TMA in New York City?

[teazer]

I have an acquaintance living in Manhattan who is looking to start martial arts - as he says,
"I would like to learn something that will teach me good self-defense skills and keep me in good shape. I do not want to injure myself and be beat-up in the process. I'm not very flexible.I've done weight training for the last 7yrs and am not used to contorting my body or doing leg splits."

Now personally I have a predilition for pushing him towards Hsing-I, but not living in the big city, I'd rather point him at a quality & reputable instructor than pick a name out of the phone book.
He was thinking of tai chi, but suspects it would take longer than he'd like to be functional. So, that would restrict it to teachers of whatever style, who while into the early introduction of applicable fighting skills, handle their students with care & delicacy.
Sorry for the pickiness!!

I appreciate your input.

[Spirit Writer]

www.chan-internal-martial-arts.com

This man is the fourth generation inheritor of Imperial Palace Ba Gua under Master Wong, who got it from Gung Po Tien, who got it from the founder.

He is also very well known for his Hsing-I.

[count]

Dr. Su Yu Chang (http://www2.micro-net.com/~ycsu/mastersu.html)

[blacktaoist]

Sam Chin is the best in Manhattan in my opinion, he teach real practical form of combat. here is a link to his web site. http://www.iliqchuan.org/


Chan is alright also, as for Dr. Su Yu Chang, I know each time I vist his kung Fu class, I never saw them do any real kung Fu combat training, These guys mostly practice all kinds of forms, mostly Mantis.

[blacktaoist]

Also other good internal teacher That I know very well, is now teaching in Manhattan is wang Rengang. Here is a link to his web site:

http://www.geocities.com/dachengdao/

[count]

Blacktaoist,
Did you ask Master Su about combat training or any of his students fighting? :rolleyes:

Actually Wang Rengang is one of the newest members of this very forum. I never met him, but he seems really knowledgable, and a heck of a nice guy. You might check out the Yi Chuan thread down below. (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=15116) I was curious about his stuff too.

[teazer]

Thanks folks, for such swift replies

[blacktaoist]

Ok I just look at the link you give of Wang on kungFuonline. I can tell you first hand that is not Wang posting.

For one, Wang english is not that good, I train with the man at Li Tal Liang school many times, me and him are like brothers, and I'm very good friends with the man. Wang use to live at the school before he move, I use to hang out with him sometimes after practice so I know how good he can speak english. Also he can't even write english.

So I know for a fact that's not Wang posting, Also Wang not the kind of individual to post on these kinds of martial art web sites even if his english was good. Wang is a very low key person.

I see There are a lot of nuts on kungfuonline.



Did you ask Master Su about combat training or any of his students fighting

Count, I been living in New York most of my life, I know about and vist every internal martial art teacher that is said to have skill.

I vist Dr. Su kung fu class many times, I know what he teach. And I know people that use to be his students, that now move on to bigger and better things.

Anyway The times I vist him , all his students do his forms and a few martial art applications. No sparring at all. They practice Yin style Ba Gua Zhang, that looks like wushu Ba Gua Zhang not Yin Style. Most of the time there be this little short white guy teaching Dr. Su kung fu class for him, and looking at him teach I knew he was a jack of many styles, and master of none.

The bottom line is Dr Su class teach mostly many different kinds of Chinese martial art methods, if forms is what a person is looking for then I say he is the man, but for fighting I think not. Not that I'm saying the man can't teach other people how to fight, all I'm saying is the many times I vist the man class I never seen them doing any real combat training. :o

[count]

That's why I respect your opinions. Because they come from first hand, personal experience, and not from things you have read or heard on the internet.

I know from my own personal experience about Su Yu Chang's fighting ability and his reputation as a fighter and also some of his students successes. One of his students actually holds 6 consecutive world titles in 2 weight divisions fighting in Bangkok World Championships, using his Baji and Praying Mantis against Muay Thai fighters. There must be some combat training going on there. My own teacher was a student of Su Yu Chang's before Su introduced him to Grand Master Liu. Not only is his fighting record pretty solid, but he is a great teacher too. Of course, he had other teachers and much fighting before and after Master Su. We know from history about Su Yu Chang's teachers and their ability to use martial arts in real life.

On the other hand, Master Su is a notorious forms collector. Wushu-fied forms I doubt but that's another issue. All I can say is, if you are looking for traditional Chinese martial arts, his is a rich history and as a Doctor, he has an in-depth grasp of internal as well.

In my experience in traditional schools, training that takes place over 20 years or more, will sometimes be forms and exercise and sometimes combat and fighting and sometimes technique and self defense and on and on. Alot depends on the students and where they are at. What they are learning at the time and what they want to do with their martial arts. Without getting to know a teacher over a long period of regular training, it's impossible to say what the teacher knows.

LOL!!! if the guy posting as Master Wang is an imposter. The info I got about that guy came from his website. Same as the link you posted. Someone should let him know about the poster in these forums using his name.

