Tai Chi Chuan and it's translation.

[Shadow Dragon]

Hi All.

Maybe some people with Chinese knowledge can help me out here.

What is the exact translation/meaning for "Tai Chi Chuan".

Personally, I don't like the most common one called "Great Ultimate Fist".

Some rever to it as "Great Empirical Fist" due to it being taught at the Emperors Palace.

The one I like the most and hear quiet often used by Asians is:
"Great Polar Fist".

Now from what I know of Chinese Characters:
Tai = Great
Chi = extreme, polar(from japanese)
failed to find a translation ifrom Chinese.
Chuan = Fist

So what is the correct meaning of the "Chi" Character??
Sorry, my Chinese is extremely limited to a few moves and ordering Food.

Any Info is welcome.

P.S.: I know many people like the "Great Ultimate Fist" name as it appears to make TCC superior.

[Kumkuat]

taijiquan is great polar fist. try looking up JI instead of CHI.

[Shadow Dragon]

Kumkuat.

Thanks. that makes things clearer.

Still new to the chinese Dictionary & Language.

Peace.

[Rory]

hmm I only know most of the shanghai dialect and some manderin but ji would be a complete diffrent word.

[Ka]

Ji second tone extreme the utmost point ,pole ,extremely,exceedingly.

Thats using a romanized pinyin format dictionary.
hope thats useful.

[GLW]

In translating it, you have to take into account that there are certain characters in Chinese that take on a slightly different meaning when used in conjuction with other characters.

Tai and Ji are like this. In Taijiquan you can't tranlsate each character as a separate entity and get the correct meaning.

You have to take it as :

Taiji

Quan

Taiji can be tranlated as the "Grand Terminus", the "Great Pivot" or more directly (at least in concept) the Concpet of the Duality of Yin and Yang.

Quan in this context is martial style or fist method.

Put it all together and you get the Martial Style based upon the concepts of the Taiji (or the Yin and Yang).

The Yin Yang symbol is the Taiji...

[Fu-Pow]

Chinese is a neat language. Everything is relative. Yin and Yang so to speak. :D

[Ky-Fi]

As I've been taught,

Wuji=blurred, no extremeties, not clearly defined
Taiji=grand ultimate

Taiji is the mother of yin and yang. Taiji is the power that CAUSES wuji to discriminate into yin and yang. If you're talking about the universe, then Taiji=the dao. If you're talking about Taijiquan, then the taiji=the mind.

[Nexus]

Actually Ky-Fi:


Taiji=the dao. If you're talking about Taijiquan, then the taiji=the mind

Taiji comes from wuji, and wuji is emptiness, void or the undescribable. That is why in the Tao Te Ching Lao Tzu says, "The Tao that can be told of is not the eternal Tao" meaning you cannot describe Wuji or Void.

That would mean Wuji = Tao or Mind and Taiji is the movement following or that which comes from the mind. So all that comes from the mind is Taiji, yet all that is taiji came from wuji or emptiness. That is why the wuji attitude or standing posture is the "ready to fight" stance of a taiji player.


Wuji, Taiji, YinYang, Wanwu

"From None to One to Two to Ten thousand things."

[Ky-Fi]

Originally posted by Nexus




That would mean Wuji = Tao or Mind and Taiji is the movement following.......



Well, I'm certainly no expert on CMA philosophy, but as I understand it, Taiji is not exactly the movement that follows---yin and yang is the movement that follows. Taiji is what generates yin and yang from wuji. Wuji means "no extremeties, no dividing", whereas Taiji refers to the tendency to divide. Without Taiji, Wuji wouldn't get to yin and yang, it would just stay in wuji.

But, it might just be that we've been taught slightly differently---the "wuji" posture is not considered a fighting stance at my school----it's a state of "no intention" PRIOR to a state of martial intent. For instance, as I've been taught, the very first instant of the Yang long form is wuji, then your mind turns your body's actions into yin and yang.

[Nexus]

Are you taught to take on a particular fighting stance in fights? The wuji stance or rather feet shoulder width apart arms relaxed at the sides is the typical taiji ready position. Sure, once a confrontation is engaged you begin to move, that is the idea, as I said wuji was "ready position."

As for philosophy, you are correct in that taiji does not exactly mean movement, taiji is also translated to "stillness in motion."

