Does your teacher have to be able to kick your butt to be your teacher? [Archive]

illusionfist

08-14-2002, 04:54 PM

I say yes, but it has a condition.

Your sifu should have a decent amount of fighting experience. If not, how can he or she impart fighting knowledge to you without experience to base it from? Its become too common nowadays to have sifus teaching that haven't a lick of fighting experience.

Eventually at one point though, if your sifu has done their job, your skill will surpass theirs. This is where their "gung fu" becomes more important than their fighting experience.

A friend of my sifu's once told him, "i can defeat my teacher in a fight, but my gung fu will never be as good as his..." This is along the same lines.

Peace

Choke

08-14-2002, 05:14 PM

I said yes for the same reason that illusionfist did. Fight experience (be it on or off the street) is important for the teacher to have. Also if he/she has all the working knowledge of a system and can not beat a student using that system what does that say about the system or more importantly their knowledge and training in it?

Another thing, I would not compare training in a traditional martial art to training to fight in a boxing ring. They are athletes and are trained like such. Just my point of view though, yours may be different and that is cool.

:)

African Tiger

08-14-2002, 05:28 PM

Unless your teacher is one of the following:

Dustin "screech" Diamond from Saved by the Bell - You'd die laughing before you'd learn anything.

Any Sifu/Sensei/Self-appointed Deity from Temple Kung Fu - They can only beat up people's wallets.

Anyone who has ever accidentally walked into any of the Shaolin Do schools - Those "karotty gees" they wear get in the way of their thinking.

Paulie Zink - Do I REALLY NEED to explain this one?

joedoe

08-14-2002, 05:54 PM

If a student is never able to beat the teacher, then how will the art grow? That would mean that with each successive generation the art becomes less - it loses something each time a master dies.

I do not believe this to be the case. A student should be able to beat the teacher, and there are many reasons for this - the teacher may be too old, the student is simply in better condition, the student has better fight instincts etc. However, the teacher has the advantage of knowledge and experience, and that it why they are the teacher.

Arhat of Fury

08-14-2002, 05:58 PM

soemeone has been watching too much shaolin vs. lama

joedoe

08-14-2002, 06:21 PM

Who me? Never seen it.

fa_jing

08-14-2002, 07:46 PM

Your teacher needs to be able to kick other teacher's butts that are his own age. :D Or have been a great fighter for a fairly long period of time. Or be a person with great knowledge and experience.

If he can't beat you himself, than he should have another student that can beat you up so you can learn something. That student preferably would have had his own butt kicked by the teacher at some point.:p

ArrowFists

08-15-2002, 02:05 AM

I voted "yes".

If you're going to a Martial Art school to learn how to fight and defend yourself, then yes, your teacher should be able to kick your butt. If my teacher can't beat me in fighting, then I have nothing to learn from him.

I'll go to church and the gym for spiritual,moral development and aerobics.

Former castleva

08-15-2002, 02:45 AM

Your teacher should be "one who has gone before"
He has a lot more experience in the art you´re studying (may it be sil lum or what ever)
Therefore,his technique is of higher level than yours,so he has something to teach to you that you don´t know.

iron man

08-15-2002, 02:53 AM

i say yes

With my martial art experience i find that with a really great sensei, seeing them spar or show how effect a certain self-defense move is with another instructor motivates me to become better everyday.

Shadow Dragon

08-15-2002, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by ArrowFists If you're going to a Martial Art school to learn how to fight and defend yourself, then yes,

I study MA to learn a skill and a style that is of interest to me.

Peace.

NPMantis

08-15-2002, 03:27 AM

Depends why you're studying that art - to be an efficient kung fu fighter or have beautiful forms. If it's forms it is not important, what is important is that your sifu is graceful and can bring out the best in you.

It is important to me that my Sifu can fight as I am studying it to be proficient in kung fu style fighting (in class at least - I am no thug!)

ArrowFists

08-15-2002, 03:42 AM

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon

I study MA to learn a skill and a style that is of interest to me.

Peace.

For what purpose? If its not fighting/self defense, then what you're doing is no different than what you can learn in a dance class.

Shadow Dragon

08-15-2002, 04:09 AM

Arrowfists.

WRONG.

Skills can be applied in many ways, unless you didn't know that.
SD is just ONE of those uses.

Programming is also a SKILL, but it's uses are limitless.

Peace.

crumble

08-15-2002, 08:02 AM

I voted yes.

If they are your teacher, yes. If they are your coach, no.

A coach just drills stuff you have already learned. He makes you work.

A teacher is imparting knowledge, so he has to have that knowledge. If it's fighting, then he needs to know fighting. The only way you can tell if he knows fighting is if he fights -- unless you can read minds.

Okay, there is a grey area. If the guy is old, he may not be able to kick your ass. But he better have an well-earned reputation as an ass kicker. No I'm not saying he needs to be a thug. It would be much better if he is a competitor, in the spirit of Merryprankster's well written note on competition. (Those thugs tend to make brutal teachers.)

