Power Generation

[red5angel]

I was watching a friend do some ASP training (ASP are those telescoping sticks you often see police and security officers carrying) the other day, and I noticed one of his student’s performance could be enhanced by making a few small changes. I got him to generate power from his back foot, instead of his front foot when swinging. We discussed the dantien a little and I explained to him how he could generate even more power but drawing it from that area. He practiced a few times, and after sort of pulling it all together whacked the bag hard enough to make the instructor step back!
After seeing a different but obvious example of how to generate this internal sort of energy I began to play with it a little. A classmate and I did some off the cuff punching drills just to see what we could do, throwing punches from the shoulder, putting the back into it, aligning the spine and following those principles I had showed that student. A fellow who was a TKD student got into is and so we were able to compare some notes with an external art and we came to the conclusion that the internal stuff, even at our beginning level, has and will have a lot of potential as time goes on!

[S.Teebas]

Ive noticed i can improve my power in hitting golf balls at the driving range, if i apply some wing chun principals! :D :D

[gnugear]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Ive noticed i can improve my power in hitting golf balls at the driving range, if i apply some wing chun principals! :D :D

LOL! I've heard that as well!

[yenhoi]

How did you show him to draw power from the dantien?

How can it be possible to haphazzardly control the dantien and harness extra energy without some sort of proper cultivation?

[anerlich]

Originally posted by yenhoi
How can it be possible to haphazzardly control the dantien and harness extra energy without some sort of proper cultivation?

I don't think it can be done haphazardly, but the answer depends on whether you regard "qi" and "jing" as some ineffable force that requires decades of cultivation, or whether you ignore the marketingese of the neijia and put it down to sound body mechanics.

The latter takes a lot less time than the former, and IMO has both more chance of effectiveness and more basis in reality.

Disagree? You have that option.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Ive noticed i can improve my power in hitting golf balls at the driving range, if i apply some wing chun principals!Yes, I have noticed this as well! :cool:

Matrix

[yuanfen]

Only golf balls?

I have been able to keep the apple bonkers away too!

They only try to get me when I use my heels.

[Atleastimnotyou]

The dan tien is difficult to learn to use. If you are interested, i suggest learning the Tai Chi ball that is in Chen style tai chi

[yenhoi]

Quote anerlich:

don't think it can be done haphazardly, but the answer depends on whether you regard "qi" and "jing" as some ineffable force that requires decades of cultivation, or whether you ignore the marketingese of the neijia and put it down to sound body mechanics.

The latter takes a lot less time than the former, and IMO has both more chance of effectiveness and more basis in reality.

---

At least for now I suspect that consistent sound body mechanics eventually lead to being able to access and control the dantien, and manipulate energy, or chi, or jing, etc.

Although, thats just speculation, I dont think I am that high of level in the least, yet.

adding to my original post:

I dont see how you can teach someone how to use the dantien, and boom, they use the dantien - unless your some energy master with the ability to just touch the persons third eye and make them just as good as you or something. I can see that you can easily show someone some refined body mechanics to get more wham for your umpf, but not high level energy control....

Of course, I dont consider myself an expert on 'energy' or the non-existance, so I dont even know if I disagree with you.

[anerlich]

At least for now I suspect that consistent sound body mechanics eventually lead to being able to access and control the dantien, and manipulate energy, or chi, or jing, etc.

That's fair. I don't think you have to be able to manipulate qi, assuming that it is more than a metaphysical construct, to be able to move in an efficient and powerful fashion. But what comes first (qi/jing or sound body mechanics) is IMO crucial to the argument.

I didn't mean to imply it was trivial, only that I am a sceptic when it comes to the necessity to involve quasi-mystical forces as proposed by some.

[Mithrandir]

Red,

I am curious what you said to this gentleman that gave him the instant ability to utilize his dan tien when punching? In fact, would you mind explaining how you utilize your dan tien when generating power or drawing the energy of the dan tien into your martial movements? Please feel free to give specific details as to the physical mechanics of how to link your dan tien into your punch, kick, etc., etc..


