dragging your rear leg

[Patrick Gordon]

Howdy folks,

I thought I would start a new thread after reading a new post in the "entering with a kick" thread. When you are doing chasing, do you drag your rear leg? If you do, could you explain the reason for this movement? In my line "A. Fong" we step with both feet. You push off with the rear leg, and step up to follow. What other type of stepping do other lines do?

Patrick Gordon.

[Alpha Dog]

nope. not a good way to chase someone, for obvious reasons.

[yuanfen]

After a lot of practice- you just move- like a smoothly operating car..
front drive rear drive... the car just rolls as a unit.

[S.Teebas]

My understanding of such movement, when chasing, is to initiate and move from the centre. The legs simply follow the core of the mass...feels like your just walking down the street..in a way. (obviously not easy to explain over the internet)


In my line "A. Fong" we step with both feet. You push off with the rear leg, and step up to follow.

The way we do it is more flowing than a push and a step catch up. Reason behind this is bacause if you push with the rear leg your using more muscle than is necesserally required to actually move to a new position. eg if your walking down the street you dont NEED to push your way to a new position (if force is directly exerted then your structure and sensitivity should kick in to deal with). Pushing creates tension and limits movement...somthing i dont want to sacrifice when im going up a guy whos bigger, and can push me over if we both use the same power source.

[OdderMensch]

we "drag" our rear leg for a number of reasons.

One is that we use the 100/0 stance, so if I were to "step" by lifting my foot off the ground for a moment I have violted my structure by placeing weight on my front foot.

another reason is that it allows for a "moveing root" I don't have to lose much stability when I step. should someone try to take me down I retain the full advantage of my stance while moveing forward.

this being said there is a right way and a wrong way to preform the "toe ma"

wrong - no bend or insufficent bend in the front knee, dragging your weight along on the edge of the foot, useing "le" or muscular strength.

right - haveing the proper bend to the front knee, feet in line. the front knee lifts slightly as the rear foot "pushs" the front heel hits the ground and the natural tension between the knees pulls your rear leg into place. "dragging" the rear foot on the ball.

Alpha Dog is right it is a terrible way to chase an opponent. But it is a great way to maintain a good root while in contact. other methods of stepping (such as those i mentioned in the other tread) are better suited to crossing the gap, or chasing someone.

but realy, if you have to chase them, do you need to fight them?


yuanfen sez

After a lot of practice- you just move- like a smoothly operating car..front drive rear drive... the car just rolls as a unit.

exactly. Tony (whom Mr. Gorden corectly guessed i'd spoken with) moved just as smothly with his steps as i'd ever seen in our kwoon. diffent steps for diffent roots and weight distributions.

[S.Teebas]

but realy, if you have to chase them, do you need to fight them?

Chasing is about keeping the pressure on.... not running down the street after them!

[OdderMensch]

ok then.

but when I've alreay crossed the gap, I'm in contact, ive found my toe ma is quite able to keep on the other guy. If they step back to quickly, then use the "sueng ma" passing thru step and keep on them. If the can move that much faster backward then I can with toe ma then I need to be doing more to tie up his legs and slow them down. But he only time ive seen someone move that fast backwards they were unable to mount any sort of effective counteratack.

[Patrick Gordon]

[i]Originally posted by S.Teebas

The way we do it is more flowing than a push and a step catch up. Reason behind this is bacause if you push with the rear leg your using more muscle than is necesserally required to actually move to a new position. eg if your walking down the street you dont NEED to push your way to a new position (if force is directly exerted then your structure and sensitivity should kick in to deal with). Pushing creates tension and limits movement...somthing i dont want to sacrifice when im going up a guy whos bigger, and can push me over if we both use the same power source. [/B]

If you are in a 50/50 stance, in order to move the front foot, you will need to push with the rear. Because you are not steping through alternating legs, "as you said, walking" there must be some sort of push, just enough to step. You are trying to keep the zero point the same. The zero point will change because of movement, but you always return to it. The push is not overemphasized, just a natural movement. If the distance to far, then we step through.

BTW, thanks for clearing up the chasing idea with...Texas guy?

patrick Gordon.

[Patrick Gordon]

Quote:

another reason is that it allows for a "moveing root" I don't have to lose much stability when I step. should someone try to take me down I retain the full advantage of my stance while moveing forward.


Rooting is not being stuck to the floor. Once you know the mechanics and are able to root yourself, you should be able to be in any position rooted. When you step, you will not loose your root because you have lifted the feet, otherwise Wing Chun would not have multi-directional footwork. We would just stay put or drag ourselves to our opponent.

patrick Gordon.

[Patrick Gordon]

Quote:

One is that we use the 100/0 stance, so if I were to "step" by lifting my foot off the ground for a moment I have violted my structure by placeing weight on my front foot.


You cannot avoid placing weight on your front foot in order to move. Otherwise you would be hopping on one leg. I understand you want to keep your 100/0 stance, but you must alternate weight distrabution in order to move yourself. Am I correct or do you folks do it some way I have never seen?

Patrick Gordon.

[OdderMensch]

just call me Sean.




I understand you want to keep your 100/0 stance, but you must alternate weight distrabution in order to move yourself. Am I correct or do you folks do it some way I have never seen?

we must do it in some way you've never seen. :D

I'm not certain how to better describe it on the forum but when we preform toe ma our weight stays on the rear leg. its the tension between the knees that move you, but thats tension not "le" or muscular force.

while my weight goes forward some it never goes to the front foot.

while I understand it is possible to root from any (well nearly any) position, and that rooting is not "being stuck to the floor" I belive my stance has other advantages than just the "root" ie its ability to alter its position, use multi directional steping and kick freely.

were I (in my stance) to lift the rear leg in order to step, I could no longer kick with the front leg, respond with chi gerk to sudden kicking attacks or alter the position of the front foot in order to step off the line and resume my attack at a better angle.

