Siu Lam Hung Ga - Every Form A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN!

[Tao]

Do all the various different branches and lineages (Canton, Village, etc) use Gung Gee Fook Fu as the beginners form? Or do some use it as a more advanced form or not use it at all?

No, not all schools, branches and styles of Hung Ga teach Gung Gee Fook Fu as a
Beginner's form. Each school or branch teaches differently depending upon their tradition,
background, and ideas behind the system.

There are many styles of Hung Ga such as: Siu Lam Temple Hung Ga, Hung Men Hung Ga, Village style Hung Ga, Wong Fei Hung or Modern Hung Ga, etc. All find their roots back to the Venerable Abbot Gee Sin Sim Si of Southern Siu Lam Temple. However, depending on the style or branch of Hung Ga you were taught, training, skills, techniques, specific order of forms, etc. sometimes differ from one style to another.

For example, some schools teach Gung Gee Fook Fu as a beginning form, some teach Fu Hok as the beginning form, and some teach Iron Wire as the beginning form, etc. In contrast to "new school" Hung Ga, some "old school" Hung Kuen practitioners never went beyond one set. This was not due to a slow aptitude or poor learning ability. It's just that the Hung Kuen state of mind was different back then. The main purpose of Hung Kuen back then was not to learn all the forms, but to master at least one! Some HK practitioners never went beyond Gung Gee Fook Fu, and some never went beyond Fu Hok, etc. Some HK practitioners were only taught Gung Gee Fook Fu, and some were only taught Iron Wire, etc. But some of these guys were more advanced than some Sifu's and practitioners today! The reason why is because Hung Kuen was taught differently back then, and only a few schools still live by this "old school" approach today. One old school concept was this: That every form in Hung Ga Kuen IS A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN! In other words, every HK form is like a well balanced meal that contains all the seeds and ingredients of the other forms. Such as: stances, bridges, Qi connection, hard and soft power, various Geng, 5 element theory, 5 sound theory, 5 element fists/techniques, 5 animal shapes/techniques, ten killing hands, etc.

For example, in the beginning of Gung Gi Fook Fu there are elements of Tit Kiu Sam's bridges from the Iron Wire form. If you look even more closely, there are also ingredients from the Tiger and Crane movements of Hung Hei Goon. Also, elements from Five Animal, Five elements, etc. as well. Every form in Hung Ga Kuen is truly A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN!

In order for one to comprehend this concept, one must fully understand what the word "system" truly means. According to the Webster and Oxford dictionary: a system is a group of things or parts working together as a whole. Such as: the nervous system, digestion system, etc. So just as the human body is a system and has other systems in it, Hung Ga Kuen is also a system and each form is a system and a group of techniques working together as a whole. The progenitor's of HK knew what they were doing! Back in the days, each student was taught one specific system in HK. If the student truly mastered the system, he was then allowed to open a school and teach. If a student wanted to advance further, the Sifu would then send the qualified student with a letter of introduction to his Sifu, Sihing, or Sidai to continue his studies. However, mastering a form is another story.

Regardless of the specific order one is taught, or whether or not one learned all the forms in Hung Kuen. One thing is certain, if the basics aren't mastered first, their will be no external or internal power behind the form. All practice will be in vain. A good instructor primarily teaches his student the basics. Thus giving him a proper mental and physical foundation that will enable him to unlock the power and techniques in the form. However, this takes time to develop. A form is like a recipe you are learning to cook. First you need the ingredients (basics, Qi Gong, breathing, stances, bridge work, drills, etc.). Then you need the right mixture (body alignment, Qi connection, technique, application, sparring, etc.). Then the recipe needs the proper amount of heat and time to cook (patience, diligence, guidance, practice, practice, and more practice!). Without this your recipe or Hung Kuen will be nothing!

Nowadays, practitioners learn as many forms as they can and are masters of none. They put quantity before quality. Some even open up their own schools. This is why there are so many students mislead out there. It's like the blind leading the blind. This is why sometimes you hear a story of a Hung Kuen practitioner getting severely beaten by a regular guy on the street. This would never occur if they mastered the basics, and truly mastered at least one form. Instead, nowadays HK practitioners collect forms like dusty trophies that mean nothing. Without the basics there is no foundation. Without a good foundation and the proper guidance from an advanced instructor, even if you practiced for a hundred years your Gong Fu would amount to nothing. Nothing will be achieved unless the basics are first mastered. This is why the old school Sifu's taught and continue to teach each student based on their unique body build, personality, state of health, strengths, weaknesses, etc.