[Spirit Writer]

Something worth mentioning:

Who the hell are you? That is exactly what many skilled martial artist think when someone walks in the door. And, more preciesely, think of it this way BT, a black man comes into their place, what should they do (now know this is not my though, just what I have often observed) show you there treasure?

O, here is some guy off the street, let's stop our two man powerdrills, break the line and let me demonstrate my best stuff to this no body.

Some of the teacher's I've learned from PURPOSELY changed forms during demos incase soemone had an eye out or was filming. Maybe that's being paranoid, but that is the case nonetheless.

Others have purposely shown rudamentary skills to blacks, or "unfavaorable" types to turn them away. Again, not say this is correct behavior, but I have seen it.

Ask BIll Gates to empty his pockets, you find nothing and go away laughing at his broke a$$ in ignorance. Yet he can buy you over a billion times with his unlimited credit card.

This is not directed at anyone, but I always read people judging others by their videos and what they have seen or heard. These men's skills are great, they achieved exactly what they wnated when you bought the video. Who gives out good stuff just like that?

[Spirit Writer]

PS

Also worth a mention. Those who know, don't seak. There's nothing more to see.

They also don't judge, for in their judgements they judge themselves (there's a little Marley mixed with the Lau Zu)

[Spirit Writer]

I knew my "empty words" would be filled with prejudgements and forthcoming words would be necessary.

First, from what BT says, seems like he has had no problem finding good teachers. Second, I myself have had teachers who except anyone who seems "alright".

My point is this, teachers will often time be careful of what they show. And, if for a moment you think outward apperances doesn't play a role in people's prejudgement's well ...

So, I'm saying, SOMETIMES, if you're not so impressed with what you have seen, it could mean: a) the person is simply not impressive in and of itself, or b) they are holding back because they feel you are either b-1) from a nother school and just checking it out, b-2) maybe a little full of yourself so go to hell, or b-3) if you want to see what I really have be wise enough to hang around and see for yourself after class.

Or, there is always the possibility that one could miss something shown plain as day because they are so ready to see how bad someone is, they miss something of value.

I for one agree with most of what BT says pretty much all of the time, and race is never an issue with me, unless your an Arab now carrying a funny looking package and look nervous (survival instinct), my point is, yes, there is a lot of bad out there. But also people tend to live up to expectations. And, if one has reached a point where they can find fault in everyone's technique, one has to ask why bother continuing to look.

Sorry you feel I have slandered a master I do not no, nor mentioned. Kind of proves my point of expectations.

[blacktaoist]

Raf,

my opinion, is just my opinion, I'm not saying Mr. Su is not a good teacher.

But I'm going to be real with my viewpoint about the Man, no matter if people like what I said or not. I'm just telling the truth of my own experience of my many visits to his kung fu class in downtown Manhattan in the 90's. And you are right he don't have a school, he had a room that he rent to teach in at 440. Now he teach somewhere downtown Manhattan near China town in the same place as one of Park's so called top students, that is said to be able to hit a human being 8 times within a sec, something like that.


Anyway I don't need you and count to give me a Dr. Su Martial art Biography of the man, I met the man and even read about the man and some of his students fighting reputation. But like I said I never met any of these fighting students of Mr. Su, and the Students that I did met of his in New York was not fighters, but form players of different chinese martial art that Su taught them.

So if Mr. Su have students kicking ass around the world thats good, But in New York I think not.


Now, whether he will teach bagua and its usage is another question. (http://Now, whether he will teach bagua and its usage is another question.)

The Ba Gua Zhang I saw his Students practicing look like WuShu Ba Gua Zhang. I know Yin Style Ba Gua Zhang when I see it. If Mr. Su Know Yin Style, then I know he not teaching it. Dr. Su main thing is praying mantis and Baji in my opinion. Not Ba Gua Zhang.

Like I said I'm no new jack to the martial art game, I know mad people in the arts. And I know many people that use to train with Mr. Su in the 90's. Many of these individuals told me themself that Mr. Su main $hit is mantis and Baji and when I visit his kung fu class that was what most of his students paying him money for, to learn praying mantis and Baji forms.

There was only a few people in his Hsing Yi and Ba Gua Zhang class. How I find about about Mr. Su in the first place was from maoshan, back in the 90's, me and him use to vist every Ba Gua Zhang teacher that we hear about said to have some kind of martial art skill in N.Y.C. And if they was Chinese their be the first on our visit list.

Mr. Su was going to be one of the teachers I was going to studie Ba Gua Zhang from, but after a few visits to his Ba Gua Zhang class, I didn't see anything practical about his Ba Gua Zhang he was teaching.

