a question for KC Elbows

[n0rmann]

KC Elbows --
I've never really spoken to you online, but I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about the 6-elbows system. I've never heard of it. Is it similar to other kung fu systems. What kind of training. Again, it's the only martial art I've read about here I've never heard of.

Thanks

Norman

[Water Dragon]

That's because he made it up himself.

[Badger]

It's the style where KC is making bacon sammiches....from the back all you see is his elbows moving so fast it looks like 6.

[KC Elbows]

Water Dragon is just jealous because my made up style has more online popularity than his "Consumption Fist".:D

OK, for the history, go to www.tai.hui.com

That site, unfortunately, does not have any pics of the style, but it's a good history section.

I'm working on putting together a website for six elbows, but that's gonna take me a long time before it's good enough.

Six elbows kung fu is actually sort of a nickname for a style that has gone under the following names:

tai hui
mi chuan
luk chua bi da(I'm fairly sure that's spelled wrong, I'm doing some research to get the correct spelling, plus hopefully, once I get ahold of the guy, scanning a calligraphy of the actual symbols)

The style is descended from hsing yi, pa kua, and mantis, like many other styles, has five animals influences. It's a southern internal style made up of one very long internal form and a spear form. In the US, Chun man sit was the person who brought it over from Hong Kong, and he made several intermediate forms to lead up to the internal form, basically starting external, and gradually leading to the internal. Those forms are:

The basic form of six elbows
Continuous Canon Fist, still a beginning form, but with more of the signature six elbows in it
Little Buddha-Intermediate level, working combos and involving applications from off of the original internal form.
Bi Da-More advanced and entirely made up of applications from the original internal form.

I have practiced under chun man sit, and now practice under Mike Reyes, a prodigy of Sit's who has been teaching out here for a few years. Under Mike, we do not do the continuous canon fist routine, but otherwise we practice the same forms.

There are a number of key fundamentals one needs to always practice when doing six elbows:

1) Always affect your opponent-basically, attack the structure, not the target. Once the structure is gone, the targets will be infinite.

2)Plugging the Hole-plugging the hole basically means that if a target is open, strike it repeatedly until the moment the opponent is about to cover that target, then attack the opening the opponent reveals while trying to defend the first target.

3)Throw with your whole body- In other words, do not just throw with the arms, weaken your opponent's footwork, affect their hips, only throw them when they are already going to fall in order to reduce the force needed.

4) Drop the elbows

5) Utilize peng.

6) If the opponent gives you force, use it against him

There are a number of practices we utilize to achieve these things:

1) Sticky hands- a free flowing activity like wing chun sticky hands meets push hands, circular, utilize controlled force, always seeking to plug the hole by breaking down your opponent's structure.

2) Six elbows stance- designed for leg chin nas and throws, the main stance is very difficult to describe, reminiscent of pa kua meets hsing yi, basically like the stance hsing yi uses, but with the lead foot perpindicular to your center line, yet the kua open(requires knee flexibility and one MUST be able to hold the stance with the weight to the rear leg).

3) A series of chi kung drills, covering the basic motions of six elbows: chin sau, wan sau(sp), pau sao(sp)

4) the four hand postures: crane variants

5) the six elbows: discreet, collapsing, crashing, uppercut, peeling, rolling

6) The triangle step- stepping 45 and then invading the center of the opponent's stance for striking or throwing

7) The wrap- basically a method of sweeping, screams hsing yi

By my understanding, though the internal form is very long and seems to cover a multitude of techniques, each step can be broken down to a specific combination of six elbows stance or another kung fu stance with wan sau, and/or pau sau, and/or chin sau, with a shuffle called biu ma, again very similar to the hsing yi shuffle.

Six elbows is chock full of short fah jing, which suits its close range philosophy. One of the names for six elbows basically translates to "Stepping forward while crushing your opponent into a corner", which explains why it became easier to call the style six elbows.

I have seen some footage of hong kong practitioners doing the internal form. Chun man sit's teacher is absolutely amazing, his form is effortless, and his joints are supple in a way I'd never seen before.

[n0rmann]

Thanks for the info.

Sounds very interesting. I'll have to read up on the history.

[Nanking '28]

Hi ya'll... Ive been reading all this here and decided to go ahead and join in all the fun of beating up on KC Elbows (Just kiddin dude, I dont even eat bacon) But Ive heard of Six Elbows Form, we practice a very short form that Sifu calls 6 Elbows...it consists of various movements involving the low Ma-bu stance, incorporating li/splitting, shou/elbow-arm, an/sink and ji/press from Taichi, the tong long (?) posture from the northern! mantis, and aspects of chouai jou throwing and footwork. To me this form gives a bit of an external workout while acting as a facilitator for moving the chi and issuing jing. It is a very 'springy' form which requires quick 'jingy' strikes and fluid punches, stepping and throws.

I dont feel like there is any hsing i or ba gua ideas at play in our form, but who knows what all is out there in this post-Lee martial world. I have seen a composite style of Mantis Fist, Chen Taiji, and Dragon style Ba Gua taught by a local teacher to high level students but I dont know about mixing hsing i with mantis, wasnt hsing i designed with the Mantis Tong Long Arms in mind...???

[KC Elbows]

Nanking,
I'd be curious to see that form.

"it consists of various movements involving the low Ma-bu stance, incorporating li/splitting, shou/elbow-arm, an/sink and ji/press from Taichi, the tong long (?) posture from the northern! mantis, and aspects of chouai jou throwing and footwork."

The horse stance is not particularly prominent in the internal form to six elbows. Keep in mind that the commonly used nickname for the style in the US is six elbows, but the actual name generally used for the form is, and again, this is probably mispelled, luk chua bi da. I'm trying to get a cantonese friend to help me to get the actual spelling, once I get a pic of the calligraphy of it. However, it is hard to judge whether there is a relation to the style I practice, and the form you are talking about. There is a lot of throws in my system, so there is that commonality.

"To me this form gives a bit of an external workout while acting as a facilitator for moving the chi and issuing jing. It is a very 'springy' form which requires quick 'jingy' strikes and fluid punches, stepping and throws."

Again, I can see commonalities. Whether that's because many attributes can describe most kung fu, or because there is some link between what I practice and what you are descibing I don't know. Moving the chi, and especially issuing jing, is a major point in what we practice. However, the approach to it in the original tai hui system is decidedly internal, very slow paced form, connectivity a must, jing only inserted after a long time of doing the form, etc. Now I'm really curious to see this form.

"I dont feel like there is any hsing i or ba gua ideas at play in our form, but who knows what all is out there in this post-Lee martial world."

Here's the one point where I can say that what I practice is not entirely related to what you are describing. Zhang Hongchao, a teacher in the Chicago area who I learned longfist from, immediately related the six elbows form to hsing yi. As has every hsing yi practitioner who I have met who saw the form. The pa kua is fairly obvious stuff, too, especially in getting to the opponents weak side, and crazy turns from there.

As for the post Lee era, this is a form that is pre Lee. I've seen some fairly old footage, and it's clear that the practitioner(my teacher's teacher's teacher, don't know what the chinese term would be for that) clearly has been doing the form for ages, and it is the main style he taught.

On the mantis: there is one technique that is central to the six elbows system borrowed from mantis, though it is clearly modified to comply with the needs of the six elbows boxer. My knowledge of mantis is not particularly strong, so I cannot tell you the name of the technique, but it involves a shin to shin chin na, with the weight to the rear. How prominent is mantis in tai hui? I would say not nearly so much as pa kua and hsing yi, but it's there. Why is it there? I don't know. I suspect it might be in there to help deal with fighters who try to keep their distance and kick, as it basically traps them into close range, but I would not call myself an expert.

Nanking, I am working on putting together a website for six elbows(not a school related thing, just a site I'd like to put together so that others could see six elbows). When I get that together(it will probably be a while), I would like to get you to look at what I put up of the form and tell me if it has any similarities to the form you are talking about. Who knows, maybe someone took that form, applied pa kua and hsing yi(and a little mantis), and turned it into something else. In any case, I like it, and it keeps the bullies from stealing my lunch money.:D

[dezhen2001]

nothing to add guys, just wanted to say good luck with it KC, i would be interested to see and hear more about your style also :)

Hey, wish i knew that when guys were stealing my lunch money... as it was i developed my tree climbing skill, iron crotch (poled & wedgied) and iron head (head flushed) :(:D

david