How many ways can you use the Biu Gee thrusting fingers without leaving your centerli

[FIRE HAWK]

How many ways can you use the Biu Gee thrusting fingers without leaving your centerline ?

[yenhoi]

Vertical, horizontal, corkscrew?

[yuanfen]

As many as you want and can!
Mainline wing chun is amazing!

[anerlich]

Never actually thought about it, but lots. Four basic ones done in the form itself (horizontal in/out, vertical up/down).

To me bil jee is about darting around obstructing limbs, etc, to strike through small (or large) gaps, usng the wrist to determine direction and "curve" the strike as required.

Many argue that Bil Jee is for point hitting and "Wing Chun Dim Mak". According to Erle Montaigue and other alleged dim mak gurus, some of the dim mak points require striking at nonstandard angles for maximum bang for your buck.

So arguably many if not most bil jee strikes deviate at least slightly from the centre.

If I have to choose between "violating my centre" and damaging an assailant, I'll take option 2 thanks.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by anerlich
If I have to choose between "violating my centre" and damaging an assailant, I'll take option 2 thanks. Deviating from the centreline is not a violation of it.

[anerlich]

You might have noticed the quotation marks. For whatever it's worth, I agree with you.

[EnterTheWhip]

Got ya. I did fail to notice them.

[FIRE HAWK]

You said
To me bil jee is about darting around obstructing limbs, etc, to strike through small (or large) gaps, usng the wrist to determine direction and "curve" the strike as required.
Would this then be the snake kung Fu techniques and snake kung Fu that is in Wing Chun ?

[yuanfen]

Leung jan/Ip Man wing chun sublimated animal motions a long time ago.
Mastery of the human body in the motions is a wing chun characteristic.

[fa_jing]

I think you could observe the smoothness of a snake, the coiling action and the flexibility and it would positively influence some Wing Chun motions such as bil gee strikes around obstacles. Also my teacher showed me a motion where you pak one of the opponents arms and with the same hand in one motion, grab the other wrist. It seemed similar to the way a snake moves. Plus what Yuanfen said.

[yuanfen]

Hi fajing- that pak-lop combination is a good one- if you practice it right- again and again. Cheers- gotta get back to work- bye for a while.

[planetwc]

Firehawk,

You don't need to drag in the animal based styles in.
It doesn't buy you anything in terms of the hand techniques or structure of your Wing Chun.

Decomposing Wing Chun into some sort of constituent parts isn't going to get you something usefull.

Unless you are heading down the recombinant DNA or gene splicing path of fighting. Which smells like JKD only not as efficient. LOL.


Originally posted by FIRE HAWK

Would this then be the snake kung Fu techniques and snake kung Fu that is in Wing Chun ?

[FIRE HAWK]

Then why does these techniques that come from Gu Lao Wing Chun wich comes from Leung Jan and also the Cheung Bo San Sik have animal names for some of these techniques in this Wing Chun ?

[FIRE HAWK]

The Yee Sup Yee San Sao (22 Separate Techniques) is the routine practiced in one branch of Gulao Wing Chun Kuen in Guangdong province. It is organized as follows:

Hoi Jong (Opening Posture)
Bai Fut Sao (Praying Buddha Hand)
Chu Tei Pai Fut (Pig Hoof Praying to Buddha)
Yat Jee Fong Ngan Choi (Vertical Phoenix Eye Punch)
Sup Jee Sae Mun Fu Mei Choi (Cross Shape Four Gates Tiger Tail Punch)
Chang Gai Gerk (Support Chicken Kick)
Lung Chung Chu (Dragon Strives for Pearl)
Siu Nim Tao (Little Twisting Head)
Dai Nim Tao (Big Twisting Head)
Sam Jin Choi (Three War Punch)
Dai Gaun Sao (Big Cultivating Arm)
Dai Bong Gwa Choi (Big Wing Hanging Punch)
? Jeung (? Palm)
Lan Chang Jeung (Barring Supporting Palm)
Ngao Sao Chit Jeung (Canceling Arm Slicing Palm)
Sang Dim Jam (Living Point Chisel)
Chit Jee Na Kiu (Slicing Fingers Seizing Bridge)
Hok Bong Sao (Crane Wing Arm)
Tung Ma Biu Jee (Galloping Horse Dating Fingers)
Seung Lung Chut Hoi (Twin Dragons Emerge from Sea)
Gwai Ma Choi (Kneeling Horse Punch)
Lien Wan Sam Jeung (Continuous Three Palms)
Bat Gwa (Eight Directions)
Fook Fu (Taming Tiger)

[FIRE HAWK]

The Koo Ga San Sik (Koo Family Separate Forms), passed down from Koo Siu-Lung of Gulao village, of the Gulao/Pien San Wing Chun Kuen system are as follows:

