Wah Lum Fighting Fan

[SolarStance]

Hi Everyone!

I was wondering if any of my fellow Wah Lummers might know the translation of the characters written on the fan itself? I'm sure Si Gung must have dozens of different ones, but I thought I'd give this a try.

The fan has a total of 10 characters on it. The first 5 start with the characters for "Tong Long", with 3 following, then the big circle logo in the middle. The last five start with the characters of "Wah Lum" with 3 more following.

My friend said that it's a poem, but couldn't figure it out completly. Any guesses?

Hope this message finds you happy and well,

)))Solar Stance(((

[NorthernMantis]

Well if it has the emblem it just says the name of the style it says wah lum tam tui pai/hua lin tan tui moon

[SolarStance]

Hey NM!!

Thanks for the reply! The fan does indeed have the logo in the center. What I'm questioning is all of the writing out side of the logo. There are 5 characters to the left and right of the logo itself. Hmmm...:confused:

How's the training going way down there?

)))SolarStance(((

[NorthernMantis]

Well i'ts hard as usual but that's how it ususally is. What school do you study in solar?

[SolarStance]

I study in the Plymouth, MA branch. I'm in the midst of learning Wah Lum 3rd form--that double Tam Hou Tui into a woo dip ma at the beginning of the form is a BEOTCH!!! I'll get it, though. I'm more stubborn than Sifu...hee hee...

We have a rather small school compared to some of the others around here, but I like it that way. You get lots of attention from Sifu (which could be a good OR a bad thing) and the training is HARD CORE. He is one tough dude. It's funny, he complains all day long about how old he is, but can out perform nearly any of us. I hope I'm in that good shape when I'm his age...

)))SolarStance(((

[NorthernMantis]

Cool I'll be starting siu fan cha soon. I heard third form is cool but hard.

[yu shan]

Hi Solar

The WL fighting fan, is this the bamboo fan sold at the Temple? Which fan form were you taught? I learned a very nice fan set from Sean Cochran (plumflower fan) at least that is what he called it. Supposably taught in the old days. A hell of alot more challenging than the fan form I saw being taught. As for 3rd form, I enjoy this WL form. There has been debate in the past on KFO about the "woo dip ma" application. A double front toe kick to the upper extremities, dropping down with scoop block, punch low. What is your view? I'll get back to ya on the fan translation. By the way, are you with Sifu Fran?

NM

How goes it? Sent something via postal system, hope it made it. Excuse my ignorance, siu fan cha is lttle fan cha? I only know Fan Cha, definitely displays the CLF influence as many WL forms do. Nothing to be ashamed of, but, your style claims to be Northern, but has predominant CLF "flavor" wouldnt be all bad if they taught applications and fighting theory. There is more to CMA than low stances and fancy postures, isn`t it all about fighting?

[NorthernMantis]

There are two fan forms that I've seen. Correct it is called the plumb flower fan. It hink there might be one more though.

Could be a different form because there's a form called fan chi that looks dirfferent.

Cool you sent something else? If you mean the shirt I already got it thanks for the gift.:cool:

[SolarStance]

Thanks for all of the great responses! As of this point, I know 2 fighting fan forms. One--to my knowledge--is called fighting fan, which is relatively short, while the other is a more advanced/longer form that has more difficult techniques involved. I have seen another fan form done years ago that might have been created as a demonstration form.

The fan I'm asking about is indeed the bamboo fan that Si Gung sells at the Temple.

Yu Shan, that sounds like a correct and effective app. to those two techniques in 3rd form. I see it as maybe grabbing the opponents head and bringing it foward toward you as you are initiating the kick, then into the Woo dip ma to add insult to injury. The scoop into the woo dip ma might be to move a leg out of the way to punch in the ol' bag o tricks...There are sooooo many different variations of the apps. it's staggering. I'll come up with more a little later and try to post some of my ideas. I love that everyone has a different interpertation of them--it shows the diversity in thinking, and makes the techniques stronger. Sifu Fran is my Sifu, by the way. He's like another Dad to me.

Northern Mantis--Siu Fan Cha is one of my all time favorite forms!!! There are a few moves in that form that are similar to what I'm doing in 3rd form...pretty cool!!

Back to work I go!! Hope this message finds you happy and well,

)))Solar Stance(((

[yu shan]

Solar

First out, tell Sifu Fran, Jim in Nashville says hello. I`ve always held your teacher in high regards.

WL 3rd form: I really did not give an "application" just the easily perceived. Do you really think you can execute the head grab and pull off a double front toe kick? Think of the confined positioning, and applying a "long hard attack". To me this is an impractical move, and only for show. You must be a powerful person to scoop block a planted leg. Have a great day!

[NorthernMantis]

Um I think he meant when they kick for the scooping,that's how I learned it.

Well as far for the double toe bick I'd do it with blades in my shoes but I don't know what else to say that I would do it at a father range to just psyke out the guy.

Hey yu shan I'm excited about what you sent. What did you send?