[old jong]

As I picture it, dragging the rear leg could be compared to a tractor truck pulling it's rig!...The front leg is the tractor and the rear leg who is carrying the "load" ;) is the rig.
In a 50/50 system like A.Fong's, it could be compared to a 4wd vehicle. ;)

[yuanfen]

Sometimes like your logo "passing through"!

[EnterTheWhip]

Great for take downs.

[Matrix]

Patrick,

I would say that if you are chasing the opponent or closing a wider gap, you would not be dragging the rear leg, but use the method that you've described. If I needed to move in a short distance ( i.e. a couple of inches) I might use the rear leg drag.

Matrix

[Patrick Gordon]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Great for take downs.

ETW,

What is great for takedowns?

Patrick Gordon.

[Patrick Gordon]

Originally posted by Matrix
Patrick,

If I needed to move in a short distance ( i.e. a couple of inches) I might use the rear leg drag.

Matrix

I would still consider it a step. A step is a step, a drag is a drag. IF I were only moving a couple of inches, it is just a very short step. When doing exchanges with an opponent, your feet are continually making adjustments. You should step the way you were taught. If you learned step, then step.

Patrick Gordon.

[Patrick Gordon]

Originally posted by old jong
As I picture it, dragging the rear leg could be compared to a tractor truck pulling it's rig!...The front leg is the tractor and the rear leg who is carrying the "load" ;) is the rig.
In a 50/50 system like A.Fong's, it could be compared to a 4wd vehicle. ;)

Very nice, I will have to use that one. Who is your teacher? He must be great!

Patrick Gordon.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Patrick Gordon.... that was a funny joke. (i hope you were joking)

[OdderMensch]

yeah i like that analogy jong 'ole boy. a better explaination would take posting some pics or mpegs. (or better yet meeting)

As for takedowns, I feel that while i'm not imune to being takendown, I'm hardly suceptable to them. While I can't "sprawl" I have a fair chance to avoid, or take advantage of takedowns.

I learn to "drag" :D but I can see where you would be right about not draging in a 50/50 relationship.

[12345]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OdderMensch
[B]just call me Sean.

I'm not certain how to better describe it on the forum but when we preform toe ma our weight stays on the rear leg. its the tension between the knees that move you, but thats tension not "le" or muscular force.

while my weight goes forward some it never goes to the front foot."

--------------------------------------------------------------
I think Patrick was right first time - you must be putting weight on your front foot otherwise you could not move. If you stand on a set of bathroom scales with the back foot and press on the floor with the front - as you must because you could not move without leverage - then you will find the scales register your weight as less that in actually is because your front foot is taking some of it.

Either that or you are sliding James Brown style.

It's questionable whether you can move without muscular force too.

[old jong]

"Very nice, I will have to use that one. Who is your teacher? He must be great!"

Hey!...I have to agree with you!...You should meet him! ;)

[EnterTheWhip]

Dragging the foot is great for takedowns.

[OdderMensch]

git up, git on up.....

(sorry thats my best internet bassed James Brown inpersonation.)

12345 - as i've said before I a)don't transfer weight (in any signifigent amount) to the front leg and b) can give no better descripion then I gave already, coupled with old jongs excelet analogy.

as for how i can move without muscular force....practice, practice, practice. its the same way you learn to hit "without" muscular force. yes your musscles activate, but thats not the "primary" source of movment, or power in WC.

[Patrick Gordon]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Dragging the foot is great for takedowns.

Sorry for the confussion, but I am still unsure what you mean.

The person dragging the foot can easily do takedowns or the person dragging the foot can be easily taken down?

Explain more.

A confused Canadian, who ever heard of it?

Patrick Gordon.

[Matrix]

Patrick,

This is standard EnterTheWhippingHand crytpo-speak. The air is very thin On Top of Wing Chun Mountain, so I guess he needs to conserve his energy. ;)

I believe he means dragging your foot to take the opponent down.

Matrix

[EnterTheWhip]

Very good Matrix! You must be disciple #JO8974?

[12345]

Oddermensch - I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong - but I think your description of what you are doing is fundamentally mistaken.

If your weight is not on your front foot and you are moving then you are not dragging your back foot. If you were dragging your back foot that would imply something was pulling it along. You talk about tension but unless your front foot is anchored to the ground (eg by weight) then you can't possibly be dragging your back foot - that is physics. You might just as well say there is no weight on your back foot but you are able to push your front foot along - they are both equally impossible. You can't create tension unless you are anchored - if your front foot is not anchored then you can't drag you back foot along. If you really have no weight on your front foot then you are hopping.

I am guessing that what you mean is you do not shift your body over your front foot but you press down with your front leg through the foot in order to create the leverage to drag the back one - I see nothing wrong in that but it is putting weight on your front foot.

When you talk about punching without muscular force that is a red herring. You are punching without unnecessary muscular tension - you are still using muscular force. You may have learnt to use that force in an exceptionally efficient way - making the most of your muscles. You may be backing it up with something additional through your structure - allowing other muscles to come into play - but you are still punching with muscular force and it is still primary - you are just making the most of it.

[OdderMensch]

my description is the best I am able without just showing you. the crux of it is that I am taught not to transfer my wieght to my front foot, then back onto my rear foot in ordder to move slightly forward.

as for the "without musscle" thing, yes thats what i mean, in the same way you punch "without musscle" you step "without musscle"

its late, i'll try to post more tommorow.