internal knife dissarming

[beautifulvaley]

As an internal artist how would you disarm someone with a knife?
Would it matter if it was a domestic knifing, or a "hey give ur money" situation in a alley, and so on.
Thanks.

__________________________________________________ __
'' KICK SOME ASSSSSSSSSSS AND MAKE EM BLEED LIKE PIGS"
" GET HIT IN THE HEAD, HARD, TELL YOU LIKE IT"

[Merryprankster]

Well, it's pretty simple.

Guy comes at you with a knife. He sticks you in the gut with it, and lets go.

You have now "internally" disarmed the knifewielder. :D :D :D :D :D

[Skarbromantis]

Its stuff like that, that keeps me coming back!

Skard1

[Ryu]

Guy comes at you with a knife. He sticks you in the gut with it, and lets go.

You have now "internally" disarmed the knifewielder.



Wakka wakka!

[Merryprankster]

Alright there fozzie... maybe you can do better!!!!

:P

[Sharky]

i was gonna answer this thread, but i really couldn't be bothered.

what do you expect us to say man?

[African Tiger]

But what if the guy sticks the knife into your a.s.s? Wouldn't that be considered internal?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Dangit MP, I saw the subject, and you beat me to the gag!

[Shadow Dragon]

Internal Knife Disarming:

Hmm, lets see.

Get the ol' Chi-Ball ready and fired up, send it to engulf the Knife and chi-blast the Knife to it's component molecules.

Does it matter why I get a Knife stuck into me what the Guys motivation or circumstances are.

HECK NO.

Think about it too long and your last thought will be along those lines:
"Ouch, that hurts, maybe I should have disarmed him before the stuck the thing into me."

Cheers.

[No_Know]

I hopefully would allow person to commit to the stab or cut. As I can likely withstand a thrust of a knife (moving back to exhaust the thrust energy or use My Breathing to accept the stab). I would allow the thrust or cut (a full commit action), then grab for the hand/wrist. Wrrench to disarm or follow alongto loosen the grip while disarming~. My skin is reddened and sore later but not stabbed through because of My Breathing.

Life and Death things should not be tested. As if Even the best of things can fail. Try such skill or ability ONLY~ when most dire and must to Succeed.

Perhaps some-such some might say, very good whatever whatever.

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, I'm pretty new to ma generally, and have never trained a knife disarm, but do study what's generally considered internal, so...

If I can see the knife, I'll concentrate on the hand holding it. Feint with the body, and use the 'off' hand (my left) to attack the limb holding it, hoping the assailant buys my feint. Once control at hand or wrist is achieved, twist the hand so the thumb is pushed toward the elbow - I'm no chinna expert, but this usually causes pain. The knife itself is now about 50%-75% under my control, I would think. Using the flat of the hand against the flat of the knife, exert contrary pressure to the blade (once again, hoping my opponent has more or less forgotten about the empty hand they still have free) to fully break the grip of the assailant, forcing him to drop the weapon. Since he's already committed to an assault with a deadly weapon against me, go ahead and break whatever seems easiest to break from the resulting position.

But, more likely I'd get cut bad. Still, the guy was coming at me with a knife. I'd have been cut bad regardless - at least this way I had a slight chance.

[Chris McKinley]

No Know,

Been watching a lot of Kung Fu Theater or something? What is this "My Breathing" thing in caps, anyway? Is it some kind of proprietary or trademarked method? Anyway, I'll assume you're just having a little fun with us on that last post since what you described is remarkably consistent in its likelihood to get you dead as quickly as possible.

Chang Style Novice,

Excellent post. Not something I personally would try, having faced a bladed encounter more than once, but at least you were posting something serious.

I'm also assuming in this thread that we are talking about being empty handed at the time we are facing the bladed opponent, since it wasn't specified either way. Facing a guy with a blade is a lot like being in a blind alley on foot and facing a guy driving a car and attempting to run over you. Ultimately, it's the MAN you are fighting, not the vehicle, and your tactics should reflect this, but you sure as hell BETTER stay the fock out of the path of the car.