Let's take the Siu Lam era for example. Before Hung Hei Goon created the Fu Hok set, and before Tit Kiu Sam created Tit Sin Kuen. In the beginning, Abbot Gee Sin taught Hung Hei Goon Siu Lam Fook Fu (now known as Gung Gee Fook Fu). With this knowledge alone Hung Hei Goon became an expert. Only after Hung mastered the Gung Gee system, was he able to create the Fu Hok system by combining the crane techniques he learned from his wife (Fong Wing Chun) and the Tiger techniques he learned from Gung Gee Fook Fu. Gung Gee Fook Fu is A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN! Let's take Tit Kiu Sam for instance, it was a monk called Kwok Yan who taught him Rock Body Boxing and 12 Kiu Sau techniques. It was through this system and these 12 techniques that Tit Kiu Sam became an expert in Southern Siu Lam Boxing. With this knowledge, Tit Kiu Sam was able to creat the Tit Sin Kuen system. Tit Sin Kuen is also A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN!

A famous Chinese source wrote that once a friend of Tit Kiu Sam was very ill. Although TKS's friend never practiced the martial arts, he taught his friend the techniques of Iron Wire Boxing. In a short time his friend was completely healed, and grew tremendously strong from this training.
After a year, his friend became very advanced in the martial arts. All from one system alone. Tit Sin Kuen is A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN. So you see, quality is superior and supercedes quantity.
Also, each form in the Hung Kuen system is A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN. They are all based on internal and external energies that energize our blood with Qi and oxygen. Our blood then circulates throughout our body feeding our bones, marrow, brain, tendons, muscles, sinews, etc. In time our body changes and becomes powerfully strong and healthy. We are then able to sink our Qi to our Dan Tien, and with various sounds nourish our organs and generate different Geng. Eventually, our Yi gets stronger and our Shen clearer and we obtain great martial power and strength. However, without the knowledge, wisdom and experience of a qualified teacher, you
can damage your body beyond repair in the form of hernias, pulled tendons, nerve damage, muscle damage, hemmoraging, Qi blockage, making the body too Yang or Yin, etc.

It will take a lifetime to grab the essence in one system like Tit Sin Kuen. The reason is because, there are thousands of details to learn and master like: sounds, feelings, expressions, etc. I know Sifu's as well as Goju Sensei who studied TSK and Sanchin who can confirm the same.

Lastly, I will leave you all with this story to ponder and reflect. Once there was a Hung Kuen practitioner in Guangdong who learned Village Style Hung Ga, but only knew one form - Gung Gee Fook Fu. However, no one could beat him. One day some one he just defeated in a fight asked him how could he be so advanced if he only knew one form?, and what what was his secret? The Village stylist plainly told him that his Sifu taught him that this:
That even if he practiced Gung Gee 1000 times he would be nothing. However, if he practied Gung Gee 1000 times correctly he would be a beginner, but if he practiced his form 10,000 times correctly, he would still be a beginner but the average fighter would never beat him. The defeated man asked him how many times did he practice so far. The Village stylist
told him, after 100,000 times of doing Gung Gi correctly, he lost count.

Each form in Siu Lam Hung Ga Kuen is A SYSTEM ON ITS OWN! Whose main purpose is not only for defense, but more essentially to prevent illness, thereby creating health, and promoting longevity.

[L D S]

Niko, back on the forum again? And again you are repeating yourself.

Well you have had the time to think about the name of your master, or did you learn in a time that the name of your master was not known to you? Anyway we know your style: Siu Lam Hung Ga Kuen

Do you actually live in Germany, or are multiple persons creeping up your spine?

Most of the Hung Gar people on this forum are known to us, to name a few: Hasayfu, Paul, DF, South Paw, Subitai, Kung Lek. But you?

Ling

[Lost_Disciple]

Ling
I'm just being picky here, but I didn't see Hung Gar mentioned anywhere on Kung Lek's site, sure you don't mean illusionfist? ;)
.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[L D S]

Probably slipped of my keyboard.
I mean Je Lei Sifu, and our moderator Illusionfist, Nam Kuen, etc.