[yu shan]

What is meant by kick for the scooping? And why must there be a psych before an application? Wouldn`t an aggressive Tech. like double front toe kick be done as an attacking (moving forward) followed with the dropping (S. stance, wu dip ma) also done dropping down and slidding forward...as done in the old form.

[NorthernMantis]

Oops, I don't know what was in my mind when I wrote that. I mean that scoop was meant to counter a kick and that it makes the oppononent loses balance when you move in after the kick is caught.

on the second part I agree with you.

[TaiChiStorm]

I learned a fan form as well. I will check which one it is!!! I just can say that it is very nice!! We didn't use a fan for the form ,but a little stick with the seize of a fan. So you can use this stick for self defence very well. Most of the attacks go to the wristles of the hands and also to the knees!!
Greets
TCS

[Art D]

I never saw any app. in it, other than training and demoing jumping ability. why would you jump up from a sitting position to do a DTK to someones head? then drop way down to woo dip. although it takes awsome athlitic ability to do it well. I always thought that was the point. not fighting w/ it.

[yu shan]

Sifu Arthur

Hola mi Amigo, did you train with or know much about Sifu Fran Aldridge? Seeing yuz guys are from the same area. His ablity was not at your level, but his Heart was. He was one of the few that treated me with decency while in WL.

Also, what do know of WL fan form(s)? And I agree about 3rd form, just alot of flash, yet athletic! I`ll be down soon, would like to see you.

[Art D]

Yu Shan , Yes I know Fran , A1 guy ,has been at it a long time. one of john lupus guys if I rember corectly. Always look forward to see you, MAKE SURE to call when your in town . Going to the Orlando event?

[Art D]

Yu shan as far as all flash I don't agree.certinly there are roads in the set that have function, and the athlitic ability always comes into functionality. Although I will say that stright PM is a much clearer path and functionaly more understandable = useful.

[yu shan]

Sifu Arthur

Was always curious `bout the Lupus story, just like many others in the so called WL family. 3rd form has been one of my favorite WL sets, definitely with a CLF flavor! OK with that, just admit "their" Northern Praying Mantis Style is mostly southern. Like I mentioned before, what has happened to all the Greats in WL? They see the forest thru the trees...

[Art D]

Yes any one w/ any insight into WL knows there is a strong hung influance . although look at 2nd, big mantis , little mantis , there is mantis in there and you find it mixed in a lot . to compare it to CLF is correct in that it is realy a nan / bai style . the bai being tam tui & mantis

[SolarStance]

Hi Everyone!
Sorry for taking so long to reply--I've been busy training! Sifu Art--Sifu Fran speaks very highly of you and has some great stories of times you spent as "roomies" at the Temple. As a matter of fact, he has stories of pretty much everything...

Yu Shan, I will rely the message to Sifu! It' s nice to hear such nice things about him from others. He's such a quiet guy and doesn't get wrapped up in everthing. He'll be happy to hear you send good wishes. As far as the apps from 3rd go, I agree with you. It is a very difficult technique to perform, much less apply. I also agree with Sifu Art that it might be more for developing skill. from a sitting position with the fingers of the right hang pointing upward; left hand palm facing upward (Buddhist prayer position), one might interpert this as maybe a catch of some sort? Maybe a defence in a sitting position with a catch into double kicking a lower extremity? I'll practice more and come up with more ideas. I need a lot of work with this...

As far as the fan translation, I think it might be the poem that goes something like:

In the garden we practice praying mantis.
Through the gates of China we practice Tam Tui.

I could be wrong--it's just a guess. :D

Well, I'm off to work! Northern Mantis--how's Siu Fan Cha going?

Hope this message finds you happy and well,

)))SolarStance(((

[flem]

solarstance,
in third i also think the kick is lower, like a sweep of sorts. the finger thrust will place them in a bad position to manipulate the head. once their legs are kicked out and they go down a good way of arriving with them is the woo dip ma.


yu shan,

i think all but a few toe kicks are meant to roll up close range, i do not understand the foreward movement you suggested

[NorthernMantis]

Well I haven't learned it yet since class is so far away I only go like once or twice a month so I practice what I already know.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Wah Lum techniques are difficult. If you want easy stick with Karate. I believe almost any technique can be effective if you train to the point where it becomes smoothe, quick and effortless. The more difficult the technique the less likely your opponent will expect it. The jump/double toe kick/wu dip ma is hard to do in the form and even harder to execute in a fight. I wouldn't try it unless I had it down 100%. Alternating high and low attacks is very effective and that's about as alternating high and low as you can get.

SolarStance
I'll look at one of my Fans and find out for you. I know of only 2 Fan forms taught in Wah Lum. Wah Lum Fighting Fan is in the curriculum. Plum Flower Fan is a seminar form.

Art D
As long as everyone keeps in mind where Wah Lum was created and taught it's easy to understand the mix.

Wah Lum was created in the SOUTH by Lee Kwan Shan (from the NORTH) who learned NORTHERN techniques while in the NORTH. It was taught in the SOUTH and, after his death, continued to evolve in the SOUTH before migrating to the US. It became well known and standardized through the efforts of Chan Pui, a practitioner from SOUTHERN China. It's Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis, as in Jut Sow - Northern Mantis.