Taiji is actually the same as wuji and wuji the same as yin/yang. They are merely different perceptions in regards to space/time of the same phenomena, known as the Mind.

[Shadow Dragon]

Hi.

Actuallly the Wuji stance can be found in quiet a few system as the universal ready pose.

You can move very quickly from it to othre stances or moves.

I was it first taught as "Shizen no kamae" in a JMA.

Peace.

[Ky-Fi]

Originally posted by Nexus
Are you taught to take on a particular fighting stance in fights? The wuji stance or rather feet shoulder width apart arms relaxed at the sides is the typical taiji ready position. Sure, once a confrontation is engaged you begin to move, that is the idea, as I said wuji was "ready position."

I guess I'm just thinking of my chin na training---we always start the techniques from rooted push hands positions, not with the wuji stance from our form. From my understanding, I would argue that the instant your mind is engaged on the confrontation, then you're no longer in wuji. If your mind and body are in a state of wuji, then you're not ready.

But, I think we're just kind of splitting hairs here.

[Nexus]

Yes we must be, because I would say that as soon as confrontation begins, there is no better place for your mind to be than wuji.

:)

[Ky-Fi]

Then we shall agree to disagree! :)

ummm...unless one of us disagrees with that......

[Fu-Pow]

Is the state of Wuji in Taiji the same as Zen in the Buddhist tradition? Essentially a state of "no mind" where things are not differentiated, not even the individual (I) from the rest of the universe (not I). I'm reading a book about Zen meditation and the author describes stuff that sounds a whole lot like Taiji standing meditation. For example, he says that after months of practice his center of gravity shifted down to his lower abdomen . The more I study Taiji it seems to be a derivative of Zen meditation, mixed with Taoist cosmology and terminology borrowed from tradtitional chinese medicine. Asian culture is so huge vast and "incestuous" its like a big ball of thread, just find a loose thread and start pulling on it.....

[SSgungfu]

Well Chan Buddhism is Taoism and Zen mixed up in its raw form. Thats how all the Chinese stuff seems to be. All related in some way (all CMA have the belief of being rooted, chi, etc.)

[Nexus]

Fu-Pow,

Great question. Zen and Wuji are the same, however Zen meditation and Wuji meditation are not the same on the surface.

Zen or Wuji mind are not attained through meditation either, don't be led into the belief that they are. They are states of being, and are not necessarily brought about by meditating.

Zen is a way of perceiving things. It is sometimes called 'Direct Seeing' meaning seeing Directly into the nature of things. Zen or Wuji mind could be thought of as Pure awareness.

In Zen, one is to realize that they are already enlightened and that there is no enlightenment to achieve. In that sense, it seems nonsense to think that one would ever attain enlightenment by meditating. On the other side of the coin, meditation is useful in its own right for some, however it should not be confused with No-mind or Zen. Meditation is an action, Wuji is nothingness, void of action, just being.

Here is an example: I could spend 20 years learning every meditation known to taoist and zen literature and teachings, and still never really go anywhere. I may believe I have made some progress or made growth, but really those concepts of growth and progress are only in my mind. Because taoism teaches us that the ultimate goal is actually the beginners mind or the uncarved block, we realize that thinking that we have become something whether it is an advanced meditator, a taichi master, a yogi or whatever, is to carve our block and lose our original essence.

I recommend reading "An Introduction to Zen Buddhism" by D.T. Suzuki - Here is a website with a text version:

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/zennun/zen_intro.html

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks, I can tell by your answer that I'm on to something here. Where it goes from here who knows...or rather who doesn't know. :D

[YiLiJingLei]

Hi, Nexus,
For the sake of literal translation, please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "Zen" Japanese for "meditation", and "Chan" Mandarin for "meditation"? 'Meditation' meaning quiet contemplation? Just trying to cut to the "nuts & bolts" direct meaning. In Sanskrit it is dhyana, right? The idea is to realize truth, essential, simple truth, to grasp what seems intangible, isn't it?
So, Zen, or Chan, (meditation) is kind of, the conscious act of letting go of thinking of this or that (polarity) to just "be"; isn't that what Wuji is? Being without extremity? So, Zen/Chan is a method, or Road ("Tao") to percieve or realize Wuji/non-extremity/void?
Or something like that. Maybe I'm just clapping myself with one hand...hmm, what does that sound like...;)...heehee

[Repulsive Monkey]

Grand Ultimate Pole - Fist.

