The horrible belt syndrome

[Snakey]

I personally train in snake style and yang style tai chi chuan(which dont have a ranking system) but i have trained a little in shotokan and pakua which have belts.I have seen through my own experiences that the places that have belts are students that are plaqued with what i call THE BELT SYNDROME(some people call it the black belt syndrome)symptoms include a reluctance to train,fear of losing to someone with a lower belt
and a know it all attitude and a belief that your system is better.I have seen this to be a serious problem in all the dojos that have belts such as i stated before.I believe and i have seen through my own experiances that dojos that aquire the belt ranking system have students plaqued with the belt syndrome.Like i said i study tai chi and snake(which dont have ranks)And i have found that studying with tai chi students that are not plaqued by the same syndrome for the simple reason that they dont believe in belts.And i have also seen that it allows them including my self to focus more on our art and not whats around our waist.
When i went to study pa kua which had ranks I had many bad experiances with people afflicted with this syndrome.When i was a yellow belt i was practicing inside my dojo i was not wearing my belt at the moment but there was a gray belt which walked by and asked me my rank,i told him yellow and he said "oh i could kick your ass"
EXAMPLES LIKE THIS HAPPENED ON A CONSTANT BASIS IN DOJOS THAT HAVE BELTS OR SOME SORT OF RANK SYSTEM.That is just one of the many examples i have experienced.Ex:at the time i was a good at tai chi and snake so when i became yellow belt at pa kua they let me spar with any belt including black.WELL LET ME TELL YOU POEPLE I EASILY DEFEATED ALL THE STUDENTS THAT HAD BEEN STUDYING UNDER BELTS OR RANKS INCLUDING THE BLACK BELTS.
Maybe im wrong but i have seen nothing but negativity coming from people who attend dojos with rank.
I know you guys have a lot to say on this subject so let me know
PEACE OUT,ARROGANCE AND BELT SYNDROME LEAD TO DEFEAT

[sifuchuck]

Hey snake guy--
--I see you don't like the belt ranking system--it was my understanding that typically, CMA schools don't use it. There are usually levels to be attained in styles that have a lot to teach--like Hung Gar--but to my knowledge those schools that use a belt or sash color to denote rank or achievement do it on their own. Often it is done by a school that has a big concentration on tournaments and since the Korean and Japanese tournaments are usually laid out by belt color it's easy for the CMA students if they have a sash or belt system.

I teach a Kungfu/Lion Dance club for kids. They started it and they run it--I just teach the classes as a volunteer. At one of their earlier meetings about 6 years ago they decided to have a color sash awarded at each level. That's something they wanted to do. In the class or in demos or in tournaments I allow them to wear any color sash they want--so long as it dosen't clash with their uniform--and I teach them that the sash has practical purpose--ie, lower back support when practicing low stances or especially when using heavy weapons, in some cases keeping your pants up or closing your tunic if you have one that doesn't button.

So, I guess I agree with you in the case where the student is taught that a belt is the goal and an accurate measure of training experience and level of achievement. I think it can work if the students are really reaching that level. But it seems to me that what you have been experiencing has more to do with encountering schools that teach an over-abundance of ego and false-pride and lack humility.
good luck--don't let the turkeys get you down.
chuck

[Jimbo]

In the CLF school I attend there are belt rankings. My sifu started it in the 1960s because there are so many things to learn, he decided to systematize it in such a way.

Personally, I don't care about belt levels. All I care about is what skill level I can achieve. I have also trained in Mantis schools in Taiwan that had no belt rankings at all, so one way or the other doesn't bother me. Whether I test for rankings or not, I'm still at whatever level I'm at and trying to reach higher.

I think it just depends not only on the school itself, but on the individual student how his attitude will be affected by a belt or not. I've also seen in one of the above-mentioned Mantis schools with no rankings, nevertheless there was still rankings in order of when you joined the school. Even if someone barely trained and was not as good, if they joined earlier than you they were your Shr-hsiung (si-hing, older kung-fu brother). And a few would try to lord it over you because of that.
Jim

[Ish]

snakey, could you tell me a little about your snak training i.e where and how long you have trained.

I practice wing chun and my club has sashes that you can receive if you want. I choose not to because i dont see the point. it does however iritate me when people worse than me but who have sashes think they are better just cos they got a pretty coloured sash.

[Snakey]

Well you know ish snake is not the only art i do my main art is yang style tai chi chuan which i have been doing for some time know and i learn tai chi from a local dojo my sifu is the diciple of grandmaster ck chu of manhatten the long time rival of cc chen.But to answer your question about snake style i have studied snake from correspondence videos and from various poeple(not masters)I started learning snake because i always had in interest in learning an animal style but i wanted something that was special.I choose snake fist because i wanted to do something different then from other people are doing since most people who do practice animal kung fu dont do pure animal they do it mixed with other animal like hung gar or choy lay fut.

[The Whyzyrd]

Sharkey - it seems to me you have just had a run of bad luck. Both of the schools I have studied at (both Traditional CMA) have had belts and I have not experienced what you have. The belts have meant only one thing (and this is not only my opinion but what I have observed in the others I have trained with) - it shows where you are in your training IN THE SCHOOL ONLY. I can look at a person with a certain belt on at my school and I know what they should know.

