Chi Sau against Big Arm

[black and blue]

Was training last night (a rough one - got elbowed in the eye) and had big, big problems.

I'm pretty new to Chi Sau so if the answer is obvious to this question, please humour me and reply in simple terms :)

The guy I was working out with is about 16 stone (compared to my 12 and a quarter stone) and built like a brick sh*thouse. His arms are huge - about twice the meat than on mine.

When I Chi Sau with him the size of his arms alone seems to close gaps/attacking angles, esp. if I'm trying to attack the neck (I'm not really trying for cheap shots to the shoulder ;)).

How can I use his bulk against him? I tried pivoting and turning to create new angles, but as expected he mirrors my movements. The two of us are the same grade, and about the same standard I'd say. My advantage is that I'm perhaps a little more relaxed and a little faster - his advantage is that he's got arms I just can't see to get past/through.

Any off the cuff ideas?

[S.Teebas]

My advantage is that I'm perhaps a little more relaxed

So work on sensitivity. Forget his arms and attack the body.

[Mr Punch]

My immediate, unconsidered and typically hurried response is:

keep practising!

Not very helpful eh?

OK...

don't worry about dynamics with tricky opponents specifically just yet if you're relatively new to chi sao.

Soften. Use the opportunity to check your structure (and rooting). The softer you are in this case, the less you'll telegraph. And don't rely on speed right now, keep it slow, even if you get tagged... it's better to practise precision in your structure, and when to yield to bring him on to your strikes.

How's his energy? Forward, downward, reluctant, hesistant, non-existant...?!

Chi sao is a learning drill, not a fight/fight situation/simulated fight. If you have the same trouble sparring... then maybe you should kick him in the nads! I mean... relax, he's bound to overcommit sooner or later!

Gotta dash!

[Mr Punch]

**** you S.Teebas! One sentence to my paragraph!!

Follow S.Teebas's advice...!

[black and blue]

OK. More chi sau is the answer. :)

S.Teebas - I want to attack the body/head... I just can't negate the arms in the way :)

Mat: His energy is kinda neutral. Not pressing forward until he attacks or counters. HIS ARMS ARE LIKE WALLS :(

I will Chi Sau more often and work more on structure and sensitivity. I guess for now I have to just take the hits. (though hopefully no more to the eye)

His favourite attack springs from a reverse larp sau. Feels a bit like being sucked into two tree trunks made of ham, and then clouted with a hand the size of a whole pig.

Not sure he'd like my references to pig meat!:cool:

[stuartm]

Hi B&B,

Difficult one to answer, but i will try and put forward a few relevant ideas:

1. Accept the fact that his Chi Sau may just be a little better than yours at the moment. Try concentrating on your lok sau more, checking positions and energy.

2. Is your opponent beating you with skill or strength. Sometime a bigger or stronger opponent will just hassle you using his power. Just concentrate on maintaining your centre rather than slipping into the mentality of 'scoring points'.

3. Footwork. Turning will obviously help, but also try to be more mobile with your feet and hand positions. Try moving from inside to outside gate quickly and utilise your footwork. You sound like you are the same build as me, and i try and utilise my build to attack/defend from as many positions as possible.

A true story: I used to train in my old association with a body builder who was over 18 stone and agressive with it!! At the time i had been training about year and a half, while he had practised on and off for several and was at Bil jee level. He would knowk me all over the place and give me some nasty digs ! However, i realised aftr training with him a while that the more i moved, the more he lost his structure. I would move in one direction, and as soon as he followed i would attack and move immediatedly into another position. This was much more effective. You will alwalys find that a partner has a particular strength, so you have a couple of choices: learn to defend against that strength or learn how to avoid it - ideally learn both !! My first teacher had an incredibly powerful larp sau (rip your arm of stylee!) so i soon learnt to pin with bong or larn sau. He then learnt my defence and used to try and put an arm lock straight on, i then learnt to go straight into bil sao to avoid the lock! Get it ?

