The Good Grappler....

[Merryprankster]

I'm getting pretty sick of any thread I or other MMA types here post on getting the "good grappler," treatment from a select few. Or maybe I'm just hung over (true) :D

For what it's worth, here's a "good grappler..."

Will they know how to kick, punch, headbutt, knee, and elbow, with anything resembling the timing, finesse and mechanics of somebody who studies these things? Not necessarily. I look like a goon everytime I try to do those things. I'd love to show you guys a video of me trying to "stand-up" fight without clinching. You thought RALEK was entertaining....

They may not even know how to defend a strike of any kind, in any way beyond the normal guy walking down the street.

The nature of grappling lends itself well to full speed sparring. This tends to get you in pretty good shape, from a cardio, muscle strength, and flexibility perspective. Show me an out of shape grappler and I'll show you a new guy or a long training layoff.

A "good grappler," has, to my mind, two paramount abilities/qualities in spades.

--Excellent sensitivity to force vectors (energy) when compared to those who do not do a grappling intensive art, on both a visual and tactile level.

--Excellent skill in manipulating those vectors to achieve a desired result, when compared to those who do not do a grappling intensive art.

What I have found in my sparring experiences is that those who have not done a fair bit of REAL grappling (none of this 'we have grappling too!' crap, thanks) is that they have excellent visual sensitivity to force vectors, and are concious of taking angles, distance, timing, lines of attack and defense, and **** poor tactile sensitivity. The problem is that without tactile sensitivity, the above developed qualities are typically negated if the grappler can get hold of something well enough to start manipulating force vectors.

There is an over or under compensation for forces applied. There is a lack of understanding about how and when to create space or close it. There is an instinct to attack with strikes that have now been rendered ineffective because of balance disruption, rather than attend to the balance disruption FIRST and foremost, to the exclusion of attempting anything else.

I'm sure the answers are in your styles somewhere. But you have to work on those answers with somebody who really knows how to take you down (this actually eliminates a lot of BJJers...) I've always said the scariest person for me to fight is somebody with excellent takedown defenses, who has superb infighting weapons, if that's any help.

Anyway, hardly supermen--but they have a specialty in something that has to be learned about and dealt with, and not in a superficial way.

[Shaolindynasty]

:rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

Hhmmm, Read it fast, but it sounds like your are trying to say grapeling has great benifits without bashing Kung Fu at the same time.

Was I right?

I have to agree with you on the sensitivity thing. Grappeling by it's very nature develops the same excellent physical sensitivty & visual sensitivity to force vectors, and conciousness of taking angles, distance, timing, lines of attack and defense as time honored Kung Fu exercises like Stiky hands, push hands, Chi Na practice etc...

I actually refer to it as "Stick body" due to the fact that grappelers get in so close and develop that sensitivity on a body wide scale very quickly. Very Similar to Shui Chiao and other throwing arts.

I have been playing with Shui Chiao lately for just that very reason. I really like it's ability to grappel standing up, and finish with cripleing throws before even haveing to go to the ground. I'm also looking to learn lots of anti takedowns through study of Shui Chiao as well as I feel THAT is a key aspect. Better to not go down to begin with because your in alot of danger on the ground.

Later down the road, I would like to get in to some sort of wrassli'n though. I think it would be good fun, and useful in casses where you don't want to fracture someone's spine when you throw them. Ground fighting skills would also be good due to the fact that I would like to train Law enforcement someday, and they need more controll and restrant thechniques. Their basic game is to ground a suspect and cuff them. The whole Wreslting/Ground fighting thing would be really good for those guys.

[rogue]

A "good grappler," has, to my mind, two paramount abilities/qualities in spades.

--Excellent sensitivity to force vectors (energy) when compared to those who do not do a grappling intensive art, on both a visual and tactile level.

--Excellent skill in manipulating those vectors to achieve a desired result, when compared to those who do not do a grappling intensive art. Sounds like the Tai Chi guys I've met up with could go under the Good Grappler banner.

MerryP, if you get the chance visit a good Tai Chi school. They seem to have many of the attributes that you mention and I'd like to know what you think.

[Merryprankster]

Thanks for your informative post, shaolindynasty. I'm much smarter for having read it. I don't recall ever having formed a judgment about you yet, so I'll reserve it in case you post something with substance.

Royal-- more or less what I was thinking.

Rogue--Tai Chi and 'internal' styles, from what I've read, seem to follow many of the same principles. I didn't feel educated enough to comment on it or say "like tai chi..."

Personally, I'd love to do some Shuai Chiao or Tai Chi one of these days. I just need about 5 more hours in my day now....

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

I have been playing with Shui Chiao lately for just that very reason. I really like it's ability to grappel standing up, and finish with cripleing throws before even haveing to go to the ground.

Later down the road, I would like to get in to some sort of wrassli'n though. I think it would be good fun, and useful in casses where you don't want to fracture someone's spine when you throw them.

Do you practice these throws full force against resisting opponents? Have you seen them practiced full force against resisting opponents?

If the answer is yes to either of these, how do you deal with all the crippling injuries that occur?

If the answer is no, how would you know these throws are crippling?

[Royal Dragon]

I'm looking for anti take downs and two man drills right now.

But, if you throw a guy full power into a crash mat (Like a gymnast uses), and he really really feels it, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know what the hard ground would do instead.

Question, do you have to fall off of a bicycle head first over the handle bars onto the sidewalk to know that you could and probually would get a fractued scull or a concussion a the least??

Ever see the Chicago bears Quarterback Jim Macmahn thrown head first into the ground in that one game? (1986?) It was after the timeout started, and the play was over (or something like that), so it was a deliberated attempt to maim him. Even though he had a helmet on, and he rolled it as best he could, he was knocked out and his shoulder was severly injured. That was a live and documented example of a classic Shui Chiao throw, and it's devastating effects on the body.

Now imagine THAT with out the football helmet protecting his head, and on regular ground or concrete instead of the turff.

Come on guy, it does not take much to see that throwing a guy on his head is a dangerous and destructive thing to do to someone. :rolleyes:

[Merryprankster]

A standard double leg can have the same effect on somebody, provided they lift and drop instead of turn and dump.

I really think what KF was getting at was more that to discuss a throw as cripplingly fight ending when the MOST LIKELY outcome is simply to get them on the ground with probably a good slam that'll knock the wind out of them, and create some bumps and bruises and maybe a torn rotator cuff, might be overstating the case. Of course, now they are hopefully on the ground so some judicious running or bootstomping should follow up--mission accomplished.

A throw can end the fight, certainly. No argument with that at all, and I like the idea of TRYING to throw the guy on his head--or, as Water Dragon once mentioned, trying to break his arm as you throw him with an ippon seoi-nage type throw.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Due to my back, I don't play hard



I find it interesting that EVERY SINGLE person I have ever talked to who claims to practice a style that has "crippling throws that end the fight before it gets to the ground" does not practice hard against resisting opponents.

I also find it interesting that those who do practice full-force takedowns (Sambo, BJJ, wrestling, Judo) against resisting opponents universally state that, while a throw MAY end in a debilitating injury, the chances are just a likely that the throw will not stop the fight. Interesting that all of these arts also recognize the need for groundwork after the throw.

[Xebsball]

A "good grappler," has, to my mind, two paramount abilities/qualities in spades.

--Excellent sensitivity to force vectors (energy) when compared to those who do not do a grappling intensive art, on both a visual and tactile level.

--Excellent skill in manipulating those vectors to achieve a desired result, when compared to those who do not do a grappling intensive art.

Those two are in Internal Chinese Martial Arts too.


What I have found in my sparring experiences is that those who have not done a fair bit of REAL grappling (none of this 'we have grappling too!' crap, thanks) is that they have excellent visual sensitivity to force vectors, and are concious of taking angles, distance, timing, lines of attack and defense, and **** poor tactile sensitivity. The problem is that without tactile sensitivity, the above developed qualities are typically negated if the grappler can get hold of something well enough to start manipulating force vectors.

Yeah, true, tactile sensivity is developed in Internal Chinese Martial Arts as well and probably on some External Chinese Martial Arts too.

Sorry if i might have missed or intentionally dodged (would i do that? naaah) the point of your post, but i dont really see relevance in it. It does look to me like the same "grappling is great!! you should do it!!" that i see so many times. Its not a matter of saying this is wrong or right, but its a matter of saying that its been said over and over and over.

[Merryprankster]

It might have been done before. I don't really think I'm adding anything new. But I'd rather have a blase thread that outlines something about what a "grappler" is and isn't, then to start the mess over with grappling supermen (or not).

I personally would love to do some Tai Chi, Bagua, or Hsing Yi. I think it sounds like fun.

Lastly, I don't really care if "a good striking oriented, CMA guy," has the same sort of sensitivity as a good grappler. The post was about the qualities a "good grappler" has, not the qualities cultivated by practicing non-grappling oriented arts. I was just trying to stem off what seemed to be the impending argument about good grappler this, good grappler that. Instead of thinking "gee what to I do against a good grappler," why not query "Hey, here's a set of principles that I have to learn to deal with."

Everybody says "oh, we train that." My sparring experiences outside grappling heavy styles have demonstrated otherwise, EVEN WHEN THE PARTNER WAS GOOD AT THEIR CHOSEN ART. I don't care if somebody goes to learn from an established grappling art or finds the answer in their style and trains diligently to avoid such things.

Quite frankly, that sensitivity, regardless of WHERE it is cultivated, is a **** hard thing to deal with if you don't have it too, because it is inately adaptive.

Sorry to waste electrons. :)

[count]

To me what distinguishes a good grappler from a bad one is the ability to rest in the clinch and conserve energy for explosive techniques. To feel their opponents energy and captilize on their opponents imbalances. Create imbalances through positioning. Keep their center low but not forget about up high. Steel their opponents center and not stop until they finish.


Hmm, sounds like bagua to me :D Just joking! I thought your post was good.

[rogue]

Quite frankly, that sensitivity, regardless of WHERE it is cultivated, is a **** hard thing to deal with if you don't have it too, because it is inately adaptive. Yeah as I found out. It really sux to think you have someone beat right up until he gets a shoulder lock on you. :)

MerryP, I think the internal guys are saying it because grappling seems to play a big part in their systems. I've started Tai Chi about two months ago and it was an eye opener of how much grappling was in the art.


If the answer is yes to either of these, how do you deal with all the crippling injuries that occur?

If the answer is no, how would you know these throws are crippling? Ummm, can I phone a friend Regis? ;)
You can only really know what you know, everything else is guesswork. You may guess right or your guess may be wrong. How far can one go with a technique to see if it works without carrying it to it's conclusion? Another good argument for fight sports IMO.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Great post Merry.
You know, when I came up with "the good grappler (TM)", I was really tired of guys claiming that their grappling tactics gave them security in such and such situation...some are really convinced about it...
But my credo here and in life is that there's no security in a fight. Even when you spar real hard, there is security...
What I feel, and maybe I'm wrong because obviously biased towards striking arts and CMA in particular (if I weren't, I wouldn't sweat and bleed for it that often, would I?), is that it seems more common among grapplers to think they are really safe on the ground or the mount and that NOTHING could get in the way and scramble things a little. Maybe I'm wrong, but then again it's my perception.
What I didn't mention is that I am equally disdainful of "the good CMA". In the sense that people say "you do this, I do that, it always works", or stuffs like "this will work all the time against that". It's equally wrong. It doesn't matter whether it's CMA or grappling.
By no mean I would give YOU the good grappler (TM) treatment. You are an honest MA, and I really enjoy your posts even when I don't agree.
Anyway, I'm going to change my sig on the spot, to reflect my credo since I'm here: risk 0 doesn't exist. Even on the mount, even rolling on the ground. It simply doesn't, and what I dislike about my "good grappler (TM)" dude is that he thinks he is soooooooooooooo untouchable.

Anyway, about the subject of crippling throws, Knife I have to disagree with you on one thing:
In white crane we have throws that are OBVIOUSLY crippling, and in many other styles you have throws that are equally obviously crippling. We don't perform them like they should be though, since we do not want to cripple our partners, evidently...you can't cripple your partners to really verify if the throw was a crippling one. You obviously know you can pierce someone's eye with a fork, even if you haven't tried. Of course, it's much harder to tell which fall could be just a hard one, or a crippling one, I admit.
But we have, for example, a throw that use the torsion of the neck by pushing the chin. And we are supposed to use both hands on the neck to set up the right angle for a break. Of course, when we rehearse it, we push gently. And when we want to use it against a resisting opponent, we transform it and push againt the shoulder instead, after hitting the chin to reach the shoulder.
the same way, we have throws that make people fall on their heads first. They may not be crippling all the time, but no one wants to verify it.
Anyway, I totally agree with you on the matter of resisting opponents: practicing throws as drills is one thing, trying to place them during sparring against an antagonist is a whole other story. And indeed, thinking that the throw alone can be a fight stopper is really not safe: maybe it could, but maybe the guy will just land like that without anything more than a little disorientation. And if you don't keep that in mind, some bad surprises can arise!
The same way risk 0 doesnt exist, 100% success doesn't either.

[Croaker]

Nice post. I'd like to add a couple of things from the standpoint of a Judo guy who has played MMA/Submission for the last five years.

1) Please don't count on a throw ending a duel. There are simply too many variables to a power throw. This is true with both the legal 'sport' moves and the illegal 'street' moves. When you get a guy kicking, punching and doggone squirming your level of control drops precipitously.

2) I did a combative tai-chi class for several years. It actually has quite a bit of low-level standing grappling in it...as do most of the CMA's that I've seen. However, at least in my experience, it wasn't a grappling art. Nor were the practitioners capable of actually 'grappling'. Really, though; it's more of a definition of how far is far.

Merry:

Gotta say, I took some time off late last year and I was thinking of just getting out of it all...and then I saw your pictures of some guard work you posted...couldn't take my eyes off of it (maybe it was just the shine off of the head ;) ). Started right back up again. My wife wouldn't thank you...

[Brad Souders]

I wish someone would give me the good grappler treatment :)

[Merryprankster]

Trust me when I tell you you guys have got me turned on to the internal arts and SC. More later! Rushed!!

[Braden]

The internal arts definitely train sensitivity. Like the classical grappling styles, they strongly emphasize constant contact with the opponent, and it's often remarked that their main difficulty is getting there (up close and in contact).

However, the sensitivity is alot different, at least for the grappling and internals I've seen. Generally, internalists seem very keen on the idea of not putting any of your weight on your partner. Judoka and wrestlers I've seen, relatively speaking, seem to almost hang off their partners while grappling.

Off the topic: rogue -> Welcome to the dark side.

MP, or others -> Can you give any tips on finding a greco-roman wrestling group? The wrestlers around here seem to only train during the school year, and I can't find any reference to greco-roman (although they've competed in G-R rules competitions), or even normal classes. What's the deal? Can a post-high-schooler show up and train greco 'casually' anywhere? Danke.

[Merryprankster]

There aren't that many greco clubs. You might try usawrestling. I am unsure if it is .org or .com though. I want to say that minnesota is a hotbed and so is CA... but don't quote me.

[Xebsball]

ok, MerryP, i was hoping you would at least semi-flip-out with my post...

now back to trolling high school...

[fa_jing]

is the sh!t...Just got back from my 2nd SC seminar, given by our own MonkeySlap Too...ouch, my body hurts--These throws CAN end a fight, especially if the opponent is untrained. But against an experience opponent of similar level, IMO would most likely result in knocking the wind out, maybe fracturing a hip, and you are in a good position having not sacrificed your own balance to get the other guy to the floor. I would be as scared to fight a SC expert just as much as any other CMA expert who specialized in eye-gouging or throat-ripping or whatever. I think that Shaui Chiao is a complicated art, I don't think rank beginners could apply it against a resisting opponent. However, the serious players train very hard and usually in a format with heavy sparring like San Da. Shaui Chiao is a little like judo except that more damage is done. Let's say you unbalance your opponent and throw them with an upper-body throw. As your opponent goes down SC will kick his leg out from under him so his lower body flips into the air, increasing the impact. Some of the throws (not all) will dump you on your head. For these, usually the throw is practiced PAST that point, so that your partner flips over and has a chance to fall without injuring himself.
Did I say ouch already? We must have thrown and been thrown at least 50-75 times in that seminar. We would break off into groups of 6 or 7 and each player would throw everyone else. My thighs hurt from the stancework, too.

[NorthernMantis]

Ok fine but I still say your bjj lineage sucks:D

[sweaty_dog]

Merry Prankster, I have done a little bit of Tai Chi and Ba Gua, it's good but sometimes kind of diluted (as in a lot more for health than fighting) and other times the people you train with can be, well, weird. Some people seem to be attracted to it because they think they will be able to shoot fireballs or something, and they can be a pain to deal with. If you see people doing lots of drills where they try to "freeze" an arm (like an armdrag) or push and pull the other guy off balance then it could be a good place. Check they are not doing an "abbreviated form" with less than 50 moves in it because these places are just doing the Chinese government Aerobics for the Elderly style Tai Chi which is a bit stripped down and best for the old ladies in the park. Also, dealing with traditional Chinese teachers can be awkward, because they will expect things from you that you don't really know about. You could find yourself mopping floors and lion dancing on top of what you pay for lessons (being the entertainment at a Chinese wedding is quite an experience). It can help with all those aches and pains from grappling though which is almost enough in itself.

By the way, Electric Kool Ade Acid Test is a great book!

[Merryprankster]

Ah well, screw that then. I'm nobody's *****. I pay them for a service, and will work hard to learn, but that's it. Done deal.

[Tigerstyle]

Lion Dancing is fun.



"Question, do you have to fall off of a bicycle head first over the handle bars onto the sidewalk to know that you could and probually would get a fractued scull or a concussion a the least??"

Interestingly, when I was 8 or 9, I fell head-first over the handle bars of a bike (my older brother's bike. It was too big for me). I hit forehead first on the street and got scratched up and a good bump there. I know it really doesn't prove anything, but I didn't have a concussion or any serious injury.

OT: I don't have a scar or anything on my head, but to this day it feels strangely relaxing when I press my thumb on the spot where I hit. :)

[KC Elbows]

When I was 17, my best friend was competing in the state gymnastic finals, was warming up, and messed up. He was one of the top ranked gymnasts that year, what he was doing was simple, but he just had one bad moment, mistimed a jump. The first part of his body to touch the ground was his forehead. The next part was his heels. His forehead was still touching at the time.

It took an experimental neck brace to even move him without severing his spinal cord. This was all without the assistance of someone attempting to impart further force, a la, a throw.

I trump your happy anecdote with my morbid one.:p

BTW, today, he's fine. Does kung fu, is in great physical shape, is 32, and knows that throws can be nasty.

There's a reason pads were invented.

[Tigerstyle]

:eek: That's quite scary, KC. I'm a bit freaked out by this. Must calm myself... (pressing thumb to forehead) Aaahhh, feeling better already.


BTW, I happy and relieved to hear about his amazing recovery.

[Xebsball]

i love this ****, lol

[Chang Style Novice]

Invasion of the Body Snatchers is an excellent movie.

And that's an interesting point that was brought up wrt chinese style grappling trying to keep body weight off the opponent. I'm a big guy, so I sort of instinctively try to use my mass in sparring and drills to try and mke things hard on my opponent. For the more inexperienced types it works like a charm, but against my teacher or advanced students I find it to be a counterproductive strategy, because they 'sandwich' me in a hold with their body and a free limb or just move out of the way of my weight, sending me flying.

[Shaolindynasty]

MP- I was alittle cranky the day I put that rolleyes thing there. I usually really enjoy your posts but that one smacked of false humility(somthing I can't stand) It seemed like you were trying to convince us your aren't a superman, and I think you were assuming our opinons of you were more than they are. So saying "hey I suck at such and such... is IMO a little egotistical

[Merryprankster]

Hey I was hungover and grumpy. Cut the man some slack! :)

I'm not big on false humility, I don't think. I don't actually think about humility--it seems an odd thing to think about....

What I was actually trying to do, more than anything, was just say--here's what a good grappler's good at. Sorry if I came off wrong.

[Water Dragon]

Egotistical Ba$tard :D