day Man is less inclined to make sacrifices and want an instant fix/solution."

Shadow Dragon,
At the same time, the advances in technology and the spread of information now allow people to become capable of much more than ever before, if they so choose. World records in speed, strength, endurance, etc. are always being surpassed and set even higher, only to be eventually surpassed/raised again.

I agree about the rampant "instant fix" mentality (lord knows, I've looked into my fair share of them. I own a Geroge Foreman Grill, too :) ), but think about what MA Fanatic is saying like this:

He states that this is the golden age of martial arts. Not necessarily the golden age of civilization, or even the golden age of martial artists for that matter.

Sure there's lots of junk out there to wade through, but now there's more treasure available for people to find than ever. It's up to the individual to do the research. The art doesn't seek out the person (it never did). The amount of MA-related info available to us today is truly amazing.

old jong,
Are you saying having many choices is a bad thing? I agree that there is a potential to ruin your ice cream with too many toppings, but why should everyone not have the benefit of being exposed to what is available and finding out for themselves what they're looking for?

Sort of OT: I went to Cold Stone (ice cream place, if ya didn't know :) ) for the first time the other day. On the wall is a selection of creations that customers came up with. So many flavors to choose from. So many variations. Most of them sounded deicious, and none of them were overloaded with "too many" toppings/flavors. I still chose my own variation :D (Kit Kat and walnuts on vanilla. In a chocolate dipped "waffle cone" bowl.)

A bit more OT: I can't imagine putting Gummy Bears™ on my ice cream.

Shadow Dragon

08-13-2002, 02:30 PM

Tiger style.

Not sure if I agree with you.
What wins in a modern sports arena the superior equipment or the superior training method or the Athlete.

The way I see it the athlete has been reduced to a minor "safe" factor.
Let them train the same way and use the same equipment and lets see if they can duplicate the feats of 100yrs ago. Heck, even 50yrs ago.
To be honest I doubt that they will even come close.

I also agree with Old Jong that there are too many choices, Information sources.
100yrs ago a Student had only his Teacher, this days he can have Info from a variety of sources legit. valid or not.

In short waht I thing Old Jong and myself are thinking I that the focus has been lost and thus the skill will suffer.

Peace.

shinbushi

08-13-2002, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon
Serpent.

The Japanese rejected the Gun after it was introduced by the Spanish & Protugese.

Sorry Oda Nobunaga one of the 3 Unifiers of Japan extensivly used guns to defeat his enemies (even his own family :eek: )
One well doccumented battle was Iga no Ran (The battle of Iga) where he slaughered hundrends of Ninja families, or where he sacked the Budddhist temples of Mt. Hiei. Hideyoshi also used (the 2nd Unifier) them extensivly. The samurai would not use them but there were many ashigaru (Conscripted pesants) units that used them. Even though it is a game, Shogun Total War is a pretty accurate account of the Sengoku era of Japan. Except for the Calvery riding into battle. As Samurai rode Mongolian ponys to the battle and as they were'nt that fast, they would dismnount before battle.

dezhen2001

08-13-2002, 02:35 PM

it's what i'm thinking 2 Shadow Dragon :p

Much better to train hard under your Sifu and Sihings, gain some understanding of the skill and then u can do whatever. Not just for a few years either, but really understand it.

Also because of the information available on MA today, there seem to be many more 'armchair MArtists' than ever before, even some who advise others how to train! How can u possibly talk about a system you have never legitimately trained in and developed real skill from?

imo of course :)

david

Tigerstyle

08-13-2002, 02:59 PM

"The way I see it the athlete has been reduced to a minor "safe" factor. Let them train the same way and use the same equipment and lets see if they can duplicate the feats of 100yrs ago. Heck, even 50yrs ago. To be honest I doubt that they will even come close."

IMO, using the exact same methods would mean they are capable of performing the exact same feats as people from 50-100 years ago. It's not like people were created differently then.

Using today's knowledge of training methods, nutrition, human physiology, and having access to only the equipment from "back in the day", I feel today's athletes could still very easily duplicate (and surpass) feats/records set 50-100 years ago.

It's like (KFO member) Asia says, "Application of knowledge is power." :)

Do you think people from the past, if given access to the equipment/information we have today, would not improve in any way?

"I also agree with Old Jong that there are too many choices, Information sources. 100yrs ago a Student had only his Teacher, this days he can have Info from a variety of sources legit. valid or not."

I personally don't see it as "too many choices". I see the amount and freedom of choice we are exposed to, and I wouldn't trade that for anything.

Besides, who's to say the one teacher you have access to is legit or valid? He might be the best boxer in the village, but could be a total novice compared to the "outside world". That's probably fine if you never leave your village, but many of us don't live so isolated anymore.

