ha say fu

[PlasticSquirrel]

i'm a bit interested in the ha say fu system. i've heard that in the southern sil lum temple, monks worked with the five animals system and the long fist system to create a style that's quick to learn and would be able to counter the style that the soldiers used (for the rebels). i think that they said that this style was the southern five animals system.

gene ching wrote an article that was re-published in the ultimate martial arts encyclopedia (original hung gar: the tangled roots of a powerful kung fu). i hope that he doesn't mind me quoting it a bit:

"Early texts describe original Hung Gar as having short hand techniques and focusing upon close-distance fighting. Its horse stance was described as small, only the width of the hips plus a half. Furthermore, it contained no jumping movements and could be practiced in a four-tile square (which is about a square yard)."

"The earlier version of Hung Gar may still exist. Ha Say Fu Hung Gar fits the description of the original Hung Gar. It focuses on short hand techniques and defense, its basic stance is narrow, it does not have any jumping, and it doesn't take up a lot of floor space to practice. Perhaps this is a vital clue to the roots of Hung Gar."

the weapons would certainly imply that it originally formed at the shaolin temple, as it uses very old and esoteric weapons, such as the nine-pointed rake, double-headed chain whip, double tiger-head shields, bench, gen, monk crescent-moon spade, and others, as well as the butterfly swords (which were supposedly the only edged weapons monks at the southern temple were able to use).

also, the yee chi kim yeung ma stance is used in wing chun kuen, another style said to have developed in the southern temple.

i know that i don't know that much about southern styles, so if anyone could comment/help me out with this, i would appreciate it :)

p.s. "hung gar" can denote not only canton hung gar and it's deritives, but can refer to the hung tong rebels, as i assume it does.

what's the impression on you guys about this style? do you think that it is the southern five animals style?

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

my sifu taught me She Kuen from Ha Say Fu, after 6 years of Black Tiger and Bak Sil Lum Training.

The Ha Say Fu definitely was flavoured differently from the other styles, more like Tai Chi in it's expressiveness.

The ground covered in the set was larger than what you are saying though and the Horse Stance within isn't small, but it isn't near as Deep as the Black Tiger HS which is parralel legs to the floor at two shoulder widths.

I find the snake form to be very relaxing and excelent for my lower back.

Anyway, sifu refers to the system as "Original Five Animals" even though it is named "lower four tigers".

if you are thinking of studying the system go for it, it is good kung fu to practice towards.

peace

Kung Lek

[Paul Skrypichayko]

It's difficult to 100% prove or disprove these subjects, but if you use common sense and probability, you can generally come up with the best answer, or what is most likely the truth.

So far, I haven't heard any authentic or quality hung gar people talk about Ha Say Fu hung gar. Even other real masters of Chinese kung fu have never mentioned it or written about it. One strike against it's credibility right there.

So far, the only people it seems that are connected with Ha Say Fu hung gar are the people in Wing Lam's camp. Have there ever been any famous or high level practicioners of Ha Say Fu? No.

Dont get suckered into believing everything you read in kung fu magazines. They have about as much journalistic integrity as any internet forum. Not a personal attack agains Gene Ching, but it is the truth. Where does this "ultimate martial arts encyclopedia" exist? I'm sure every word of it is gospel. Keep in mind too, Gene Ching is one of Wing Lam's students. Which gives him probably motive to write anything to support his master or to blindly follow anything his master tells him.

Which are the early texts that describe older aspects of hung gar?

Why do the weapons you mention imply a connection to southern shaolin temple? What is so special about these weapons? What about all the other styles with weapons? What is their relationship with southern or northern shaolin?

Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma is also used in many other styles, including real hung gar. Nothing exclusive to Ha Say Fu or Wing Chun.

All this just points out flaws or probable answers. It doesnt mean that ha say fu is useless or didnt exist. It just goes to show the truth in the old phrase "buyer beware". Remember, anyone can make a style and create a history behind it. Have you heard of the elusive plastic squirrel of shaolin who secretely taught Gi Sim Sin Si?

