Can PM Still Evolve...

[mantisben]

or are the Luo Guangyu (7*PM), Hao Henglu (Plum Blossom PM), Song Zide (Grand Ultimate PM), and Ding Zichengs' (6 Harmonies PM) of the PM Kung Fu world the last of the great innovators of PM Kung Fu?

[grifter721]

ofcourse there can all you need are people that respect the style and the masters of old enough to change the style. You cant have people clinging to the old regiment, nothing can grow if you stay the same. Some people focus too much and being their "master, Sifu" instead of focusing on becoming better than ther teacher.

[mantisben]

I agree with you. Still, I can't help but think that if someone tried to start a new branch of PM, possibly mixing PM with another effective method of combat that there wouldn't be an uproar in the PM community.

I wonder if the people that started their own branches of PM suffered such persecution. Possibly they did, but kicked soo much ass that the Martial Arts community was forced to acknowledge the innovation, and respect the Founder, and the new style and/or system.

Comments?

[Hau Tien]

That's one of the major things that is missing these days... the kicking ass.

Now, before I get labelled as someone who likes to fight, I simply mean that in history, if you wanted to prove your style was the best, you challenged and fought others who were considered "the best". These days, there are laws to prevent such things.

*shrug*

As for starting a new branch of Mantis... who knows? Myself, I don't plan on becoming a carbon copy of my Sifu, but I don't plan on creating my own branch, either. I hope to bring my own "flavor" to the 7* that I practice. I think that is what all great martial artists do.

Just my opinion... and I'm half watching TV right now, so forgive me if it makes no sense... hehe

[Lisa]

I definitely think it should evolve. The problem with that is that many people will tend to look at it as "watered down" or "made-up." I think this may be why someone these days wouldn't want to try to change it. If it's practical and follows the basic principles of PM kung fu, it's good PM kung fu. If someone has something useful to add to the style, it should be welcomed.

Lisa

[BeiTangLang]

I can see why LGY & WHF made the hanges they did & kept what was needed the same. No, I do not see the ability for much change in this era as there are not many people actually using the system. Inovations, creations, revisions are made by people then what they have will no longer keep them alive & needs to be changed. I do not see such a serious need so I will probrably just try to preserve what I have learned as best I can for my future students who may actually need the system as a way to stay alive & may change the system then to met _their_ needs.
Not much can change anyway in the long run if you think about it.
In short, I believe fighting style changes/inovations are products of their environments plain & simple.

[Art D]

It is al ready changing evry time someone makes it thier personal exprition. As traditionalists we hold on to the old ways the tradtions, as innovators we move on to our own way. In the chinese martial arts comunity moving on now is called basterdizing making stuff up, chop suey . but in 50 to 100 years it will be tradition. I can't make any sence of this thinking.

[GiantMantis]

If it is not broke then why try and fix it

[Lisa]

"If it is not broke then why try and fix it"

It's not about it being "broke." I think it just has more to do with making the style more complete. If my instructor wanted to teach me something to better deal with groundfighting for example, I would not be opposed to learning it, even if it was not traditionally a part of the PM system.

"In the chinese martial arts comunity moving on now is called basterdizing making stuff up, chop suey . but in 50 to 100 years it will be tradition. I can't make any sence of this thinking."

Yeah, I see what you're saying. The way I look at it, all kung fu was made up at some point. I think people have a hard time trusting anything that was added to any system recently because you get people like GM Simon who take something that isn't kung fu, call it kung fu, then make a bunch of money off people who don't know any better.

Lisa

[Art D]

If it is not broke then why try and fix it Was it ever broke when it evolved? It is not a object it is an art. The tao is change whether we like it or not. To stay the same is agenst nature. And to the point of we don't need to adapt becuse where not a fighting culture , come on look at crime , home invasions , rape, road rage
. Ever think about uo , luo sao to a head grab out your car window then stomp on the gas. Is this not our eviorment today

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Art D
Ever think about uo , luo sao to a head grab out your car window then stomp on the gas.
This is what I call Practical Creativity!!:D

Thanks for the application Art!

[mantis108]

People go into martial arts for all kinds of reasons. The demography is much more diverse than even just a hundred years ago. Of all those people who take up MA, their intentions and their expectations are vastly different not to mention their attributes are no way near the same. So their attainments are all different. Most would drop out with 2-3 years. Those who stayed are really of our concern here. A small number of these "survivers" will push themselves and their original systems to the limit. These people (may be 5 % of the survivers) are usually driven by 2 dynamics - dream and passion. Most of the time there are a mixture of the both dream and passion in an unevent percentage mix (60-40). What happen to the 95% of the survivers? Most of the time they vote the other 5% out Or they vote themself out of the game unknowingly. ;) So we don't worry about them for now. The 3% of the 5 % are those who become lineage holders or keepers of the traditions (passionate in maintaining the sand castle ) or creator of "improved" system (passionate in polishing the mirror). The final 2% are those who dare to dream hard (of course with a lot of passion to excel). These people invent and create. They travel the undiscovered countries to fulfill the true meaning of being human.