Thanks

[S.Teebas]

...some ineffable force that requires decades of cultivation, or whether you ignore the marketingese of the neijia and put it down to sound body mechanics.


To say that it is undefinable is quite accurate to a person who has not experienced what people call 'chi' or 'qi' or 'ki' or whatever. Why? becasue it is my belief that the THING that people associate with what chi is, is merely a feeling of....(drum roll please)..... proper body mechanics!!

I mean when you think about it, body mechanics when synthesised, practiced and refined really are all about the feeling your body associates with what is proper body mechanics, when they are applied. How about you anerlich, (i know you have a strong belief in pure body mechanics over chi) but how do you know when you body is performing correctly (ie mechanically correclty)? Surely you can feel when you body is working min a mechanically sound manner?? Sure you can look in the mirror and see "Hey my shoulder is really lifting, i could optimise this by doing X...." But really refining it starts to get more intricate. Almost......internal.

So in short i think its the feeling of correct body mechanics that people associate with 'chi'. It was probably a stage where people started to use the term due to not exactly understanding what they were doing, but realising by increasing this feeling through correct alignment, that they could gain better results.

Then there is the subject of people not understanding it, and profiting on the fact that not many other people really understand it either....but thats another post altogether. (as is intent)

[anerlich]

S Teebas, I think we are in agreement.

[red5angel]

Hey guys, trust me, he didnt have instant access, but if you have begun that sort of training you have realized that part of it is a biomechanical usage of the 'center' of the body as a pivot and a lever. I did note in my original post that it took him a while to get a rudimentary idea of what I was talking about, and it was still very rudimentary, but it helped him that much more. So in effect he got a little taste, but it showed how refining that could improve his 'hitting' power immensly!
For myself I tend to imagine a sphere. This sphere is large while you are ifrst learning to use and control that energy ubt as you refine it and learn better control, it shrinks until hopefully someday it collapses in on the dantien. I am not sure yet what to make of the whole qi thing. I thnk right now I am more along the lines of S. Teebas descritpion of it.

I hadnt thought about the golf thing but of course I dont play. I am sure this could be translated to many sports. Has anyone ever looked at Pilates? They call that area of the body the 'powerhouse' and I thought it was an apt description......

[pvwingchun]

We discussed the dantien a little and I explained to him how he could generate even more power but drawing it from that area. He practiced a few times, and after sort of pulling it all together whacked the bag hard enough to make the instructor step back!
After a little discussion I doubt it.



I dont see how you can teach someone how to use the dantien, and boom, they use the dantien - unless your some energy master with the ability to just touch the persons third eye and make them just as good as you or something. I can see that you can easily show someone some refined body mechanics to get more wham for your umpf, but not high level energy control....
More likely.


Does Qi and the ability to use it exist, yes I believe it does.

Qi and the ability to use it takes time, more time equals more ability. Just learning to cultivate it and feel it takes time, then to place it where desired in the body is no easy task. Next being able to release it for the desired purpose whether martial or healing is once again not easy especially for the beginner. Although some feel it from the very beginning, they generally lack the ability to use it.

I would have to agree more with the body mechanics at this point.

[yenhoi]

Quote red5:

you have realized that part of it is a biomechanical usage of the 'center' of the body as a pivot and a lever.

--

Much better. but then:

Quote:

For myself I tend to imagine a sphere. This sphere is large while you are ifrst learning to use and control that energy ubt as you refine it and learn better control, it shrinks until hopefully someday it collapses in on the dantien. I am not sure yet what to make of the whole qi thing. I thnk right now I am more along the lines of S. Teebas descritpion of it.

--

What the hell man?

If it has to do mainly with body mechanics, using the dantien as a lever, then how do you locate it? Does it have to do with your center of gravity (located close to where you indicated)? Does it move? What happens to the dantien when your off balance or breathing hard or incorrectly?

[red5angel]

LOL! Yenhoi, didnt mean to get all mystical on you! I use the visualization as a way to describe to people I am talking to. Its hard to explain in this forum but its just a visualization tool, thats all.
On locating it, well, you can go by what you read or hear, roughly two finger widths below your navel and about 2/3 in from the front of your belly. I prefer to "find" it through practice. I still have a long way to go, in essence my sphere is still pretty large. I think however that developing good root, and good internal energy have a lot to do with refining this.
Right now I would have to say I dont believe it moves, it does have to do with your CoG, in a round about sort of way, or maybe your CoG is somehow reltaed to it.
As for breathing, I am not sure how to answer that. when I do any excersise designed to help me cultivate control over my dantien, I just breathe naturally and odnt worry too much about it.

[pvwingchun]

Red

Go find yourself a master of Qigong to help you understand, it is clear that you do not and could benefit from that guidance. Also check into the books by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming they are a great reference after you understand the basic principles.

[pvwingchun]

Also as warned by my TCM master who is also a master of Qigong do not just learn from a book as it can be dangerous to your health, learn with a master or under one knowledgeable in the art when beginning.

[red5angel]

pvwingchun, I have a few of his books and they are chock full of information. I think what you might percieve as a problem may be just a difference in belief?

[Mithrandir]

Hi Red,

I doubt very seriously if this external practitioner was able to demonstrate even rudimentary usage of his dantien. In fact, I would be very surprised indeed if you even possess the ability to truly utilize your dantien (even in minor ways) after 8 months of practice with the Taiji Sphere. People train for years on end to learn to link their dantien into their punch, kick, or movement. I would say that the "taste" this individual recieved was in reality a case of refined body mechanics---not related to usage of the dantien. It just isn't that easy.

[red5angel]

"was in reality a case of refined body mechanics"

I agree, BUT that was my point to pvwingchun. To me personally a good majority of what the whole dan tien, qi thing is is just refined body mechanics and the control thereof. Its part of why I believe anyone can get wingchun, because this stuff is attainable with some hard work.
For me I am just beginning my journey down that road and would agree with you for the most part on my skill with utilizing that energy.
This gentleman showed the most basic understanding of the body mechanics and would obviously need to work on it. The point however is not that I somehow magically showed some total stranger the ways of the dan tien, but that even at his level of 'ability' with a little adjustment, it made a big difference.

[kungfu cowboy]

What would be the defining essense of using the dantian? Is it a separate entity entirely unrelated to body mechanics, necessarily expressed through them? Is it a subtle energy (whatever that means) that overlaps the necessary mechanical part? Will it help my breakdancing?

[gnugear]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Will it help my breakdancing?

Perhaps I should start training my young son to use his dan tien more. He's having trouble doing the windmill ... seriously :)

He does the "worm" pretty good though ... that has to work the ol dan tien.

[kungfu cowboy]

LOL!:D Here's (http://www.breakdance.com/) a link to a website that I found handy for bustin' out those old skool moves I still can't do! :)

[gnugear]

LMAO!

I've seen that animation while looking over my son's shoulder. I think he already found the site!

[{i^(]

So, the point of the opening post was that, what? R5A teaches some schmuck how to do it 'the right way', ruins whatever it was the instructor was trying to teach, then the instructor backs off because said schmuck is swinging a weapon fast and sharp in an unsafe manner?

Yippee. You god.

[yenhoi]

lol

:eek:

[red5angel]

Because the point was that he had better control AND more power. Afterwards, the instructor and I talked a little about it and he seems interested in looking into it.

[{i^(]

This morning, I looked out the window and saw 2 little boys. One was showing the other how to stomp on a bunch of ants.

So, I ran out there and showed 'em both how to inch step on 'em. I was crushin' LOTS!

They were SO impressed, they ran away screaming!!!!

But I'm a wetodd.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by {i^(
This morning, I looked out the window and saw 2 little boys. One was showing the other how to stomp on a bunch of ants.

So, I ran out there and showed 'em both how to inch step on 'em. I was crushin' LOTS!

They were SO impressed, they ran away screaming!!!!

But I'm a wetodd.
Hi {i^(,

Too funny. :)

Regards from a fellow retodd,