My frist Ba Gua Zhang teacher was Sifu Rudy Curry Jr. And he taught Ba Gua Zhang as a combat art, so I knew what to look for before I even visit Mr. Su Ba Gua class, and Su was not teaching Ba Gua as a fighting art, his class was all endless Ba Gua forms with no freestyle fighting, just a few martial art applications. So I went and learn from my first Ba Gua teacher Sifu rudy, Ba Gua master B. P. Chen, and later met Chen Xiaoping. These two teachers was teaching Ba Gua Zhang as a combat method not a Ba Gua style of solo dances, and later two man dance applications.



He does have at least 3 schools in Japan and a number
in South America and Spain.

Mr. Su can Have a 100 schools, but the fact and truth is he not teaching combat in the New York where I'm at. Or have I seen any of his New York students fight in any fighting event in New York. and I have be going to Kung fu and Karate tournaments for years in New York, I never saw one student of Su fight in any fighting event ever hold in New York. He only have one top U.S.A. student that I know about, this little white Guy that all he do is forms. I forget this guy name, but I know hes on Su web site. And I know for a fact he can't fight for $hit, but he can perform a forms well....LOL



he does teach applications. At the last Hall of Fame Tournament, he did a seminar on the Pimen two man praying mantis fighting).

this is what I said in my post reply to count:

Anyway The times I vist him , all his students do his forms and a few martial art applications. No sparring at all.

So I never said the man don't teach aplications, I just don't see Mr. Su way of teaching of Ba Gua Zhang combat practical for me. Anyone can learn reheared martial art application, and within in some time of training them, a person will look good at applying the techniques. Why?

Because a person knows what's coming at them and they have the timing down of the other person their doing the technique with, each person knows the other rhythm. So in the end martial art application is still a dances. Two man dances not real combat training.

All my Ba Gua Zhang teachers said to me freestyle fighting is the best way to learn how to utilize any from of martial arts, and I find this to be true. And at the time Mr. Su was not teaching that way when I was coming around to vist him.

So I stand by my opinion about his ways of teaching. No disrespect in any way to the man. But I'm going to get it real always.

BlackTaoist
(Lao Qiang)

[count]

I was't going to say anything about the man in the first place. In fact I just posted his name with a link. Let the people make up their own minds. The man didn't even ask about any specific style. Only TMA.

Later when we got to speaking editorially, I gave out information. I qualified what I said as being from my own personal experience. As was yours, Blacktaoist. No debate here. I just wanted to point out that in "Traditional Schools", especially ones that have locations around the world and 100's of students at any given time, there are times when a class can be full of people who want to learn to fight in competitions and other times when the class is full of people who just want to learn to beat 'the only true enemy'.

Students come and go. Things change. A teacher usually teaches to a market. You know the ones who live uptown are looking for something different than the ones that live downtown. It's simple economics. Give the people what they want.

Only the ones that stick it out for a long time get it all. Anyway, I agree with you that his mantis is his longsuit. And for the record, I've seen Master Su hit a man more than 8 times in a second.:)

[blacktaoist]

Ok count you make a good points , one that I can even debate with you about.

Ok you may have seen Mr. Su hit a opponent 8 times in a sec, but one of park's people I don't think so.:D

[count]

LOL!:D

[MonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by blacktaoist
Ok I just look at the link you give of Wang on kungFuonline. I can tell you first hand that is not Wang posting. . :o

Respectfully,

He has someone translate his emails and post for him.

Also, I asked in class, he confirmed knowing about my posts here.



And, the very best of luck with the tournie at F.D. in Jersey, may it become a tradition.

[blacktaoist]

Raf,

Master B. P. Chan studied Ba Gua Zhang with Lui Hing-Chow. Master Chan was the only person in New York teaching the Cheng Yu Lung Dragon form of Ba Gua Zhang. Dr. Su didn't teach that form of Ba Gua Zhang. At the time I mat Dr. Su He told me he teach Yin Ba Gua Zhang not Dragon Ba Gua Zhang.

Also the Ba Gua form he was teaching was not the same form Master B.P. Chan was teaching.

As for post training, there are many methods and many ways to practice on the post. To tell you the truth the Ba Gua post training can be a whole training method by it self.

I myself train mostly on trees. This was the first method I was taught by my Yin teacher Chen Xiaoping, I later move on to iron post that my sifu have in his backyard in queens. Most Ba Gua practitioners use wood, my sifu use 9 iron post that are about seven or eight foot iron post that are in a circle.

I would love to have take a picture of these iron post and put the photos up on my web site , but my sifu not having it. We do many Ba Gua Auxiliary training on these iron post, and if you are coming to maoshan Ba Gua tournament I can show you in a freestyle way, first hand the power and skill I develop from this kind of training I learned from my Yin style teacher.

Many people talk about this kind of training, but few put the time in, doing this kind of Ba Gua hardcode training for real. if a person is doing this kind of post training, as soon as you crosshands with another Ba Gua or martial artist you know if they have true power and martial skill. Most people today do the easy $hit forms and drills and maybe some chi Kung and call it a day.

But if they met some one that have done real post training and other Ba Gua zhang martial auxilliary training, and they have not, then when they crosshands with that person, they going to be very easy to deal with and beat.

