Taking punches to the stomach

[IronFist]

It's that time again. This question gets asked every like 6 months so I thought I'd beat everyone to it this time :P

Everyone's all like "tense your abs and exhale." Yay. Let's make it more fun this time:

Is there a way to take a punch to the stomach without tensing the abs and leaving the abdomen relaxed? This would be way more efficient. Alright. Anyone?

IronFist

[Water Dragon]

Yield

[Former castleva]

It is not generally one of the most vulnerable areas,generally.
But getting hit to solar plexus or lower dan tien can both result in death,with some other pressure points and nerves too which may result in trouble.
In common sense,having strong muscles will help,but I guess that´s it.
And yes,there has been a conversation or two.

[Former castleva]

Almost forgot about special training like iron shirt which could help.

[dezhen2001]

learn to relax, yield or hit the punch first ;)

david

[IronFist]

How does relaxing prevent injury to the stomach? I think I've heard that stuff like this is discussed by Vladimir Vasiliev, but I haven't seen any of his videos. Has anyone here?

IronFist

[Hau Tien]

I've heard reference to the Iron Shirt techniques, but have no idea what they are... anyone here have any clue about them? What do they do? How effective are they?

[joedoe]

There are two types of iron shirt. Let's classify them loosely as hard and soft.

Hard iron shirt conditions the body to take blows by gradually getting used to taking hits. This is then often followed up with some herbal treatments to help the body take the punishment.

Soft iron shirt works through chi kung to help withstand blows.

Most systems utilise a mixture of both.

[anerlich]

I haven't seen Vladimir Vasiliev's vid's, but I have Scott Sonnon's "Shockability" series which address this and related subjects specifically. IMO excellent stuff.

If you tense up and/or hold your breath, your internal organs are locked in place and take the full impact of any strike. Relax, exhale and yield, and your internal organs move so as to allow the shock to be dissipated.

It works for me. It worked at Scott's Aussie seminar too, I saw him take UFC competitor Elvis Sinosic's best punch to the gut fairly easily.

I always think of Bruce Willis' "Head or Gut?" question in "Last Boy Scout" when this Q comes up.

[TaoBoy]

Hmmm...

We are always told hold hold a little bit of air in...and then exhale it quickly when struck. One way it was explained:

"If you hit a flat bicycle tyre with a hammer, the rim will be damaged. If you have air in the tyre, the strike will be dissipated and the rim will not be damaged."

It's a nice analogy.

[Serpent]

Yeah, but your body doesn't have a rim! The bicycle tyre has no organs inside of it. Sorry bud, but it strikes me as a flawed analogy.

You need to protect your frame (bones, muscles, etc.) and your internal organs. A combination of conditioning to take hits through iron shirt work and the abilty to move and yield is best IMO. Take what you can't avoid, avoid what you can and minimise anything in between.

However, the bike tyre analogy is right in one respect. You need to have air in you that you can expell.

[IronFist]

hey anerlich, you wanna let me borrow that tape?

Most of the iron body stuff I've seen is hard. You hit yourself in the stomach while the abs are tight, and the breath and chi are "sunk" down into the abdomen/dan tian. I can see how this would apply in a fight, but the abs would still have to be tensed I assume for it to work.

IronFist

[dezhen2001]

from the limited hard qigong training i have done, the abs are not 'tensed' in the same way as u would usually think, and the attitude is different. from the training, the dantian and around that area become very dense anyway, so no need to really tense them (like trying to show ur 6-pack or whatever), it's more relaxed than that. Of course the breathing naturally makes that area stronger, but still more relaxed. Also the attitude is more different - feels more like when the guy hits u, ur actually hitting them with ur stomach (or wherever they hit ya) :)

can't really explain it inwords as i need to train and understand more. I'msure someone with more experience can though :)

c ya,
david

[fiercest tiger]

punching to the solar plexus is done with a corkscrew type punch, 45 degrees as it fits in the hole and the ribs contour the fist.
Usally there are 3 strikes in forms like sarm bo jin and many other arts that strike this area as each strike will weaken the point. You want to hit that spot again and again not once. Does anyone use this type of knowledge with 3 strikes to once point?:)

cheers
FT:)

[fiercest tiger]

Sorry i forgot that YKM and Bak Mei use cotton belly training to absorb strikes. Getting hit in the abs is ok if your ready but i may hit your ribs and hit your abs after that. As a demo its all good to set yourself and get ready.:)

FT

[IronFist]

Describe cotton belly, please.

IronFist

[fiercest tiger]

Its soft like cotton!

Im not saying getting punched in the guts hurts, but the training helps to absorb the blow rather then take it.

[Former castleva]

Fiercest Tiger,
on punches,have not heard about that kind of combinations.
I suppose they would not be bad,except for opponents.
I have had the idea that one solid punch to SP has devastating effects.

[fiercest tiger]

I have heard that the nervous system has a protective barrier and the 3rd strike it has no protection. So therefore when there is 3 punches in a form it would be or could be aimed at the same spot as it is weaker in the same spot.:)

I could be wrong!:)
FT

[bob10]

Vladimir teaches a few different ways of taking a hit
- ride it by going in the same direction
- absorb it by "rippling" the body (there's a clip of VV belting a student on my site - watch how the guys body "ripples"
http://www.sctca.co.uk/Video/vvcond1.mpg
- kind of meet the punch on the way in, like you are trying to bounce it off

Tensing abs may work for some shots, but not those penetrating ones. BTW V V also works on dealing with punches that get in. His teacher Mikhail Ryabko does a lot of work in this area too, his punches are something else (iron shirt doesn't work against them!)