Shadow Dragon

08-13-2002, 04:11 PM

If they would get the same results, which I doubt.
Than the a modern day athlete is no better than the athlete 100yrs ago.
The superior method, training & equipment makes the different. NOT the Athlete.

But I rather think that Humans 100yrs ago were more capapble of pushing themselves further and harder than their modern day equivalent.
And thus they would excel over a modern day man competing against them using only the old methods, ways and equipment.

Most modern day pro-Athletes won't even get of their Butts unless you tangle a HUGE paycheck in front of their noses.

Honestly would love to see some of the modern Boxers go up against a fisticuff fighter from way back than.
I know where to palce my money.

Peace.

dezhen2001

08-13-2002, 04:30 PM

I personally don't see it as "too many choices". I see the amount and freedom of choice we are exposed to, and I wouldn't trade that for anything.

Yes we have a lot of choice. Everyone alsways has a choice though. Too many choices often means that people would settle for what was conveniant, and superficial. As in the case of many McKwoons today. An all round great package, friendship, physical training etc. but money grabbing and the skill is generally cack.

Besides, who's to say the one teacher you have access to is legit or valid? He might be the best boxer in the village, but could be a total novice compared to the "outside world". That's probably fine if you never leave your village, but many of us don't live so isolated anymore.

LOL, trying to hark back to the 'good old days'? No one can really know what it was like back then as none of us were there... Anyways, i would say it's better to train in SOMETHING than to sit in an armchair watching videos and reading books while thinking you understand and deveop real skill...

just my thoughts of course :)

Also to kinda tag on to what SD just said: people who lived even a hundred years ago or more imo lived in harsher conditions and harder times. For example, the likes of Survival training done by the armed forces - before, EVERYONE used to live like that, now only the elite can generally hack it.

Of course we have many technological advances nowadays to make things 'easier' and more 'conveniant'. Modernisation huh? :D

david

Shadow Dragon

08-13-2002, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Tigerstyle
Besides, who's to say the one teacher you have access to is legit or valid? He might be the best boxer in the village, but could be a total novice compared to the "outside world". That's probably fine if you never leave your village, but many of us don't live so isolated anymore.

Aaah, little one I can assure you that my current Teacher is legit, as for him being the best Boxer .... ;)
Besides I got access to quiet a few good and reputed Instructors.
Find me another boxer that practices the same style and is regarded at the same level than we can compare notes.

He might not be the best Boxer out there, but he suits my current MA development stage at the moment and I got access to him. :P
You see it is not important if you learn the best style from the best Boxer, but rather that your teacher & style suit YOU.

Sifu X might be the best, but if I haven't got access to him he might as well not exist.

The best Teacher cannot turn lead into Gold, but he can shape a rough dirty gold nugget into something fantastic and marvelous.

It takes the right Teacher/Student combo to creat a new Master.
Peace.

Mr Punch

08-13-2002, 05:49 PM

I don't think that people have become any easier to fool in the last two hundred years. People believed anything before the information age's roots with the mass-production of newspapers... flat earth, mermaids, anthropaphagi, people rising from the dead, people receiving instructions from some being in the sky, nuclear derived power being safe... oh wait... DOH !!! :eek: :rolleyes: :D

Seriously though... There are more stupid people in the world today simply because there are more people in the world today. I think most of them are much harder to fool nowadays, cos the info is only a question to the right person away, a click away, a TV programme away... and sure the info may be wrong, but it still gets people suspicious of what they're told.

And I agree with MAFanatic... ... the access to good info about, and the opportunity to practise, and the learning and practise to critically analyse what you are practising are currently at their maximum.

But I rather think that Humans 100yrs ago were more capapble of pushing themselves further and harder than their modern day equivalent.

Which humans, Shadow?! In which situations? As DZ says, a lot of them had to face hardship in every day life... but they weren't training for it, they were living it, and it was always the elite or the professionals (in some MA cases, the army) who had the luxury of training.

Sure the average person may have had to have pushed themselves harder to get out of bed, but modern athletes are faster, stronger and better than those 100 years ago due to the science in training available.

Shadow Dragon

08-13-2002, 06:18 PM

Mat & others.

A Citydweller 100yrs ago was still a Citydweller.
An accountant 100yrs ago still pushed a Desk like one does today.
A modern day Farmer is still a Farmer.

My point being is that their outlook on life and what can be achieved were different.

Than there was a sense of lets do what no one else has done, not a thinking of lets be better than the next Guy.

Look at how the Olympics alone have changed since they were re-started.
Back than the Competitors were not professionals, but simply people that were good at their given sport.

I can't see many modern man venture to the Amazonas and other areas to finish the explorations that were done 100yrs ago.
Very few do so indeed, even so we could do it now better faster and more accurate than back than.

Why because it means leaving their comfort zone.