I still don't see why some people have such a problem with this. Wah Lum is not a pure and complete Mantis system so why be surprised when you find things missing or added from outside influences. This isn't directed at you Art although it appears under your name. I know you probaly have more insight into some of this than I do but I have to fend off the extremists that will try to turn my comment into an attack on you. If only they could jump into a double toe kick as quickly as they jump to conclusions. :-)

[NorthernMantis]

Have to agree with Hua Lin here. We never claimed to be 100% pure mantis however I do recognise what you guys are getting at though. Not only that but on our defence just because a form has elongated movements it doesn't mean it has to be clf like. I've seen moves similar to clf that were from different northern styles.

Let me make an example.My classmate who has a taiji praying mantis backround showed me kung lek chuen. When I was at my current sifu's house last new years celebration she showed us tapes of her schools' past perfomances in some celebrations and a clf student went out and did kung lek chuen. Now I say about 25-35% of the begining of the form had the exact same movements of my friends' form. However I don't think that makes tpm southern. lol Then after that my friend got confused and started thinking that praying mantis was southern and questioned me if about it :D Well anyways it could have been bak sing clf and not hung sing clf which is the Lee Koong Hung's version that we know of.


Other than that Hua Lin pretty much summed up everything.

Peace

[woliveri]

CLF and WL,

Perhaps I've not seen enough CLF to make a good comparison but from what I've seen watching Lee Koon Hung, seeing him on Video, and whatever seminar(s) I had, I see no resemblance that CLF looks like WL. CLF seemed more long movements than short, more fluid that WL. Yes, definately more fluid. Of course I'm searching my old memory but that's what I remember. I'm not sure where you guys are coming up with this.

[18elders]

There are similarities although i think it has more hung gar movement. MC has stated CLF has influenced his branch of WL.

[Art D]

Hey I'm not bashing WL , as a mater of fact I think it is a awesome system, I think master chan is remarkable ,As a MAist. and I,m not of the point of view that northen is some how better than sothern. or that Pure any thing even exsits. I was just saying that anyone that knows WL history knows it is n/s . then I went on to say that it is easy to see the mantis in it . I will go further to say there is a lot of mantis in it and if anyone wants or needs it pointed out I will gladly show them. I DO NOT BASH WL.The more I train the more i see in it. Now there are fewer and fewer that can teach you this, look to the older students, look back to the 70s and verry early 80s, and you will see that WL was a different org.

[SolarStance]

Hua Lin, thank you for checking into that translation!

Maybe now we can all get back to the origional topic?

:D

)))Solar Stance(((

[NorthernMantis]

Oh don't get me wrong I know what you guys mean and I do see the similarities.

[MiamiMantis]

Hey Art, good to hear from you....I met you a few times at different WL functions in the eighties . Those were the days of Shawn-Troy-Dean-George and so on. I have been with Shelly since 1988. I remember you had some of the fastest hands I had seen in WL. I dont know what happened and its not my business, but I know WL lost a good Sifu...

Anyways I know both fan forms and you would have no problem recognizing the 2 fan forms. The seminar form is a killer especially the double toe kick. The basic form is pretty straight forward and is similiar to the flute form, same kind of tech. If you got flute down, basic fan won't be hard at all.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
I know of only 2 Fan forms taught in Wah Lum. Wah Lum Fighting Fan is in the curriculum. Plum Flower Fan is a seminar form.

What is Seminar form? I mean absolutely positively unequivocally no offense by my question, but is the "seminar" form a watered-down version of the Wah Lum Fighting Fan form?


If only they could jump into a double toe kick as quickly as they jump to conclusions. :-)
This is a really funny statement!:D

[MiamiMantis]

I learned plum flower as a "seminar form" so I just refer to it as a seminar form. I refer to the fighting form as a "basic form" as it is pretty simple in execution as is not as advanced as plum flower...

Thats just terminology I use for myself.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[mantisben]

Originally posted by MiamiMantis
I learned plum flower as a "seminar form" so I just refer to it as a seminar form. I refer to the fighting form as a "basic form" as it is pretty simple in execution as is not as advanced as plum flower...

Thats just terminology I use for myself.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Thank you for clearing that up for me. I'll bet the Plum Flower Fan form is beeeaaauuutiifull, as well as practical!!!

[yu shan]

MiamiMantis

Your fan form has a double front toe kick? The fan form Sean Cochran taught me did not have this, yet had triple hurricanes and triple butterflies and some ground work. Does this sound like anything you have seen? The basic fan is not even worth the effort.

As for "seminar forms" I always wondered about this in WL. You only learn a part of a form, and you never learn the two-person or hand drills or applications. Why doesn`t WL teach applications and the two-person with their seminars? And for the sceptical, there is actually two-person weapons sets in CMA! Go figure...

[MiamiMantis]

Sorry got my forms crossed. I meant the jump around into the butterfly stance....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: