wt & latosa escrima

[IRONMONK]

I am training in WT and im interested in learning Latosa escrima(i love weapons!!)
however i have tried an escrima classess before and i found it very difficult.The footwork was completely different from WT (i kept using WT stances 100-0 weight etc and getting mixed up)
I do want to do escrima but i want to get good at WT and i dont want my WT messed up.should i just concentrate on my WT ?
does anyone have similar problem when learning othr styles?
or if u practice enought u will know naturally when u got weapon in ur hand u will use escrima and when ur unarmed u will use WT?

[yuanfen]

fwiw- escrima and wt is a organizational alliance.

With good wc- one does not need escima- sticks will fly!

[yenhoi]

yuanfen is right, sticks are not needed. Although, it is 'gute' to have familarized yourself for sticks and stick-like weapons if you are training for self-defense.

They are also fun!

Aso for integrating footwork, you might want to do some research on the various (filipino) stick-methods, as many of them teach a 0-100 stance, or at some point have a 0-100 stance in the system.

Also, remember that at some point in your wing-chun training, you might/should move onto the butterfly knives.

[TjD]

i'd stick with wing chun :) the butterfly knives are amazing... i cant imagine needing another weapon (except a gun :confused: )

[cobra]

I understand what you're saying, I did the same for a while and really enjoyed the Escrima, it is a lot of fun and gives you a good perspective on what can be done with a stick. I decided to just stick with the WT for now as I want to concentrate all my efforts on WingTsun. I agree with the comment on the broadswords; athough, it takes a while in our system to get to that point. I realize that all systems are not set up like this, but the teaching methods so far are working just fine and I am more than happy with my progress so I'll just keep on keeping on.

[TjD]

i'd hope most would wait awhile before teaching the bat jaam do... but its well worth the wait :)

[AndrewP]

I have no experience in either escrima or wc knives. But let me ask for clarity's sake. Are people saying that the wc knife training is as good or better than escrima training? Meaning if one escrima and one wc knife person with the same amount of training went at it that the two people would be more or less equal? If so, please elaborate.

Thanks!

Andrew P

[yuanfen]

I have actually atteneded a Latosa seminar. their footwork at that time was reallya western boxing footwork- not wc anyway.
Many southern Chinese arts including wing chun have a different approach from the Filipino arts. the former tend to train the hands first and the weapons become adaptations. The latter assumes that starting with the weapons arts will develop the hands. I opted for the former (wing chun).. even though the bat jam do comes late...first rate hands trainining provides the basis for sticks as well---using(and adpting) wing chun stances and footwork.

[TjD]

after training in WC, when i started learning the knives it became quickly apparent that they were the perfect weapon for me. they are the perfect weapon to be holding in your hands if you know wing chun :)

my sifu sometimes muses that the purpose of wing chun is to train the knives. i dont really believe that, but i can totally see it :)

i'd opt for wing chun over escrima, just for the fact that it emphasizes breaking down and perfecting each motion. it allows you have a perfect foundation for your house to be built upon. it trains you from your head to your toe, and culminates in the knives.

starting with sticks may be quicker, and more fun sooner, but i think the path that wing chun follows gives more of a well rounded benefit.

as to which is better in application? i couldnt say; depends on who trains harder :rolleyes:

[Nichiren]

I would definitely go for escrima if I practised LTWT. It takes up to (or atleast) 10 years of training before a student even gets to smell the wc knives in LTWT.

/Cheers

[black and blue]

"It takes up to (or atleast) 10 years of training before a student even gets to smell the wc knives in LTWT."

----------------------------------------------------------------

What's the Wing Chun World coming to? Doesn't hard work and natural talent (not claiming I have it) have a say? 10 years +.... :rolleyes:

[AdrianUK]

Ok since I trained in latosa for nearly 2 years at monthly seminars and have been in WT for 4 years I think I can comment. The footwork in latosa escrima was very different but I did not find a problem switching between the 2, I don't know of anyone that did at the time. I currently do sticks / knives with the scientific fighting congress (mixed filipino / japanese / silat) and again the footwork is not 0-100 but its fine. I have never done the knives in WT but certainly when swinging sticks or swords I am comfortable with the 50-50 weight I used in latosa. As for the WT so far (7th student grade) nothing I have done would help in a serious knife assault, though probably would help if they stood and waved the knife at me. Will I continue to train in both ? YES

[cobra]

I've got the rest of my life to learn WingTsun, so why should I try to learn it all this week. I'm quite pleased with the teaching methods we use and can see that they work. Besides, I don't see myself walking down the street any time soon carrying broadswords. Hard work and natural talent do make a difference, and in most cases it just takes time to condition your mind to do WT. Hurry it up too much and it doesn't work. Of course, the more hard work and you get better faster. "It is better to have a few very sharp swords, than a whole truckload of butter knives."

[AndrewS]

Iron- do you have real name I could use?

WT and escrima- the two systems are extraordinarily complementary in terms of body mechanics and strategy, and bits of each are hidden within each other. Personally, I've found the 4-5 hrs a week I've spent on escrima for the last two years incredibly helpful for my WT (having trained it intermittently for half a year or so a few years prior). It places a lens on certain skills and mechanics much the way chi sao and lat sao do (different skills though).

Transition between the two systems takes some work and may confuse you a bit. Life is hard, do the work, it'll pay off. The first year or so I did escrima, which ever art I practiced first would bleed into my mechanics for the first 10-15 minutes of practicing the other. That's not really an issue now. Generally students who do both are markedly better with their WT (though they are also people who train more, on the whole).

