WOW Zen! what is this got to do with WCK? [Archive]

yuanfen

08-15-2002, 09:47 AM

On Chan, WCK etc---- Chinese culture has made differerent quite practical syntheses of quite varying pholosophies. So discussion of pure Chan and pure Daoism or Confucuanism
in wc is somewhat pointless. But the sam pai fat symbolism does have
mahayana chan buddhist roots. Its not just the bow but there are the prayer hands... a form of "mudra"(hand shape) well known in the Indian roots in the transmission of Budddhism.
Mudras are sources of power. WCK is not a system of philosophy but a martial art form. One of many. But forms of expression are influenced by the cultural environment which ultimately has different intertwined ideas at its roots. The average practitioner couldnt care less about the deeper symbolisms- which is fine.
One of the difficulties in comparative discussions is the smuggling in of western categories of thought(Catholicism v Protestantism)
in discussing Buddhism and Taoism...which are not mutually exclusive as are western religions for the most part.
Hand forms like the prayer hands can have ritual or martial significance (wu),,,oh well-- back to hendrik's soliloquies....
om wallah padme hum

reneritchie

08-15-2002, 09:57 AM

Joy,

Very nicely said.

RR

yuanfen

08-15-2002, 10:25 AM

Thanks Rene
Joy

Rolling_Hand

08-15-2002, 11:32 AM

Quote:
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I thought that was taken from a Hallmark card.

Matrix
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Matrix - You only got the first *H* right....there're more XOXOXO to go. LOL, it's nice to see you again!

John Weiland

08-15-2002, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
oh well-- back to hendrik's soliloquies....
om wallah padme hum
Jimmy Hendrix? Wa's that got to do with it? :)

Purple haze all in my brain
Lately things don't seem the same
acting funny but I don't know why
'scuse me while I kiss the sky.

It sounds better with his guitar riffs. :)

This thread disturbs my wah (wah).

yuanfen

08-15-2002, 05:27 PM

guitar riffs? With or without the ganja?

passing_through

08-15-2002, 06:22 PM

While Chan training might not be a conscious focus in all lineages of Wing Chun, Hung Fa Yi and Chi Sim both make it a primary focus... Personally, I only speak about that with which I have experience. Your lineage may not focus on Chan but that doesn't mean other lineages cannot.

As for Chan's connection to martial arts, check out Zen and the Martial Arts (http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/MartialArts/martialarts-home.html) over at the Zen Buddhist Order of Hsu Yun's website.

I've found the 7th World of Chan (http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/7thWorld/7th-world-home.html) to be quite interesting and useful to be personally.

Jeremy R.

And for the song references, how 'bout:

Row row row your boat,
Gently down the stream.
Merily, merily, merily, merily,
Life is but a dream...

... or "all we are is dust in the wind"

Matrix

08-15-2002, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
LOL, it's nice to see you again! Likewise Rolling_Hand. :cool:

Matrix

Hendrik

08-15-2002, 08:50 PM

"The less of lips, the more of Chan.

Maybe it's time to look at yourself in front of mirror!"

So what is Chan? LOL

Hendrik

08-15-2002, 09:01 PM

HI Joy,

Great post.

some thoughts.

"But the sam pai fat symbolism does have
mahayana chan buddhist roots."

Does Chan teaches to Bai (pray ) to Buddha or Kill Buddha?

Pai fat is also used as the code for attacking the Fat San city.

So, is it that "Chan buddhist" or mahayana, or just by the name of Jesus.......

" Its not just the bow but there are the prayer hands... a form of "mudra"(hand shape) well known in the Indian roots in the transmission of Budddhism. "

The prayer hand has been used by the Daoist for hundreds of years.

So, What will the Daoist says when doing Prayer hand?
"Bai Fat"?

Hendrik

08-15-2002, 09:12 PM

"While Chan training might not be a conscious focus in all lineages of Wing Chun........both make it a primary focus... "

There is a different between conscious focus and inherited, build in, embeded in the system.

"Personally, I only speak about that with which I have experience. Your lineage may not focus on Chan but that doesn't mean other lineages cannot. "

What is the experience?
If it is Chan what is Chan?

If the lineage inherit Chan then from whom and when? which lineage of Chan? if it is "focus" then that is personal teaching choice.
Nothing to do with WCK.

"As for Chan's connection to martial arts, check out Zen and the Martial Arts over at the Zen Buddhist Order of Hsu Yun's website. "

When did Hsu Yun the old poor Chan monk practiced and taught Martial art? Check it out from the Chan History.

;)

Rolling_Hand

08-15-2002, 09:16 PM

Quote:
--------------------------
So what is Chan? LOL
--------------------------

Go home to practice your SLT before asking your ID card.

Hendrik

08-15-2002, 09:20 PM

--------------------------
So what is Chan? LOL
--------------------------

"Go home to practice your SLT before asking your ID card."

What is that Got to do with Chan?
:)

Rolling_Hand

08-15-2002, 09:32 PM

Quote:
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There is a different between conscious focus and inherited, build in, embeded in the system
---------------------------------------------------------------

There's a different between an I D card and a bumper sticker.

Hendrik

08-15-2002, 09:43 PM

"In the stage of cultivating Chan mind, we unite the teachings given above, understanding that all are a product of the mind alone......

We are taught in the first stage that a movement is a movement, and then that a movement is no longer a movement, because no movement is movement and movement is no movement.

Confusing? This is again simply a product of our mind. To reach spiritual enlightenment we need to go through the training that leads to the unification of the opposites. We have to enter the stage of the Chan mind. "

What is this got to do with Chan?

Hey Hsu Yun what do you think.

;) ;) :confused: :D :cool:

Hendrik

08-15-2002, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------

There is a different between conscious focus and inherited, build in, embeded in the system
---------------------------------------------------------------

There's a different between an I D card and a bumper sticker.

so what is Chan?

:o :o :o

R Loewenhagen

08-15-2002, 10:08 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]On Chan, WCK etc---- WCK is not a system of philosophy but a martial art form.

My Reply:

Be careful.... Wing Chun "as YOU know it" may well be an art form.... but it is a complete system of philosphy, science, and health development as known and practiced in Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.

Like you, I approach all seemingly new knowledge with a strong measure of skepticism. However, before I pan something, or rigidly adhere to old beliefs, I take the time and effort to truly study a thing before I imply that it is gimmicry or just fable. I did exactly that with Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi and came away with an entirely fresh and invigorating perspective on the awesome power and breadth of Wing Chun. I do not know your credentials in systems science, but I am a systems scientist and a board certified systems engineer. I have reviewed the Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun "Systems" in significant detail and I can assure you they meet all criteria for defining a complete "system". I can also tell you that, regardless of where you might think their Chan roots originate, they believe the origination is Shaolin, and their ancestors believed the same. At a minimum, if you take the time to study their systems and their Chan, you will find both greatly rewarding and truly rich in wisdom and science that delves far deeper into physiology and battlefield combat knowledge (complete with valid strategies and tactics formulated on life and death struggle, not "ring" maneuvering) than any of the modern expressions of Wing Chun. Perhaps it is time to start acknowledging that not all Wing Chun lineages owe their ultimate roots to stage performers in the Red Opera.

I notice you are from Tempe, Arizona. We are only minutes apart geographically. I'd be delighted to sit down over a cup of coffee and discuss these systems oriented versions of Wing Chun with you if you are interested.

Rolling_Hand

08-15-2002, 10:11 PM

so what is Chan? >Hendrik

You're a little slow... the door is closed.

dbulmer

08-16-2002, 04:40 AM

R Loewenhagen,

You said:-
I have reviewed the Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun "Systems" in significant detail and I can assure you they meet all criteria for defining a complete "system".

What constitute the criteria for defining a complete system?
I am not a systems engineer so an explanation in laymans terms would be best.

You also stated:-

Shaolin, and their ancestors believed the same. At a minimum, if you take the time to study their systems and their Chan, you will find both greatly rewarding and truly rich in wisdom and science that delves far deeper into physiology and battlefield combat knowledge (complete with valid strategies and tactics formulated on life and death struggle, not "ring" maneuvering) than any of the modern expressions of Wing Chun.

Quite a claim sir - so what evidence do you have to support this claim? I accept that if I were talking to you face to face that it would be easier for you to demonstrate your view but since your claim is made on the internet 'battlefield' I am afraid this unfortunate medium is all we can use in lieue.

I don't mean to come over as aggressive in my post but you are making quite a strong claim so I am challenging you to go beyond the marketing and explain as best you can.

reneritchie

08-16-2002, 04:45 AM

This being the internet, a man with a lifetime of study and experience can easily be debated by peers or insulted and attacked by anonymous kids with equal (if not more) opportunity.

While Hendrik's first language is not English, and his fondness for old songs may not be to everyone's tastes, he is, if memory serves, a longtime student of Buddhism under one of Xu Yun's disciples, and the inheritor of a very well preserved and documented lineage of Wing Chun Kuen from Cho Hung-Choy. His perspective, to say the least, should be respected and, IMHO, read with an open mind.

On the topic at hand, IMHO (if no one has already done so), some steps that might help clear things up:

1) To determine if an art is or is not Chan, find an independant Chan master (not a martial artist) and present the theory to him/her with all the supporting evidence, and try and get a clear determination (not an "all things are Chan and so must this be...")

2) To determine if an art was or was not Chan from inception, it will probably require some form of archeological evidence (otherwise how do we know if it was Chan 8 generations ago or only 2?) If there's no book documenting both the art in a form easily recognizable today, repleat with evident Chan origin documentation, unearthed beneath the ruins of the alleged Shaolin in Fujian, then we're all still left with supposition.

RR

dbulmer

08-16-2002, 05:12 AM

Rene,

If I am included in your opening statement then I am sorry - as far as I am concerned, I am a student - open minded enough to do Wing Chun, to practice SLT and prepared to be humbled and educated in my ignorance but if someone postulates ideas alien to me then it's my responsibility to question what I don't understand.

WC teaches you to question your own pre-conceptions and of others - blind acceptance or absolutism in life always ends in tears IMHO

reneritchie

08-16-2002, 07:29 AM

No dude. I was referring to certain (often shrouded behind screen name) individuals who prefer personal insults to productive discourse. Personally, I don't know much about Buddhism, but I think if martial artists are going to start saying what is and is not Buddhist (among other things), they should be polite and receptive to the feedback of those with many more years of specific study in the field (such as Hendrik).

RR

Hendrik

08-16-2002, 07:43 AM

"1) To determine if an art is or is not Chan, find an independant Chan master (not a martial artist) and present the theory to him/her with all the supporting evidence, and try and get a clear determination (not an "all things are Chan and so must this be...")

2) To determine if an art was or was not Chan from inception, it will probably require some form of archeological evidence (otherwise how do we know if it was Chan 8 generations ago or only 2?) If there's no book documenting both the art in a form easily recognizable today, repleat with evident Chan origin documentation, unearthed beneath the ruins of the alleged Shaolin in Fujian, then we're all still left with supposition. "

Well Said Rene.

dbulmer

08-16-2002, 08:43 AM

Rene,
Phew! I thought it might have been yet another fake Internet imposter troll with number 666 :)

Hendrik

08-16-2002, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by R Loewenhagen
[QUOTE]Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]On Chan, WCK etc---- WCK is not a system of philosophy but a martial art form.

My Reply:

"I do not know your credentials in systems science, but I am a systems scientist and a board certified systems engineer.

I have reviewed the Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun "Systems" in significant detail and I can assure you they meet all criteria for defining a complete "system"."

I respect your view. --HS

"I can also tell you that, regardless of where you might think their Chan roots originate, they believe the origination is Shaolin, and their ancestors believed the same."

A system engineer has to prove, simulate, and test the system to pin point the dominante pole location........

He can't just take "they belive" to asume the system (say, an airplane) is stable. (in the airplane analogy, it costs live if the assumsion is wrong.) -HS

"At a minimum, if you take the time to study their systems and their Chan, you will find both greatly rewarding and truly rich in wisdom and science that delves far deeper into physiology"

There is only Chan. The is no Their Chan or Mine Chan.

Just with this term "Their Chan" any Chan practitioner will ask one to go back to cultivate more. -HS

"and battlefield combat knowledge (complete with valid strategies and tactics formulated on life and death struggle, not "ring" maneuvering) than any of the modern expressions of Wing Chun. "

I respect your novel intention to link Chan to WCK.

However,
See, as a system engineer one cannot rely on "they belive"
to set the dominante pole for system stabillity compensation of an airplane.

That cost life and it is a great responsibility if it is wrong.

And all of these are documented.

So, when the plane crush at take off people know where and who one will look for. -HS

"Perhaps it is time to start acknowledging that not all Wing Chun lineages owe their ultimate roots to stage performers in the Red Opera."

Perhaps it is time to revise your article----
Rediscovering The Roots of Wing Chun in KungFu ChiGong. -HS

In page 34, it says

"Hung Fa Yi became the primary combat system of the secret societies.......

For the next Century, both Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun...."

As a system engineer,
One needs to support one's claim with evidents. --HS

"In page 65 it says

The second phase of Wing Chun Development, Modification.....

As a resut of this transition, Wing Chun outside the Hung Fa Yi tradition began to discard its scientific orientation and revert back to a focus based on individual expressions and personal experience......

Yip Man and GuLau....
Others lineages include Pao Fa Lien....Cho Family...."

How much do you know others and my lineage before jump into the conclusion. -HS

As for Chan,
WCK people don't have to go around and around travel to China.

Read this from the Yong Jia Da Shi Zheng Dao Ge
or Yong Jia's enlightenment Song.
Yong Jia was an enlightenment Chan master in Tang Dynasty.
He makes this song after he achieved enlightenment to help
others who practicing Chan.

"Decisively here I say
Revealing the true vehicle
However, There will be people who wouldn't honestly admit.
Directly interupt the root and source is the seal from the Buddha
Plugging the leafs searching for the branch is not what I would do"

Don't we all WCK
Go direct to the center line?

What is the original teaching?
What get modified?

Note:

Hope that this being taken as a discussion only.

Alpha Dog

08-16-2002, 09:05 AM

that was one long post

Rolling_Hand

08-16-2002, 09:14 AM

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally, I don't know much about Buddhism, but I think if martial artists are going to start saying what is and is not Buddhist (among other things), they should be polite and receptive to the feedback of those with many more years of specific study in the field (such as Hendrik).
----------------------------------------------------------------------

LOL...Yoda Yoda!
I've never heard such corny lyrics, some kids just like to sing...

reneritchie

08-16-2002, 09:21 AM

> I've never heard such corny lyrics, some kids just like to sing...

Jar-Jar Jar-Jar...

Even, at times, when the audience is deaf... ROFLMAO!

RR

Rolling_Hand

08-16-2002, 09:22 AM

Quote:
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How much do you know others and my lineage before jump into the conclusion. -HS
-----------------------------------------------------------

Who's the one standing in front of the mirror???

Kid, go to get a hair cut if that helps you to see yourself better!

Rolling_Hand

08-16-2002, 09:25 AM

> I've never heard such corny lyrics, some kids just like to sing...

Jar-Jar Jar-Jar...

Even, at times, when the audience is deaf... ROFLMAO!

RR
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

hahaha...that's what I like about Yoda Yoda!

Hendrik

08-16-2002, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------

How much do you know others and my lineage before jump into the conclusion. -HS
-----------------------------------------------------------

Who's the one standing in front of the mirror???

Kid, go to get a hair cut if that helps you to see yourself better!

So what is Chan?
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o

yuanfen

08-16-2002, 09:27 AM

There are systems engineers, artists, physicists, chemists, butchers, bakers, historians, or whatever- no matter. Proof by authority is not very good science anyway. A model and its
applications have to stand or fall on it's own merits. I gave my reasons for my views on HFY and the latest marketing push.
Reminds me of the early early claims and days of another lineage in more ways than one. Special transmission, original/unmodified,
hitherto secret but now generously revealed...
The old rule applies here too- caveat emptor. If ya like it go for it!!

reneritchie

08-16-2002, 09:28 AM

Hendrik,

Some good points. I think it behooves anyone in a serious discussion to clearly differentiate a) what they believe as a matter of faith, b) what they believe based on reasonable interpretation of fact, and c) what is generally agreed upon as factual. Each is important, and we all likely have some opinions based on each, but the clarity helps the discussion (again, for example, I can claim they had a Ferarri F40 during the time of Ceaser, but unless I can unearth one buried beneath Julius' summer cottage, and could lab test and prove its age, it will be hard to convince anyone of my claim).

Just as a general question, are there any systems which are generally agreed upon to be Chan in origin and design? Would Lohanquan be such a system, and if so, what criteria make it so? (so we could have something more substantial to compare).

RR

Rolling_Hand

08-16-2002, 09:33 AM

Quote:
-----------------------------------
So what is Chan? -Hendrik
-----------------------------------

Kiddo, you've lips, one up and one down!

reneritchie

08-16-2002, 09:35 AM

Joy - You forgot the candle-stick makers. Never forget the candle-stick makers.

RH - Of course. Yoda Yoda is infinitely more likeable than Jar-Jar Jar-Jar.

RR

Alpha Dog

08-16-2002, 09:37 AM

Uno, dos, one, two, tres, quatro
Matty told Hatty about a thing she saw.
Had two big horns and a wooly jaw.
Wooly bully, wooly bully.
Wooly bully, wooly bully, wooly bully.
Hatty told Matty, "Let's don't take no chance.
Let's not be L-seven, come and learn to dance."
Wooly bully, wooly bully
Wooly bully, wooly bully, wooly bully.
Matty told Hatty, "That's the thing to do.
Get you someone really to pull the wool with you."
Wooly bully, wooly bully.
Wooly bully, wooly bully, wooly bully.

reneritchie

08-16-2002, 09:42 AM

Oftentimes gibberish and/or personal attacks translates directly into lack of knowledge/ability/inclination to have productive discussion, or points that the actual source spoon feeding "information" is not currently answering calls/emails, and that the former-VTAA board is not updating frequently enough anymore to allow baser multi-pseudonymed attacks.

Boba Jango...

Rolling_Hand

08-16-2002, 09:45 AM

Quote:
-----------------------
Hendrik,

Some good points >From RR
-----------------------

Nonsense is good only because common sense is so limited.