-crumble

NPMantis

08-15-2002, 08:06 AM

crumble - I think that sums it up really, your distinction makes a lot of sense.

Doesn't everyone agree?

Royal Dragon

08-15-2002, 09:06 AM

It depends on his age.

A teacher in his 60's is way to far past his prime to beat a 30 year old who is in his prime, but his coaching can make that 30 year old a much better fighter tha he otherwise would have been.

I don't know ANY top level gymnastics coaches that can even qualify for a lower level event, but thier students can compete in the Natiaonal Championships and take medals. Ours just took 4th in Natiaonals in fact, and her coach can't even do a kartwheel anymore. But she is STILL one of the best coaches in the country, and so are the gymnasts she trains.

You'll never see an old Boxing coach last one round against his top level fighters, but without him, they wouldn't be top level fighters at all.

guohuen

08-15-2002, 09:26 AM

I'll say yes exept (there's allways exeptions) the conditions Royal Dragon mentioned. Really old or incapacitated by injury. Like RD said, the knowledge is still there. When I studied jiu jutsu and shotokan in '72,'73,'74, my sensei was 65, 66 and 67. He could still woop my tail with no problem. Had he been so old that he no longer could, I still would have learned from him as his knowledge was emmence.

KC Elbows

08-15-2002, 10:00 AM

It is dependant on the same conditions already put forward.

However, my dominatrix must be able to kick my butt. There's other criterion, but we won't go into that.:eek:

ArrowFists

08-15-2002, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon
Arrowfists.

WRONG.

Skills can be applied in many ways, unless you didn't know that.
SD is just ONE of those uses.

Programming is also a SKILL, but it's uses are limitless.

Peace.

I never said you couldn't apply these skills elsewhere, however the MAIN purpose of such skills is for SD/Fighting. Everything else is secondary. Thus, if you're not into the arts for SD/Fighting purposes, you could take up a dancing class for the same benefits you're getting out of your ancient MA.

norther practitioner

08-15-2002, 01:20 PM

No, look at like 90 year old taiji teachers....given the chance they'll throw you across the room, but hell, you could kick them in the head before they knew that you were in the room. But, they could teach much.

KC Elbows

08-15-2002, 01:57 PM

Arrow Fists,
Yes, SD is a major component of martial arts. Happy?:D

i.e., you seem to be overexerting yourself in attempting to make this topic a weak spot of TMA, yet the traditionalists are split down the middle on this topic, so by marginalizing the views of traditionalists, you are effectively making your own argument half wrong.

How many traditionalists need to say "Yes, I want a teacher who was a good fighter" before this is no longer an issue of traditional martial arts?

"I'll go to church and the gym for spiritual,moral development and aerobics."

This doesn't address the fact that a qualified fighter, for health reasons, might not fight anymore, but teach with the help of senior students(instructors, if you're more comfortable with that terminology, or better, coaches).
Apparently you are against this? Or did you just miss this concept in your rush to burn traditionalists at the stake?

Shadow Dragon

08-15-2002, 02:29 PM

Arrow Fists.

What my point is learn the Skill and don't focus on only 1 aspect like fighting or Health.

Personally, I feel that if you focus like that you are limiting yourself.

I see it often today with many MA, they read MA as Martial Arts , and the Martial, Fighting, Competition and Self Defense are the only things they see about MA.
Hence they will attack anybody with a viewpoint or motivation different to theirs.

Sometimes feels like they are kinda brainwashed into the "MARTIAL" side.

But than that might be how they were taught by their teachers.

IMHO, a good Teacher should be able to balance all sides of the Art and not over-emphasize a single aspect.

Peace.

Arhat of Fury

08-15-2002, 03:08 PM

Bottom line is that it depends at what you are focused on forms or fighting. Whichever the case, you sifu should have the experience and be known as a skilled person in that field.

Peace,

AOF

African Tiger

08-15-2002, 06:49 PM

Dude, I don't know about that. Ark Yuey Wong was still schooling people our age (I assume you are in your 30's like me) not too long before his death. Unless I am mistaken, he lived to be 82.

In fact, my GM Share K Lew is at least 84 and he still moves like a 20 year old. One can only dream of such physical prowess....or at least keep training so you can achieve such prowess!

Shadow Dragon

08-15-2002, 08:06 PM

Hmm.

So far the Poll is pretty evenly split.
But the NO's got a slight lead.

Wonder who voted for " I don't need a Teacher".

Peace.

P.S.: Come on Guys we need some more votes, too few people are voting.

Serpent

08-15-2002, 08:19 PM

That's because it's a dumb question. Could Mike Tyson's boxing coach beat him in a boxing ring? Of course not, but he can still teach him a lot about boxing.

A teacher doesn't have to be able to kick your butt, but he needs to know how it's done and preferably have done it at some point with someone, be that in comp, on the street, with his wife, whatever!