Trapping Range or Clinch Range

[Brad Souders]

Just wondering what your thoughts on the effectiveness of these ranges and the better one to train more of.

To me calling it trapping range would be not tied up using pak and lop soa but not quite close enough to get ahold of each other and not using a "tie" up when your closer but still just blasting away.

Clinch range would skip the first intial ping and be right in close tied up and looking for the knees,elbows,headbutts,takedowns,groin strikes, eye gouges, etc.

IMO the trapping drills as in chi soa, hubud, etc... are great for sensetivity and help tons working for takedowns but the actual "trapping" is a beyotch to pull off in full out, full speed cmbat. I know people are going to say the traps lead into the clinch but what i guess i'm asking is trying to perform these traps to dangurous during live conflict?

[Braden]

IMHO, hubud, chi sao, etc don't train a "range to fight in" (which is kind of a silly concept to begin with, again IMHO), but rather are a training tool that lets you take a split-second of a martial engagement and train it non-stop for as long as you like, in order to get good at doing that one moment.

I dunno how else to answer, since that kind of puts a spin on your question.

If your question is as constrained as it's written, that is: which is better, training only close enough until your forearms touch, or training all the way; obviously, the answer is the latter.

[Water Dragon]

I'm kinda on the opposite end for this one. IMO, if you are primarily a striker, practice trapping range. It puts you in a position where your punches will have maximum impact. If you are a grappler, go for clinch range. It puts you in a position to get your throws.

It depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

[Brad Souders]

I really was just wondering if the traps themselves are effective. I like to train them and are nice to have. But when i spar someone who uses them alot off beats seem to through off this defense/offensive set-up. Not saying to skip right into clinch but is trapping the way to work into the clinch range?

[Brad Souders]

Chi soa and hubud aren't range training tools but sensitivty drills. Just saying they are very useful in the clinch. Though in my none mma training i enjoy using alot of gunts and hubud seems to help this type of strike defense also. :)

[Water Dragon]

Not everything in CMA is applied in the same way it is practiced. What do trapping drills teach? They teach you how to deal with things inside punching range. You will probably never "trap" in a fight, at least not in the same way you practice.

But think of what it will do for your reaction time.

[Merryprankster]

I suppose you could... but I'm with WD here. I tend to follow punches and kicks into the clinch, or jab my way into the clinch. Or, I'll just slip into it, or weave into it.

[Braden]

WD - Trapping range is where strikes have maximum impact?? :D

Really, I just don't buy the concept of a striker who can maintain distance pegging someone off; never seen it done.

BS - Yes, entry methods are definitely worth training. If you feel like there's a mad, hapless dash to get into the clinch, that definitely seems like something to work on. Trapping is just grappling; it's supposed to weaken your opponents structure and improve your position. It will also open up opportunities to get into much better "clinches" than what one would be used to from judo, etc. Just like any training method, the danger is that it becomes a game; that people lose track of what they're training.

What MP just said about how he gets into the clinch, that's what trapping should train.

Watch taiji pushhands - they go forward, back, forward, back... and then suddenly one guy gets tossed. What's happening? Are they saying you stand there going back and forth in a fight? No. When you go forward, you are entering. While you enter, you're looking for gaps in your opponent's posture/structure through which to attack; and you're trying to make those gaps without exposing your own (in other words, you're trapping/grappling). If you found none, you try again. This time, you learn from your mistakes... the angle of your arms, when and where you put pressure... you're trying to find out how to enter/follow ideally; and at the same time, learning to defend from the same. In other words, you're taking that one tiny moment of bridging/following/entering and stretching it out for as long as you and your partner want to train; in order to get really good at it.

Watch wing chun chi sai - the arms go round and round, round and round... then suddenly someone gets whacked? What's happening? See above, with minor variations.

Watch kali hubud... watch bagua roushou... Same deal.

Of course, I'm talking out of my ass, but it seems to make sense.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Braden
WD - Trapping range is where strikes have maximum impact?? :D

Really, I just don't buy the concept of a striker who can maintain distance pegging someone off; never seen it done.



But I'm not thinking of it like that Braden. I'm talking about that split second when you are in solid punching range. Of course, I don't train striking (just entries) so I don't do trapping myself.

I can only comment on what I see from my training partners who do train this.

[Brad Souders]

Reaction time :) Holy sh*t!!!! haha I agree 100% that training "trapping" helps dodge puches in the close quarter portion. But what am i saying from there is pak and lop and other traps more effective then just wrapping up the body? In another side note what does Shaui Chiao use for sensitivity drills for their takedowns?

Braden- When i'm working into a clinch i like to train so when i'm working in it feels like a walk in the park. No rush, not getting over excited, but just getting there. Trapping imo seems difficult to perform during entry. I perfer as MP said following a leg kick or jabbing my way in.

[Braden]

WD - Seems to me like there's plenty of trapping in SC.

http://www.shuaichiao.org/video/entry_clear3.html for example.

BS - If you're entering smoothly into superior position, it sounds like you have the trapping game down. People seem to get hung up about trapping; thinking it's more than it is. My familiarity with wing chun is minimal, but from what I recall, the majority of it's classic handwork is fairly principle based. If a wing chun guy saw the what you did to enter into an arm drag, he might go 'wow, nice pak sao!' You'd be like... wtf are you talking about. But that's exactly what trapping is. People associate trapping with wing chun mostly only because of Bruce - properly, it's everywhere. The question isn't whether or not you should train trapping - you should, and you allready do. The question is - whether or not any given person's training methods for training trapping (eg. wing chun methods) are going to help you.

[neptunesfall]

in my experience the greatest amount of sensitivity came from sparring. the second came from what i think is called "1 step sparring" (student a throws a striking technique at student b, student b executes a throwing technique off of the striking technique), teaches you proper angles and timing to use with a throw. the third came from kung fu drills; three star blocking, etc.

[Water Dragon]

Well, I wouldn't call that a trap. But, I'm sure it could be.

FYI, that's Dave Pickens school. (a very VERY good school by the way, but not mine)

I train under the ACSCA. we do things a little differently.

[Braden]

Why wouldn't you call it a trap?

Would love to train SC; but the closest school is over 7 hours and a national border away. :(

[neptunesfall]

thats pretty da.mn far

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Braden
Why wouldn't you call it a trap?



I would call it a check/cover. What it's doing is setting up the guys body position to enter and take the throw. To me, a "trap" involves momentarily stopping the opponent from hitting you while you hit them. Of course, we might be arguing semantics here, but it's a distinction I make in my own training.

[Braden]

Couldn't that exact same movement be an elbow/backhand combo to the throat, hip strike, shoulder strike, and/or koubu leg 'submission'? Ie. be a strike, rather than a throw; but be the exact same movement?

[Water Dragon]

I don't know.

[Braden]

Heh.

[Water Dragon]

Did you see the 2 variations of shoulder throws, the Elbow cracking break, the head mop, and the sweep that could also come out of that (dependant on the exact position of course)

Heh Heh :D

[Shadowboxer]

I wouldn't call that a trap either coming from a WC perspective. You only use phon sao(trapping) when you are presented the opportunity while punching. We train phon sao as a reaction to a strike getting deflected, once I feel that, I immediately perform a "trap" if I can, or I continue punching or maybe throw a kick. If I punch with my right at your face and you block it with your left palm (pak sao), I can respond with x number of responses such as noi pak sao, lop fak, ding jarn, etc. Hit first, don't chase the hands trying to trap.
We also train the clinch drill, where we assume attacker has gotten in and tied up my arms and will be coming with the uppercut or hook or single-leg or some sort of combo. Chi sao comes in handy for this too. So, I would say train both. What is hubud by the way?

[Water Dragon]

You can also reverse into a neck surround variation that would do one helluva number on the guy's spine.

[Braden]

rofl

I wasn't being a smart-ass, I swear!

I mostly see tightening down on his leg by hooking in and sinking, and then mopping his headal area with that elbow. Also, on the entry, there's a fine opening for palm/elbow combination coming in, especially since you're covering his left arm with your body. Normally, in those kinds of positions, what first comes to mind to follow palm-elbow-elbow-palm combo is to do a head turning throw in the appropriate direction, ideally intercepted midway by knee-to-head, but he has entered low and inside whereas I'm used to thinking outside, where this is more feasible. I suspect your 'neck surround' is similar thinking, from the lower, inside viewpoint. Other than that, you could always just shuffle into a bow to do a big whallop with that backup hand.

[Ryu]

People may disagree with me. But to me "clinching range" and "trapping range" are the exact same thing. All the trapping drills, hubud, lop sao, chi sau, etc. are to give you the sensitivity to trap a hand down should it fly up in the middle of a fight. The goal (at least from PFS and JKD type people) is to get in close and finish it with headbutts, elbows, knees, throws, etc.

Ryu

[Water Dragon]

I was just playing to Braden :D

But there is a point: You see what you are trained to see.

[KC Elbows]

I agree with Ryu on trapping/clinching range, despite his elitist attitude. Cyberkwooner.:p

[Ryu]

Hmpf.

Ryu

[rogue]

Only Ryu could manage to be an elitest snob bar brawler with a PFS Instructors certificate. Chasing them there Asian girls will do that to you.:p

[Rolling Elbow]

That's funny, Gary and I (Fierce Tiger, sifu on the site) used to argue about Bujinkan taijutsu and Bakmei but jesus, they are the same thing in this case! What you see in his pictures and what is explained is exactly what we do and have done in class! Our "opened" gate refers to an open stance ichimonji and the parrying hands or "pass off" hands are identical...right up to the strike! So yes BRADEN I agree, most of us already trap and clinch in our own systems because it is all fighting and deals with the same range..the fighting range! Pak Sao, Bong Sao whatever, most people will call it "looking at the time on your wristwatch" or using " a universal block".. all the same sh$t, WC just has fancier names and goes into more individual detail on every possible use and variation. I would still think it is useful to study though, Wing Chun hands combined with another system are deadly if they weren't deadly enough on their own in the first place! Besides, i love the trapping range..you'll see allot of it in the phillipino systems as well. Just strip the weapon from your hand and it applies to empty hand just as easily.