Bak Ma Hien Tai (White Horse Presents Hoof)
Siu Lien Tao (Little First Training)
Bik Bong (Pressing Wing)
Mao Yee Sae Mien (Kitten Washes his Face)
Seung Biu Choi (High Darting Punch)
Ha Biu Choi (Low Darting Punch)
Yat Jee Choi (Sun Character Punch)
Siu Kam Sao (Little Seizing Hand)
Ng Lat Sao (Five Freeing Hands)
Fut Jeung Jiu Dei (Buddha Palm Pig Hoof)
Saam Pai Fut (3 Prayers to Buddha)
Hoi Jang (Open Elbow)
Lap Sao Biu Choi (Grasping Hand Darting Punch)
Yiu Ma Choi (Waist Horse Punch)
Fu Mei Choi (Tiger Tail Punch)
Gwai Ma Choi (Kneeling Horse Punch)
Bien Choi (Whipping Punch)
Bak Ma Hien Tai (White Horse Galloping)
Sao Sik (Closing Form)

Fu Jiao (Tiger Claw)
Kiu Mien Sao (Bridge Above Hand)
Saw Hao (Throat Locking)
Kiu Dai Jeung (Bridge Below Palm)
Saat Geng (Killing Neck)
Dip Jeung (Butterfly Palm)
Fu Mei Choi (Tiger Tail Punch)
Seung Lung (Double Dragons)
Seung Chit Bong (Double Slicing Wing?)
Gung Bo Pak Da (Bow Horse Slapping Strike)
Lai Bo Diu Gerk (Standing Horse Hanging Leg)
? Biu (? Dart)
Hoi Jang Chuen Jeung/Dip Jeung (Open Elbow Inch Palm/Butterfly Palm)
Pien Choi (Slicing Punch)
Lan Sao (Barring Arm)
Bien (Whip)
Chung ? (Middle ?)
Yik (Wing)
Chang Jeung (Bridge Above Palm)
Kiu Dai Jeung (Bridge Below Palm)
Kao Sao Biu Choi (Detaining Hand Darting Punch)
Bak Ma Hien Tai (White Horse Galloping)
Sao Sik (Closing Form)

[FIRE HAWK]

The Sae Sup Dim (Forty Points) is the routine of the Gulao Wing Chun Kuen system passed down from Tam Yeung of Gulao village to Kwan Jong-Yuen, and is organized as follows:

Jee Ng Choi (Meridian Punch)
Duen Kiu (Short Bridge)
Ba Gua Long Na (Eight Directional Dragon Grab)
Sae Mun (Four Gates)
Siu Fuk Fu (Small Subdue the Tiger)
Dai Fuk Fu (Big Subduing Tiger)
Pien San Choi (Slant Body Punch)
Pien Jeung (Slant Palm)
Biu Jee (Darting Fingers)
Wan Wun Yiu (Emergency Waist Bend)
Tiet Ban Kiu (Iron Bridge)
Chum Kiu (Sinking Bridges)
Gwai Ma Choi (Kneeling Horse Strike)
Pien San Jeung (Slant Body Palm)
Gao/Dae Jeung (High and Low Palms)
Lien Wan Fai Jeung (Linked Fast Palms)
Hok Bong (Crane Wing)
Dai Bong (Big Wing)
Jong Bong (Middle Level Wing Hand)
Noi Liem Sao (Inside Cutting Hand)
Ngoi Liem Sao (Outside Cutting Hand)
Fu Mei (Tiger’s Tail)
Gua Long Jeung (Hanging Dragon Palm)
Fu Biu Choi (Darting Tiger Blow)
Saam Jin Choi (Three Arrow Blows)
Saam Bai Fut (Three Bows to Buddha)
Dip Jeung (Butterfly Palm)
Siu Poon Sao (Small rolling hands)
Poon Sao (Rolling Hand)
Juk Da (Slanting Strike)
Juk Kiu (Slanting Bridge)
Dang Jeung (Hammer Palms)
Ping Lan Sao (Level Obstruction Hands)
Lui Kiu (Double Palms)
Chong Jeung (Thrusting Palm)
Fan Kup Choi (Flipping Upper Cut)
Kup Da Sao (Covering Hitting Hand)
Seung Lung (Double Dragons)s
Pien San Dip Jeung (Slant Body Butterfly Palm)
Chaap Choi (Piercing Strike)
Bik Bong (Pressing Wing Hand)

[FIRE HAWK]

The Fung Ga San Sik (Fung Family Separate Forms), descending from Fung Lim of Gulao village, organize the Gulao/Pien San Wing Chun Kuen system as follows:

Siu Lien Tao (Little First Training)
Duk Jeung (Thrust Palm)
Pien Choi (Slice Punch)
Seung Ha Biu Faat Lan Choi (High Low Darting Attacking Guard Punch)
Bui Gim Sao (Back Sword Hand)
Ngoi Kiu Sao (Outsie Bridge Hand)
Kiu Sao Chao Choi (Bridge Hand Pulling Punch)
Pien San Pek Ma Choi (Side Body Chopping Horse Punch)
Boon San Gwai Ma Choi (Half Body Kneeling Punch)
Saam Mien Dip Jeung (Three Face Buttefly Palm)
Pek Jeung (Chopping Palm)
Gaun Sao (Cultivating Arm)
Biu Jee (Darting Fingers)
Biu Choi (Darting Punch)
Chang Jeung (Supporting Palm)
Lan Kiu Pien Da (Barring Arm Slice Strike)
Sang Yee Hing Fun (Live Fish and Separate)
Lut Sao (Freeing Hand)
Got Sao Biu Choi (Chopping Hand Darting Punch)
Tok Sao Biu Choi (Uplift Hand Darting Punch)
Hop Ga Saam Choi (Combined Family Three Punch)
Kao Sao Biu Choi (Detaining Arm Darting Punch)
Sao Sik (Closing Form)

[FIRE HAWK]

Fung Ga Sup Yee San Sik

The Fung Ga Sup Yee San Sik (Fung Family 12 Separate Forms), descending from Fung Chun of Gulao village, organize the Gulao/Pien San Wing Chun Kuen system in 12 forms containing 3 points each, for a total of 36 points:

Siu Lin Tao (Little Training Set)
Dai Lin Tao (Big Training Set)
(Includes Saam Pai Fut (Three Prayers to Buddha))
Saam Jin Choi (Three Arrow Fist)
Biu Choi (Darting Fist)
Sup Jee Choi (Cross Shape Fist)
Lan Kiu (Barring Bridge)
Wu Dip Jeung (Butterfly Palms)
Jit Jee Kum Kiu (Slicing Fingers Seizing Bridge)
Hok Bong (Crane Wing)
Tang Ma Biu Jee (Jumping Horse Darting Fingers)
Wan Wun Yiu (Life After Death)
Fook Fu (Subdue the Tiger)
Extensions:

Dai Bong (Big Wing)
Fu Mei (Tiger Tail)
Lung Na (Dragon Grab)
Cup Da (Controlling Hitting)
Lin Wan Fai Jeung (Linking Fast Palms)
Seung Lung Chut Hoi (Twin Dragons Emerge from the Sea)

[FIRE HAWK]

The Sup Yee San Sik (12 Separate Forms) were formalized into the Sum Nung Wing Chun Kuen system by Sum Nung from the San Sao (Separate Techniques) taught by both his first teacher, Cheung Bo, and his second teacher, Yuen Kay-San. They are typically organized as follows (though there is some variation in content, order, and name from descendant to descendant):

Jee Ng Choi/Saam Sing Choi (Meridian Punch/Three Star Punch)
Pien (San) Choi (Side (Body) Punch)
Duk Lung Choi (Single Dragon Punch)
Jin Choi (Arrow Punch)
Yum Yeung Jeung (Yin Yang Palms)
Dap Noi Lim (Joining Inside Sickle)
Dap Ngoi Lim (Joining Outside Sickle
Noi Lap (Inside Grasp)
Ngoi Lap (Outside Grasp)
Saam Pan Jeung (Triangle Palms)
Pok Yik Jeung (Flapping Wing Palms)
Bak Hok Kum Wu (White Crane Seizes Fox)

[yuanfen]

Firehawk asks after an aelaborate listing:Then why does these techniques that come from Gu Lao Wing Chun wich comes from Leung Jan and also the Cheung Bo San Sik have animal names for some of these techniques in this Wing Chun ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So? Lots of TCMA use colorful language... Chen Style has several nmes for same famos motion including ... King kong pounds mortar.
No king kong seen around chen village!! You have to distinguish between colorful language and actual eagle claw imitation in northern eagle claw.
Things are not always what they seem.

[FIRE HAWK]

I also find it interesting that in the books Secret Techniques of Wing Chun by Author K . T . Chao a student of Yip Man he describes the Snake hand as the Shock Hand or jerking Hand and the Fook Sao as the Monkey hand so where did K.T. Chao get these animal names for his techniques he must have got them from Yip Man .there is a old poetic name that is in the Gu lao Wing Chun called the Cat Washing his Face this same name is in the 18 Arahat kung fu style and Lohan style . I think Yip Man and Yuen Kay San and other old Masters wanted to do away with calling some of there techniques animal names so in the 1930 s 1940 s 1950 s came up with some plain names to call these techniques intsead of animal techniques they did not want there art to imulate animals or the spirit of animals . But to deny that some Wing Chun techniques did not come from animals or animal styles is crazy .

[anerlich]

Hawky, you might be right in your suppositions but basically no one is ever going to know. I think there is room for the use of animal imagery (snake, crane, etc.) in WC but I expect the search for any hard links between WC and the animal styles is likely to remain inconclusive.

There's a "butterfly guard" and a "mata leo" (lion-killer) in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as well, but I can't trace that back to a CMA animal style (though some CMA stylists call similar positions to the BJJ guard "tiger suns its belly").