Ling

[L D S]

Niko

In my humble opinion today there are only two different types of Hung Gar:
a. Modern Hung Gar that traces its origin back to Wong Fei Hung, but has its roots in older styles. Handed down through Tit Kiu Sam and Luk Ah Choy. This style has combined (5) animal systems, integrated with the (5) element system and Tit Sin system (Iron Wire). The latter has the function to regulate your chi. This Hung Gar has his own Tit Sin Form and uses 4 major forms, today known as the 4 pillars.
b. Socalled Village Hung Gar. Unaffected by Wong Fei Hung and even Tit Kiu Sam, but probably through Lok A Choi or/and Hung Hei Kun. They are recognised by (5) specific animal forms.

Both systems have - or claim - the same origin: the Siu Lam Monastery in Fujian where it was taught by the venerable Master Chee Sim.
Also they use the same 5 animals: dragon, tiger, crane, panther and snake.

Other Hung Styles do not use the ending Gar, meaning family.

Concluding and answering your initial question:
Only modern Hung Gar uses Gung Gee Fok Fu Kuen. All other styles that use this specific form are influenced by modern Hung Gar.
Gung Gee Fok Fu Kuen is an old Lo Han or Siu Lam form, later enriched with Tit Sin system.

Ling

[The Whyzyrd]

Well Niko - that is a very interesting theory you have. Though I don't necessarily disagree with you I am not sure I agree either.

Ponder this...

Though, as you say, there are "elements" of all the various other forms in any one single Hung Ga form - that form does not contain ALL of the elements of the Hung Ga System. Now keeping that in mind - do you not also feel that it is important to learn to stand before you walk and learn to walk before you run?

Now - what do I mean by that...if learn one form - say Gung Gee. You do get elements of the entire system but only elements (ie. standing). You then learn another "more advanced" form (I use quotes because the order of learning these forms is often debated) like Fu Hok. Again - you learn elements of the entire system but at a slightly more advanced level and through it a more advanced understanding of those elements. This is the stage of walking. You then move on to yet an even "more advanced" form like Wire. You are again learning those same elements but you are using them in a different way and are developing a deeper more complete undertsanding of them - Running.

Also - you made a comparison between the Hung Ga forms as systems on their own and systems of the body. Well - like the forms of Hung Ga the various systems of the body are really SUB-systems. Just as the body can not live without any one of those systems, neither can a Hung Ga practitioner be complete without "all" of the forms (again I use quotes because there is much debate on what is considered ALL). A body can not survive without a circulatory system just like a Hung Ga practitioner is not complete without all of the things learned in ALL of the forms.

Of course there are elements of body connection and hard/soft power and all of the rest in Gung Gi - it is not complete in teaching all of these things. We use the other forms to add things to our understanding.

Just my opinion.

p.s. I have a question:

in your post you state, "In the beginning, Abbot Gee Sin taught Hung Hei Goon Siu Lam Fook Fu.... With this knowledge alone Hung Hei Goon became an expert. Only after Hung mastered the Gung Gee system, was he able to create the Fu Hok system by combining the crane techniques he learned from his wife...and the Tiger techniques he learned from Gung Gee."

This is true. BUT (and of course you knew there was a BUT coming) if it takes a lifetime (or quite a long time at least) to master one "system" like Siu Lam Fook Fu (Gung Gi) and it takes a lifetime to master the crane and another to master the tiger (because we can assume that Hung Hei Goon learned one system of crane from his wife and one system of tiger from Gung Gee) then how did he have the time to not only master the various systems but know them well enough to then create a whole new system from them? Mastering one form before you go on to the next is - with out a doubt a good way to train - to ONLY learn one form (IN MY OPINION) would leave you incomplete.

By the way - how many forms do you practice? Did you learn the various Hung Ga forms and then decide to practice only one of them?

"The Wolf does not regard the barking dog"

[L D S]

Although the four pillars are complete systems of their own, Hung Gar is only complete as a 4 pillar system. That's how Wong Fei Hung and his direct disciple Lam Sai Wing - whose influence on modern day Hung Gar is often neglected - meant it to be.

In a way I agree with Whyzyrd. There is a certain differentiating in the 4 pillars. Every form will learn you more, and bring you to a higher level.

As Lilian Wong already stated in another thread I too started of with Fu Hok, which is quite usual in HK. But it's also a more difficult set then Gung Gee Fok Fu Kuen. So starting of with Gung Gee Fok Fu Kuen is i.m.o. better.

