i want to clarify my stance on things here.....

[The Willow Sword]

there has been a thread that has sparked some serious debates and i have joined in in a serious manner sharing my thoughts and philosophy. usually i am a jokester here and not to be taken seriouslt at times.
let me just give you my Bio and my philosophy, so that there is no confusion as to the type of martial artsist that i am.
first of all i CLAIM NO MASTERY over anything that i have done,, and i certainly do not think that i am ABOVE ANYONE ELSE HERE in these forums. i cannot control how you guys percieve my writings here so i just want to make sure that when next i do give my views and opinions that they are not misconstrued as me being superior to any of you,,FOR I DO NOT FEEL THAT WAY AT ALL AND WILL STATE MY LIFE ON THAT.

I started martial arts at the age of 14 where i took classes in Aikido. i didnot stay with aikido for very long but i reached a point in aikido where i could be thrown and be able to fall or roll correctly.
i then started taking standard Karate classes(shotokan) this was thourgh a boyfriend of my mothers at the time, that only lasted a few months.

in the period between 17-20 i was reading books watching videos and practicing what i could from bits and pieces here and there, from people willing to show me anything.

in 1992 i met my first real teacher, master eric nessen who was a disciple of dr. john Ng in the 70's. he was a personal friend of my fathers and began teaching me privately, praying mantis and aspects of hsingi pakua and taichi as well as some qigong healing work.
in 1994 i went to school in texas for anotomy and physiology and massage therapy and studied alternative eastern therapies here in austin as well as in kentucky(where master eric taught me)
1995 i permanently moved austin tx and was given permission by eric to find another scholl with which i could still continue to learn. i then found master joe shaefer who started the shaolin do martial arts academy and joined his school in september of 95 and was there until just recently, 2002.
there i learned the sd curriculum and the side curriculumn of tai chi pakua and hsing i and focused mainly on that. i earned the level of 2nd degree black belt there and am certified to teach the curriculum.

THROUGH OUT ALL OF THIS i was taught and have maintained the philosophy of utilizing martial arts as a means of self preservation,,,health,,longevity,,and community.
i do not fight for sport ,,i was never really interested in tournaments, even though i went to some,,sd and aau tourneys,where i won 1st place one year in mens advanced sparring and took silver medal in empty hand forms and bronze in weapons forms.

i am an internalist and have ALWAYS BEEN one. i grew up an abused kid and the only thing that saved me was martial arts. that is why i do not like sport fighting nor do i like the brutalization of martial arts to suit the needs of the tournament or the ego mindset(i am not devoid of ego).
if i seem self riteous it is becuase i am CONFIDENT in who and what i have become as a martial artist and i feel as though i have some sound wisdom to offer based on my experience.
i have worked with troubled kids ADD kids, abused women,,and adults children and teenagers from all walks of life.
i have been a bouncer at a club at one time and have been in scraps where i have come out on top and where i have gotten my a$$ kicked.
again through out ALL of these experiences i have maintained the philosophy that martial arts is about preserving life and being healthy and disciplined. i was never taught and it is my contention that martial arts should NOT be taught for sport such as UFC,,and no holds barred competition. i feel these endevours to be a WASTE of energy time and ones life.
i respect ALL forms of martial arts even the BJJ and the MMA's
martial arts is constantly evolving and these arts should be respects as much as the wushu and others,,,,even though i have some opinions based on effectiveness of martial arts systems.
what i do not respect are the politics and BS conatined within martial arts circles here in this country and that is ONE of the reasons why i left SD.
if i come of brash sometimes about certain aspects of things it is because i am very passionate in my ethics.
i am a clown to a degree and sometimes my words can be like a dagger. i am human and anger is something that comes easily to me(as in i wont take anybodys $hit),,but love ,compassion and joy supercedes my anger and that i have ERic and another person to thank(whom i will not mention) for that discipline.
that is all i have to write about me. i will continue to post here and offer my thoughts jokes and other insights.

Many Respects,,,The Willow Sword

[SDriver]

No worries, man. Just understand that where martial arts served the needs of your psyche in one way, they serve other people's needs in different ways.