[Hiram]

Do LOTS of sit-ups :p

[neptunesfall]

deflect by turning your body.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Hau Tien
I've heard reference to the Iron Shirt techniques, but have no idea what they are... anyone here have any clue about them? What do they do

they really jack up your dry-cleaning bill

[neptunesfall]

i wouldn't say he's belting that guy.

[Flattop Monk]

Worrying about tensing and breathing while a strike is coming at your stomach is not realistic. In a real fight, things get crazy real fast, you can not see everything coming at you. Once you get clocked good, but are still conscious, your IQ and reflexes both drop for a while. That does not mean you lost the fight though.

A realistic approach it to train your midsection like a man possessed. Some Martial Artists really don't have the motivation to train the waist properly, or just can't take that much pain. In that case, you have to work even harder.

Do all kinds of abwork, full range situps and leg raises, especially situps while holding a heavy plate behing your head, make a V with your body and hold it untill you turn purple, get a pair of Iron Boots and do leg raises, get Matt Furey's Ab Wheel and go to work. (I have that gizmo, it is freakin awesome). Most important of all, get a heavy medicine ball and do leg raises or situps, and have a partner drop it your stomach between each rep. (A goodie from a school I used to train at years ago.) When you can take a heavy medicine ball dropped on your stomach from shoulder height for about 5 minutes, you will not have to worry about getting hit in the stomach as much.

I trust this approach a lot more than tensing, breathing, balancing the yin and yang, chi flow or other questionable theories.


Live Strong!!

[dezhen2001]

Flattop Monk: have you ever seen or trained hard qigong? I'm sure some of the methods we use would be an eye opener for you... For example, right now i am using a brick wall to condition my back and head, also things like bricks, my own fists, other people ;)... later on things like wooden sticks and other things.
But more importantly breathing and meditation. If you can't use your body in the correct way, connected with breathing in the correct way (what is Qi after all?) then your training is ineffective and generally doesn't work.

Also theres no need to prepare once you reach a certian level... it just is there. Of course i need to train more :D

In my own experience i have found this training to make me denser and stronger than even when i trained boxing and muay thai before i found my Sifu...

just my own experience,
david

[Flattop Monk]

Dezhen 2001:

No, I have never formally studies qigong- (is that the same as chi kung)? I have studied the Arts for over 10 years, and did a whole lot of cross training. I am not knocking what you are doing, but my point is that anything worth while takes a lot of hard work. The majority of martial artists don't train abs hard enough, some schools torture you with abwork as part of every class. Too many don't.

It is very hard to worry about proper breathing while you are fighting for your life against an experienced bruiser. You won't see everything coming at you. I know from experience that a strong set of abs are always with you. In my school, the sifu would make you hold your feet 6 inches off the floor for very long periods of time, and would proceed to stand on our stomachs. He used to jump up and down on mine for quite a while. Not much fun. Someone close to 200lbs standing on your stomach gets heavy sooner than you think. That was not the whole stomach session, believe me.

If what you do works for you, more power to you. Anyone who beats himself up with a brick wall, bricks, etc, is serious about training. But I have seen seriously out of shape Internal Strength guys get annihalated in tournaments. I pity them on the street against a p*ssed off gorilla. Remember, most of today's NHB champions don't know the first thing about chi. They ALL know the pain of serious ab work.

[dezhen2001]

Qigong and Chi Kung are just different ways of spelling the same chinese words in english :)

People who train hard get benefit, other people who don't... well don't. Doesn't matter what it is in. People who train hard in anything know how difficult it is. But not just pain - mental anguish, frustration... so much more. That's why training hard develops a good attitude.

As for worrying about proper breathing - that's what training is for... so it becomes natural. You learn how to breathe deeply using all your lungs and body, develop a good posture. Why do u think many people are unhealthy these days? Coz they have bad posture and don't breathe properly... if ur not healthy at least, how can u even think of fighting? If your body isn't strong - how can u even do any techniques correctly? (whether u know how to do them or not).

i think that side of things is universal :)
david

[bob10]

Originally posted by neptunesfall
i wouldn't say he's belting that guy.

Well he's working surface strikes but they are painful enough. It's hardly tickling is it?

[fiercest tiger]

A good rib punch and then attack the abs should do it to loosen the guy up.:)

FT

[TenTigers]

FT-Sam Jien Kuen uses double impact fung-ahn choi to solar plexus as well as other vital points. The first strike is palm up, the second strike rotates over and slightly downward at penetration. Kind of creating "shields at half-power, shields down" Sam Jien Kuen also teaches absorbing strikes. First level the body is Absorbing on exhale, the second level, the body is absorbing on inhale. By stepping foward into them (before the wrist is tensed at impact) you can break, or sprain someone's wrist. As far as cotton belly, I have never seen this, although I have heard of Kenny Gong's students absorbing blows while totally relaxed. Couild you go more into how cotton belly is trained?

[fiercest tiger]

Hello,

You must be totally relxed to absorb the punch and have perfect timing.

[guyborg]

to start early on.... Taoboy? r u sure u should sharply exhale on impact? i would have thought that you retain the air though a little my escape(like a slowleaking tyre) anyway using your analogy if u whack a car tyre and it pops(exhales sharply) u still buckle the rim and destroy it....

as for Serpemt if the bike analogy is flawed and we have to protect the frame.... what is a rim? i thought it was the frame of the wheel? anyway u r right that internal organs need protction.

our school teaches a combination of tence abdomen and pumped up abdomen.... as you progress you lose tension and gain pumpedupness(new word!!) also you learn to deflect conected blows by turning your stomach on impact, skewing the energy off coyurse and minimising impact.

as for in the 'real world' if you train correctly u take your training with u, always leave some air in your lungs and learn how to move it around.

.....ohhh and 'cause this is my first post here hi!

[IronFist]

Welcome to KFO.

IronFist