What Does Small or Large Mean in PM Forms?

[mantisben]

What Does Small or Large Mean in PM Forms? For example there is the form "Small Motion Boxing" and "Large Motion Boxing" (Siu Fan Che and Dai Fan Che, respectively).

I've also heard of Siu Ga Sik being called by the following names:
Small Framework Boxing
Small Agressive Boxing

Likewise Dai Ga Sik I've heard called by the following names:
Large Framework Boxing
Large Agressive Boxing

What is the characteristic about the "Small" and "Large" within PM forms?

I believe that once I understand the forms characteristic, I'll learn more about principle the form is trying to teach.

Any response will be greatly appreciated.

[palric]

Good question mantisben. I do not have these forms and have wondered from time to time what they are about, whether I should pursue them ?

I have heard of "Big Form", "Little Form", "Big Wheel", "Little Wheel" and "Big Chariot", "Little "Chariot".

Do these all refer to the same 'big and little' forms ? I too am curious about their intent and history -- do we know who authored them ? Do we know which branchs of PM practice them ?

thx in advance,
UM.

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by palric
I have heard of "Big Form", "Little Form", "Big Wheel", "Little Wheel" and "Big Chariot", "Little "Chariot".

Do these all refer to the same 'big and little' forms ?

"Dai Gah Sik" is often translated as "Big Form", "Big Frame", or as we call it "Big Motion". The same holds for "Siu Gah Sik" of "Small Motion". "Gah Sik" itself can mean pose or posture and I believe it should give an indication to how it should be played. "Dai Gah Sik" has many long range techniques. Techniques like the windmill strikes are...just big, there really is no better way to describe them. "Siu Gah Sik" has more close range techniques. The opening rolling and leaking palms, the low sweeps,....this form is "tighter" than it's "Big" brother form.

"Dai/Siu Fahn Tseh" translate as "Big/Small Wheel" or "Big/Small Windmill" or even "Big/Small Chariot". They are all the same. This may be confusing because the last character, "Tseh" refers to something round and is used to describe many things including, cars (because of the wheels), Bicycles (again the wheels), windmills, water wheels, and so on. So these forms have been translated many different ways depending on who is doing it.

We have always translated them as Windmills due to the windmill technique contained within them (the continuous vertical swinging of both arms) although I believe Tainan Mantis recently wrote that he thinks it should be Water Wheel because the Shantung people refer to water wheel as "fahn tseh" although the I think the imagery is similar. If you want to see the Chinese characters, you can check our website at www.northernmantis.com

YM

[mantisben]

Thank you Young Mantis. You have answered my question.

My previous sifu was Tony chui. I started studying under him in about 1982. If you don't believe me ask him if he remembers "Herman", the dark-skin skinny (even puny) Puerto-Rican that was walked into the school by his mother when he was about 14 or 15 years old when he used to teach between 42nd & 43rd street on 6th ave. He may not remember since it was about 20 years ago. Still, I trained under him for about 2.5 years. I remember Raymond, Anthony, Lambert, and there were many others. Sifu Tony Chui literally taught me how to fight and I am forever grateful! He knows his stuff and is the real thing!

Actually, I learned Dai Ga Sik from watching Raymond perform it over and over. Of course, there is more to a PM form than just the movements...:D

[Young Mantis]

Hi Mantisben,

Nice to hear from an old schoolmate. Even though it has been 20 years since Sifu Tony Chuy began teaching, he still remembers everyone who trained with him and he does in fact remember you.

I'm glad I was able to answer your question.

Good luck with your continued studies in PM.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

mantisben,
About the term small and large. it also includes the term middle- zhong.
Forms with small middle large-hsiao zhong da-
hu yen -tiger sparrow
fan che-water wheel or turning wheel
lien huan tuei-continous kicks

Some schools only have the small and large versions.

But these can not be considered as coming from any ancient PM tradition.
Tiger sparrow was created in the 30's with no middle or large version.

Fanche was a single form with no small, middle or large.
In the oldest PM text from Sheng Hsiao Dao Ren lists a form as "fanche hits four roads"(47 moves). Unfortunetly this manuscript doesn't seem to match the modern fanche manuscripts.

The three lien huan tuei forms used to be a single short form called 24 continous kicks.

Small and large frame seem to be unique to HK 7*. These forms have a very strong Longfist intro that is not usually seen in PM forms.
WHF refers to them as "cute."

The oldest series of forms to share a common name, to my knowledge, are the jai yao-essentials forms.
The are called duan-sections, not small medium large.