Post training is just level one, there are higher levels of Ba Gua Zhang martial training then post methods. But I think you know that already.

[count]

Because you clarified RAF's question, I think. Liu Hing Chow does sound like Liu Yun Chaio. And I am not starting a debate here because we have already had this discussion. We call our bagua, Yin Style because Grandmaster Liu's teacher learned his bagua from Yin Fu. But we do say it is Dragon style bagua. Nothing to do with palms mind you. It's Dragon energy in the body.

And a question??? Will you be doing any kind of workshops during Bens tournament. I doubt RAF can make it there because the Wu Tang Annual is the following weekend in Ohio, but I'm planning to come. Sorry Bob, I don't think we can make it this year, but we'll shoot for next.

Excellent post BTW.

[blacktaoist]

Because you clarified RAF's question, I think.

I know I clarified Raf's question, But to tell you the truth I don't have to clarifiend anything, I train under master B.P.Chan, you have not. I know What style of Ba Gua Zhang the man taught, and its no where near what you guys are doing. But one thing I know for such Master B.P. Chan taught Cheng Yu Lung dragon form every internal martial artist in New york that vist and had train under the man knows that.

As for Master B. P. chan Ba Gua Zhang,any long time student that train under him will tell you, master B.P. Chan never talk much about his martial arts teachers, And no one care about his Ba Gua lineage, all we knew was we were learning from a very high level internal Master that could put a mother ****er on they ass very easy, even up to his last days.

Tell you the truth, I can careless about what Ba Gua style a person claim to practice, what matters to me if a person can utilize their Ba Gua Zhang in a combat situation. And most of the time many Ba Gua practitioners today can't. Many people claim they are practicing Yin Style, but when they perform they movements have no characteristics of Yin Style, but they think they are doing yin style what a joke.



But we do say it is Dragon style bagua. Nothing to do with palms mind you. It's Dragon energy in the body.

count do I look like a New jack to Ba Gua to you. You don't have to mind me about anything when it comes to Ba Gua Zhang . Aways my lYin style teach would tell me, it don't matter if its the palms or energy in the body, You better have develop your enery to a martial level and you better know how to utilize both your plams in offensive and defensive combat situations.

The real objective of Yin Style ba Gua Zhang is to be first in a fight and when training the forms you must have the killer mindset, utilize Yang offensive movements. Dragon energy Srroy I don't think so. Not in real Yin style Ba Gua Zhang, maybe you are talking about Cheng style Ba Gua Zhang or my boy Sun Lu Tang:o

[count]

Blacktaoist,
No one questioned your background and I sure never called you a new jack anything. I only said you answered the question. I even said quite well as you can see. What you say about B.P. Chan is the same I have heard from others who knew him. I am sorry I never had the opportunity to meet the man myself. I only asked if you plan a workshop at the New York tournament???

Thanks RAF,

We had a great time last year at the tournament and you can count on us coming again next year. We just thought it was important to go to the "first ever", "all baguazhang" tournament in New York. Very true about the "mess" when you talk about flights, lodging, missed work, family and on and on. Your lucky that your wife has family in China to stay with.

[blacktaoist]

Raf,
I never think this was a set up , and for one I can't be set up. I know who I train under.

Kenneth colen didn't even studied that long with Master B.P. Chan. there are lots of people that claim to have studied with master B.P. Chan many of them in fact have only train with the man for a short time, all iI will say is I wouldn't just go by what kenneth colen writes.

Here is a link to some information about Master B.P. Chan on my web Site. http://www.blacktaoist.com/Master%20B%20P%20chan.html (http://http://www.blacktaoist.com/Master%20B%20P%20chan.html)

Now if you or anybody think, what I wrote is not true. All you have to do is contact Master William C.C. Chen.

I know for a fact Master B.P.Chan learn his internal arts in Fukien China. This is the first time I ever hear about him learning in the Phillippines.

Also you can contact Sifu Rudy Curry Jr, who train under Master B.P. Chan for about 17 years. Here is his e-mail: ramsis75@hotmail.com

Count, I will not be doing any workshop at maoshons event.

[count]

Please:)

[maoshan]

Greetings Count,

I can Answer that for you.

Being that this is the first one, We're taking it slow.
But watch next year. after all, it's all about BaGua.

And also to add to the BP Chan topic.

B.P. Chan is not a part of the Yin Lineage. All the years that I knew him he never taught anything else but Dragon.

He learned in south China, not the phillipines. That makes no sense.

Maoshan

[count]

:D

[HongQuan]

From what I've read, heard and was told, Gong Baotien's Bagua is not refered to as "Dragon Bagua." It's usually called "Monkey Bagua" because Gong was small and used quick footwork and hand movements, not the big sweeping and coiling movements commonly associated with a Dragon.

I'm not sure, so correct me if I am wrong BT and other Yin style practioners, but I think in general "Dragon" techniques are more of a characteristic of Cheng style than Yin style. I think this has to do with the fact that there is less coiling...