Luckily, we don't have to agree. :)

[old jong]

As long as YOU get what you need from martial arts and feel good with yourself!....;)No problems!

[guohuen]

I think people have criticised your not wanting to sport fight to justify thier own need for violence, or more probably violent fantasies. In combat the biggest blowhards were the first ones to wet themseves, cry or run.

[Serpent]

I didn't read your post. Far too long in comparison with how much I care. But kudos for thinking it was worth it. Doesn't matter what you stand for, people will rip you apart for slaying their sacred cows and kiss your ass if you happen to share their opinion. Such is the forum's nature.

Say what you like and be done with it. ;)

[jimmy23]

" i have maintained the philosophy that martial arts is about preserving life and being healthy and disciplined. i was never taught and it is my contention that martial arts should NOT be taught for sport such as UFC,,and no holds barred competition. i feel these endevours to be a WASTE of energy time and ones life. "

so, what exactly does the "martial" part of "martial art" stand for?

"I think people have criticised your not wanting to sport fight "

why is there this contention that everyone who practices MMA fights, and thus our criticsms of TMA guys is because they dont fight?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by jimmy23
why is there this contention that everyone who practices MMA fights, and thus our criticsms of TMA guys is because they dont fight?

Usually the definition of MMA is someone that trains for sport fighting.

Otherwise, everyone is an MMAer as no martial art is untouched by influence from other styles. Therefore, all martial arts are, in essence, a combination of the best of what came before, making them essentially MMA's!

However, if you train in the aspects required for sport fighting, especially having a high concentration on grappling, then you're an MMAer by modern definition. Lots of grappling training is unnecessary for the street.

Flame on.

[jimmy23]

"Usually the definition of MMA is someone that trains for sport fighting. "

hmm, I would define it as someone who trains in a live enviroment for every range of combat

"Lots of grappling training is unnecessary for the street."

nope, wrong answer

[Serpent]

Nope, right answer, depending on your paradigm.

The grappling you definitely need is:

1. Avoiding takedowns.

2. Once taken down, how to escape and get back up.

In an MMA arena you need and can use all sorts of submissions and control techniques. Do that on the street and get your head stomped, your back lacerated with broken glass, etc.

Therefore, lots of grappling training is unnecessary for the street. By lots, I mean in variety, not lots of practice. Everything you do requires lots of practice.



"Usually the definition of MMA is someone that trains for sport fighting. "

hmm, I would define it as someone who trains in a live enviroment for every range of combat


Every proper martial art class should do this, regardless of style and regardless of where those skills are likely to be used.

[jimmy23]

youre talking about groundfigthing, not grappling. Clench work is grappling, and push hands and trapping are limeted (IMO) variations on this theme. You would be surprised how much of a good sportifhgters training deals with the standing clench, how to use it, it svariations, how to do strikes and takedowns from it, etc.

[Serpent]

OK, good old semantics. In that case, I am talking about groundfighting. Apologies if that wasn't clear, my mistake.

[jimmy23]

goddness, my typing gets bad after a few beers late at night!

[Former castleva]

Thanks for the introduction,I liked the post.
You have certainly had some special jokes,some of which I don´t understand.
:)

[Ryu]

:rolleyes:

Well I think you're both wrong in that sense. Groundfighting can be used in a streetfight depending on what scenario you're faced with. Streetfights are taped all the time, and you can see lots of on the ground grappling in them.

This stuff about the lacerations on the back from broken glass, and multiple opponents is not only a tired argument, but faulty as well.

If I take you down in a streetfight, I will NOT be on my back. I will slam you down, knock the wind out of you, blast you with strikes and headbutts, and then stand up and kick you in the head.

That's "street grappling." And you can see a large portion of real streetfights (even involving multiple opponents and glass) ending that way.

Ryu

[GreyMystik]

you're assuming that YOU take THEM down, but what of the reverse? then you could end up on your back... not a pleasant spot to be in if his buddies appear wanting to kick your head in...

[jimmy23]

to be hgonest, if lacerations on the back will inhibit you, forget about winning a fight anyway, because a bloody nose or black eye will drain your will to fight just as fast.


If you cant fight off your back, you wont be able to regain your feet if (when ) you end up there.

[Ryu]

Originally posted by GreyMystik
you're assuming that YOU take THEM down, but what of the reverse? then you could end up on your back... not a pleasant spot to be in if his buddies appear wanting to kick your head in...

;) Well of course! This is why knowing how to fight off your back (as Jimmy is stating) is so important. I don't want to look for a triangle there. I want to get on TOP or back to my FEET. :)
Knowing how to fight from and use "guard" gives you the ability to reverse and escape easily against a non-grappler.

Ryu

[rogue]

And if anybody knows about how banged up your knees can get in a barfight it's Ryu!:D

[apoweyn]

that's incredible. i can barely believe how quickly this morphed into another debate about grappling on the streets. we are a rare talent on this forum.

as for the willow sword, i can totally respect your explanation. and your convictions. however, it seems odd to say in one paragraph that you don't consider yourself better than anyone else and express in another paragraph that you have strong moral objections to people who train for competition (i.e., they do it for ego gratification, which is true to varying degrees). that's kind of the nature of moral judgments, isn't it? you're making a statement about another person's actions in relation to what you believe to be right or wrong.

now we all make those sorts of judgments. i can't condemn you for that. but just understand that you're bound to draw flak for making those moral judgments on other people. and understand that the flak you receive is going to be every bit as valid and justified as your initial reaction is. it's the nature of communication.

anyway, i can respect your honesty, even if i disagree with your message.


stuart b.

[The Willow Sword]

to what those guys do doenst mean that i think that they are bad people. i have found that when people are confronted with a moral standpoint or something of that nature. they tend to want to justify themselves to make themselves feel better about what they are doing. for instance: you tell a smoker that it is bad to smoke,,it causes cancer,,you may make someone sick with your second hand smoke,,and they get all huffy and say something like" well gol dangit i live in a free country its my right ta smoke if i want to" and its true they live in a free country but ,,does that mean that for thier freedom a person has to die miserably or get cancer and die miserably just so a smoker can enjoy his/her cigarette?

same thing with how i feel about sport fighting and my morals counterring it. but i really do not think that i am alone in this philososphy,,,maybe i am the only one at this point to voice it in such a way that it rings a bell or ****es someone off,,,,at any rate it gets you thinking, how YOU think beyond that is up to you.

note: i do not think that sport fighting causes cancer:rolleyes:

or that watching sport fighting causes cancer:rolleyes:

Many Respects,,,The Willow Sword

[Merryprankster]

Actually, my objection to your posts is only one thing. You are fully entitled to your opinion that sportfighting is morally improper, and that those that compete in it are doing so, on the whole, for some sort of ego-boost or material gain.

However, you are NOT entitled to make the blanket assertion that those of us who compete are all doing it for ego or material gain. You certainly aren't entitled to tell me what my mindset is or isn't when I box, wrestle, do BJJ or fight MMA, any more than I'm entitled to tell you what your mindset is when you practice KF.

You're the one that kept telling ME what I "must be thinking/feeling," when I compete. I went to rather great pains to demonstrate that I compete because it's fun, outlining that if I were SO concerned about my ego, I wouldn't constantly go to tournaments where I could have my ass handed to me.

Sorry, but I'm not going to join the love-in that happened here, as though that just wipes everything clean. I'm glad you're a good person and that you found success and fullfilment through the MA, but that doesn't mean you're right.

[The Willow Sword]

so you like getting in the ring and beating up people because its "Fun"?

Many respects,,The Willow Sword

[Merryprankster]

You like sparring hard in the kwoon and beating up people because it's "fun?"

[apoweyn]

willow sword,

that's precisely the sort of statement that makes you sound elitist and judgmental.

you're not the only person that feels this way or that expresses as much. but those other people take as much heat for it as you do.

and, no, we're all clear that MMA doesn't cause cancer.

but while we're using your cigarette analogy:

a smoker claims that it's a free country and that he should be allowed to smoke. you object, claiming that it causes cancer. but he justifies it morally anyway.

you're doing the same thing. you're reserving your right to do something (be it smoking or expressing a moral viewpoint in less than diplomatic terms). and it doesn't matter to you that you're actions are upsetting to some of those around you.

i'm not saying knock it off. i'm saying deal with the consequences. you have a strong opinion. great. but there's karma. that's life.


stuart b.

[rogue]

that's precisely the sort of statement that makes you sound elitist and judgmental. That's because he is elitist and judgmental. ;) Sorry Willow Sword but you contradict yourself.

[The Willow Sword]

i dont beat up people in the kwoon PERIOD. and i dont spar because i think its fun. playing Xbox now THATS FUN.

elitist and judgemental. well yes i guess that i am elitist and judgemental. who here isnt?

and as far as upsetting people,,,yeah i do that dont i. or maybe they are upsetting themselves.
who knows but HEY ,, this thread has gone on long enough. i want to go back to being the clown again and making fun of people. its a whole lot better than this diatribe thats going on.

"lights a match, F$rts, BOOM speeds away in to the wild blue yonder" ta taaaa

Many Respects,,,The Willow Sword:p

[Ryu]

must resist.... urge.... to try and find middle path.... through logic and philo.... aaa..

:D
Moral Judgments. Moral judgments are important to human beings and human society. Period. Without these, society basically ends. There's no real way around that.

The difficult thing about making moral judgments is that the circumstances, scenario, and mindset (motivations) really have to be understood and studied to come up with a logical, and educated opinion on what is truly the "right" path to take.
This isn't easy at all.
Let's start with something rather easy. Rape. Few would argue that the action of rape is "wrong." However, let's twist the motivation and scenario a bit.
Suppose a soldier in a war is with a platoon (for whatever reason) that is going to rape a woman they have detained. The soldier refuses, and will not harm the woman in any way. The platoon gives an ultimatum. Rape the woman, or the platoon will cut her into pieces on the spot. Now, for a moment put aside the Billy Jack and Judge Dread fantasies, and accept the black and whiteness of the situation. If he doesn't "rape" her then she will be killed instantly. To protect her from death, the soldier complies. Now... is this wrong? What is the right path to take? It's an incredibly loaded and difficult question, but that is the nature of motivation and moral judgments.

I have always said that motivation plays a large part in what makes something right or wrong. It's not the only thing to keep in mind, but a strong one.

Can you truly claim to know the motivations behind every competitor's actions? I'm not saying you cannot find out, but to do so takes immense understanding of a lot of factors. Right and wrong exist. I absolutely believe that. I also believe that just because someone thinks something is "right" for him, doesn't make that true either.

But one thing is clear. When anyone wants to make a moral judgment on anything...they MUST have the ability to defend that judgment with logic, understanding, cultural awareness, education, experience, etc. etc. Making judgments are easy.
To truly make the "right" judgment takes a lot of hard work at times. :)

Ryu

[apoweyn]

willow sword,


elitist and judgemental. well yes i guess that i am elitist and judgemental. who here isnt?

i'll give ya a shiney nickle if you can find one instance in which i told someone that their martial practice was morally flawed.


and as far as upsetting people,,,yeah i do that dont i. or maybe they are upsetting themselves.

am i the only one reminded of an SNL skit starring jimmy smits? he played an overly philosophical cop who responded to everything by turning it around.

partner: well, jimmy, looks like we've wrapped up that case.
jimmy: yes... or did it wrap us up?


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

First I'm going to make a quick comment about your martial practice, then I'm going to start.

You've NEVER beat anybody up in the kwoon? Haven't received any beatings yourself? Never got the wobbles from a kick or a punch, elbow, headbutt, knee or throw while sparring?

Then you're doing it wrong.

Now, on with it.

I don't get in the ring because I like beating people up. I get in the ring because I enjoy this brand of competition. I like the adrenaline rush of going toe to toe with somebody and challenging myself to rise to the occasion. I felt the same way when I was getting ready for Choral competition, Shotput and Discus, wrestling, and the Academic Team. I'm just highly competitive. So sue me. Along with that comes learning how to lose gracefully and using it to get better because if you compete a lot, you eventually lose. Sometimes in spectacular manner that makes your friends feel for you. After you get over it you go out and have a beer and laugh about it, vowing in the back of your head, that next time, you'll make it a FIGHT.