Most likely, ha say fu is based on some partial idea of real hung gar, that just developed it's own flavour. I guess a novelty for "serious" American martial artists. It could be good, or it could be bad. I've never spent any time to bother learning it, only seen demonstrations and articles from the Wing Lam group

[Paul Skrypichayko]

What is taiji's expressiveness like, how is it similar, and what does expression have to do with martial arts?

[Subitai]

you wrote:"what's the impression on you guys about this style? do you think that it is the southern five animals style?"

"O"= Isn't Master Ark Y Wong the particular style you're reffering to? I'm not sure but maybe those guys will enlighten you.
Other than that, the 5 animals theme is used by many systems.

I can only say that after learning HSF, it changed the way I viewed the linking and internal power of my Canton system. Not change as in totally new, just some added bonuses and such.

It has been suggested that prior to the popular WFH versions of Canton Hung Gar, many southern systems like; HG,WC ect. were using the shorter stances and bridges.
All we can do is research and gather data...but a concrete answer, I don't know.

"O"

The Vietnamese (spelling? and I barely remember the name?) Lai Fu Shian??? do a very short and tight ligament version of Hung Ga that is similar. I met and befriended a practicioner of this style. He taught me only one line of it and it was ALL LIGAMENT MANIPULATION. I have since forgot it.
There is a site out there that has a Vietnamese dude making a Dragons face with his tightened and stretched Chest. Anybody seen it? I saw it once.

"Brilliant general"! "When the dirty ******* finds out, he'll return with his men--then we kill the all of them..." www.kwoon.tv (http://www.kwoon.tv)

[Subitai]

Yes, Paul should know all about 2nd hand information and getting it from magazines. He has already in the past apologized and admitted to not being fully informed during one of his past arguments.

******
Nobody is giving the Gods gospel truth. Who could say that? Just between two of my current Si Gungs, they do the same form slightly differently(Gung Gee for example). So how can anyone possibly give the gospel for a few 100yrs back? What was the Gung Fu like? Who were the masters to make such judgements?

Modern masters are just that, "MODERN". Thanks to information technology. Let us not forget up untill the advent of such IT, barely any masters existed for our benefit.

And Paul, masters don't have to be in the mainstream or public eye (to please you).

I'm on top of you son, your snib indirect stabbs at us got you to apologize last time. You goin' for round two?
"O"

"Brilliant general"! "When the dirty ******* finds out, he'll return with his men--then we kill the all of them..." www.kwoon.tv (http://www.kwoon.tv)

[PlasticSquirrel]

the book i was talking about is just a collaboration of inside kung fu articles that i found in our library. inside it, though, was an article about trying to find out which was the original hung gar. although ha say fu fit the description, both wing lam and gene ching admitted that it was impossible to prove much about it. for those people who think that it just appeared out of nowhere, though, there is quite a bit of info on leung wah chew, and a picture of him in it also.

i think what he meant was the expression of power, seeing as how the snake is a softer animal, using more hidden internal power than most styles.

also, ha say fu hung gar does not necessarily refer to canton hung gar. need we be reminded that the hung tong probably practiced quite a few styles? also, the only resemblance that i can see is the name and the five animals.

thanks for the info, though, guys. :) it's cool that i can get good info on a rare style like this. thank you very much. :)

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Subitai, I ain't your son, and I don't appreciate your ****erotic imagery of you wishing you were on top of me. Tell me, is that a secret ha say fu technique?

The facts still remain that ha say fu has no recognition. All the points in my post are legitimate, and there are still questions to be answerred.

I agree that a style or master do not have to be well known to be legitimate, but there are no questions about the effectiveness of established styles such as real hung gar, real choy li fut, real taiji, real bagua, real mantis, etc.

True I apologized for an incorrect statement in the past. I didn't take the time to check out the facts with my masters.

[hasayfu]

I won't even acknowledge the slanderer as anyone can check the archives to see his other "in-credible" posts but I will set the record straight for those who read this thread.

First, I will let Sifu Wing Lam and Gene's reputation stand on their own. They don't need any help from me.

HaSayFu has a crptic history at best. It's not the only TCMA style that does so that's not a mark against it. There are, however, at least two published books in Chinese that are titled "Hung Gar Kuen" which have sets very similar to the panther and tiger sets of HaSayFu so, so much for "never seen it outside of Wing Lam school"

It is clearly different then the Canton lines and has never associated itself with them. The only thing it has in common with Canton Hung Gar is that it goes by that name and claims Gee Sim as the founder.

That said, Si-Gung Chiu Wai among other hung gar sifus have seen it and can see why it's called Hung Kuen. This associates it with Hung Family fist and not to be confused with Hung Mun (Red Door) or the Hong Chuan (Red Fist) of the north. Now, why all these Hung Kuen forms that are different then the Canton line exist is a whole nother thread...

So instead of spending time bashing something you have never bothered to learn, maybe you can find some time to learn form a real sifu.

As to the original questions, weapons don't make a system old. Most systems inherited weapons and traded with other styles. What is interesting about HSF, is it's concentration on energies from the get go. You don't usually get that detail until Tit Sin in the canton system and in a way, is much like the other thread that ten tigers wrote about teaching it first.

Original 5 animals? Our lineage never claimed that so we'd only be guessing past that point.

Yes, I'm a student of Sifu Wing Lam and I'm open to questions about HSF.

[Kristoffer]

FUUU!!

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[eviljungle]

Why do so many martial artists stay so angry all the time. All this arguing. You'd think they would learn... :rolleyes:

[PlasticSquirrel]

i bet you'd be mad too if you were in their situations.

[Shaolindynasty]

I think too many people are calling too many other people frauds. :mad:

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Kung Lek]

hi-

Paul, I am not a student of Wing lam and neither is my sifu. The Ha Say Fu in sifu and simo's school is known as Ha Say Fu Hong Pai. It is from the Toisan district of canton and is referred to as "original 5 animals" style.

There are 5 forms, Tiger, Leopard, Crane, Snake and Dragon.
Each form focuses on different aspects. Tiger focuses on Bone, Leopard on blood, Crane on Sinew, Snake on Chi and Dragon is a synthesis of all the animals.

The expressiveness of Tai Chi that I was referring to was that the form is smooth and flowing and continuous throughout without tension and without rigidity.

There are hundreds of styles from all over, from the north, from the south, from the buddhists and from the Taoists and from the Muslims as well as from countries outside of China entirely.

Family styles are more in number than federated styles. It is impossible to know the names of all of them or even of the existance of quite a few.

Many Martial Arts are still kept quite secret and "in family". Because they are not in a book,video or a magazine says nothing about the benefits or effectiveness of any given martial art or system.

peace

Kung Lek

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Stephen Chew...calling me a flea? Didn't think I'd hear that from a fai-lo like you.

I didn't make any personal attacks on you guys, your school, or your style. I didn't talk about how you guys suck, etc. All I did was bring up the facts about credibility and it's lack thereof.

I've practiced styles with no verifiable history, and which are relatively unknown, that didn't make them any less effective. So, if that ha say fu stuff works for you, keep it up.

I wouldn't know about magazines and videos, that seems to be somebody else's realm

[Shaolindynasty]

Jealousy is an ugly thing

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[hasayfu]

Hey Paul, you have a funny definition of a personal attack :-)

In the same vein, I didn't attack you either so why bother with it. All I said is anyone who slanders my Sifu and Si-Hing is a flea. Especially if it comes from someone who has never really taken the time to learn about the system. IF you didn't do that, then I'm not talking about you. ;) For me, I didn't want this to be a name calling thing. I continue to post the information I know and look forward to healthy discussions.

The rest of the post was to clear up some questions since I do study the style and know what little history we have.

[Paul Skrypichayko]

No slander in my posts on this topic. What did I say that was untrue?

Your posts however allege I'm a slanderer and a lovely little insect, hehe.

Maybe in the future you guys can explain first hand the advantages of this village style.

Maybe the videos I saw of Wing Lam et al. in the past were crappy, didn't show everything, or perhaps my expectations are just too high.

[Subitai]

Yeah...anyway Paul,
http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=126197291&f=827198002&m=530192914#725198624
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Opps I was gonna delete that...
When you tell people not to get suckered(by whom?) or follow blindly (follow whom?), it doesn't take a genious to see an indirect stabb. You are not any better at it now then you were a year ago.

And closing with "Most Likely"(Guessing about a system) doesn't show any research or forethought on your part.

You had enough trouble even legitimizing yourself to the CHC lineage. Then you made attempts to place yourself at some obscure Choy Lay Fut line. What's next?

See everybody, this is why I like the East Coast HG guys so much. They stick together and seem to act more like a family.

My apologies PlasticSquirrel I just had to do it, if you are sincere in your quest for knowledge then i'd be glad to help you out thru email.

"Brilliant general"! "When the dirty ******* finds out, he'll return with his men--then we kill the all of them..." www.kwoon.tv (http://www.kwoon.tv)

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Trouble with Chan Hon Chung lineage? Choy Li Fut lineage? When and where was this???

I've never practiced choy li fut, never claimed to.

Who says my master is not a student of Chan Hon Chung? You can ask any of Chan Hon Chung's children. My master has known them since 1957.

Who says I am not a student of my master?

hahaha

By the way, make sure everyone out there buys lots of Wing Lam video tapes so that you can be REAL American Kung Fu masters.

[This message was edited by Paul Skrypichayko on 08-28-01 at 12:32 AM.]

[PlasticSquirrel]

i'll send you a short e-mail, then. this sort of thing comes up once in awhile. it's not your fault, though. thanks for being considerate, though. :)

[irontiger]

hey!
first of all it is so sad,that some people hate what they have no knowledge of!ha say fu for many
may seem like a mysterious system that came out of the clear blue!however,does this make it more
questionable as a martial art ?Unfortunatly,those
who have limited themselves to expanding there knowledge find great faults within such systems.
it ,is very important to understand that systems such as hung ga,choy ga,mo ga,have similiar village adaptations,many of these styles were practiced amongst villagers who were on the outskirts of the big cities in China,especially in the fukien district.From many of these sub systems came many other styles (systems) fukien white crane,some wing chun styles,lung ying kuen,
so.mantis to name a few.Also a great example of how influencial these systems were they played a major role in the development of the Okinawan martial arts there traits are highly visible within these systems,such as closed in fighting
techniques,trapping,and heavy tension training.
(body conditioning).we may never know which came
first.Due to a of very poor record keeping system
in China,However,many of these systems were recognized at an early period of kung fu history some give credit to the famous shaolin monk GEE SIMM,as the founder of this form of hung ga it could be he is also known to be the founder of a
wing chun system,that also carries his name.
GEE SIMM VING TSUN that is thaught in Germany.
by Master Andreas Hoffman,this system has many similarities to Ha say fu hung ga,also five pattern hung kuen of Fukien,resembles HSF, and consider FONG SAI YUK the white crane practioner
one of there greatest exponnents!I leave you with this WHICH CAME FIRST THE CHICKEN OR THE......
system to look into
1 HA SAY FU HUNG GA
2-MING GA HUNG KUEN
3-FUKIEN WHITE CRANE
4-GEE SIMM WING TSUN
5-WU BEI HUNG KUEN
PEACE
:cool: martialmoves@hotmail.com :cool: