Internal arts weapon use

[I.M. Toast]

Hey folks:
I have heard a lot of talk about learning the weapon forms of the various arts as a great method of cultivating and refining the transmition of internal power after the hand forms are learned, but does anyone find them practical in learning to use the weapon in a real fight?
I guess that I am asking if anyone feels that their internal art weapons training could help them in a "situation" (i.e. you could pick up a stick and use it as a staff or blunt sword, or "fan" someone into submission).

I.M.T.

[dedalus]

Internal weapons forms are the *best*, but the fan has got to be the lamest idea anyone has ever had about fighting...

[TaoBoxer]

While I gotta admit, Wu Shu fan forms make me cringe, Look at the way he japanese used a fan or a Tessen. Good stuff.

Most practical carry weapon for me at least, is a short blade (or 2). I also have a pair of titanium chopsticks (think bagua needles) that are pretty easy to carry.

Somthing else pretty easy to carry legally and without getting a lot of attention would be drumsticks, and no.... Not from KFC. They are really tough. I used to have one I cut down to the length of a japanese Yubi-bo (finger stick).

[maoshan]

I.M. Toast,

Absolutly. All of the weapons I trained in can be used practically.
My speciality is long weapons.

As far as the fan goes, It's been a summer companion of mine for over ten yrs. and it's helped me through some serious scraps.
wrist development is most important in training to use it.
If you know your hand applications, it's similar. If you know the sword as well, thats even better in terms of total manipulation of the fan.


Maoshan

[GLW]

"Internal weapons forms are the *best*, but the fan has got to be the lamest idea anyone has ever had about fighting..."

First, MOST people who do internal and then go into the weapons do NOT have the simplest basics required. They hop right into the form without understanding the meaning. You can get away with this with barehand but if you do not know the difference between LAN (rising block) and Liao (cutting back parry) you will make them both look the same and the use is lost.

There are around 20 or so basic techniques for straightsword. Things like Chop, Point, Smear, Rise, Intercept, etc... and even 32 Posture Sword uses many of them. So...if you learn these, then the ability to use will develop...then you MUST try it with a partner and with getting hit.

As for the fan, it came as a backup weapon. In the times when it was used, you would have to leave your weapons at the door. Men would exchange fans as gifts so no one would question a fan. The spins would be metal, they would often be pointed, and there may be a flip out dagger point at the base of the fan.

The techniques are a combination of short staff and sword...and it is a decent concealed weapon...not a first choice but when you have nothing....

Again, if you do not know the techniques...it is useless and merely a form.

[TaoBoxer]

There is a book...... the title is horrible but it is actually decent... Secret Weapons of Ju Jitsu. There is a picture of a knife that I almost bought at an Orientalia auction about 9 years ago. It is an Aikuchi where the tsuka and saya are carved and laquered to look like a close fan, which would be worn in the belt much like a kodachi.

The fan was a common piece of clothing in 16th century Japan and was used as a decent last-ditch tool for self defense.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I find that the sword form has definitely given me confidence in a fighting situation. Plus push hands has helped inform the martial point of view to the sword form too, so obviously sticking, yielding, issuing and weight transference become more acute too.
I think the sword in Taiji is the reason why I do Taiji.

[Nexus]

Ever tried double sword Repulsive Monkey or GLW? If so, what are your experiences or insights?

[GLW]

Double...getting the left hand to use a straightsword as smoothly as the right is a real pain. Even the simplest things don't work quite as well.

Moving from single weapon to double requires you to go way back to square one with basics working them on the other hand.

Then you have to coordinte them with both hands.

Once you get the coordination, you still have to get the flavoring and power connection...all without skewering yourself.

[Nexus]

GLW,

Thank you for sharing. I have never seen double sword performed but have imagined it is something. Have you ever done double sword sparring? I imagine it is a lot of fun once a person is comfortable doing so.

[Walter Joyce]

At some point when I am comfortable with my ability to move consistent with internal principles, I plan on going back to some of my external forms, and trying them out . One of those forms that is definitely on that list is a double broadsword form. I figure with all the waist and hip work that is already in it, plus the feeling of rootedness that seemed inherent when practiced properly, its a natural.
Thank you for reminding me.
Walter

[Nexus]

Dear Walter,

If you did not know, Double Broadsword is an actual tai chi form as well. It is taught at the school I attend.

[GLW]

Never tried applications with the double sword....

The timing and such with a single sword ...and all of the other things at speed is crazy enough. I have never really known anyone who did do double weapons sparring. Two person sets yes - sparring no.

I have a double broadsword vs. spear routine that I do with a partner...both sides...the wrapping of the head and such is much more difficult than the actual use of the weapons in attack and defense.

[Walter Joyce]

Nexus,
What style of taiji do you practice?
Walter

[Nexus]

Dear Walter,

Currently Yang style TC. My school has strong emphasis on Yang style and expands to Chen, Pa-Kua and Hsing-i.

[Nexus]

Originally posted by GLW
Never tried applications with the double sword....

The timing and such with a single sword ...and all of the other things at speed is crazy enough. I have never really known anyone who did do double weapons sparring. Two person sets yes - sparring no.

I have a double broadsword vs. spear routine that I do with a partner...both sides...the wrapping of the head and such is much more difficult than the actual use of the weapons in attack and defense.

GLW,

The sword information thus far is fantastic. The two person set with broadswords and staff sounds like great fun. I do spear/staff training myself, not crossing with any other weapons though.

When you say wrapping of the head, you are referring to the whipping of the spear head around an opponent, like the back of a calf or the side of the body to a kidney?

[Nanking '28]

Anyone know about a Fu Family broadsword style???

[TaoBoxer]

All I have ever heard or seen is that famous pic of Fu ZhenSong with that Bagua Dao.

Johnny Lee or Andy Chung might now. I talked to Bow Sim Mak once about Fu style and she wasn't real helpful.

[GLW]

Actually I was talking about the broadsword part. you block across the body - say with the right sword from right to left, wrap the head while blocking the back and the left hand is also circling the head...then you end up blocking again and doing a cut with the left sword while the right ends up under the left arm....

It is the typical double broadsword movements where both are doing constant block/cut combinations.

The spear at the same time is doing things like jab, slide jab...it can be a lot of fun..and the better you get at it the more time seems to expand and the slower it appears...even though you are going faster....

[wufupaul]

Johnny Lee teaches the Fu Bagua dao, I saw several of his students, my sihings, perform it over the years, it's a beautiful form.

[Nexus]

Originally posted by GLW
Actually I was talking about the broadsword part. you block across the body - say with the right sword from right to left, wrap the head while blocking the back and the left hand is also circling the head...then you end up blocking again and doing a cut with the left sword while the right ends up under the left arm....

It is the typical double broadsword movements where both are doing constant block/cut combinations.

The spear at the same time is doing things like jab, slide jab...it can be a lot of fun..and the better you get at it the more time seems to expand and the slower it appears...even though you are going faster....

As a staff practice partner once yelled out, 'It feels like were in a kung fu movie' :D

[Walter Joyce]

Nexus,
The reason I asked is I also study Yang, and was wondering if the double sword form would be something I would eventually learn where I study.
Thanks,
Walter

[GLW]

If the instructor only knows Yang style, the answer would be no. Yang style classically has the barehand, sword, broadsword, and then training methods with the staff/spear (but by almost all accounts, the routine was lost - even according to Yang family sources).

If you have a teacher that does other styles...maybe.

[Walter Joyce]

GLW,
I train at Chu Gin Soon's school in Boston. The curriculum you listed is the one I am familiar with. They do teach the staff/spear training methods, I haven't heard the lineage discussed. Thanks for the information.
Walter

[dedalus]

Just wondering what kinds of two-person exercises you practise, and what precautions (if any) you take with the spearhead...

[Nexus]

Originally posted by Walter Joyce
GLW,
I train at Chu Gin Soon's school in Boston. The curriculum you listed is the one I am familiar with. They do teach the staff/spear training methods, I haven't heard the lineage discussed. Thanks for the information.
Walter

Dear Walter,

The training at our Center varies, but generally the main weapons are taught to the general audience of students (single sword, staff, spear, double broadsword) in public classes, and others are taught only to one student who specializes in that weapon or area.

I will training double sword privately, meaning it is not a public class offered here at the Center at this time.

The method in my interpretation is not meant to keep anything secret but rather allow for a student to develop certain areas to very refined and high levels. This would allow that student to eventually offer to teach classes on the subject to the general audience and the teacher would have had specialized training in the area ensuring that the quality being taught to be good.

Our school also offers Chen style, 42 movement Sun style, Hsing-I and Pa Kua.

We also have a teacher who is a studies Wudang style with Lao Ma from the Magic Tortoise school http://www.magictortoise.com who studied Wudang in China with Ding Ye Ye (sp?). As his skill increases I believe the school will offer Wudang as well in the future.

It is nice to hear about your school, feel free to share anything else of interest.