If I truly enjoyed physically hurting people, I wouldn't compete in sportfighting of any sort. Sportfighting has rules designed to create a fair fight that avoids, as much as practicable, serious injury, while giving both fighters an opportunity to win. If I really enjoyed hurting people, I would go out to bars and pick fights with people smaller than me who I felt I could physically intimidate or dominate. I would be a bully. I would never compete in a fair competition because my goal would be to hurt somebody as much as possible and come out on top every time. I would never WANT to be in a fair competition, because it would inhibit my ability to inflict damage, and increase the chances that I could get hurt too.

If I truly enjoyed hurting people I would never compete in wrestling or BJJ. While injuries are part of the game, and you do want to make the other guy as uncomfortable as possible, you are ultimately responsible for the other person's safety. You may not slam in either wrestling or BJJ. A good hard takedown is one thing, but slamming, quite another. You are not allowed to execute certain holds in both sports due to the risk of injury. Improper application of certain holds will get you disqualified. Bad sportsmanship in the form of intentionally causing physical damage when it could be avoided (accidents truly do happen--can't help it if the takedown seperates a shoulder) will get you disqualified. If hurting people were my modus, then I would be disqualified every match.

There is a difference, which you seem to fail to recognize between good hard competition, and wanting to hurt the other guy. The difference is malice. Randy Couture is one of the most respectful people in the world. He holds no rancor for his opponents in any fight. Alexander Karelin was heavily feared for his freakish strength, great skill, and ability to put people out of commission with a throw, but universally respected for his fair play and for being a gentleman. If you'd ever competed for real, before, you would know when things "change," in a person when they truly want to do you harm at any cost. The energy they have is different. I wish I could describe it--it's the non-verbal equivalent of saying "I'm going to hurt you," rather then "I'm here to take my best shot at beating you for the next few minutes." Those of you who train properly will know exactly what I am talking about. These people are thugs, and if they are good, they will be feared, not for their abilities, but for the careless damage they may cause you. They will never be respected, except by other thugs. How many people actually respect Mike Tyson?

If my ego were at stake I would not seek out higher levels of competition. I would look for the easiest, most beatable competition around. I would ensure I didn't compete unless I was certain I could win. I certainly, at 195 and 6' in College (I lifted more then...) would not have competed in the shotput and the discus! I would always pick the least skilled partners to train with so I could win. I'd lie about my belt rank at tournaments to ensure I competed against less skilled competitors. I'd find some way to avoid losing, be it disqualification or just pussing out. I get no material gain from winning, and pay to compete.

Lastly, the ring is a place to get better. There is only so much competition available in a school, and only so many contacts you can make--only so many "fresh eyes." And before too long, those eyes are no longer fresh. You all get used to each other. The ring is nothing more than a venue to bring sparring partners together to test their skills against each other, in earnest, with no malice or anger involved. You get exposed to different styles, methods and timing. Different ways of doing things, different plans of attack and fight philosophies, and maybe you get to unearth a few of your bad habits in the process. But you can ONLY learn these things from competition if you go out there and give it your all to WIN. That's why trying to win is so important. If you give up in the middle of the match, you've learned absolutely nothing about yourself except that you have no spirit.

So no Willow Sword, once again, I don't fight for ego, or money or pu$$y or because I like to hurt people. I never would have competed at the world's or the pan-am's if I did. I certainly never would have come on here and posted about my losses in both events, or discussed my losing matches at the Copa Atlantica. I accept that losing is as much a part of the game--however much I don't like it--as winning.

Lastly--you mentioned something about your words being like daggers. You far overestimate your abilities, in much the same way you overestimate your ability to read peoples minds.

[Ryu]

Good post, MerryPrankster.

LOL, I don't have the competitive spirit you do, but posts like that make me want to get into competition if only for a little bit. :D
If I find myself training in Japan in the future......maybe I'll try out Pancrase. Maybe. ;)

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

Soon they'll all be screaming:

No Judo, NOOOOOOOOO, NOOOOOO!!!

[rogue]

Great post MP, really summed it all up.

PS, Bad move about admiting to being in the Choral Society, not good for the bad@ss image and all that. It'd be like me admiting to my Trading Spaces addiction.:D

[Tigerstyle]

LOL, rogue! I think everyone is addicted to Trading Spaces.