The 8 elbows form was broken into sections to make it easier to teach.
Depending on your school it is divided by:
-upper and lower
-upper, middle and lower
-4 duan-sections

Although these divisions of 8 elbows were all done recently.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Young Mantis

"Dai/Siu Fahn Tseh" translate as "Big/Small Wheel" or "Big/Small Windmill" or even "Big/Small Chariot". They are all the same. This may be confusing because the last character, "Tseh" refers to something round and is used to describe many things including, cars (because of the wheels), Bicycles (again the wheels), windmills, water wheels, and so on. So these forms have been translated many different ways depending on who is doing it.


I do not agree with this opinion. FanChe is the way ShangTong foulks call water wheel, fan= flipping, che=wheel. The wheel that has the leaves that flipping around is what they called fanche.

The point is that mantis boxing was origined form ShangTong, if one can't even understand correctly of the language, how can one pass down the other parts of it correctly? There are many things that needs to be understood in order to have a correct mantis. If you don't understand what the teacher is talking about correctly, it will show in your arts.

To say they are chariot, it shows no understanding of fanche at all. It was just a poor effort try to make it sound fancy when one don't know what it means. To say it is windmills, that is very close to why it was originally called water wheel, very similar spirit. That shows the person understand better with fanche.

In 8 step, Da-big, indicate more advence, Shiao-small, indicate more foundamental/beginner. That is what GM Wei's defination.

[Young Mantis]

Paullin,

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. When I stated:

"Dai/Siu Fahn Tseh" translate as "Big/Small Wheel" or "Big/Small Windmill" or even "Big/Small Chariot". They are all the same.

I simply meant to say that they all reference the same form, "Dai/Siu Fahn Tseh". Personally, I have never translated "Fahn Tseh" as Chariot but some people have and in fact one of the earlier posts I was replying to refers to it as such so I included it in the list of translations.

In the post you quoted me from, my last paragraph explains that we translate it as windmill and I gave notice that Tainan Mantis posted about the usage of "Fahn Tseh" as water wheel by Shantung people. I also concluded that the imagery of water wheel and windmill are similar and so convey the same intention in the technique.

If you are disagreeing with the translation of "Fahn Tseh" as Chariot, then yes, I agree. But again, I did not say I translate it as such. Although, I am aware that some people have taken the "Kwa Fu Fahn Tseh" technique to mean "Overturning the Chariot" based on the Chinese story about a praying mantis blocking the road and causing a cart, not chariot, to swerve and turn over.

As for Dai/Big meaning Advanced and Siu/Small meaning Basic, perhaps that is the case for 8 Step but that is not the general rule in our HK7*. On the contrary, I find that Dai Gah Sik and Dai Fahn Tseh are more basic than their "Siu" counterparts. But we do not define them as such rather maybe just a coincidence.

YM

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
Paullin,

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. When I stated:

"Dai/Siu Fahn Tseh" translate as "Big/Small Wheel" or "Big/Small Windmill" or even "Big/Small Chariot". They are all the same.

I simply meant to say that they all reference the same form, "Dai/Siu Fahn Tseh". Personally, I have never translated "Fahn Tseh" as Chariot but some people have and in fact one of the earlier posts I was replying to refers to it as such so I included it in the list of translations.

In the post you quoted me from, my last paragraph explains that we translate it as windmill and I gave notice that Tainan Mantis posted about the usage of "Fahn Tseh" as water wheel by Shantung people. I also concluded that the imagery of water wheel and windmill are similar and so convey the same intention in the technique.

If you are disagreeing with the translation of "Fahn Tseh" as Chariot, then yes, I agree. But again, I did not say I translate it as such. Although, I am aware that some people have taken the "Kwa Fu Fahn Tseh" technique to mean "Overturning the Chariot" based on the Chinese story about a praying mantis blocking the road and causing a cart, not chariot, to swerve and turn over.

As for Dai/Big meaning Advanced and Siu/Small meaning Basic, perhaps that is the case for 8 Step but that is not the general rule in our HK7*. On the contrary, I find that Dai Gah Sik and Dai Fahn Tseh are more basic than their "Siu" counterparts. But we do not define them as such rather maybe just a coincidence.

YM

That is ok, I know you didn't translated that way. The story of mantis arm blocking the cart story is wrong. That is a commonly know story back in warlord time, Confucious time. The cart went around the mantis up on seening its breavery of blocking the cart, didn't cause the cart to turn over. Besides, a bug will be to small to spot out if the cart is traveling in a speed that is fast enough to case a turn over. We were told that story when we were in elementary school back in Taiwan.

In 8 steps, we use Da-big, as more formal, Shiao-small, as more personal. They were borrowed to indicate the order of which one is more advanced. Of Hk7*, I have no knowledge of.