Just my idea.

[blacktaoist]

HongQuan,

I Agree with most of your post, I myself don't like Gong Bao tien's Ba Gua Zhang method. I have a few tapes of this Ba Gua Zhang style being perform, giving to me from a friend on KFO, I even know a Chinese teacher in N.J. that teach this method to a few students. I sometimes visit him just to see how he is doing.

From what he told me Gong Bao Tien is said to have learned from Yin Fu and was known as Monkey Kung" and Gong Bao specialty was quick change & fast nimble footwork in combat.

Anyway from my own observation of looking at Gong Bao Tien practitioners perform their Ba Gua Zhang form sets, I form my opinion base on my own living encountering experience with the few Yin style teachers I have learned from and the few Cheng style teachers I learned from, to make my veiwpoint, that is in my opinion Gong Bao Tien style looks like some form of Cheng style to me.

I just don't see the Yin style body Mechanic characteristics in the Gong Bao Tien Ba Gua Zhang method. Also I don't see any Lohan influence in their Ba Gua movemests (power) or issue jing in a fiery explosion with their body movements or snake palm.

What I see them do is practice their circle walking sets, like cheng style practitioners.


My Yin style teachers would tell me, the best why to tell if someone is doing Yin Style, is to just crosshands with them, if the person you crosshands with can't occupy your territory with surprising speed- adroitly done effectually with little to no effect. then thats Yin Style.

So Hong Quan Im in arreement with your idea.

[count]

Who is the teacher in New Jersey of Gong Bao Tien's lineage. I don't know that area that well but that would be pretty close to "New York Traditional Martial Arts". I know two teachers that might fit that profile.

So you think Gong's style reminds you of Cheng style? But not having dragon characteristics? The stories we hear about Gong are that he was so fast he would not just "occupy your territory", but would be hiding behind you.

[count]

Welcome to the forum Hong Qaun. What style of bagua do you know?

[looking_up]

RAF,

Could you please tell me how I can see the clip you are referring to?

Thanks,
LU

[count]

Lion, Bear, Snake, Dragon, Pheonix, Hawk, Unicorn and Monkey. Many men, many interpratations of the same style. Bagua! BTW RAF, Snake and Dragon are so similiar in that wavy motion of movement. Kun, Tsuang, Cheng, Guo may be 1000 snakes to you but we do them in so many patterns and directions. I can understand why you would say snake but next time your really into it, feel your body. Some styles say feet like a snake, body like a dragon eyes gaze like a monkey. It's Bagua! I don't know why Gong Bao Tien's style of bagua reminds some of you of Cheng style. Gong was deep but his teacher was Yin Fu. Maybe it came to him in some opium induced revelation. Maybe he was actually influenced by others around him at the time. Same is true today. Different teachers, different styles. I don't think any of us is pure. All you guys that live like Tung, raise your hand. I know you can't raise your DlCKS. I know, I am rambling. None of this has anything to do with TMA in New York.

looking_up, I am sorry, my site is down for a while since I have been moving it and re-designing it. I could post it for download. It's a demo which doesn't show anything really. How's you computer savy? Can you deal with quicktime?

[looking_up]

"This is clearly seen on the clipping of Jason Tsou's performance of the 64 internal palms provided by Count on his website. "

I Was thinking of this clip, but perhaps it is down now.

No matter.

As always, thanks .

LU

[looking_up]

Didn't see Count's reply.

I have serviceable computer gonfu. Let me know where to go.

Gratitude -> Count

LU

[blacktaoist]

Who is the teacher in New Jersey of Gong Bao Tien's lineage. I don't know that area that well but that would be pretty close to "New York Traditional Martial Arts". I know two teachers that might fit that profile.

The teacher I know in New Jersey, You don't know, because for one he is not renowned and two he keeps very low Key, He is very good friends with my Yin style teacher.

Count,Now like I told you off line and I tell you on KFO, the mehod you are practicing in my opinion is not Yin Style Ba Gua Zhang. I seen your teacher perform on tape, that a friend on KFO sent me, and that little movie clip you use to have on your web site. I have seen many other Yin Style Ba gua Zhang techers perform in real life. And what your teacher was doing don't look anything near what the Yin Style teachers I met was doing.
Now if your doing Yin Style, then in my opinion, it is Yin Style variation I never come a cross.
I even talk to a Yin Style expert by e-mail from the same Gong Bao Tien's lineage as you guys that lives in Taiwan. And I ask him about you guys Ba Gua Zhang, Because I also have a tape of Raf teacher too.

His opinion was the same as mys. He said a lot, But I'll leave it at that. He even sent me 4 free video's of of him performing his Gong Bao Tien's Ba Gua forms, and looking at his sets I can see you guys Gong Bao Tien's Ba Gua forms look nothing close to his.