Alpha Dog

08-16-2002, 09:45 AM

Lighten up a bit, eh!

It's all about balance...

Rolling_Hand

08-16-2002, 09:51 AM

Tell the Yoda Yoda what's outside of his box?

Btw, it's good to see you back!

Alpha Dog

08-16-2002, 09:52 AM

But did i ever leave?

General Kwei

08-16-2002, 10:11 AM

"WC teaches you to question your own pre-conceptions and of others - blind acceptance or absolutism in life always ends in tears IMHO"

It is a very good and valid point but I think "WC" in this instant can be replaced with anything one pursues with passion and interest.

joy chaudhuri

08-16-2002, 10:56 AM

AD:
Funny song wooly bully. Had a special meaning for me.
There was a special awesome great champion Alaskan Malamute named
Wooly Bully. Malamutes dont have horns but have two very erect
triangular shaped ears that look like Batman's.

Alpha Dog

08-16-2002, 11:18 AM

For me, it's just music to surf by!

Do ya like dags?

joy chaudhuri

08-16-2002, 11:26 AM

AD
Doggone right. They can teach you a lot about human behavior
and they have contributed much to the English language.
I wont bore you with a list of their contributions.

Geezer

08-16-2002, 01:27 PM

The way I see it, there are always elements of myth and of history in our stories. Is WCK a Chan from inception? Does Tan Sao Ng have a direct connection to WCK? These are subjects intelligent, professional adults will debate and have differences of opinions on. But beyond that, they have the power of story, of romance and legend. In the old days, as now, arts needed to survive and those who passed on the arts needed hooks to do so. Then, like now, the better the story the more desirable the art and the fuller the rice bowl.

Why can't there a connection between the two.
The Knights Templar, they were Warrior Monks too.:)

Hopefully I'm not completely off track here,just trying to make sense of the thread.:confused:

{i^(

08-16-2002, 04:31 PM

I don't really think there is a point to this thread. It's all doggerel, quips, and star wars messages, whilst Hendrik keeps trying to be serious. So, hey, I'll add in some lidderachoor....from the poet laureate, ok? Ah, whatever...

Shoveling Snow with Buddha

In the usual iconography of the temple or the local Wok
you would never see him doing such a thing,
tossing the dry snow over the mountain
of his bare, round shoulder,
his hair tied in a knot,
a model of concentration.

Sitting is more his speed, if that is the word
for what he does, or does not do.

Even the season is wrong for him.
In all his manifestations, is it not warm and slightly humid?
Is this not implied by his serene expression,
that smile so wide it wraps itself around the waist of the universe?

But here we are, working our way down the driveway,
one shovelful at a time.
We toss the light powder into the clear air.
We feel the cold mist on our faces.
And with every heave we disappear
and become lost to each other
in these sudden clouds of our own making,
these fountain-bursts of snow.

This is so much better than a sermon in church,
I say out loud, but Buddha keeps on shoveling.
This is the true religion, the religion of snow,
and sunlight and winter geese barking in the sky,
I say, but he is too busy to hear me.

He has thrown himself into shoveling snow
as if it were the purpose of existence
as if the sign of a perfect life were a clear driveway
you could back the car down easily
and drive off into the vanities of the world
with a broken heater fan and a song on the radio.

All morning long we work side by side,
me with my commentary
and he inside the generous pocket of his silence,
until the hour is nearly noon
and the snow is piled high all around us;
then, I hear him speak.

After this, he asks,
can we go inside and play cards?

Certainly, I reply, and I will heat some milk
and bring cups of hot chocolate to the table
while you shuffle the deck,
and our boots stand dripping by the door.

Aaah, says the Buddha, lifting his eyes
and leaning for a moment on his shovel
before he drives the thin blade again
deep into the glittering white snow.

Chango

08-16-2002, 06:49 PM

So from what I'm reading here it is clear that there are those that have experienced and have not experienced Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi enough to realize the connection to Chan. I find that alot of WCK lineages connect one way or another to Shoulin. whether it be the Ng Moy story or an extensive connection directly to the Wing Chun Tong. It is clear that some seem to be urged to deny two lineages that give direct and clear connection in philosophy, approach and essence. If these people have the resources to find out more and choose not to it is not our burden. Hendrick, you seem to claim to be such an expert on what is and what is not Chan. could you please enlighten us all with a brief intro to Chan? (in laymens terms because some of us will not understand.) could you also help us understand where you think Chi Sim and HFY came from!

Rene- could you also tell us your theory as to where HFY came from? If not from where it's lineage tells us? I think it would be interesting as well for you to tell us where you think Chi Sim came from and could you also explain coincidences in the historys!

I'm very interested in what you guys think on this subject. I'm very interested in how this thread started to ignore the existance of these two systems and ignoring Chi Sim explanation to it's connection to Shaolin.

Saat Geng Sau
:D

Mike Mathews

08-16-2002, 09:16 PM

What Chango no song? I'm disappointed.:D

I also would like to hear what Hendrick's interpretation of Chan is. Perhaps it will enable us to see why he cannot make the connection to Wing Chun. I see Chan as a tool for dispelling illusions in life that distort our perception of reality. With this point of view the connection to combat is clear. Because in combat we are confronting reality and illusions are dispelled.

Mike

Hendrik

08-16-2002, 10:47 PM

"Hendrick, you seem to claim to be such an expert on what is and what is not Chan. "

'Claim to be such an expert ........."? HS

"could you please enlighten us all with a brief intro to Chan? (in laymens terms because some of us will not understand.) "

Since you wrote

"So from what I'm reading here it is clear that there are those that have experienced and have not experienced Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi enough to realize the connection to Chan."

It is better for those who have experienced to enlighten all of us. HS

"could you also help us understand where you think Chi Sim and HFY came from! "

You seems to have asked the wrong guy. HS

Hendrik

08-16-2002, 10:52 PM

"Perhaps it will enable us to see why he cannot make the connection to Wing Chun. "

So what is the connection?
since you all see the connection?

passing_through

08-17-2002, 12:35 AM

Hendrik,

Two minds meeting, sharing tea in person. Different points of view, one shared experience. So much more than meaningless dots on a screen.

The dharma that can be named is not the dharma.
Chan is outside the sutras, a wordless transmission, directly pointing to the nature of mind.
Does a dog have buddha-nature?
If you say the Thagatha has a teaching, you slander the Buddha.
Investigate the matter and experience yourself.

I can keep on quoting the classics if you'd like. Doesn't prove anything.

By your actions and comments you are a "de facto" expert of Chan. While providing next to nothing of value, you make vague comments. From your initial questions, I was forced to conclude that your Wing Chun lineage does not make use of Chan as a philosphical base for learning Wing Chun. If your Chan training comes from outside a martial arts context, I can certainly understand your resistance to the idea that fighting can be useful for the "evolution of the soul".

Chan points to illusion and reality as a means to end suffering. Combat points to illusion and reality as a means to save our lives. In combat, we are forced to face our illusions and we suffer for our false notions. The process of learning to fight is also a process of learning to return chaos to harmony.

Chan is "A direct method" to enlightenment. "Is the tea hot or cold? Only you can decide that for yourself." The sutras tell us ways to conduct ourselves and how to practice Buddhism, if its faith, prayers or meditation. You may have techniques that express Chan philosophy but without focusing on meditations/mindfulness practice, sitting and in motion it is not really Chan Quan (Zen and the Martial Arts). For example, if you take your practice so far as to take your practice to the level of meditation and another student only focused on movement. You'd be doing Chan and the martial arts, he would not be. Chan is the human experience. Understanding Chan Buddhism cannot come from an intellectual means. But from the spiritual intuition that is cultivated through correct Chan meditations.

Enlighten yourself and you'll realize there's no one to enlighten and no teaching to guide you there. You certainly manage to quote the classics, can you think for yourself? As Rolling_Hand stated in another thread: (Some Lips) is peeping Tom at the keyhole of buddha... But the buddha doesn't know this boy!!!

==========

Rene,

Your comments about Hendrik are potentially misleading. You argue that we should not accept anyone's comments based on authority - yet you attempted to build a case for Hendrik as an authority... you've got brass ones, I'll give you that.

"inheritor of a very well preserved and documented lineage of Wing Chun Kuen from Cho Hung-Choy"

Is this documentation available to the public? Has it been critically peer-reviewed? Has it been published? You are very quick to point out vague references to "some" people that don't support their conclusions - are you including yourself and Hendrik in that group? Until I see Henrik's documentation, as well as public records verified by the Chinese government, it doesn't exist. He may or may not have shown it to you but I can't simply believe you, now can I? I'd have to accept you on authority, a pracitve that you, yourself, call into question at every possible opportunity.

For your information, I have spoken to two independant teachers of Chan. They found the Saam Mouh Kiu concept quite interesting and certainly in the vein of Chan. They also supported the idea of Chan Buddhism and fighting. The two people of whom I am thinking are both in the lineage of Hsu Yin.