[apoweyn]

i guess merryprankster should also keep quiet about his collection of 'nathan lane trading cards' then.

[rogue]

Too funny Ape but we better watch it or only Ryu will have a bad@ss image, scraped up knees and all!:D

Tigerstyle, OK who's your favorite designer?

This thread hijack brought to you by RogueCo, makers of the Pocket Quan Doa.

[Tigerstyle]

Is that a Quan Doa in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me? :eek:


"Tigerstyle, OK who's your favorite designer?"

The asian (gay?) guy, of course! He's all about the Feng Shui! ;)

I also think the carpenter chick is kinda cute :o

[rogue]

That'd be Vern, and the gal is Amy. I'm uh guessing since I don't really watch the show. I just kindof see it when my wife watches it. Yeah that's it.

Hey, what's wrong with Nathan Lane?

[jimmy23]

Willow sword is the typical "act humble" type of guy, who's actually very arrogant and judgemental.

[Knifefighter]

...and who will claim many victories "in his younger years" when he is older and teaching unsuspecting students unproven techniques.

[apoweyn]

nothing wrong with nathan lane. collect him. trade him with your friends.

[Internal Boxer]

Merryprankster

1st class mate, you certainly know how to put people in their place.:cool:

[The Willow Sword]

i love it that you guys are taking soooo much time to justify to me,,(little ole me) your love for frivolous competition and violent activities.
merry prankster: good for you.

jimmy23: whatever you say man:o

knife fighter: okay then :o

apowen: yeah you are the only one reminded of that skit. :p

continue down the path,,,travel it as best as you can,,,ALWAYS Follow your HEART, and above all,,dont take any bodys $hit. (including mine:p )

Many respects,,The Willow Sword

[apoweyn]

well, i suppose we should all thank you for posting this thread in the first place, legitimating your exclusionary pretension and general sense of... what was it? joy and love?


stuart b.

[Ryu]

let's be nice. :)

[The Willow Sword]

directions for shampooing: add a quarter size dollup to wet hair
lather, rinse, repeat as necessary.;)

Many respects,,,The Willow Sword

[apoweyn]

good to know.

look, i'm in no mood to argue with you. say what you want. reap what you sow.

good times.


stuart b.

[KC Elbows]

I want to clarify my stance on things, too.

First off, Ryu, I'm sick of you hogging all the asian cuties to yourself, it's all ego, and I for one am sick of it. Trips to the market with multiple asian cuties are all big selfish ego trips, if you ask me.

Apoweyn, I'm sick of you horning in on my "reasonable guy" approach, you've shown some improvement in this thread, but still, quit being so reasonable, you know it's all about you.

and to the rest of you, I'm sick of all your posting, your self involved "lets talk kung fu" threads, your crying jags late at night into the keyboard, all "nobody loves me, boohoohoo, my tai chi has too many hippies" egotistical bullcr@p, and I know you'll all reply, but really, it's just more of this ego stuff. After all, only I post with the welfare of the world in mind, not like you bunch of losers.:p :D

[Tigerstyle]

I am the only person on this entire thread that is not elitist and judgemental.

[General Kwei]

Merry Prankster, while I do not know Willow and so am not aware of his posting style, I would challenge you to think about the idea that you do not compete for ego.
Dont get me wrong! I am not slamming you, I myself compete, and for me it is a personal challenge and that to me involves the ego. Part of the problem is that this attitude has been put in a bad light. IMHO, to compete has to include ego to some degree, but I will admit that I am occasionally wrong ;)

[Internal Boxer]

Way to go Willow Sword!!.......moral veneer flakes off.....turn to humor instead. Top Banana!!! :D ;) :D

[Merryprankster]

Yup, there is "ego," involved. But to fight for the pride of winning will guarantee you remain mediocre because you will only fight mediocre competition forever!

It's no less ego to strive to do your best. A strong sense of self is all about ego, working hard at kung fu isn't egoless either...who are you getting good for? Your neighbor?


There's a difference between ego, and pride, however.

[General Kwei]

MP - I agree with you, it just seemed as though your comment on no ego was absolute. Thanks for clarifying.