To attempt control of the blade or not to attempt control of the blade? That's the old and ongoing question. IMO, anybody who tells you that the ONLY way to go is this way or that way on the issue is full of it. The crime statistics DO reflect the fact that most encounters where the victim survived the attack involved a controlling of the weapon-bearing limb at some point in the altercation. However, they also reflect the fact that you are more likely to get cut attempting control of the attacker's weapon-bearing limb than if you attacked the attacker more directly. Now, it's obviously better to get cut and survive than to get killed, but what usually doesn't get reported in the stats is that the increased survival rate of those attempting control was only significant in those who FIRST managed to strike a disabling or distracting blow to the attacker before making the attempt to control or disarm the weapon-bearing limb.

What's to be learned from this? The very same thing that has saved my ass more than once in facing a bladed opponent: strike first, fast and hard to a vital target and/or the weapon-bearing limb THEN attempt control of the weapon-bearing limb.

Even with this combination, there are NO guarantees. The same tactic may not work the next time for me if God forbid I should be attacked by a knifer. Going empty hand vs. a blade, even with an untrained assailant, is a horrible focking nightmare that you are not likely to emerged unscathed from. With such a do-or-die situation, each person has to make up their own mind about attempting to control or not.

Remember kids.....always carry your OWN weapon, mmmkay?

[Ralek]

I have a friend in the army and he is gone now to some fort or something. But when he was here we were always wrestling or something. I would just let him take me down with the double leg and then i would pull guard. I could armbar him easily and lots of times take his back or triangle him.

He would get real mad when i let go of a choke because he WANTED me to put him unconcious. He got really mad and took off a chain necklace around his neck when i had him in guard. He tried to hit my face with it. I was able to pull him forward with my legs and tie him up. I got his arm in that arm wrap thing where you his arm is around his neck and you hold his wrist. Then i swept him with sort of a flower sweep and ended up on top with a triagnle around his body that was crushing his ribs. Then he siad he gave up.

He is a nut case. Then he was complaining about a headache and i told him he should tap out when i'm choking him or he can get brain damage.

This was not a knife or anything but that chain was kinda scary. i think tying up their arms somehow might work but if they are already far away that might be impossible.

[No_Know]

Chris McKinley,

.....My Breathing, I don't think I could call it a Kung-Fu and hopefully it's not qigong. It's a reference to things I do. There is constantcy, therefore the capitals.

Absorbing a thrust based attack by moving with it (same speed or slightly slower (to get closer to the attack limb when empty of primary attack, might not be something likely to get the user killed who does it appropriately at that moment.~

[Ralek]

I think no_know is chinese so he doesn't speak very good english. I think what he was trying to say was that he wanted them to swing full power and over-extend thier arm and make it easier for him to put them off balance when he catches their wrist. Rather than having them do little quick slices and fakes where it would be impossible to ever get control of their arm. If they swing wildly it might be easier to gain control of their arm. One big swing that you can see rather than 10 little quick slices and stabs.

[Ralek]

Know_no said he wanted them to "commit" to their attack with the knife. So he wants them to "commit" all their power and balance and momentum so he can more easily control them.

If all they do is the quick slices and stabs they are never really commiting all their power and stuff to any of their attacks and it's hard to gain control of their arm.

To the untrained reader it sounds like know_no is saying he would let them stab him. But read more closely and you will see that is not what he is saying.

When he says "accept the stab" and "allow full commit action" that means he wants them to swing full power and wild. One big huge attack that's easier to defend.

[bob10]

In my time in CIMA I saw very little direct knife defence training. In fact when I asked one teacher about it he said "oh in the USA people usually carry a gun".
Other than that , I've seen some Erle Montaigue stuff which was OK-ish, at least he had some ideas, and we mostly trained in bits and pieces picked up from other arts.

If you really want knife work I'd suggest looking outside of the IMA

[Liokault]

Im with Ralek here.


no_knowq
What happens when you let them commit to an attack (any attack) is that you get cut.......either with the initial attack which happens very fast and really requires no commitment or the second slash that so easly follows the first and can be done much faster with a knife than with an empty hand.

I have yet to see any martial art style or individual that i think can handle a knife attack with any real chance of not dieing (i say not dieing rather than winning as every thing is differant with knifes).

Most martial arts styles that have knife self defense aspects to them are so far from reality that they are dangerouse. Even a average guy who has thought a bit about how a kinfe works is going to take out the best bare hand fighter that you could name unless that guy gets very lucky.....and the knife guy lets him know their is a knife....which he wont.

[bob10]

You are right in that any knife attack is an exercise in damage limitation and survival.

However there are arts and methods that cover this area very well, with teachers who have gone through the mill (Mikhail Ryabko has some very nasty looking scars for one).

I'd like to think that the old days of the X-block against the downward stab have gone, but looking around I'm not so sure!

Other advise is to practice using objects against an attacker - coat, chair ,etc etc

[Former castleva]

Nice post (I´m certainly lacking imagination with these comments but...)
There are many ways I think,but it is always very serious threat.
As certain kung-fu styles teach,you should look for any kind of weapon with some resources from the place instead of facing the thug unarmed (unfortunately,it is not always possible)
As bob previously mentioned,
your own clothing could come in handy.
A shirt can be wrapped around your arm for more safe blocking or used to wrap HIM up.
A coat then,would be even better in some ways as you can wrap his weapon hand temporarily and then won´t/DON´T hesitate to attack him with full power and intention,to most vital points.
A belt with a buckle for distraction,shoe for throwing etc.
Otherwise,those big swings would be what I would "prefer" a bit more.
Straight shot forwards,or an overhead strike (good for controlling his arm then disabling him or going to a safety zone etc.) Some aikido/jujitsu techniques would come to play.
To keep it simple,some simple grabbing of the weapon arm then immediately striking hard (holding the grip for too long might end up badly)
And as a general information:
-keep your personal space
-watch his hands
Don´t let him get the element of surprise.

[The Willow Sword]

go internal and internally reach for my concealed internal sig 40mm and bus a cap. :D

hope this helps to CLARIFY what an internalist would do against a knife.:D

MRTWS

[BSH]

People continue to limit themselves to only Internal or only External. Most traditional CMA's contained both, although few do any more.

From the Internal perspective, higher levels of authentic Iron Body training can turn bladed weapons.

More importantly, with true internal, you should be able to move much faster than your knife-wielding opponent.

At this point, the external training should be there to teach you how to disarm/deal with the knife.

[Braden]

:(

[Liokault]

BSH do you really belive that? have you seen it?

Take it from me........it dont happen. i mean what would happen if you had to have your apendix out?

[bob10]

I can believe that there are methods to help you once you have been stabbed, or methods to turn so as to lessen the depth of the wound. But are you saying that skin can deflect blade?

As for speed - sometimes you can move too fast

[Former castleva]

Willow,
Now i see when internalists talk about jin and penetrating striking to damage internally,shock one´s "guts" and stuff...
;)

[BSH]

Liokault:

Do I believe it. Yes. Have I witnessed it. No.

I have witnessed lower levels of Iron Body. My personal training allows me to accept punches from people with little or no damage and allows me to recover much quicker than I used to be able to. I have witnessed a higher level which allowed the person to accept a full force staff strike without damage or bruising.

Having seen what I have seen and experienced what I have experienced, I believe the blade turning is real. Personally, I don't care if other people believe me or not, I was answering the original question on this thread.


Take it from me........it dont happen. i mean what would happen if you had to have your apendix out?

We are talking Internal here. I did not say that the skin turns the knife. You figure it out.

Your question is like saying: "You just learned how to punch, how can you walk down the street without punching everyone?"

[BSH]

Liokault:

Do I believe it. Yes. Have I witnessed it. No.

I have witnessed lower levels of Iron Body. My personal training allows me to accept punches from people with little or no damage and allows me to recover much quicker than I used to be able to. I have witnessed a higher level which allowed the person to accept a full force staff strike without damage or bruising.

Having seen what I have seen and experienced what I have experienced, I believe the blade turning is real. Personally, I don't care if other people believe me or not, I was answering the original question on this thread.


Take it from me........it dont happen. i mean what would happen if you had to have your apendix out?

We are talking Internal here. I did not say that the skin turns the knife. You figure it out.

Your question is like saying: "You just learned how to punch, how can you walk down the street without punching everyone?"

[BSH]

Liokault:

Do I believe it. Yes. Have I witnessed it. No.

I have witnessed lower levels of Iron Body. My personal training allows me to accept punches from people with little or no damage and allows me to recover much quicker than I used to be able to. I have witnessed a higher level which allowed the person to accept a full force staff strike without damage or bruising.

Having seen what I have seen and experienced what I have experienced, I believe the blade turning is real. Personally, I don't care if other people believe me or not, I was answering the original question on this thread.


Take it from me........it dont happen. i mean what would happen if you had to have your apendix out?

We are talking Internal here. I did not say that the skin turns the knife. You figure it out.

Your question is like saying: "You just learned how to punch, how can you walk down the street without punching everyone?"

[Merryprankster]

Got Lineage?

Well, that sums it up, don't it. What a lousy question--or more precisely, the premise behind it is lousy. At least now I know why you think special training will allow a person to deflect a knife attack with their internal development.

And people WONDER why the term "Tai Chi Hippy," was invented....

[BSH]

MerryPrankster

Nice Post. I now see the world in a different way. Thank you for sharing your enlightened views with me.

[mantiskilla]

why dont you ask some of the fighters in the "boxer rebellion", how it worked out for them?
________
GSX-R400 (http://www.suzuki-tech.com/wiki/Suzuki_GSX-R400)

[Merryprankster]

Nice Post. I now see the world in a different way. Thank you for sharing your enlightened views with me.

I get this from a guy who thinks it's possible to turn knifepoints with your body if he has special training, and has a signature that indicates he's more concerned with who taught whom rather than what the person can DO :rolleyes:

That's it, feet BACK on the ground... there we go... I know it'll be tough to bear the load at first, but you'll be ok in a bit....

[Internal Boxer]

BSH

LOL LOL LOL LOL, HA HA HA......BSH.....stop.......please.........guts hurting......cannot stop.......laughing.....!!!!!

Yes it must be quite an effective form of self defence, tell the knife attacker that "your blade cannot harm me, my skin is like a shield of steel" (Almost Batfink) And they will be rolling about the floor in uncontrollable laughter, FIGHT WON!! the art of Comedy FU ;)

Seriously I do not need to explain the flaws in your logic, you dig a deeper hole for yourself more than any scathing comments I or anyone else could write. keep it up I love it entertainment!!:D :D :D

Bet you practice empty force stuff as well.:rolleyes:

[Internal Boxer]

We need more people like BSH here, he cheers me up no end:)

[Ford Prefect]

Guys guys... BSH took the title of the thread too literally. Calm down. ;)

[BSH]

I am once again humbled by the masses. One day I will be as enlightened as the rest of the Martial Arts community. In the meantime, I will continue to entertain my superiors.

[bob10]

Oh get off your high horse. Do you really expect to make assertions like that and not have some sort of negative or questioning feedback?

[Le nOObi]

My sifu lets people shoot him in the head. Afterwards there are not marks or anything. Ive seen it with my own eyes. He is that good.

[DelicateSound]

Ah how Kung Fu can defy the laws of physics.

Next we'll see BSH fly past the window, arms outstretched, various electrical appliances plugged into his orifices, powered by his defiance of the laws of primary thermodynamics......

[BSH]

Are you sure it is my horse that is high? I enjoy the negative feedback. It keeps me entertained.

It is always good to understand how closed people's minds are. You noticed that instead of saying: "I don't believe you or I don't think that is possible.", the people that have posted have responded with absolutes, "It is not possible."

Have any of you had to ever say the words, "Gee, I didn't think that was possible?"

I have finally learned that little is absolute. While the laws of phsysics are concrete, too many of the axioms referenced as law are still theories, even though they have become widely excepted as fact. We continue to strive to learn more about our universe and as we are able to see ****her into space, we find more things we can't explain, or things that seem to disprove what we have previously believed.

Gravity will continue to hold me down, until the earth starts spinning or something else pulls harder the other direction.

I don't know anything, but I have learned a lot. I hope to keep learning.

Doubt; believe; whatever, just keep an open mind and enjoy the ride.

Peace. I await the next flame.