If needs be, I'll ask for their consent to publish their private emails to me on the forum. One of them advised me that "Fighting with idiots who want to destroy you is the height foolishness. These people exist like parasites. They feed off your body... and it is not a symbiotic relationship... the bee takes the nectar from the flower but distributes the pollen in exchange. No. No way. These people are like worms in your gut. If you want to purge yourself of them, speak the truth gently and without any name-calling. Don't scream and curse the tape worm when you take the Flagyl or whatever medication you take to kill it. Just take the medicine calmly and let nature do her thing. Try to remember that you are dealing with sick people and although they are irritating the hell out of you, you are ecclesiastically obliged to show forbearance. So retain your "class" when replying to them."
==========
Jeremy R.

anerlich

08-17-2002, 05:15 AM

"... I went over to an old cook in the doorway of the kitchen and asked him 'Why did Bodhidharma come from India to the West?" ...
"I don't care", said the old cook with lidded eyes, and I told Japhy and he said, "Perfect answer, absolutely perfect. Now you know what I mean by Zen."

- Jack Kerouac, "The Dharma Bums"

IMO: Even some of Red5angel's wackier threads lack the high minded pomposity and outright mindw@nking of some of the statements made here.

I'm a systems engineer too, but I hope no one who knows that about me reads this thread and tars me with the same brush. :mad:

Spare a thought for Jerry McKinley and his family instead of continuing with this rubbish, perhaps.

Hendrik

08-17-2002, 06:23 AM

Jeremy,

"Understanding Chan Buddhism cannot come from an intellectual means. But from the spiritual intuition that is cultivated through correct Chan meditations. "

Is this true?
Or is this cooking sand and hoping the sand can turn into rice? HS

"Enlighten yourself and you'll realize there's no one to enlighten and no teaching to guide you there. You certainly manage to quote the classics, can you think for yourself? As Rolling_Hand stated in another thread: (Some Lips) is peeping Tom at the keyhole of buddha... But the buddha doesn't know this boy!!! "

"Philosophy
HFY - based on Chan Buddhism
YM - based on individual teachers
YKS - based on individual teachers "

you post this correct?

so,
where, who, when, what lineage of Chan teaching get incoorporate into WCK? HS

"For your information, I have spoken to two independant teachers of Chan. They found the Saam Mouh Kiu concept quite interesting and certainly in the vein of Chan. They also supported the idea of Chan Buddhism and fighting. The two people of whom I am thinking are both in the lineage of Hsu Yin........

One of them advised me that "Fighting with idiots who want to destroy you is the height foolishness........ These people are like worms in your gut. If you want to purge yourself of them, speak the truth gently and without any name-calling. Don't scream and curse the tape worm when you take the Flagyl or whatever medication you take to kill it. Just take the medicine calmly and let nature do her thing. ...........

Try to remember that you are dealing with sick people and although they are irritating the hell out of you, you are ecclesiastically obliged to show forbearance. So retain your "class" when replying to them."

The Chan teaching is very clear,

"Fighting is the mind about Win and Lost
That is against the Dao
That mind also give raise to You, Me, Race, Time.
How does this type of mind get one into SAMADHI? "

Some do thier homework some don't. LOL

Let's get back to the subject.
What, where, who, when, how, what lineage of Chan teaching get incoorporate into WCK?
Those are the questions, simple and direct. HS

Alpha Dog

08-17-2002, 06:28 AM

I thought Jackie Chan was an actor... oh well, could be a Buddhist too

Hendrik

08-17-2002, 06:37 AM

Hi Rene,

See, you are in trouble. LOL.

Do I need those "authority?" as mention by Jeremy?

Nah. The existing of a fact in history has nothing to do with
Hendrik's authority.

By the way, a hundred years later Hendrik is a dead man.
Couldn't bring those "authority" with me. LOL

"Rene,

Your comments about Hendrik are potentially misleading. You argue that we should not accept anyone's comments based on authority - yet you attempted to build a case for Hendrik as an authority... you've got brass ones, I'll give you that. ....."

yuanfen

08-17-2002, 06:44 AM

He was born in the Shaolin temple wasnt he? And meditated and did other things on walls there.For eight years. Thats why they named some wisdoms as Chan . Some became northern others southern.He travelled far and did many things and even invented a dummy form. Ever since then there has been big trouble in little china - or was it little trouble in big china? One forgets. History, you know.

Hendrik

08-17-2002, 06:54 AM

Hi Joy,

And also he carried a Chinese Official certificated of Chan enlightenment ID.
and a sanskrit scroll of Surangama sutra with Chinese official approval.

Wait a minute...
What is Chinese Official got to do with Chan enlightenment?
Chinese official language is Sanskrit?

OM confusion confusion Home.

Man in black
:cool:

Rolling_Hand

08-17-2002, 07:45 AM

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Is this true?
Or is this cooking sand and hoping the sand can turn into rice? HS
--------------------------------------------------------------

Do you feel like people are discounting you? For all your talk about
Chan Buddism, and keep on quoting the classics....blab blab blab, you tend to puff up the chest when feeling inscure. It's hard to discern what you feel...not to mention Hendrik, even a little girl likes mom's attention from time to time.

Getting what you want won't spoil you...huh? It's not a sin to experience occasional satisfaction and some cheap laughs at Buddha's expenses. Perhaps what you're looking for is a lion's den of egos.

yuanfen

08-17-2002, 07:52 AM

Good historical research among other things should be aware of the problems of induction, the clarity of the thesis, the sufficiency of evidence and succeed in excluding other possibilitities.
In that light, the Chan could have been Charlie(not Jackie)- quite a detective and gumshoe. In the "Coulda been" school of research he may
have gone to Canton, Fukien and also the Songshan mountains
in search of the original lankavatara sutra. Havent heard of him for a while. Was last seen heading west witha pole on his shoulderand a gumshoe(or was it a slipper) hangin at the end.
he may have been busy inventing the steps of the pole form...
to the rhythm of-

skip skip skiptamaloo
skiptamaloo my darling!

Rolling_Hand

08-17-2002, 08:11 AM

Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Wait a minute...
What is Chinese Official got to do with Chan enlightenment?
Chinese official language is Sanskrit>>HS
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Wait a minute...
What is Sanskirt got to do with some lips like Hendrik?

Wait a minute...
You don't have to think too hard when you talk to a nut.

Wait a minute...
Who is that peeping tom at the keyhole of Buddha?

Wait a minute...
Wait a minute...
Wait a minute...

The nut is not a nut, huh...a bannana?

{i^(

08-17-2002, 08:31 AM

But I seem to remember reading that Yip Man had taken out or rethought certain aspects of WC relating to five element theory, etc. which places the art closer to Taoism, if I've got that right.

If so, then it follows that any Zen or Buddhist influences are not essentially part of *the main body* (meaning: popularized) of WC- this does NOT exclude other lines from having a more relative emphasis (it's a very large culture), but does seem to indicate that WC was not, originally, involved with it.

Now, no one is claiming that Yip Man was a Zen or Taoist 'priest' or anything, but he does represent a historical link to alot of lines. Just trying to be a little shrewd here....

Hendrik

08-17-2002, 10:37 AM

Hi Joy,

"Good historical research among other things should be aware of the problems of induction, the clarity of the thesis, the sufficiency of evidence and succeed in excluding other possibilitities."

That is very true. HS

"In that light, the Chan could have been Charlie(not Jackie)- quite a detective and gumshoe. In the "Coulda been" school of research he may
have gone to Canton, Fukien and also the Songshan mountains
in search of the original lankavatara sutra."

LOL. as for Hsu CHi ---- Charlie's sexy sister.

Certainly, There were places in China had the links.....

But, one has to knowledgible to know where to go, to get there, and get the evidents.....

Certainly not just superficially throwing names.
and mix and match un related North or Southern.

Beside the Shang Hai Connection......

One of the Buddhist Monk from an Esoteric school, a well known high level official in China's Buddhism Association and communist party, has reveal and document dowm a system before he passed away years ago.... ....

So, there are all solid specifics evidents if one knows where to look for.... HS

Hendrik

08-17-2002, 10:44 AM

"Do you feel like people are discounting you?
For all your talk about
Chan Buddism, and keep on quoting the classics....blab blab blab, you tend to puff up the chest when feeling inscure. "

It's hard to discern what you feel...not to mention Hendrik, even a little girl likes mom's attention from time to time.

Getting what you want won't spoil you...huh? It's not a sin to experience occasional satisfaction and some cheap laughs at Buddha's expenses. Perhaps what you're looking for is a lion's den of egos "

Keep rolling.
You are a good cultivation mate. LOL

Rolling_Hand

08-17-2002, 10:49 AM

Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
So, there are all solid specifics evidents if one knows where to look for.... HS
-----------------------------------------------------------------

A little inaccuracy saves a world of explanation.

Between your lips, there's always a big hole!!!

Hendrik

08-17-2002, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
So, there are all solid specifics evidents if one knows where to look for.... HS
-----------------------------------------------------------------

A little inaccuracy saves a world of explanation.

Between your lips, there's always a big hole!!!

So what is Chan? LOL
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

yuanfen

08-17-2002, 12:42 PM

The silence is deafening unless you hear the ants screaming
or the tan sao from the outside moving in!!

{i^(

08-17-2002, 02:24 PM

Though not WC specific, this is along the same lines. The author says, "probably not anything much", in essence.