Application of force within Gung Gee Fok Fu Kuen is at an even level. In Fu Hok this is different. The 'earthly' Tiger techniques differ so much from the 'heavenly' Crane techniques.

So although every form is 'a well balanced meal', only the total 4 pillars will serve you 'the whole rich menu'.

Ling

[Tao]

Ling said: In my humble opinion today there are only two different types of Hung Gar:

Practically you are correct, from what the majority practices. In theory there is a saying in Leung Daat's Tit Sin Kuen book; "The Tree with three flowers'. This saying refers to the three main branches of Hung Ga Kuen, and indeed
the Wong Fei Hung branch is the most practiced modern Hung Kuen in the world.

But can you can you tell me how Tit Kiu Sam's and even Luk Ah Choy's curriculum looked alike? Do you really believe that Tit Kiu Sam knew
Hung Kuen? Ling, you live in Hong Kong. If you can read Chinese, read some of the older Chinese martial books from the experts of Hung Kuen.
Then you will see that some authentic forms like Iron Wire Boxing are a system on their own. You will also see the fact that Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen is a product of the 20th century. Like Wong Fei Hung's and Lam Sai Wing's Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen. But you stated that fact already. My compliments to you about that awareness, not many practitioners are aware of this! Originally, the first set was Siu Lam Fuk Fu Kuen, simply known as 'Fuk Fu Kuen'. Many other Southern styles are just variations of this old form. Adding a little Tit Sin Kuen and Lo Han Kuen made it the new Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen. However, some other books, mainly from Malaysia and Singapore have their own hypothesis.

Ng Ying and Ng Hang were separated (small) forms. Later they were mixed by three huge parts, and it finally became Ng Hang Ng Ying Kuen. Some branches called it Sap Ying Kuen, others called it Ng Ying Kuen. Finally, not all branches added the Tit Sin Kuen part to it (Dang Fung, Yuen Ling, Frank Yee branch).

However, back to my first question. If Tit Kiu Sam and Luk Ah Choy were Hung Kuen teachers, what did they know exactly about Hung Kuen??? Did Luk
Ah Choy know Iron Wire Boxing? By the way, I have a nice Chinese book (from Malaysia), describing his curriculum. We all know Luk Ah Choy's relations with Flower Boxing (Fa Kuen), and his knowledge of old Siu lam forms like Ng Ying Kuen and Ng Hang Kuen and finally Siu Lam Fuk Fu Kuen. The branch I refer to as Siu Lam Hung Ga Kuen. Is it a system on its own? No, what I mean is that the drive behind it is typically Siu Lam oriented.
The way they execute power, speed of movement, etc. These are the roots and characteristics of Southern Siu lam Boxing.

With 'a system on its own', I agreed completely with the statements of Ten Tigers about Goju Ryu. Beginning with Sanchin and ending with
Sanchin. The same with Fuk Fu Kuen and Tit Sin Kuen, and with many other forms. They are all systems on their own, "great flowers". Each and every one of them are important. However, in time one sees that it is the quality that is important and not quantity.

Sorry for the long replies.

[Tao]

Thanks for your opinion. It is definitely an interesting discussion. Like Western education we indeed step-by-step advance to a higher level. Only, eating one kind of food is not so nice. But it is a fact that in the past, both the Japanese and Chinese had only a handful of short forms. You can see this in Hung Kuen, Bak Mei, Wing Chun, etc. Later, practitioners were motivated a lot more with extra forms. Bare hand forms as well weapon forms. You can see this in many styles.

The Japanese were able to analyze one form in depth and create an entire system from it. They added various applications, vital points, sparring, partner forms, etc. This way, from an anlaysis of one form, they were able to turn it into a whole system. Every set contained typical elements of animal characteristics. Every move needed to have the correct intent, breathing and application. Think about Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen and analyze it that way. Hopefully, you can imagine that all these ingredients are in it and that the path is very long for a practitioner.

Mastering one form before you go on to the next is - with out a doubt is a good way to train - to ONLY learn one form (IN MY OPINION) would leave you incomplete.

Of course I agree with this statement too. Training a drunken boxing form will teach the practitioner so much extra and will surely influence his level of knowledge. The same thing counts when a Hung Kuen practitioner practices Tai Chi. However, that still doesn't change my opinion that forms are a whole system on its own, like ten Tigers said; begin with Sanchin and ends with Sanchin.