[Nexus]

Originally posted by YiLiJingLei
Hi, Nexus,
For the sake of literal translation, please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "Zen" Japanese for "meditation", and "Chan" Mandarin for "meditation"? 'Meditation' meaning quiet contemplation? Just trying to cut to the "nuts & bolts" direct meaning. In Sanskrit it is dhyana, right? The idea is to realize truth, essential, simple truth, to grasp what seems intangible, isn't it?
So, Zen, or Chan, (meditation) is kind of, the conscious act of letting go of thinking of this or that (polarity) to just "be"; isn't that what Wuji is? Being without extremity? So, Zen/Chan is a method, or Road ("Tao") to percieve or realize Wuji/non-extremity/void?
Or something like that. Maybe I'm just clapping myself with one hand...hmm, what does that sound like...;)...heehee

YiLiJingLei,

You have the concept well understood. Zen means meditation in some translations, although it does not mean the "formal" meditation most people think of.

As I said, it means Direct Seeing of reality or seeing the simple truth as you called it. We can say for instance that as the "here and now" is all that exists, Zen would be meditating on the here and now.

Fu-Pow,

I would agree that your questions are definetely pointing at something you are looking towards understanding. I have seen countless questions asked by you on this forum that show a honest display of what is called "Beginners Mind" or open-mindedness. This is the mind that one should keep as a treasure, as it will allow for you to learn without hindrance because you are open to all possibilities and do not limit yourself by egotistical tendencies. In the t'ai chi classes I have taught and participated in, often peoples thoughts of "what a good question would be" keep them from asking questions they want answered. They worry over what others will think or are afraid of what answers will be given if they ask. There is a great quote that says, "Judge a man by his questions and not by his answers."

You will find what you are looking for, all you must do is look. As it has been said, when you see the finger pointing at the moon, do not confuse the finger for the moon.

Take care.

[Fu-Pow]

Not at the moon, just in it's general direction.:D

[Nexus]

And what direction is that?

[Fu-Pow]

Up.:D

[Nexus]

Don't forget to look where you are walking.

[Repulsive Monkey]

How can you say that Chan is Taoism and Zen mixed up when Chan came before Zen? Chan Buddhism was Chinese whereas the when it traversed over to Japan it became named Zen. I think you ought to read up on all three because your comments were a touch generalised. Taoism has a distinctive character as does Zen. It would be easy to tell two practitioners of each apart.

[Fu-Pow]

I thought that Ch'an (Zen) buddhism was a mix of Mahayana Buddhism and Taoism as well as Confucianism. It was eventually transported to Japan. What is interesting to me about Taiji is that the Buddhist influence seems to be left out of the history. Why is this? Is it because Buddhism is considered "foreign" in the Culture?

[Walter Joyce]

The point you make about "foreign to the culture" is not without merit. There are well reasoned writings that advance that same notion as the main differnce between labeling a martial art as internal (i.e. derived from chinese teachings, as in taoism) and "external" (Derived from outside sources, think shaolin buddhist influenced).
Walter
p.s. I'll find the link if you like, but last time I did that I was accused of being superficial. lol

[Fu-Pow]

Walter-

I've heard the internal/external, taoist/buddhist connection before. I'd never given it much merit, but the more I read about Zen (buddhist) meditation I can't help but see the connections between Taiji and Buddhism.

[Nanking '28]

hi all...

Im pretty sure taiji is practiced by a great many buddhists, but it would strike me that philosophically it is a goal of buddhism to 'transcend' the dualistic or binary nature of reality and a goal of the taoist to understand and work with that nature, so to speak. Even in Wuji, 0, there exhists the yin/-1 and the yang/+1. As taiji embodies these basic taoist notions in the opening and closing movements of the body, as well as in fighting strategy, I would think that Taiji would remain 'of a foreign culture' to most buddhists...Except maybe for those who may have been influenced by the range of chinese philosophies such as in Zen Buddhism...where this all started.

Anyone know of any books or sources for information comparing/contrasting the spread of Martial Arts with the spread of religious/ideological/philosophical systems of thought and belief? That'd be pretty interesting methinks...


Whether in stillness or in motion it is still motion.

[GeneChing]

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