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/cri/6.2henning.pdf

Rolling_Hand

08-17-2002, 07:50 PM

"The silence is deafening unless you hear the ants screaming
or the tan sao from the outside moving in!! - Yuanfen"

May be it's time for you to sing since you know so many songs!!!

anerlich

08-17-2002, 10:25 PM

Paraphrasing a cartoon I saw in an underground comic once:

A master is walking through the Chan (really it was Zen, but scholastic accuracy seems of little consequence on this thread so what the hell) temple. He confronts each student in turn with the koan "what is the sound of one hand clapping?"

There is much swiping of empty air and consternation by the students, and lots of "I do not know, Master" from the students.

Chuckling to himslf, the master wanders into the kitchen to see how lunch is progressing. An overworked and sweaty cook is annoyed by a particularly troublesome fly. He smacks himself hard in the face trying to kill the fly, WHACK! but misses.

"Right!" exclaims the master "100% correct! You have mastered the koan."

"I don't know what you are talking about," said the cook. "Now please leave my kitchen, you are in the way."

{i^(, interesting article, though it spends most of the time hanging sh*t on other scholars rather than presenting real information. In that regard it is a step above the space cadetship, ratbaggery and style (sorry, system, hint hint) advertorials that pass for "Zen scholarship" (now there's a contradiction in terms) of some (not all) posts made on this thread.

If all this crap is Chan, I personally hope to hell WC has no relation to it.

The Gracie and Machado academies have "leave your ego at the door" signs at the entrances. Advice that some of the "scholars" here might want to consider.

TargetAlex

08-18-2002, 12:00 AM

WOW Zen! what is this got to do with WCK?

Zen has everything to do with WCK.

TargetAlex

08-18-2002, 12:01 AM

WOW Zen! what is this got to do with WCK?

Zen has nothing to do with WCK.

{i^(

08-18-2002, 08:02 AM

re: the article.

Well, hey, scholarship is lacking and that was part of his point. I think the best thing about it was the author's effort to debunk 'historical commonplace' in the MA world generally- you know, the recieved 'wisdom' that we all seem to repeat without proof. Like, for instance, 'medieval swords weighed 10-20 pounds', which is a lie, but repeated as if true.

From that angle, he seemed to do a good beginning job. I do hope he writes more.

yuanfen

08-18-2002, 09:42 AM

Thanks so much for sharing that great essay by Henning. He rightly praises Doug Wile's work on taiji and also minimizes Robert Smith's contributions to "history". I have thought for quite some time that it is premature to do a history of TCMA and even
a history of a single style until more cumulative knowledge combined with working knowledge of the art and a background in histiriography and the evolution of specialized martial specific
language can be all combined. Wile's work(I have read it) is singulaly impressive because of this kind of combination together with the fact that taiji does have an extensive literature which wing chun does not.
The long standing myths of Chan san feng as a supposed founder of taichi, of Taoist alchemy, of Shaolin, of the boddhidharama as a founder of actual martial arts appart from breathing, yoga and chan, of triads and secret origins. neija/wajia distinctions are cogently critiqued by Henning.
The now claimed HFY "history" claims should be evaluated in this light. No one is perfect and Henning is atleast fuzzy on some things...at times distinguishing betweem boxing and wrestling yet
mixing them into a pankration parralel atleast once . So where are we--- me thinks....doing wing chun, learning it carefully, paying close attention to the reasoning offered for specific martial motion and application and not getting bamboozled by ideologies and dogmas or being stuck at low level smart@ss
comments and being very tentative on various theses.(sorry no proofreading- sunday mornings are for forgiveness I am told).

R Loewenhagen

08-18-2002, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
There are systems engineers, artists, physicists, chemists, butchers, bakers, historians, or whatever- no matter. Proof by authority is not very good science anyway. A model and its
applications have to stand or fall on it's own ....

As for "proof by authority is not a very good science", I'll take that anyday over anonymous tips, sarcasm, or pontification in a chat room. I like getting my knowledge of physics from physicists. I like getting my bread from a real baker and I'm more than willing to accept his recipes as science in action.

As for a "a model and its applications have to stand or fall on its own..." I couldn't agree more.... unfortunately, many chat room participants simply don't understand that a 1" difference in structural alignment of a technique frequently means the difference between illusion (self-delusion) and reality. A martial system must be "experienced" face-to-face to properly evaluate it. That is precisely why I took the time (and money) to investigate Hung Fa Yi and Chi Sim further. I fully realized that one cannot fairly evaluate anything in an internet chat room.... I've spent the last three years investigating them literally full-time. I expected "marketing Hype" and found real depth of science and philosophy instead. I also found some teachers with serious combat skill and serious training in strategy and tactics. The way I see it, we can sit behind a computer screen and pan anything that suggests we might need more work and effort to truly understand martial science, or we can get out of the house, go to a real school, and start "experiencing" it.... I will always choose the second course.

yuanfen

08-18-2002, 07:33 PM

As for "proof by authority is not a very good science", I'll take that anyday over anonymous tips, sarcasm, or pontification in a chat room. RL.

((Asking for specific and substantial info on HFY( the comparisons of tan saos for instance) is neither sarcasm nor pontificating. And I am
not anonymous- I have mentioned many times Yuanfen=Joy Chaudhuri)))

The way I see it, we can sit behind a computer screen and pan anything that suggests we might need more work and effort to truly understand martial science, or we can get out of the house, go to a real school, and start "experiencing" it.... I will always choose the second course.RL

((I have not seen any serious discussion of science. Using the word doesnt make it so. I do visit schools when I can... and i will take you up on the coffee some other time. Yuanfen))

Rolling_Hand

08-18-2002, 08:24 PM

Each morning puts a man on trial and each evening passes judgment. That peeping Tom has been hiding under someone's bed and having his song over Yuanfen's head.

R Loewenhagen

08-18-2002, 11:30 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yuanfen

((Asking for specific and substantial info on HFY( the comparisons of tan saos for instance) is neither sarcasm nor pontificating.

Joy,

I didn't know it was you using the name Yuanfen... good to hear from you... as for the Tan Sau comparisons.... I've seen Tan Sao used from many angles, at many heights, and often at improper gates.... many popular Wing Chun systems actually train the Tan Sau at the front door, thus negating simultaneous striking with fullest possible force. In truth, Tan is a redirection and dispersion of energy that is most efficiently employed at only one point in battlefield space. From a Hung Fa Yi perspective, there is only one completely proper space and time for Tan Sau.... it is that time when the upper and middle gates are properly defended by it while allowing simultaneous attack with a full force strike. I can show it to you you in a few seconds. For your own edification, play with the Tan until you find that one point in space (depth, height, width from centerline) that completely defends while allowing simultaneous employment of a full force strike.

This does not mean that Tan cannot be used at other spaces and times, but it does mean that a Tan used in such a manner would not be complying with requirements for maximum possible efficiency and economy of motion. Hung Fa Yi's emphasis on always training for maximum efficiency and economy of motion would consider any other use of Tan to be sloppy and lacking in precision.

Repsectfully,

Richard

reneritchie

08-19-2002, 07:39 AM

Sheldon,

> Why can't there a connection between the two.
The Knights Templar, they were Warrior Monks too.

That's a very interesting point. I dread involving more religion in these threads, but I think the following: a) it shows that there were militant orders commanded in the name religious groups in several cultures but b) it does not show that militant orders represented the *spirit* of their religion.

> Hopefully I'm not completely off track here,just trying to make sense of the thread.

Hey, I like different opinions and challenging ideas. In a place oft-times dominated by immature trolls, your post is much appreciated.

Chango,

I have very little experience with HFY, Chi Sim, or Chan, so I'd really just appreciate more info all around.

As to Shaolin in many stories, of course you're right. It's in my lineage too. In fact, there's a storied connection (or two or three or four) in most if not all South Fist systems, even ones that are radically different from one another.

> Rene- could you also tell us your theory as to where HFY came from?

You've asked and I've answered that one before. Or was that just baiting?

Jeremy,

My comments show my distaste for the trolls, nothing more. If people debate, I learn. If people merely insult, I don't. And as you know, I try to support whatever I say as much as possible, and trust you and others to point out if I don't (and hopefully, to respond with enthusasm when I do the same ;)

I agree with you that you shouldn't believe me, or Hendrik, or anyone else for that matter, and that you should judge based on your own experiences and information available. Heck, I was cautious when I first chatted with Yewmun about Cho family WCK 7 or 8 years ago. Now I've been lucky enough to meet Hendrik, see some of their writings, find old articles on them, see an almost identical form practiced on the streets of Guangzhou by another branch of the Cho family, and so on. Hopefully, will all the travel time you put in, you'll have similar experiences one day. And hopefully I'll find an old article on HFY, or see another branch practicing almost the same form on the streets of Huayuan and some place similar one day.

Thanks for replying about independant Chan experts. IMHO that's an important step. Personally, it doesn't make a difference to me one way or another whether the art comes from Chan or some simply teach it in a Chan way (or in a way they consider Chan), but my interest in the art makes me want to know one way or another eventually.

As to the quote, that's nicely put and very similar to some advice I was given a while back. As you may have noticed, I have to put up with a lot of those people.

RR

Geezer

08-19-2002, 08:42 AM

Why can't there a connection between the two.
The Knights Templar, they were Warrior Monks too.