An herbalist treats a person with specific recipes. An Oriental Medical Doctor uses:
acupuncture, qigong, herbs and maybe cupping. Both can achieve the same result.
I know a world Karate champion that became a champion because of one technique; his Mae Geri (frontkick). Every opponent knew his technique, and still he became a world champion. How come?

[Tao]

In Gung Ji you will find back specific Animal and Element movements which can be very effective. Now we are talking about variations, of both element and animal movements. Why should "Fierce Tiger Comes Down the Mountain" be more effective then "Black Tiger Steals the Heart"? Are we talking about quantity of techniques or quality? Will the knowledge of 30 Tiger techniques make you a better and more complete fighter than one who only knows 5 Tiger techniques?

Personally, I think that analyzing one form in depth will give the practitioner enough exercise to make him a complete martial artist. But this really depends upon the practitioner, and if he has the motivation to achieve this.

I remember that grandmaster Chan Hon Chung (BBC, Way of the Warriors) said: "Most practitioners don't have the time and will to stand six months in a deep horse stance, before learning the first punch". The same with standing meditation (Yi Chuan). I saw some of these men fight, unbelievable! How many forms do they practice?

[Tao]

I have no master and I don't belong to any specific school. Although I am still a humble student, forever learning in the infinite school of martial arts. I am a firm believer in the guidance of an advanced instructor, and experience being the best teacher . I have learned from a few Sifu's whom until this day, I respect very highly and still keep in touch. Some of the martial arts I learned are: Siu Lam Hung Kuen, Modern Hung Kuen, and Buddha Hand Wing Chun. I learned them in Chinatown, New York. Most of the Sifu's I learned from are very open minded. However, their motto's were: if you dont learn the basics and get a proper foundation, and dont stick to one form for a long time...you will have nothing in the end.

I was born and raised in New York, and currently reside in Germany, and Niko is my name.

Although I do practice the style people call Hung Ga or Hung Kuen and use the terms sometimes. I usually say Siu Lam system or Siu Lam Hung Ga, or Siu Lam Hung Kuen. The reason is because I was taught that although Hung Ga is a modern term, it is really Siu Lam. Gee Sin, Hung Hei Goon, Luk Ah Choy, Tit Kiu Sam, and modern Hung Keun writers like Lam Sai Wing didn't call their kung fu mainly Hung Ga, they called it Siu Lam. The word Hung was first used by Siu Lam refugees and Ming loyalists during the persecution of the Siu Lam Temple. They had to conceal their Siu Lam heritage from the Ching Courts. Hung Ga also means "red family". A red turban was worn on the head as a secret way of identifying oneself as a Siu Lam brother. Another way of identifying oneself as a Siu Lam member and Ming Loyalist was by using the Ming salutation with the hands. You can see this in the beginning of most Siu Lam forms. Many practitioners think that this sign only stood for the Ming Dynasty as in the slogan "Loyal to the Ming, destroy the Ching!". However, it also had martial, and buddhist connotations as well. For example, the left hand or open hand, stands for the Crescent or Moon, and the right hand, or fist symbolizes the Sun. The chinese characters ming (bright) is also a combination of the characters sun and moon.

[This message was edited by niko on 08-24-01 at 01:30 PM.]

[L D S]

I first thought you were only giving a statement, and leave us all in the cold. Now you're talking bussiness.

Where do you reside in Germany. I know some Hung Gar practitioners from there. I ask this because I'm still puzzled with your post from May 7th: "Peace to Evert, Rene, Justin and the whole Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga family....". Are these your direct brothers in Germany?

I will come back to you later.

Ling

[MaFuYee]

niko:

i thought that was common knowledge. (?)
in the beginning, hung ga was one form. (gung ji fuk fu)

one form is all you need.
that is what i was always told.

even if you learn many, it is just for the sake of being able to pass it on to future generations. - but, you specialise in one. - no?

- The learning curve is now a spin cycle.

[L D S]

Niko, you wrote about the saying in Leung Daat's Tit Sin Kuen book; "The tree with three flowers". This saying refers to the three main branches of Hung Ga Kuen, and indeed the Wong Fei Hung branch is the most practiced modern Hung Kuen in the world.

Can you read Chinese or do you have a translation of the Tit Sin Kuen?

Indeed in the adjacent text of the 5th picture, reading "The alarmed swangoose retracts its wings" (jïnghóngliănyì), the author mentions - as a footnote - the three main branches of Hung Gar:
a. Nam Siu Lam Hung Gar with Tit Kiu Sam as representative.
b. Hung Gar from Hung Hei Kun.
c. All other Hung Gar styles, whereas the word Hung Gar is used as a general term.

But he also points out that these three distinct branches existed in the early days.
The situation at this moment I sketched in my earlier thread. There are two branches of Hung Gar. Modern Hung Gar, being the mix of a and b. And socalled village Hung Gar, as mentioned in c.

Tit Kiu Sam knew Tit Sin Kuen, which is Nam Siu Lam Hung Gar. Luk Ah Choy knew old Hung Gar like Lo Han (Fuk Fu Kuen), the 5 animals of Hung Gar (probably seperate) and Fa Kuen. I don't think Luk Ah Choy knew Tit Sin Kuen. In those early days Kung Fu practitioners specialised in things that fitted them and worked for them. There was no fixed curriculum. They just wandered around learning from different masters. Eager to become better fighters (and not perfomers).

Also Wong Fei Hung and Lam Sai Wing learned skills from different masters. And nowadays we have to stick to our style, otherwise we are heretics. Social control they call it.

Niko, maybe you can inform this forum about the curriculum of Luk A Choy.

Ling

[L D S]

MaFuYee, this is not common knowledge.
In the beginning Hung Gar was not one form. It was not even called Hung Gar. And the forms where just Lo Han forms and Siu Lam's five famous animals.
Indeed people did have enough technique when they learned a whole form. Forms were pretty long in those days.

Ling

[DF]

just want to say, good discussion so far.
Keep it coming :D


DF

[L D S]

Hey Dixon,
I'll appreciate this compliment.
The only thing is, you never can tell where this discussion goes. And Niko has to come out in the open. I still have the feeling he's hiding under another name.

Probably will be going to Fo Shan for the Wong Fei Hung celebration tomorrow. Heard there are a lot of Americans and Europeans getting together.

Ling

[DF]

The rest of the Yee's clan should be arriving in China about now. I hope you guys will have a great time, nice Gar Family reunion from different lineages of WFH. I am so jealous I cannot be there, but someone has to stay behind lol :mad: :o :D
DF

[L D S]

Dixon, we will go to the new museum to be opened in Foshan under the guidance of the wellknown Hung Gar Sifu Chiu Chi Ling.
It's a pitty for them they don't have the Wong Fei Hung Training Centre on their programm in Xijiao, the birthplace of Wong Fei Hung. Here still parts of the original Bo Chi Lam are to be seen.
web page (http://www.huangfeihong.com)
They will turn it into a kind of Chen Village I heard.

Anyone out there that can add something to this topic. Holliday is over.

Ling

[Paul Skrypichayko]

(jïnghóngliănyì)

Ling, how did you make the san sheng symbol?

[Tao]

Exactly. You only need one form to get **** good. Not many. However, if you want to learn more than one form. That's okay too. Just make sure you mastered the basics, have a proper foundation, and master one form before going to the next. If not, you are just wasting your time. However, the amount of time this will take depends on the individuals inherant abilities and the amount of work that he or she puts into it. By the way, whether you know one form or many, you never stop learning. Even a master still considers himself a student. The reason is because he never ceases to acquire knowledge in his art. The more you practice, the more will be revealed to you.
Kung Fu is a way of life.

[Tao]

I reside in the Franconian region of Bavaria, Germany. Surrounded by mountains and vineyards. Good for training.

Why were you puzzled by my post? "Peace to Evert, Rene, Justin, Ming and the whole Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga family...."? I met these HK brothers on this forum and from what I have heard so far, they really seem to know their art, and have the true spirit of Gong Fu. I met them when you were bad mouthing me online, and they were some of the descent people who gave me intellectual discussion. If you look at my profile it says that I am interested in meeting new CMA friends on line. If you remember, I also greeted others as well. Let me remind you. I said: Peace to the Fut Sao or Buddha Wing Chun family; Sifu Leung, Ray, James, etc. Notice, they are not HK but they are still my Gong Fu brothers. Are you also puzzled by that? Maybe this might surprise you further....Peace to the Yee Hung Ga family, Yi Chi Wai Sifu, Hal, Fernando, Tony, Pedro, Peter, Zsuzxana, Chris, Matthew, etc. I can say peace to other schools too, such as the Kenny Gong camp, the Wai Hong camp, by the way peace Hui!, etc.
In other words, I have brothers all over: in Sil Lum Hung Kuen, Sil Lum Wing Chun, Sil Lum Choi Li Fut, Wu Dang Hsing-I, etc. East Coast, West Coast, Europe, etc. And so what? This is a forum
isnt it? Where you meet new people, catch up with old friends, learn, exchange information, etc. In
fact, I'll even say peace to you. Maybe you'll be puzzled by that too. If not, good. If so, that's
okay too. Just master slow breathing, it calms the wind energy rising from the Liver.