And - of course - it means nothing outside of my school. Not even among the various branches. Only within my school among my training brothers and sisters.

It doesn't say they are a better fighter than me - it just means that they have passed a certain test. That is all. It means that if I have a question on a form I don't have to go around asking people for help who simply haven't gotten that far.

It's a shame that you have had such lousy reactions to the granting of belts. I personaly have nothing against them

"The Wolf does not regard the barking dog"

[The Whyzyrd]

I have also found that if I am helping someone of "lower rank" it lends credence to what I am saying if they can see the visible markings from Sifu that I know what I am talking about. Newer students who don't know anything about Martial Arts often want some affirmation that I am not full of sh*t. Mt belt says, "Well, at least Sifu thinks he knows at least more than me about this art" :D :D

"The Wolf does not regard the barking dog"

[HuangKaiVun]

When I open my kwoon, I'll have no rankings other than that of "recognized lineage holder".

People respect SKILL.

[Budokan]

I'm pretty big into JMA so I'm familiar with much of what you say. Even though my style uses belts I can tell you from experience they don't mean much other than a quick way to recognize skill level/groupings of people.

That's right, it's not the belt, it's the person.

Sounds like you've had some bad experience though with swell-headed people who think that just because they have a higher ranking they're automatically better than everyone below them. These people aren't true martial artists, IMO, but weekend warriors. They can be found in every style and frankly MA in general would be much better off without this kind of riff-raff.

My two yen.

K. Mark Hoover

[nobody]

i train in 8step mantis which was systemized by master sun. i have found nothing but honesty and a willness to help from the students with a "higher" sash then me. i think that has to do a lot with the teacher not just the students. the sifu, sensai, or whatever you call your MA instructor should from the start stress humility and honesty. if they do not do this people often run into these problems that you have run into snakey.

[iron_silk]

Many people here are right about the fact that it may not be the problem of the belt but of the person. For students who enter the school ahead of another, there is an unspoken feeling that those before should be better yet all this rely on the person.

I notice that much of the responses is from the point of view of the lower belt individuals when communicating with higher belts, yet for those with higher belts also feel the pressure of losing to a lower belt student.

If there were no belt then perhaps the shame would be less obvious. Yet this is still base on individuals

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Won't you think it would be a problem if a higher ranking studnet loses consistently to a newbie? Three is more than shame that is at stke - more so the quality of the teaching.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[The Whyzyrd]

That is of course true if you had two students who never trained before they get to your school. One newbie has an extra year or two of training then he should beat the newer student - hands down. BUT what if someone with many years of training changes schools? What then? He comes in as a newbie but he actually has more experience (in a different art) from the senior. What then. The teaching has nothing to do with it.

"The Wolf does not regard the barking dog"

[friday]

Someone i know is a black belt
he remembers the form work etc and studies it hard for each of the exams he has then after he passes he forgets it. he did tae kwan do. anyway i thought it was disturbing that this happens. Surely there are some ppl out there in belt systems dedicated to their style such that they will practice old forms learnt that aren't required for the exam for the next promotion in ranking. right???

888

[joedoe]

It's no different to the way kids study at school. Cram for an exam, then forget the material by the next day. I would have thought that if you were bothering to train in the MA though that you would try a bit harder.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[Budokan]

Wow, those must be easy tests. We always have to perform all our previous katas everytime we rank up.

You know, I keep hearing these horror stories about these kinds of chump schools that bend over backwards to make everything easy. I've been very fortunate that in the two schools I've trained in it was nothing like that. We actually have to earn our rank...

K. Mark Hoover

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Well, for starters that "newbie" should be ranked appropriately. For example, if your final year in medicine and you change "schools", it is not as though you'll be put in first year is it.

If it applies to the education system of other disaplins - why should martial arts be any different.

Just a bit of common sense will give you the answer!


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[nobody]

n/t

[iron_silk]

the new student doesn't have to have previous experience to make the point. Just because i was talking about a higher belt being defeated by a lower belt doesn't mean that the lower belt was a "newbie," they both could have trained for years but it's just that one is a better fighter or performer regardless of the belt rank or years spent.

[The Whyzyrd]

I'm with Iron Silk and Nobody.

If you come from a completely different style - then no, you should not (in my opinion) be ranked any higher than a true newbie. You will probably rise faster than a newbie simply because you will have a deeper understanding of Martial Arts in general but you may very well know nothing at all about the new art you are studying.

Imagine going from a BJJ school to a VERY traditional Shaolin School or from a very hard external system to a very soft internal system.

The differences are great enough that you may very well beat the crap out of someone who outranks on your first day but you don't necessarily deserve a higher rank in that school than everyone else who started that day.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

The Whyzyrd,

If by the very fact that the new student can consistently beat existing students then techically, the new student must have exceeded those exsiting students.

The new student by virtue of his / her ability should be ranked accordingly. Example you've studied 6 years of primary school, you change schools - unless you can't read they are not going to put you in Kindy! simple as that!

Tradition is not an issue! Don'y you agree?


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[The Whyzyrd]

In the example you use - yes you are 100% correct. The reason that is so is because no matter what school you go to (all within the same language sphere) you will be learning the same thing. In essence - reading english in Texas is the same as reading english in Idaho. A 6th grader in Texas would be able to read the same thing a 6th grader in Idaho can (particularly with National Standards for teaching).

Now - let's say you move from Texas to Hong Kong or Bangkok in 6th grade. You know English quite well but how good is your Chinese or your Thai? Do you belong in a 6th grade chinese class? No - of course not. If you were placed in a 6th grade chinese class you would sit there completely clueless for quite some time. What would happen is that you would be studying BASIC chinese. Chinese on a level below the local 1st graders (at least they speak the language).

Ok - now let's move this analogy over to Martial Arts. Let's say you spend 6 years studying Hung Ga. You then move to another state and decide to train with a different Hung Ga school. The Sifu would (probably) ask you to do the relevant forms, etc and place you accordingly. He would give you rank commensurate with your abilities because you speak and read the "Hung Ga Language". Now, if you decided to go study in a Praying Mantis school - you do not know ANY of the requisite forms and weapons required for ANY of the PM ranks. Would you advance quickly - yes. You already have a basic understanding of CMA but you would still need to learn the right forms and the right weapons for your new school.

If you are able to beat most of your instructors (ie senior students who are often in charge of running the classes) so be it. You will often be in a class where someone with say - 3 or 4 years experience is running the class. Can you beat him/her? Maybe.

So what does that mean? Should you be moved ahead simply because you beat them? No. You don't know ANY of the requsite forms. You know little or nothing about the Mantis way of doing things. You need to learn all of that before you qualify for rank. YOu will progress faster simply because you already understand MA.

Think about it. Let's say you are a world champion NHB competitor. YOu are one hell of a fighter. You run around the country challenging senior students in dozens of schools. YOu beat half of them. Does this mean you should hold rank in ALL of those styles? You beat a TKD Black Belt - are you a TKD balck belt? You beat a CLF Black Belt - does this mean you are ALSO a CLF black belt? You go on to beat BB's in Tai Chi and Judo and JKD and who knows what else. Can you then go around claiming to have a BB in ALL of those styles? You know that it isn't the case.

"The Wolf does not regard the barking dog"

[This message was edited by The Whyzyrd on 09-10-01 at 10:47 AM.]

[This message was edited by The Whyzyrd on 09-10-01 at 10:48 AM.]

[friday]

I agree with the above post. Makes sense. :)

cheers

888

[LiLong]

Hey I bought a belt too... Actually I have a couple to hold my pants up ;) . Well, seriously now. My system has sash levels. That only tells me who I can ask questions to :D. Nothing more.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

The Whyzard,

The common languagr understood by kung fu practitoners is the fist. The person who is most articulate in this language should therefore be in a higher rank. This is not to say that a higher ranking student cannot learn from a lower rank. Ranking measure the average highest skill which does not exclude the possiblity that there is a particular level of skill that a lower raking student has achieved to a higher level than a higher ranking student.

Using your example of a NHB figher, he beats up the mantis practitoners on a consitent basis. Yes, the NHB should immediately be promoted to a higher rank. It shows that the NHB figher has a set of skill above the other students.

How should the mantis instructor respond? Should be very pleased because this is precisely how mantis becamew such a fomidable fighting style - by assimilating other styles.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[kungfuyou]

Whyzard. Just because you can "beat someone up" doesn't make you knowledgable about that art.

So let's use your scenario. You have defeated a higher ranking student in PM. You are ranked above them. You are now looked to in class to "teach" the other students PM. Are you qualified to teach PM???? Not at all! You have no concept of that particular style. When a student asks, "how do you do...in PM?" What are you going to say. "I don't know. But I can show you how to do it another way!" That's not what the student is there to learn how to do, learn how to do it another way. If that was the case, they would not be at that school trying to learn PM. Hell, if I wanted to beat the **** out of someone, I'd go get a taser, and when they lie on the grown twitching, I'd stand over them and start kicking the living hell out of them.

The point is, you may be ranked high in one style, but that doesn't mean that you should granted the same ranking if you transfer to a different style. That has to be earned in that style. You just proved that you are a better fighter than the other person.

[The Whyzyrd]

Ego - you do have a good point and I grant that you should be looked upon in a certain light AND you should definitely be advanced quicker than another student who is a complete MA newbie.

I also agree 100% with kungfuyou. Any student who asks you a question about the style which you are learning won't be able to get a correct answer. So, until you have learned the new way to do something you should not get that rank.

"The Wolf does not regard the barking dog"

[PaleDragon]

People always ask me what belt I am...it makes me laugh cause I know pretty much everyone who doesnt study martial arts has their own ..."i whipped a black belts ass" story. I always have to explain that in kung fu belts don't measure skill and that I already know most black belts can't fight anyway(not worth arguing)...my si hing has many years background in kenpo...because of this he teaches a contemporary self defense class that has belts...but for his you have to test for every belt in the order plus the new one your taking(i.e- when you test for black, you have to pass yellow, orange, etc. all the way up...i believe thats the best way to do it.