The bottom line is I don't care if you are doing Yin Style, or how you say, COUNT STYLE" I just don't like you guys Ba Gua method, Because it looks like some form of cheng Ba Gua Zhang.


Lion, Bear, Snake, Dragon, Pheonix, Hawk, Unicorn and Monkey. Many men, many interpratations of the same style. Bagua! BTW RAF, Snake and Dragon are so similiar in that wavy motion of movement. Kun, Tsuang, Cheng, Guo may be 1000 snakes to you but we do them in so many patterns and directions. I can understand why you would say snake but next time your really into it, feel your body. Some styles say feet like a snake, body like a dragon eyes gaze like a monkey.

Count, some time you make me LOL :D with your animal theory post reply. Ok lets come back down to earth my good friend I hope, back to the physical dimension.

Because all the above $hit you just post is just Ba Gua Myth theory, that in my opinion is Bull$hit and have nothing to do with real fighting.

Man it time to get real with your training. Do you think training that kind of therory is going to help your in the REAL WORLD OF COMBAT" Man I use to be just like you, learning and following theses Ba Gua animal theories, in the end I form my own opinion that animal theories is all Bull$hit.

Now if you are going to claim to practice Yin Style Ba Gua Zhang. Then You should know that Yin Style therory and Applications is straightforward and practical. There is no talk of all this animal theories $hit.



Lets get real man, feet like a snake, body like a dragon eyes gaze like a monkey.

Man it time to get real with your training. Do you think training that kind of therory is going to help your in the REAL WORLD OF COMBAT" Man I use to be just like you, learning and following theses Ba Gua animal theories, in the end I form my own opinion that animal theories is all Bull$hit.

Now if you are going to claim to practice Yin Style Ba Gua Zhang. Then You should know that Yin Style therory and Applications is straightforward and practical. There is no talk of all this animal theories $hit.

Now if you are going to claim to practice Yin Style Ba Gua Zhang. Then You should know that Yin Style therory and Applications is straightforward and practical. There is no talk of all this animal theories $hit. The few Yin Style teachers I learned from, never taught me, telling me feet like a snake, body like a dragon eyes gaze like a monkey. Even When learning Ba Gua Zhang forms I was taught to move my body with the right body mechanics and characteristic that is unique to most Yin style Ba Gua systems.

And each movement in Yin style forms have a great deal of lohan shaolin influence in their circle and straight line combat forms, I don't see any lohan shaolin characteristics in you guys form at all.

Even Tomasz Yin Style Teacher who I met in Beijing China, Ba Gua Zhang form had lohan shaolin characteristics in their Ba Gua Zhang forms, and their Yin Style also. You guys are the only Ba Gua that I have seen, don't have any lohan characteristics inyour forms, but more of Cheng movements with in you guys forms, even you guys Ba Gua postures look like cheng style, I never in my life seen Yin Style practitioners move the way you guys teachers move.

Every Yin Style teacher I ever met performing their Yin Ba Gua forms, never would you see their body movements swimming continuous like a fish swimming in water. And thats the kind of movement I seen you guys teacher perform on tape. It didn't look like Yin Style to me, and I a lot of footage of Ba Gua Zhang, that my teach give to me, and I train under two Yin teachers so I know what Yin Style is all about. Now if you guys are doing Yin Style then it must be one hell of a exclusive and very unique style.

Now count, don't take my statements the wrong way, The same go for you RAF. But I'm going to be real with you, just like I 'm real with everybody on KFO.

Now if you Guys Ba Gua is Yin Style, fine. But from what I was taught from my teachers and the many tapes That I've seen of Ba Gua Zhang, I just don't see the Yin style characteristics in you guys form at all.


I have never heard Gong Bao Tian martial, as transmitted to Liu Yun Qiao, referred to as monkey.

Gong Bao Tian was also renowned by the name, Kung Pao T'ien. It was said that because he was very clever, and becuse his body was was long and thin, Gong Bao Tian movements were nimble , used guick changes in all his actions, that he become known as Monkey Kung.

in a few Ba Gua books that my classmate maoshan have, Gong Bao Tian Ba Gua skill is referred as Monkey Kung. As a matter of fact in Sifu Jerry Alan Johnson Ba Gua Book: Classical Pa Kua Chang,-fighting systems and weapons, They talk about gong Bao Tian Ba Gua Zhang skill also as monkey Kung.

Anyway I'm at my job, So I'm out for Now, I have not time to argue over What is Yin Style and what is not, I know the true facts, so for me its nothing to debate or discuss.

Yo Maoshan I know you are going to hit this one, have fun .';)

SEEK THE TRUTH ALWAYS, BUT THE METHOD MUST BE PRACTICAL''

[count]

Blacktaoist,

Actually I can think of 4 people I consider higher level guys that do Gong's style in NJ. One of them teaches publically two others just keep a very low profile. The fourth is the gentleman RAF mentioned in his post. He's very knowledgeable too but I don't know if he is teaching or not. Come on man, share. Since I will be out there next month could you at least tell me if they'll be at Maoshans tournament.