Guess what im saying is that its all a learning curve. Just keep training - there will always be someone better - thats the human condition. You seemed to have learnt the most important lesson - recognising your weaknesses and trying to correct them.

If its any consolation, my student of 6 months gave me a decent clout the other week - I dint do anything wrong, its just that he did something right !!

Good luck !

Stuart

[Matrix]

Originally posted by black and blue
My advantage is that I'm perhaps a little more relaxed and a little faster - his advantage is that he's got arms I just can't see to get past/through. Of course like all things practice is required. Rather than pure speed, your answer probably lies in timing of the attack. Your opportunity lies in the transitions.

Also, I would be thankful to have a bigger and stronger guy working with me. It's frustrating now, but you are the one who has the most to gain in this situation. The long-term benefits are excellent for you. Your frustration will turn to strength if you persevere. Relax, do not think of trying to "win" or "beat" or "strike" your opponent. Just work on your sensitivity, structure, timing, and control of the center and in the long run you will come out much further ahead.

Cheers,

Matrix

[black and blue]

Food for thought. And yes, Matrix, I can see the benefits of training with bigger partners.

If someone jumped me in the street, I'd doubt if they'd be much bigger than this guy! :)

[Atleastimnotyou]

you said "16 stone".... am i the only one that doesn't know what that means?

Corey

[Alpha Dog]

1 stone = 14 lbs, I believe

[S.Teebas]

I want to attack the body/head... I just can't negate the arms in the way

Perhaps i sould have used the word 'affect' his body.

I think what you mean is your ARMS can't handle his arms, but your body can. Work on structure.

[12345]

How good is he at defending the centre. Sometimes people do not keep their arms in and you can get body shots in just by converting say your tan to a punch and hitting. I've had people tell me that is a cheap shot but if I keep hitting them with it who cares.

Another similar move is just to huen him with you tan by just dropping the wrist a fraction - it just opens them up enough to low palm them - the trick is to open them up with a subtle movement - again this may work if he is ridgid and is not that sensitive.

Do you use much pulling in your chi sao. Try a little grab and pull occasionally - not necessarily to pull them over just to shock them a bit - if he is ridgid this might work quite well.

I agree with what S Teebas says about moving him using your structure - however if you are similar level and he is a lot bigger I think this may be difficult. For me though the ability to start shifting people about using your structure is a sign that you are getting somewhere. One way that might work is using the bong sau to drive into them in a Wong Shun Leung lineage sort of way - this really works against people that are not from that lineage and who haven't got a lot of experience - it's a bit of a chi sao special but you should be able to move him with it.

ALso do they sometimes overcommit by going across their body ? - you can throw an attack at the face and if they push it across just fold your attack into a pinning/striking elbow.

What do you think - any use? I've kept them simple because I don't know anything that isnt. :D

[Nat from UK]

Be honest and open with him, tell him you are having problems dealing with the size of his arms. Ask him to slow his movements down so that you can experiment in getting past him. Keep experimenting until you find a solution. Then get him to speed up again.

If he wont slow down to allow you to experiment Chi Sau with someone else. If your partners are not prepared to help you improve and develop then I would question their motives in engaging in Chi Sau with you in first place.

Footwork may be the key as mentioned by others. Look at some of your seniors how do they cope with his size, you may be able to get some pointers from watching them.

Nat from UK

[Alpha Dog]

Seems like this fella is getting advice on how to overcome the monster's size advantage -- wouldn't that imply that the goal here is to beat him?

Now, everyone KNOWS chisao is not about beating your opponent, it's about practicing Wing Chun with your Wing Chun brother.

I think you should just endure the monster for a while -- focus on the shortcomings his size reveals in you and work at strengthening those. If his weight pushes you back, focus on trying to stay your ground; if his fat arms are so fat there is no centre line to be found, try anyway. When you get up against a normally sized person your skills will be all the better for it. Dance around him and that's all you'll ever do.

oi