It is not the human Body that has changed (actually it did slightly), but the attitude and mindset.

Peace.

Tigerstyle

08-14-2002, 09:21 AM

Shadow Dragon and dezhen2001,
I think we are arguing different points :) .

What I am saying (typing, rather) is that MA Fanatic feels that the information about martial arts in general and access to specific martial arts has grown more than ever before. We (as in the human race) are in a time where knowledge and information can be shared globally at a speed undreamed of 100+ years ago.

I think the point you are making (please correct me if I am wrong) is that people are different today than they were in the past, at least in attitude and mindset. This point doesn't have much bearing on MA Fan's original point, other than there may be more lazy people today than in the past (another debate).

I do agree that there is much fraud/misinformation today (in MA and otherwise). I also agree that there are many very lazy people around today (in MA and otherwise). I honestly cannot make many comparisons about these people and the people of the past, because I wasn't there (and I'm too lazy to research and develop a time machine ;) ).

Would you agree that we have access to more martial arts today than people form 100+ years ago? If not, why?

"Aaah, little one I can assure you that my current Teacher is legit, as for him being the best Boxer ....
Besides I got access to quiet a few good and reputed Instructors.
Find me another boxer that practices the same style and is regarded at the same level than we can compare notes.

He might not be the best Boxer out there, but he suits my current MA development stage at the moment and I got access to him. :P
You see it is not important if you learn the best style from the best Boxer, but rather that your teacher & style suit YOU."

BTW Shadow, I did not mean to apply my earlier statement to you or your teacher :) . It was an example of what people may have had access to, MA-wise, in the past.

However IMHO, your response does support the point of the thread in a way. You say you have access to "quite a few good and reputed instructors". Would I be correct to assume they didn't all happen to have grown up in the same local area as you?

I agree with you when you state the importance of finding a style that suits you personally. I feel that it is more possible today than it ever was in the past to find the style that best suits you.

Yes, more styles out there means more trash, but there is always fraud/misinformation. There will always be fraud/misinformation. It is not a new invention.

Tigerstyle

08-14-2002, 09:33 AM

"Yes we have a lot of choice. Everyone alsways has a choice though. Too many choices often means that people would settle for what was conveniant, and superficial. As in the case of many McKwoons today. An all round great package, friendship, physical training etc. but money grabbing and the skill is generally cack."

What you're saying, in a sense, is that since many people are too lazy (to research) and will likely will make the wrong choice, we should eliminate the choices for everyone. That way no one has to make a wrong choice and everyone will be happy. :D

Sounds... kinda, oppressive :( . If MA wasn't so widespread, many of us would not be on these KFM forums disscussing kung fu.

Merryprankster

08-14-2002, 10:34 AM

Ah yes... another one of those "Back then, people were tougher, the world was better, the sun was shinier, whites were whiter, colors were brighter and giants bestrode the earth."

Go on then. Pull the other one.

guohuen

08-14-2002, 10:49 AM

Seems to me that weight lifting records, running speed records ect. get broken all the time. Maybe the average person was in better shape because they had to be in order to survive, but the average lifespan of people 100-200 years ago doesn't support this. I think as the population grows, what you will see is an increase in both directions. Fit and unfit.

KC Elbows

08-14-2002, 11:23 AM

1) The golden age of martial arts was before the popularifation of the gun

I don't think this is likely. It's based on an assumption that the need for the martial arts was erased by the gun. However, fights still happen, assaults still happen without guns being involved, people beat up people quite often. Therefore, it's not the lack of fist fights that's the "problem".

Guns knocked out swords as an effective weapon, but fists will always be the weapon you always have with you, so their pertinence was not taken away by guns. And the fact that swords, or traditional weapons, for that matter, became obsolete, does not relate to their technical advancement as an art.

Look at western swordsmanship. It is my understanding that western sword techniques reached their most advanced level AFTER the gun took over warfare. Before that, it was heavy armor and horse, if you were on the ground in full plate, well, good luck to you. Once guns came into play, sword work became more systematized, and crossed over into an art. Yet it was not in use on the battlefield, at least by the winners.

So there is an example of a martial art that was far more directly affected by the advent of the gun than unarmed fighting, yet peaked after the gun. So the argument that the golden age was before the gun is, IMO, not necessarily true.

In addition, the information we get from the past is often pretty spotty. For instance, the idea that wing chun was developed to teach troops fast. OK, I can buy that. All except starting with hand forms. No general would stand for it. They will fight with swords, they will train primarily with swords. It doesn't make sense on any level. The goal wasn't to create good fist fighters, but good swordsmen, and fast. But I digress.

2) People were tougher back then

Like the many nobles who practiced and helped develop the martial arts. Yes, they were able to develop a certain mental toughness while their servants were cleaning out their spittoons, wiping their bottoms, and, of course, doing whatever was required.

My point is that civilization is many centuries from a time where everyone had it hard. There has been nobles throughout recorded history. In fact, I would venture to say that as long as we have been recording our history, there have been humans with time management issues. Or is sloth a recent term?

There are still tough people, but tough and smart can sometimes meet half way in the willful individual, if that makes any sense. The smart person sees their shortcomings and addresses them.

In my opinion, this is the golden age of martial arts, but it is not a perfect time, just a time where the best will have better opportunities than the best of any previous age we know of.

Tigerstyle

08-14-2002, 11:42 AM

"In my opinion, this is the golden age of martial arts, but it is not a perfect time, just a time where the best will have better opportunities than the best of any previous age we know of."

That's what I was trying to say, but I clumsily attempted it with 2 pages worth of typing :) .

dezhen2001

08-14-2002, 12:37 PM

d@mn u KC - what's making me agree with u so much lately? :D

I was trying to highlight some of the disadvantages (imo only) that we can find nowadays. I agree that with the advances in technology you can have access to so much more... that can be a good thing :)

Tigerstyle: nope, i was just saying that there is a lot of cack nowadays... nothing about opressing it :D If that's what ppl want, find and are happy to train, then good - at least they get many benefits :) For example: how many ppl on KFO have posted links to 'kung fu' only for some more knoweledgeable ppl to watch it, find out it's actually a BS kempo derived school etc.

But there will always be those people who want more than what those schools/skills can offer, which is another reason why it is so darn hard to find good and authentic CMA teachers :D

it's an interesting thread :)
david

Tigerstyle

08-14-2002, 01:07 PM

dezhen2001,
I know you didn't mean it that way. I was just being smart mouthy :p

dezhen2001

08-14-2002, 01:12 PM

i knew that, but just wanted to clarify what i meant more as i'm rubbish at explaining what i think through typing :p

Smartass (though i know plenty of ppl who are more :D)

david

MA fanatic

08-15-2002, 04:39 PM

I'm surprised some people still believe that "people were tougher" in the olden days. Tougher in which way? People didn't live as long. People weren't as efficient, as intelligent and/or as productive. In terms of their thinking, many were primitive. As for phycial strength, the men now are indeed stronger. Wrestlers are better. Gymnasts do things which even as early as 30 years ago they couldn't do. Runners break records every day, and any boxer would tell you that the technical skills of modern boxers is much greater than that of a prize fighter 50 years ago. How can anyone still suggest that people were tougher? They weren't. They endured more. Psychologically they may have been stronger and perhaps not as pampered by modern day luxuries, but they weren't tougher.

As for following one master for a life time, that I wouldn't call training. That's called brain washing. I have seen too many people devote 20 years of study under one master, truly believing that one man has all the martial answers. WAKE UP! He does not! The good teachers will admit that and allow you to search for your own truth. The one's obsessed with blind loyalty will tell you that "chasing too many rabbits will make you hungry." We're not talking about jumping from one training hall to the next. WE're talking about compensating for what your chosen art lacks. Right now I'm studying bjj. My instructors train in Brazil and all my sparring partners compete regularly all across the U.S. All those people have cross trained in boxing and Muay Thai to compensate for the strikes bjj doesn't give advance training in. That's not chasing rabbits. It's not abandoning the teachings of the Gracie family. It's called using your brain and doing some critical thinking. Don't be brainwashed by your masters guys. They're only human. The ones who claim that they and their are have all the answers, are the ones who have the least.
MA fanatic

PLCrane

09-15-2002, 01:05 PM

I promised I'd post these when I got them. Here they are.

1980 Kuoshu Federation Tournament Rules (paraphrased):

Equipment: Crotch guard only
Fight area: 12x12 square
Scoring:
a. Knockdown hit - 3 points
b. Throwdown - 2 pts.
c. Direct, accurate strike with fist or foot - 1pt. (random hits get no score)
d. make opponent retreat from inner field - 1pt.
e. hold chinna 5 sec. or until opponent taps out - win match
f. 3 knockdowns - win match
g. lose balance and fall, or fall when you hit someone - lose 1 pt.
h. get hit or knocked out of bounds and unable to continue in 10 min. - lose match
i. avoid engaging - 1st time lose match, 2nd time out of contest.
j. one contestant much stronger and other can't match him - lose match

Fouls - 1st offense lose 1 pt., 2nd offense 3 pts, 3rd - revoked qualification
Hits to: head, throat, groin
hits with knee or elbow (note - I saw lots of these on video that didn't get called as fouls)
Intentional injury - civil and criminal liability

Technical fouls: 1st time warning, 2nd lose 1 pt, 3rd lose match
Both parties engaged for more than 3 seconds and failing to separate by 1 step.
Hit opponent while he's on the ground
Hit opponent who has retreated