That's a very interesting point. I dread involving more religion in these threads, but I think the following: a) it shows that there were militant orders commanded in the name religious groups in several cultures but b) it does not show that militant orders represented the *spirit* of their religion.

What about the Crusades.:confused:

:)

yuanfen

08-19-2002, 08:51 AM

I've seen Tan Sao used from many angles, at many heights, and often at improper gates....(RL)

((Sure Richard. I have too. Some people know how to use the tan sao-others dont))Joy

many popular Wing Chun systems actually train the Tan Sau at the front door, thus negating simultaneous striking with fullest possible force((RL)

(Richard, as you know, I do wing chun under the Ip man umbrella. Lots of families under that umbrella. Many use the simultaneous tan da quite well)))Joy

Tan is a redirection and dispersion of energy that is most efficiently employed at only one point in battlefield space. RL

((One pointednes is well known in some Ip Man systems.Joy))

From a Hung Fa Yi perspective, there is only one completely proper space and time for Tan Sau....RL>

((See above. Joy))

it is that time when the upper and middle gates are properly defended by it while allowing simultaneous attack with a full force strike.RL

((Rearrangements of words Richard. One should always strive for
proper control with tan, bong or fok.Joy))

I can show it to you you in a few seconds.RL

((Really no need Richard. I know and apply tan singlepointedly and with simultaneous attack and defense involved. Joy))

For your own edification, play with the Tan until you find that one point in space (depth, height, width from centerline) that completely defends while allowing simultaneous employment of a full force strike. RL

((I do that Richard. My point is that good wing chun is good wing chun. The best things that have been said from a HFY perspective- -complements good Ip man wing chun as well. Using bad examples of Ip man wing chun is a straw man argument. Many schools say the same things but in different ways. I will take you up on the coffee when I geta chance. Regards, Joy)))

Hendrik

08-19-2002, 10:24 PM

Rene,

Great post.

"I agree with you that you shouldn't believe me, or Hendrik, or anyone else for that matter, and that you should judge based on your own experiences and information available.'

That is right. What happen in the past will not change because on me or others. What it was is what it was. HS

"Personally, it doesn't make a difference to me one way or another whether the art comes from Chan or some simply teach it in a Chan way (or in a way they consider Chan), but my interest in the art makes me want to know one way or another eventually. "

Chan is not a philosophy.
Chan is a path of cultivation to return to one's Buddha original.

Chan is not about fighting.
Eventhough condition of Fighting can be used to test one's cultivation or attainment or Samadhi.

Samadhi is a tranquil, fearless, sharp, selfless and compassionate state.

Samadhi is Not a location in some temple or
those ----dimension of time, You, me, race, direction.....
Those are state of ego and attachment.

My Sigong, Hsu Yun, the patriach of Chan, was beaten and torture by the chinese communist activists to coma at an old age of 120 years old. Weeks after he paid his due and the trouble was over, he passed away peacefully after sitting in meditation.

He could avoid the beaten by not return from HongKong to China but he chosed to go back to pay his Karma due of past life and help others.

In one of his lecture, Hsu Yun said:

In the boxer rebelation, Qing Gorvenment used the Lama (monk) solders to fight. In the begining, they won. So, these monks burn the churches of Catholic and Jesus. Later they lost the battle. Then, the Catholic and Christian followers burn and cmmited killing in Beijing's Sandalwood Temple. This is karma. One will have to pay one's debt. He who killed will be killed.

As in the History, The first partiach of Chan, Damo of Shao Lin was mudered by poisoning.
After six times he was poisoned. He decided to die since only by sacrified himself can satisfied those who jeolous of him and make them awaken.

The second partiach of Chan was execute by the gorvenment with his head chop off.

Again, Damo had told him that he can avoid this since he has achieve the spritual power. But, the second partiach chose to pay back his karma deb.

So, the 'Heroic " about these Chan masters are not about " I am number one, I am the oldest, or this is the best way to fight" .
But, it is about taking responsibility for what have been done, not to commit killing and fighting karma, and be public minded to help living beings even if one sacrified.

So, it is not about some secret myth or to be better fighter.
To the contradic, in Chan it is said, let go the bucher knive and become a buddha.

Thus, about Shao Lin Temple, it was said, " Number one under the heaven it is about Chan not the Martial art."
it is number one because it is about compasionate.

To properly cultivate in Chan, one needs to see one's buddha nature. Otherwise, the cultivation can't start.

Thereby in ancient China there were monks and lay people spend decade studying and visiting masters after masters, cultivation after cultivation, just to search for "seeing one's buddha nature". And no master can do it for the student.
After one sees the buddha nature one needs to get an enlighten Chan partiach to verify one before one continous on the cultivation.

Certainly, everyone can investigate about Chan since every living being has buddha nature. However, the first step of investigating into Chan is No Sex. Yes, No Sex. if one cannot put aside the sensation of Sex. There is no way one can let go one's ego.
Talk is Cheap.

So, it is up to the reader to decide. Is your WCK has Chan?
If yes then Who saw the Buddha nature? When is it happen?.... What lineage of Chan teaching, Which Chan Patriach Verified one?
and where is the mind seal?

Certainly, post a post like this will get people attacking....
One can shoot the messanger.
But, that is fine. I don't invent Chan.

yuanfen

08-20-2002, 06:58 AM

Chan is not about fighting.
Eventhough condition of Fighting can be used to test one's cultivation or attainment or Samadhi.,,,
I dont invent Chan.(hendrik)
------------------------------------------
Both true.

R Loewenhagen

08-20-2002, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
many popular Wing Chun systems actually train the Tan Sau at the front door, thus negating simultaneous striking with fullest possible force((RL)

(Richard, as you know, I do wing chun under the Ip man umbrella. Lots of families under that umbrella. Many use the simultaneous tan da quite well)))Joy

[Joy, as you know, in the Yip Man expression of Wing Chun the Tan is expressed in SNT at the outer door, not once, but three times. I've seen virtually every Yip Man family do it this way because films of Yip Man show him doing it this way. I questioned this many times and never got a satisfactory answer from any member of the Yip Man family. It is an inconsistency because it doesn't represent optimum efficiency... It doesn't provide for simultaneous offense and defense, yet all train it and demonstrate it the same way.] RL

Tan is a redirection and dispersion of energy that is most efficiently employed at only one point in battlefield space. RL

((One pointednes is well known in some Ip Man systems.Joy))

[Joy, which ones? Be careful how you reply... I've seen Siu Nim Tau and Chumkiu demonstrated and discussed in workshops by virtually every senior student of Yip Man's. They all repeat the inefficiency noted above. And that is not the only one. There are many more like it. Again, Why?] RL

[Joy, I don't doubt that many have found one pointedness is necessary, but they didn't learn it from the forms. Yet the forms are supposed to be the "periodic table from which we build our chemistry" in Wing Chun. What purpose does an inaccurate Periodic Table serve? Why does this inconsistency continue in the Yip Man system and other modern day expressions of Wing Chun? Perhaps because they are just that - PERSONAL EXPRESSIONS. Instead of learning cohesive philosophy, principle and concept, their teachers learned by copying someone's personal expression and have taught the same to their students. ] RL

From a Hung Fa Yi perspective, there is only one completely proper space and time for Tan Sau....RL>

((I know and apply tan singlepointedly and with simultaneous attack and defense involved. Joy))

[Joy, I don't doubt for a minute that your experience has taught you to use Tan at the most efficient point in space and time... just as my experience taught me the same... but, as indicated above, it wasn't taught by the Yip Man system... it was found through experience. Additionally, unless it is employed from a side neutral stance, it still lacks structural integrity. There is an attempt to work around this structural flaw in some Yip Man families by locking the wrist like a waiter carrying a dinner plate. I've noticed many in the Fong family do this in an attempt to gain that structural integrity, but it creates another problem: Dead Energy at the moment of the lock. I've been around the Wing Chun world and examined closely each of modern day Wing Chun's inefficiencies and structural flaws. I kept asking questions and getting no physically sound answers, regardless of lineage or seniority of the teacher.] RL

(( My point is that good wing chun is good wing chun. The best things that have been said from a HFY perspective- -complements good Ip man wing chun as well. Using bad examples of Ip man wing chun is a straw man argument. Many schools say the same things but in different ways. I will take you up on the coffee when I geta chance. Regards, Joy)))

[Joy, where is the straw man argument? Are Yip Man Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu, and Muk Yan Jong all "bad examples of Ip Man wing chun"? All repeat the inefficient use of Tan at the front door. None reflect it on the Yin Line at the proper distance from the body and the proper altitude above the ground. ] RL

I believe its time to step back and reiterate why HFY guys give limited details in internet forums... the answer is simple... people look at a truth and come to a moment of understanding, then say "Oh, we had that too!" In truth, they did not! At least when you show it to them face-to-face, at that moment in time they have to admit that they didn't have it until you gave it to them!

I notice you seem concerned about "marketing Hype". I don't blame you... the Wing Chun world has been riddled by it for over 40 years, particularly in the Yip Man lineage. I am just as concerned by it. I didn't start studying HFY because of some marketing hype. Frankly, I didn't need it. I had well over 300 Yip Man students when I encountered HFY. I wasn't interested in any more than I could personally instruct. In fact, I knew it would cost me some students when I started studying HFY, because our students are people too. They engage in blind loyalties to lineage and don't want to consider that perhaps their family kung fu might not have all the answers. As a teacher, I have always tried to instill a sense of science in my students. If a concept, technique, or method is inefficient, it cannot ultimately be Wing Chun. After all, even the Yip Man system teaches that Wing Chun is supposed to be the epitome of Efficiency, Simplicity, and Directness.

Academic integrity is of absolute importance when teaching. I have no choice but to insist that Hung Fa Yi is the only place in the Wing Chun world where every aspect of "Simultaneous Offense and Defense" is truly understood and consistently taught. The same can be said about Efficiency, Simplicity, and Directness. Other lineages talk about these things, but HFY has a complete science that can look at them from any direction and provide spatial, temporal, structural, and energetics challenges to prove (or disprove) their reality. Frankly, no other system has shown me this depth of knowledge. Respectfully, Richard

Hendrik

08-20-2002, 08:20 AM

Hi Joy,

Bai Fut or pray to buddha can be a Buddhist term but not a Chan term.

Since Chan's teaching don't do riture. As the Buddha pick the flower and Kashapa smilling. It is nature and No those bowing to the mighty Guru..... or you own me and protect me. Everyone is equal.

Even more, if one is using the Bai Fut to commit killing
such as Bai Fut was used as a code name for the rebels as Attacking Down the Fat San city. That is reverse of what Buddhist belive and Trying to manupulate the illiterate class with religion. As in Chinese it says. Hanging the Goat head and actually selling the Dog meat.

On the other hand, it is a fact that some Ming generals hiding into the Buddhist temples trying to "steal" esoteric and or Chan buddhism training to attain spritual power to defeat Qing.
As it was recorded in a Shao Lin book. However, these are not real buddhist or Chan cultivators.

Sure WCK can adapt Buddhist teaching or might have been,
But with today's " I am number one, This is the only secret technic, There is only one technics......."
Those attitude has moved far away from the Buddhist "no self" teaching if there are any. Those shows deep attachment.

Certainly, I am not Buddha. I can't know it all. and people can disagree with me. But facts are facts. No of us can changes the past. If we try to change the past with all things made up, it only bring alots of pressure within ourself. Thus, anger, hatre, fear comeby instead of relax, fair, open, and honest.

Rolling_Hand

08-20-2002, 08:25 AM

Buddha said:" My ego won't allow me to write an aotobiography, but if I feel like I'm giving something back, then that would be my reason to let you know that peeping Tom is not my boy".

Man is a creature who speaks not upon catchwords only, but primarily by heart!!

08-20-2002, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by R Loewenhagen
Academic integrity is of absolute importance when teaching. I have no choice but to insist that Hung Fa Yi is the only place in the Wing Chun world where every aspect of "Simultaneous Offense and Defense" is truly understood and consistently taught. The same can be said about Efficiency, Simplicity, and Directness. Other lineages talk about these things, but HFY has a complete science that can look at them from any direction and provide spatial, temporal, structural, and energetics challenges to prove (or disprove) their reality. Frankly, no other system has shown me this depth of knowledge. Respectfully, Richard

Hi Richard. When did you study in depth the system of Wing Chun as I am taught from my teacher? Just as one example, since your conclusion appears to be all inclusive. It would seem that you would need to have done this at a minimum, in order to speak with such definitive authority.

The tiny bit of Hung Fa Yi I saw a few years ago (and I do stress "tiny") did not reveal to me anything new under the sun, save a different metaphor of expression. But then again, I'm often accused of being dummer'n'dogdirt, so that might easily account for it, LOL. Admittedly, I have not studied HFY in depth, so wouldn't presume to do justice in serving conclusions about it.

I very much respect your right to your "opinion" just as we are all entitled to one. As with other approaches, I've no particular bone to pick with Hung Fa Yi, and not enough bandwidth even if I wanted to, LOL. To the degree that sharing different expressions, understandings, and comparisons can be edifying, I rather enjoy reading what you all have to offer. For my own taste, I'd rather see more technical substance, and let the readers be the judge, as opposed to justifications of argument. To this reader at least, the consistency of dogma does seem a wee bit over the top, to the point of being counter-productive.

At risk of speaking out of turn, most discussions to date look a bit too much like "salesmanship" rather than "sharing" for most tastes. It may not be the intent, just noting that's how it "looks." There is a whole lot in this world I don't know or understand, but one thing I've a sense for is when people are getting turned "on" and "off." Okay, maybe not in regards to my own writing, LOL - I leave it to others to assist me in that. ;) :)

FWIW, I think the HFY discussions might be more appealing and interesting with a more technical approach to the dialog. Examples or specific topics are sufficient; we shouldn't try learning your system here anyway, or any other for that matter. For me personally, and considering the profusion of writing on the subject, not to mention obvious writing skill from HFY proponents, I'm always looking for a bit more "meat."

Not meaning to be obtuse at all, rather just offering thoughts for consideration, and in case there is any value in them. Best wishes in any event. It is always good to see when people have found an approach and practice thats suitable to their tastes, predilections, and values.

Back to my hidey hole now.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Rolling_Hand

08-20-2002, 10:10 AM

Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I notice you seem concerned about "marketing Hype". I don't blame you... the Wing Chun world has been riddled by it for over 40 years, particularly in the Yip Man lineage. I am just as concerned by it. I didn't start studying HFY because of some marketing hype. Frankly, I didn't need it. I had well over 300 Yip Man students when I encountered HFY. I wasn't interested in any more than I could personally instruct. In fact, I knew it would cost me some students when I started studying HFY, because our students are people too. They engage in blind loyalties to lineage and don't want to consider that perhaps their family kung fu might not have all the answers. As a teacher, I have always tried to instill a sense of science in my students.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Richard,

We can escape from the level of society, but not from the level of intelligence to which we were born. Most people don't like the idea of your house is bigger!!! It has been hard for many people to accept your views that they don't have the same experiences like yours.

Few people are capable of expressing with equaninity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at 18 or 70. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. I'm glad you're such a great man to set an example for your students, two thumbs up.

Rgds

Roger

yuanfen

08-20-2002, 01:13 PM

RL says:Academic integrity is of absolute importance when teaching. I have no choice but to insist that Hung Fa Yi is the only place in the Wing Chun world where every aspect of "Simultaneous Offense and Defense" is truly understood and consistently taught. The same can be said about Efficiency, Simplicity, and Directness. Other lineages talk about these things, but HFY has a complete science that can look at them from any direction and provide spatial, temporal, structural, and energetics challenges to prove (or disprove) their reality. Frankly, no other system has shown me this depth of knowledge. Respectfully, Richard
------------------------------------------------------------
Richard: "Academic integrity" and dogmatism are two quite different things. Hence the importance of academic freedom so that different views of reality even in Physics can coexist. See Lord Snow's great book on The Two Cultures and Kuhn on the Structure of Scientific revolutions.The cutting edge of science is often plural and interdisciplinary. The mantle of science is not always easily worn though much claimed.
Claims of science in kung fu sytems can have a tough time in refereed science journals. Even tougher than kung fu history would have in refereed history journals. Although kung fu styles can have and many do greatly disciplined thought, discipline and action.
I can understand your loyalties and beliefs but the claims of simultaneous offense/defense and other general things ypu mention is not the sole property of HFY. There are other perspectives that also claim great depth of knowledge. More productive it seems to me is to compare concrete things- specifics of stances and motions and operational concepts in different styles than verbalizing in terms of generalities. Even though it was called banter--in the midst of the jocular and the outrageous there have been much clarifications of turning , weighting, entering and other things on this forum that gives people ideas on how others do things even continents away. Simply repeating ones convictions is circularity not science.

Hendrik

08-20-2002, 09:22 PM

"Most people don't like the idea of your house is bigger!!! It has been hard for many people to accept your views that they don't have the same experiences like yours. "

If the house is building with cloud, then it doesn't matter if all like the idea or not.

A programmed Rolling robot with small Yi can never understand big Yi. Even it tries to act wise. :(

Rolling_Hand

08-20-2002, 10:17 PM

Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------
If the house is building with cloud, then it doesn't matter if all like the idea or not-- Hendrik
----------------------------------------------------------------

Kiddo, if the turkey could sing, you would be the one!!!

Get off the key-hole and back to your own back yard...and make

an appointment for a hair-cut for tomorrow.

R Loewenhagen

08-20-2002, 11:20 PM

(Joy's words: "... More productive it seems to me is to compare concrete things- specifics of stances and motions and operational concepts in different styles than verbalizing in terms of generalities. Even though it was called banter--in the midst of the jocular and the outrageous there have been much clarifications of turning , weighting, entering and other things on this forum that gives people ideas on how others do things even continents away. Simply repeating ones convictions is circularity not science. "[/B][/QUOTE]

Joy: I find it interesting that you use the above words and then accuse me of circularity. I believe I highlighted some very specific concrete things, like inefficient uses of Tan in modern Wing Chun expressions of Siu Nim Tau and Chum Kiu. By your own admission previously, simultaneous offense and defense is a significant example of optimum efficiency and directness, yet these SNT and CK vestiges of inefficiency (Tan Sau at the outer door... wrong space and time) are still promoted by highly acclaimed teachers and no one seems to see the incongruity of this action. You totally ignored these very specific issues that I raised, and then accused me of the circularity you actually engaged in.