Peace

[L D S]

Hi Niko, back again? Don't be so upset. Maybe you have to practice slow breathing yourself ;)

We can get back to the initial discussion, if there is still time for that. I was telling my wife I was doing some Ga Foh (homework) on my PC.

Peace

Ling

[Tao]

Sometimes I get motivated and jump into a discussion because the direction is good and serious. If the direction (politics) of the dicussion is wrong, I leave the dicussion entirely. Intellectual discussion is good and interesting. A discussion littered with ego and political debate is ignorant. I am an eager practitioner with some good connections worldwide. We practice, exchange and support one another with serious information and documents. An open mind leads to open interaction, leading to more knowledge and wisdom. After many years I eventually compiled an archive of unique information. Because of my cultural background, I can read several languages such as Spanish, French, German, etc. As for the Chinese books and articles I acquired. I can read some Chinese too, but not enough to translate the complex parts. With the parts I am unable to translate I, I get help from my Chinese brothers. More important is that you recognized some parts. One more thing, I am astonished that you Ling, still think I am hiding myself. Even if I was an Eskimo in Alaska, does that matter to what I am saying? Do you think that only a few possess The Knowledge. Believe me, I met people with an enormous amount of rare knowledge, but none of them choose a forum as a place to start serious
interaction.

I was lucky in my martial arts career to meet at least three teachers who were very open to me. They had serious things to say, and right now I can say 'rare' information. One of my last goals was to practice with Kenny Gong, another special teacher (!), but I was too late. However, I was fortunate enough to practice with one of his students. Muslim by the way. Which is not surprising since Hsing-I is a Chinese Muslim art.

Niko is my name, simple is that. And as I told you in a previous response, I have only lived a few months in Germany. Currently I am orientating myself to study TCM or the art of Die Da. And yes, I currently had contact with a Nam Siu Lam Hung Ga Kuen teacher; Justin Ehrlich about this specialization. Does this make me suspicious?

Let's go back to your question. From a colleague in Singapore I received a scanned copy, on it the curriculum of Luk A Choy. This copy is from a book (I think) by a Malaysian author, and is (in my opinion) not complete. That is if you know the dates and history of Tit Kiu Sam, and Luk A Choy. As you read, there are many interesting subjects to start a serious discussion:

The text discussed six students of Gee Shan Sim Si: 1)Hung Hei Goon 2) Wong Kwan 3) Luk Ah Choy 4) Tse Ah Fook, 5) 'Laan Tau' Hoh and 6) Taam Ji. Below is the translation of Luk
Ah Choy's curriculum:

A student of Gee Shin, a kungfu brother of HHG and teacher of Wong Kay Ying. He taught Wong Kei Ying Hung Ga Kuen in the "Hoi Tong" temple in (Canton.

His curriculum in the beginning of 1800 was:

1. Mui Fa Kuen (Plum Blossom Fist),
2. Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen, (Character "I"- Taming the Tiger Form)
3. Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen (Tiger Crane Boxing)
4. Ng Ying Kuen (Five Animal Boxing Form)
5. Ng Hang Kuen (Five Element Boxing)
6. Tit Sin Kuen (Iron Wire Boxing)
7. Ng Long Pa Kwa Kuen (Fifth General Yang's
Stick)
8. Mui Fa Cheung (Plum Blossom spear)
9. Ji Mo Do (Butterfly Knives).

Some minor curriculum conclusions:

None of the other students of Gee Sin Sim Si did: Mui Fa Kuen and Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen,

Only Hung Hei Goon did Fu Hok,
And on Taam Ji's curriculum was Tit Sin Kuen too,
But..... Saam To Kuen (Three Path Boxing) and Saam Tsien Kuen (Three Battle Fist) were in it mostly. These forms are known as the 'Sanchin' of Southern Siu Lam Boxing.

[L D S]

Some short notes as reply.

Thanks for sharing with us.