Sifu Jerry Allan Johnson, huh??? Have you seen his videos? LOL, it would surprise me to hear that's what you consider Gong's style.

If I don't talk to you before, Happy Birthday. Now don't read the rest of this post cause it will probably sicken you with philosophy bull$hit.:D

PS if you didn't see my three previous posts to you about a workshop...PLEASE!

RAF

Maoshans tournament will be the first time that I know of where all the participants will bring bagua together for the public (in this country) and show their best stuff in the spirit of sharing what was once secret. How can you judge such an event? Every school has different forms. Different flavors. Even within the same lineage or even the same school you see different expressions of the same forms. Sometimes it can appear unrecognizable as the same. But than, the nature of bagua is change. Students of bagua should be encouraged to change the forms once they are learned. But one thing remains constant. Energy!!! These principles don't come from the forms. They come from the basics. They are at the core of everything else that follows. But how do you see the core through the apple? Fighting!!! Apple-ication!!! But the apple is just the fruit of the tree. Not the root.

Stuff like Kun (Rolling), Tsuang (twisting/turning/drilling), Cheng (thrusting), Gou (wrapping) are the first thing beginners learn in our system. And standing. Once the root has sprouted, circle walking. Shao Kei Men (open the small gate) form. 8 mother palms form. These are some of the basics that are seen throughout. But at one time these basics were kept in secret and what was demonstrated for the public was very different. Sure it had the flavor of the apple, but the root remained hidden. If you touched hands it could be felt, but the method of cultivation was the secret of the farmer.

If you look at another branch of Gong Bao Tiens bagua, planted in Taiwan, you can see the same forms as we do from another perspective. In He Jing Han's (from Gong Bao Zhai-Gong Bao Tien) 8 mother palms form, he does what he calls the 4 changing movements during each change. It is Shao Kei Men. Seems to me Grandmaster Liu pulled these movements out to focus on the basics of opening and closing. Another teacher from Gong Bao Tien's lineage, Gong Zhong Xiang (from Wang Zhuang Fei-Gong Bao Tien) has gone even further, taking each animal and creating it's own system, ala Xei Pei Qi. The forms are different, but the core is the same. Rising, falling, drilling, wrapping, lifting, pressing.........So you can see, as water flows downstream and is divided by rocks and falls, it changes shape, but it remains water. At the top of the mountain it can be frozen at the source and at the end of the stream where it empties into the ocean it is the same in different form.

RAF, you are correct about the movements after number 8 in Jason's demonstration of 64 palms. That is our signature. It's not actually part of the 64 palms form. But as I think back on that demonstration, I seem to remember he did a couple lines from A side and a couple lines from B side. It was purely improvised. Much of the moment was blurred together and smooth. Most of the substance remained hidden. But again, that is the nature of bagua. Change, continuous change.

looking_up,
I sent you a link to download the movie of 64 Internal Palms form.

[blacktaoist]

Raf and Count, I don't want to fight about this Bull$hit, if you happy in what you doing, thats all that matters.




I know I can be hardcore with my post replys, but hey, thats just how I'm living. For me Ba Gua Zhang is my love, and I take this art for real, unlike some others.


But I going to change all that $hit, thats my word.

By the way count, I was not talking about Sifu Jerry Allan Johnson doing a form, I was just telling Raf about the information about Gong Bao Tian in his book.

[count]

RAF,
If there is anyone more opinionated than the Blacktaoist, it's Tomasz. But I get some good info from those guys. I'll send you some pics of Tomasz and his teacher. You can look him up when you go to Beijing. I heard Blacktaoist and his crew met up with them on their trip.;)

[blacktaoist]

Me being opinionated come's from my experience of learning Cheng and Yin Style.

When I see these styles in action I know what to look for.

So I feel why should I argue about Yin style, a system I know much about.

So I let you Guys think what you want to think.

[count]

No insult intended, to you BT.

[blacktaoist]

Ok count.

Raf, I hope when you go to Beijing China in may you met up with Tomasz, you can learn alot from his Yin Style teacher:D......LOL

Back to the real side Raf.....

To bad you was not going to bejing in july of 2003 because thats when I'll be back to train. And Me and you could have hook up, as A matter of fact I still can hook you up to met someone, if you are going in may.

Good luck in finding, real Ba gua zhang in china, because in my experience there is not much out there. But you have people living out there talking about there are many Ba Gua Zhang masters in Beijing, when in fact there are few, and they are not easy to find.

What you will find is most just practice forms, few can utilize Ba gua Zhang in a fight.


If you want to met my Yin Style sifu in Beijing Xu Shi Xi, let me know, and I'll e-mail one of my Ba Gua brothers that live in Beijing to hook you up to met him.

[blacktaoist]

(judgements of Liu (not by you but by others) creates a problem since he is dead and can't respond to them).