As to applying and getting 'confused' - little is contradictory between the two systems. It's actually pretty easy to transition from one to the other, and there are some tools, I'd prefer to use escrima for, over WT (like going empty hand vs. weapons).

Practically speaking- once you do escrima, mentally, everything you pick up is a weapon, and it seems to lend that quality to empty hands. As escrima doesn't presume a blade, it teaches you to be dangerous with nearly anything- force expression differing for blunt and edged weapons.

Later,

Andrew
EBMAS

[black and blue]

Sure... spend the rest of your life training and perfecting Wing Chun. I certainly hope to.

What I don't want is to spend the rest of my life WAITING to learn Wing Chun. I don't expect to be taught the whole system in a week, but I also don't expect to be old and grey before someone says: "Okay, now, after your 10-15 years of study... you are ready for the Pole!"

My limited experience with a Leung Ting club (WT) a few years back was good. My only critique is the set-in-stone approach. 10 + years before the knives is taking the p*ss, mate.

[Nichiren]

Amen to that B&B...

/Cheers

[cobra]

I don't think it is set in stone, but a reasonable estimate based on past students progress and the amount of time it takes to internalize what you've learned. That's my unnofficial opinion, of course. As long as I can continue to learn and improve and receive corrections like I have for the last 3 years, I see no reason to worry about the pole. Sure, I'd like to learn the pole, but I've got my hands full with the program I'm on now, trying to learn it.

[BeiKongHui]

What I don't want is to spend the rest of my life WAITING to learn Wing Chun. I don't expect to be taught the whole system in a week, but I also don't expect to be old and grey before someone says: "Okay, now, after your 10-15 years of study... you are ready for the Pole!"

Only 15 years? The guys I am working out with wait 10 to teach the jong! I can't imagine how long it'd take to get to the pole and knives.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

When I was active with WT I also started to train in Latosa Escrima. However, I had about 2-3 years of Wing Chun/Wing Tsun under my belt first. I see nothing wrong with learning a FMA and allowing exposure to it to open your eyes to some of the deeper things found within Wing Chun. There are indeed many similarities just as there are many differences. The key is to be able to discern what is of benefit and "integrate", I love that word now :D , what is useful into your Wing Chun. However, I have always stated that while I am a proponent of cross training to a degree, I fully believe one shoudl have a strong and solid foundation in ones chosen art first. Then, whatever you try to integrate should be bult upon the foundation of your core system. For me, Latosa Escrima was not what I was looking for. Added to the fact that some of the initial footwork and body mechanics were not to my likeing, was the issue of continued training. Much of the further training was reliant on seminars which took place not too often. I opted to go for the Pekiti Tirisia system instead. I found this art to go hand in hand with my Wing Chun. By exploring this art I would hope to be able to say my Wing Chun has been elevated. When I play the sticks with my friend and partner he does Pekiti Tirsia while my movement are more akin to Wing Chun with sticks. There are several things to keep in mind. The method and angle of striking with a stick will differ, if even slighlty, from when using a blade. But, as long as you know and understand this there is no problem.

As a final note I am reminded of a story I heard, or read once. Sum Nung was reported to have met an Escrimador and upon observing this person practicing with his sticks. Sum Nung "practiced" with this person and defeated him. After doing so he gave the sticks back to the guy and said something to the effect of "Nice sticks, practice more". I do not know if this is true or not but it does help to illustrate that a truly good/great exponent of any art may be quite formidable. There is also the story of Okinowan Masters visiting China and picking up weapons they had never seen before and weilding them like Masters with many years experience. They could only do this by understanding the concepts behind the weapon and transcending the "technique".

Forgive the length of this post, I had a little time to kill.

Peace,

Dave

[black and blue]

10 years to teach the jong? This isn't Tai Chi. Maybe this is why the Chinese live so long... the desire to learn the last set in their Kung Fu system is so strong they simply refuse to pop their clogs.

:rolleyes:

Too many money spinners in Wing Chun I think. As said before, it may take a lifetime to perfect WC, but it shouldn't take a lifetime to learn the system. I hope this 'decade before the jong' was a horrible joke, BeiKongHui.

[Tristan]

10 years to teach the jong? This isn't Tai Chi. Maybe this is why the Chinese live so long..........
......As said before, it may take a lifetime to perfect WC, but it shouldn't take a lifetime to learn the system. I hope this 'decade before the jong' was a horrible joke, BeiKongHui.

This is no exception within the WT-org. It usally takes 15+ years before the weapons are being taught. But as said before, most practicioners are comfortable with this.It´s sure worthwhile waiting for!
Regarding to escrima footwork: Latosa escrima can also be practiced using the dubble knive footwork, which makes the escrima more complementary to the Wing Tsun concept.

T.

[Mr. Bao]

studying more than one study is very different than practicing two styles.

I believe that a person should focus and practice one method first and build a firm foundation. However, this doesn't mean I can not study the theories and tactics of other systems.

If you want to gain any true (kung fu / gong lik) skill, you should focus your time and energy into one art. I am assuming you want to gain mastery of the wing chun? If not then I see no harm in doing chop suey and exploring yourself.

I mean if you have unlimited amount of time and can study many arts with equal intensity than I am jealous. But more power to you brother. But if your time is limited then please try to focus on your art and build something of great merit and accomplishment.

Bao