I raise this issue again, because it is quite central to my reasons for seeking answers that only Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun has been able to provide to date. An unbiased scholar and scientist would have to seriously ask himself why highly successful teachers choose to bear the burden of unlicensed insult and snide inuendos from guys like you and at the same time go back to school as students. Might it perhaps be that they are not too proud to admit that they can learn more? Might it perhaps be that they are willing to sacrifice their own commercial machines for the sake of true academic integrity (ensuring that incongruities and inconsistencies are not passed on to their own students when correct knowledge is available if they only show the humility to once again become students themselves)?

Joy, you're a professional educator. Did you learn everything you teach by sitting behind a CRT screen in a university office? I doubt it. So why would you expect to evaluate (and criticize) Hung Fa Yi from that particular medium? You might be getting a bit "long in the tooth", but I bet there's still enough energy in you to get excited about the serious structural, energetics, and dimensional sciences in Hung Fa Yi if you could just get beyond blind loyalties. You want to know why I can't create a paradigm shift in your thinking from a website? The answer is easy.... I'm not a good enough picture drawer (either with lines, sketches, or words) to depict four dimensions in play at one time. But I can show it to you PDQ. Better yet, why not let the real expert show it you. Grand Master Garrett Gee. He's very much a gentleman and more than willing show you the scientific challenges to any structures or energetics you think you have mastered. If you have truly mastered them, then the challenges should be irrelevant. If the challenges turn out to be relevant, then at least you will have uncovered the same illusions in your Kung Fu that rest of us have found and are seriously engaged in eliminating. What have you got to lose... illusions? If you are interested, I'll personally introduce you the next time Grand Master Gee is at my school. Or, you can visit him anytime you are in San Francisco. Another possibility is his next seminar at the Ving Tsun Museum in November. Why try to learn from a two-dimensional CRT screen, when 4 dimensional reality awaits you? Please don't give me an evasive (or should I say "circular") answer. Have you got the "balls" to test your belief in what you know and teach? If not, then we have no more need for discussion. If yes, welcome to the growing crowd of teachers and practitioners basking in HFY's "no bull" reality checks. Regards, Richard

R Loewenhagen

08-20-2002, 11:47 PM

Hi Richard,

We can escape from the level of society, but not from the level of intelligence to which we were born. Most people don't like the idea of your house is bigger!!! It has been hard for many people to accept your views that they don't have the same experiences like yours.

Few people are capable of expressing with equaninity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at 18 or 70. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. I'm glad you're such a great man to set an example for your students, two thumbs up.

Rgds

Roger [/B][/QUOTE]

Roger,

Thanks for the kind words, but I must confess I'm not a "great man".... hell, I'm not even an important one! I'm just a simple neighborhood Kung Fu teacher who wants to believe that what he is giving his students is backed by the highest level of integrity possible. To accomplish that, I feel I have to ask questions and then have the courage to go face-to-face with the people who have potential answers. If their answers highlight illusions in my Kung Fu, then my students are ultimately the winners!

Again, thanks for understanding.

Rgds

Richard

Tom Kagan

08-21-2002, 12:08 AM

Yet the forms are supposed to be the "periodic table from which we build our chemistry" in Wing Chun.
No, they are not. Forms are more like homework. If a student always had suitable classmates around at all times, he or she could complete the system without knowing a single form. Leung Jan proved it after he retired and could devote 100% of his time to teaching a very select group of diligent and intelligent students.

I believe its time to step back and reiterate why HFY guys give limited details in internet forums... the answer is simple...

I agree, the answer is simple. However, perhaps it is also time to step back and consider why your SiGung in NYC (and his Sifu in HK) gave limited details within the forms. Given your previous posts, I suspect you'll say "personal expression" or "blind loyalties." But, there really are real, concise, simple and correct reasons.

You can only find truth with logic if you have already found it without it. --Gilbert Keith Chesterton

Hendrik

08-21-2002, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------
If the house is building with cloud, then it doesn't matter if all like the idea or not-- Hendrik
----------------------------------------------------------------

Kiddo, if the turkey could sing, you would be the one!!!

Get off the key-hole and back to your own back yard...and make

an appointment for a hair-cut for tomorrow.

Why make politics to be the scap goat of every fault one makes?
Why blame on other's?

what is Chan?
What is Yi?

if one is not the resident of LA, One can't pretend to be one after reading some maps and talk to some tourists. Admit that one is not the resident of LA.

The List on lacking of knowledge is continously Going to be longer and longer. ...

If Chu Xi behave in this way, he would never be one of the greatest scholar in China.
:(

reneritchie

08-21-2002, 07:36 AM

Some interesting stuff here. IMHO, one of the "paradigm shifts" that makes WCK distinct is its approach to form in that, unlike other systems, it does not teach via poetry, but via element. Both approaches have their good points and bad points, but preference in one, IMHO, reflects personal taste more than any inherent advantage to either (one person's limitation is another's focus, one person's completeness is another's extraneousness, we all learn differently).

Also, while its always beneficial to meet top notch practitioners of any version of the system, by virtue of their experience and skill (and sometimes sheer presence), such practitioners can usually "prove" their way is "better" to anyone else of lesser skill. (Both Emin Boztepe and Rick Spain could probably "prove" how much "better" their approaches are, even while very different from each other, to an average practitioner of any other branch).

RR

Tom Kagan

08-21-2002, 10:21 AM

Also, while its always beneficial to meet top notch practitioners of any version of the system, by virtue of their experience and skill (and sometimes sheer presence), such practitioners can usually "prove" their way is "better" to anyone else of lesser skill.

Perhaps. A good story was a Sifu I know well (let's say "Sifu A") had a guy come into his school during class and wanted to spar with "Sifu A". "Sifu A" smiled and said he had a class to run but the guy was welcome to stay and discuss anything the guy wanted with any of "Sifu A's" students who wanted to talk to the guy. A few of "Sifu A"'s students were kind enough to take time out from their training that night and engage the guy in "discussions." ;)

After the guy resoundly trounced a few of the younger students and after the guy was resoundly trounced himself by all of the older students (with a bit of "lucky shots" had by all), it still wasn't enough for the guy. For whatever reasons known only to that guy, he still wanted to spar with "Sifu A." "Sifu A" smiled and said to the guy: "Nah, you're already too good for me to handle. But, you're welcome to come back again." I am sure the guy left the school that night full of pride thinking "I showed him."

Actually, that guy was duped and he didn't know it. "Sifu A" used the guy to help train his students and the guy never caught on. Since the guy had no intention of learning anything that night, any payment could only have come from "Sifu A's" need to prove something to the guy and/or "Sifu A's" need prove something to his students (or, perhaps, to himself). But, since "Sifu A" didn't have his ego involved, the guy was paid nothing for all the hard and painful work he did that night.

Once, my Sifu said to a student asking permission for a real GongSao: "Win and you will join our list of winners. Lose and you will join our list of losers. Whether you fight is not my choice to make. The decision is yours."

I've found that those students and Sifus, regardless of lineage, whom are truly top notch have nothing at all to prove. I believe this attribute is one of the constants across all of the Ving Tsun system.

reneritchie

08-21-2002, 11:44 AM

Hey Tom,

That's a very good point.

RR

R Loewenhagen

08-21-2002, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Tom Kagan

Perhaps. A good story was a Sifu I know well (let's say "Sifu A") had a guy come into his school during class and wanted to spar with "Sifu A". "Sifu A" smiled and said he had a class to run but the guy was welcome to stay and discuss anything the guy wanted with any of "Sifu A's" students who wanted to talk to the guy. A few of "Sifu A"'s students were kind enough to take time out from their training that night and engage the guy in "discussions." ;)

After the guy resoundly trounced a few of the younger students and after the guy was resoundly trounced himself by all of the older students (with a bit of "lucky shots" had by all), it still wasn't enough for the guy. For whatever reasons known only to that guy, he still wanted to spar with "Sifu A." "Sifu A" smiled and said to the guy: "Nah, you're already too good for me to handle. But, you're welcome to come back again." I am sure the guy left the school that night full of pride thinking "I showed him."

Actually, that guy was duped and he didn't know it. "Sifu A" used the guy to help train his students and the guy never caught on. Since the guy had no intention of learning anything that night, any payment could only have come from "Sifu A's" need to prove something to the guy and/or "Sifu A's" need prove something to his students (or, perhaps, to himself). But, since "Sifu A" didn't have his ego involved, the guy was paid nothing for all the hard and painful work he did that night.

Once, my Sifu said to a student asking permission for a real GongSao: "Win and you will join our list of winners. Lose and you will join our list of losers. Whether you fight is not my choice to make. The decision is yours."

I've found that those students and Sifus, regardless of lineage, whom are truly top notch have nothing at all to prove. I believe this attribute is one of the constants across all of the Ving Tsun system.

Tom,

Nicely said! I recognize Sigung Moy Yat's brand of Chan thinking here.

Regards

Richard