I myself only post Facts or truth conforming to Ba Gua Zhang, and when I post my statement of opinion, people up here seem to get very upset.

I know one thing...Liu Yun Chiao
didn't learn with Gong officially. And what he did learn was for maybe 2 years. That's about it. That post training you talk about must be from
another style of Ba Gua Zhang training methods, because I don't know of any other Gong style that has it.

Be talking to you.

[count]

Originally posted by blacktaoist

I know one thing...Liu Yun Chiao
didn't learn with Gong officially. And what he did learn was for maybe 2 years. That's about it.


Hey, I thought you were through. You know, maybe it was 2 years, maybe three, at least that's what my teacher tells us. Still, privately one on one for 8 hours a day must stand for something. Especially for someone as reputable and masterful as Liu already was. What's the point? Official recognition? I have a half a dozen published articles where Gong's family give Liu recognition. But I think if you understand what RAF elucidated in his post, it won't be an issue any longer. I know it's not one for me.

LOL wujidude.

[RAF]

My apologies to you Blacktaoist and the readers in general for I am going to remove my posts and exit from this particular discussion. This gives everyone the option of starting over with a clean bill of health.

I promised myself that if this type of discussion happened again that I would not be part of it. It reflects very poorly upon my teacher and this is definitely not his way or Liu's way of handling things.

This isn't about anything written by others and only about what my writing reflects--its a poor reflection of what I learned as a formal student in the Wu Tan(g) system.

Sorry Count, I promised not to withdrawal but I don't like how I have responded. Its tiring and far too defensive.

I will be in contact with you BT to take you up on your most gracious offer when I travel to Beijing.

[count]

I for one understand. But I think your posts are constuctive and interesting. Don't delete!

[RAF]

Sorry Count, its done.

I just didn't like what I wrote.

[count]

Now he'll never get what I meant. Oh well, I'm out of this one too.:cool:

[blacktaoist]

wujidude,

I don't know Hong Qaun that well, But I know his Ba Gua teacher, the man knows a lot of Real information about Gong Bao Tian style of Ba Gua Zhang. Hong Qaun teacher is the real Deal in my book. I would train with Hong Qaun teacher, But right now I don't have time.


I met Tomasz teacher for just a visit. I don't want to say anything about his teacher. So I think you should go to Beijing and see his teacher in action yourself, that way you can form your opinion about Tomasz Yin style teacher martial skill level.


For now on I'm going to keep my opinion to myself, and stop posting on KFO because I'm not getting any knowledge exchange from anybody up here anyway.

Its a big waste of my time. From what I see up here, people want to live in a big fantasy world of internal martial arts and so -called high level internal masters.


Raf,

I don't read much about your Style lineage, But I know a few people that practice Gong Bao Tian style. So I get my information from them.

This have not to do with the skills of your teachers or lineage. Why do you guys get so upset over someone opinion. I'm no expert on Yin Style Ba Gua Zhang, I just told you my opinion on what I don't see in you guys Ba Gua Zhang method, thats all.

For one I can careless about form. What matters is can you utilize the Ba Gua form you are practicing in real combat. Your martial art brother Count post a statement saying:

But we do say it is dragon style Bagua. Nothing to do with palms mind you. Its dragon energy in the body.

I have to say he is dead wrong in my opinion.

First of all, from the first day a person learn Ba Gua Zhang they are learning about dragon energy in the body, what the hell you think the circle walk is all about.

You Guys sometimes make me ...LOL

The palms do have a lot to do with Ba Gua Zhang, so I don;'t see how you think they don't. unless you practice your palms with no energy, then I can see why you would say something like that.

In Ba Gua Zhang a practitioner must first master the techniques of, rise(Ch'i), Drill(Tsuan) Fall (Lo) overturn (fan) if you don't master these few techniques. Then in my opinion you don't know Ba Gua Zhang, you just know the outer form and book philosophy.

Anyway this is my last post, up here, I let you professional Ba Gua master teach up here for now. My knowledge is not up to you guys level.

Hong Qaun, I like to hook up with you this week, you seem cool, You have to be I know your teacher....LOL if you are free this sunday like me know. Thanks for the e-mail I learned a lot.

peace I'm out.

[Dachengdao]

To Black Taoist and concerned others:
I am not an imposter, my English is getting better thanks to going to classes 20 hours per week and of course living with my American girlfriend who helps me with reading and writing these forums.
Novell, I sent you an EMail wishing you a safe trip abroad and you never answered. Maybe you thought it was from a fake Wang.
Anyway, I'll send you a new EMail and youll see it's really me.:)
Wang Rengang, the Real Deal

[blacktaoist]

I'm out of town what now, you know me wang, I'm always on the move. I'll hit you on your e-mail and let you know where I'm at.

P.S. I got your e-mail before I left for Beijing China, and I reply back. Maybe you didn't get my E-mail. Anyway I hit you on your e-mail tonight. I have a lot of things to tell you.

Peace