Lineage like Venerable Master Chee Sim – Luk Ah Choy – Wong Kei Ying – Wong Fei Hung – etc. makes sense. Although many Hung Ga schools use different lineages.

Venerable Master Chee Sim had the following students: Hung Hei Kun, Luk Ah Choy, the three brothers Fong, the monk Saam Dak (three virtues), Tse Ah Fook, a Hakka called Tong. The latter did not learn the whole system. This all according to oral, and probably legendary tradition.

Luk Ah Choy’s curriculum looks rather strange to me. Seems like in the first part of the 19th century he already had a curriculum that just started a hundred years later. Unbelievable to me. A not trustworthy source as I may so. Or can you defend this.

For me modern Hung Ga curriculum starts with Wong Fei Hung and Lam Sai Wing. They developed Hung Ga as we know it today.

Just going upstairs to workout now, cause I’m a rooftop practitioner. It’s just a quarter past six. Good for doing Tit Sin with slow breathing ;)

Ling

[Tao]

My compliments about your sources. You recognized most of the translations, and I agree completely with your view on Luk Ah Choy's curriculum. After observing these individual curriculums (from Gee Shan's students) so many times, it's nice to have an impression about some sources and the direction of it. True or false. I think with the discussed and published letters (over the last year) we all come to the same conclusion. Therefore, it seems that the Forum might be an interesting media through which one can convey one's ideas, when used with respect.

In my opinion, I would not classify Sam Tak Woseung as a disciple of Gee Sin. Although there are some strong historical links between them. But as you know, there are also between Gee Sin and Ng Mui (for instance). Exchanging knowledge with each other was NOT a teacher - student relation. In my opinion, the relation was brotherhood. Both representing their own truth and specific systems under one umbrella - Siu Lam Boxing.

LING: For me, the modern Hung Ga curriculum starts with Wong Fei Hung and Lam Sai Wing. They developed Hung Ga as we know it today.

You are correct. That's why Hung Kuen is a (modern) system, younger than 100 years, but with some great old roots. Around 1900, Wong Fei Hung was much older and possibly found it neccessary to refine some systems. It also seems that he loved practicing the art of Iron Wire Boxing. So he decided to add techniques and principles in the other systems, such as Siu Lam Fook Fu Kuen and old Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen. So the great grandmaster of Hung Kuen -Wong Fei Hung, created a nice and new balanced system of Hung Kuen, representing internal and external concepts. Hardly seen in those days. But all roots are, BEAUTIFUL SYSTEMS ON THEIR OWN.

The circle is round again. Yin and Yang qualities are not only found in the sets, but also in the text. This was a nice chat with you, Ling. Time to focus on different subjects in life again, therefore I will go back to contemplation (but not for 7 years ;)

NIKO, from Germany

[This message was edited by niko on 08-26-01 at 05:44 AM.]

[phoenix-eye]

I don't care who is right or wrong here....

I am just amazed (and humbled) at the level of historical knowledge you guys have got. Keep it up - a well informed debate is the basis for all true learning.

That's why I am here in the first place.

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[L D S]

phoenix-eye, thanks for your compliment.

Historical and theoretical knowledge makes us understand our respective styles of Kung Fu better. But practical knowledge is always more important.
Theory and Practice are like sister and brother. They have the same parents.
Also you can say theory and practice are like Yin and Yang. They complement eachother. But more important they have to be in balance. There is no practice without theory.

Niko, does "I go back to complentation" mean that you will study your sources more critical?

You give Wong Fei Hung a lot of praise, and not without reason because his place in history is unparalleled.

But I doubt if there has ever been a "old Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen". For the following reasons.
a. Credits to Hung Hei Kun creating the form Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen are based on legend.
b. Before, in olden times, Southern Siu Lam was a slow and heavy style, characterized by its many repetitions. Gung Gee Fok Fu Kuen is an example of this older Nam Siu Lam. The whole concept of Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen is the opposite of these type of movements. It's fast and light.
c. More important, we probably have to give Lam Sai Wing all the credits for creating this unique form, that sets modern Hung Gar way apart from the other Gar styles and systems based on (older) Nam Siu Lam concepts.

Ling

[CPS]

Hello Ling,

My compliments on your posts.
But, since you keep asking about who Niko really is, we don't know anything about you either.
So, if I may ask, who are you, who is your sifu, what styles have/do you practise, where do you live and where did you get all your knowledge?

Charris