Praying Mantis is like the fountain for all. How much and how refreshing is of your mind.

Mantis108

[Mantis9]

Praying Mantis tradition is like the box. You know, one of those boxes that everyone is attempting to "think outside of." Wong Long built the PM box; each succeeding generation learned inside the box; then followed up with an innovation (aka "thinking outside the box.")

I'm still finding the borders of that box, simply because of my stage in development, compounded by the depth of talented PM masters that have already provided innovation upon innovation.:) The box has been growing for many generations, so its a timely search.

Perhaps, I won't be one of the small percentage of practitioners that revolutionize PM, but I confident there will be those that will.

Then again, Praying Mantis is an inspirational style, maybe I will add an innovation of my own.;)

Hah hah haaa!:p I such a comedian.

[mantisben]

I'll try different PM techniques to see if there is an application different from the obvious. I keep these techniques to myself. I'll try it out on one of my elder classmates (with their permission of course) just to see if it would work or not. Sometimes it works great, sometimes they need to revive me with smelling salt.:D

I believe ALL PM techniques are effective for combat, but I don't believe that ALL PM techniques are TAUGHT to be effective in combat. Either because the "Masters" don't want it to be known for their own reasons, or because a "Master" DOESN'T know how to apply it politically and gained his title "Master" because he is respected "politically" (nothing wrong with that, by the way).

Call me impatient, but I don't want to wait until I'm 64 years old to discover the REAL way to apply a PM throwing technique or a PM locking technique.

Although I may not sound like one, I consider myself a traditionalist, and according to PM tradition, PM creators "screened" 18 different styles, absorbed the combat techniques that they felt were effective for combat, and flushed the rest... They didn't absorb 18 different styles. They absorbed the "BEST" of the 18 different styles.

I'll bet that there were some masters that said "don't get rid of this technique. It is very useful. It has been in the <one of the18 styles> style since the beginning. And either Wang Lang, or whoever had authority to say "yes, we'll absorb it" or "no, it can stay in <one of the 18 styles>, thank you", accepted it or rejected it. I am absolutely sure some of the masters said "you don't think this is practical? Let me try it out to see if it is effective or not.". Some of them proved it was effective, some of them didn't prove it was effective.

I'd like to note that I could prove none of this historically. But knowing what little I know about the times in China, if someone called themselves "Masters" they soon had to prove it. Often they had to prove it on a regular basis. Not at all like to day, where people can refer to themselves as a "Master" of Kung-Fu and not prove it.

Absorb what is useful (Said Bruce Lee). All PM techniques are useful, but so is Jiu-Jitsu, Aikido, Wing-Chun, Judo, Tong Bei, Tiger Claw, Choy Lay Fut, and even Tae Kwon Do (if you kick like He IL Cho). And any other style I left out.

I have alot more to say about the evolution of PM but this post is waaay to long.

Lots of Respect to One And All!!!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

"PM creators "screened" 18 different styles, absorbed the combat techniques that they felt were effective for combat, and flushed the rest... They didn't absorb 18 different styles. They absorbed the "BEST" of the 18 different styles"

There is no universal 'best' fighting techniques. If there were there would only be one fighting system today. What I consider 'the best' fighting techniques of one style might not be what you consider 'the best'. Each creator took what he liked and what worked for himself and formed a martial arts style. It's been done time after time and will continue to be done today and in the future. As more material is added (from 'the best' of others) to an existing art it will eventually grow to the point where someone extracts 'the best' and forms a new one. Where does it end?

[Art D]

Hua Lin excelant points . the on going R&D of a MAist lead all to explore other things to ? what they are doing and to evole as new insight is gained. one of the areas that I find myself going is the greater intergration of internal training into the mix that I teach , than what was presented to me. As wellas a more practical hands on useage , althoe that may just have been WL's evolution to it's presant day forms oriented training, I rember that it was not always that way. This not to say that IMO it has always beem very froms oriented, may be to much so IMO.

[BeiTangLang]

Yes,..to the forms point I must agree with you. Its hard for me to imagine the quantity of form has doubled,tripled, quadroupled & even more in just 2-3 generations. Hard for me to imagine that much innovation in so short of a time. But as artd says,..its all IMHO.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
[B...Where does it end? [/B]

Thank-you for your post Hua Lin Laoshi. I believe it never ends.

Here is a question for all -- what is change ? That is to say we all agree that to survive MA systems must change, evolve, adapt.

In your opinion then, what constitutes change ?

thx in advance,
UM.

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by mantisben
Although I may not sound like one, I consider myself a traditionalist, and according to PM tradition, PM creators "screened" 18 different styles, absorbed the combat techniques that they felt were effective for combat, and flushed the rest... They didn't absorb 18 different styles. They absorbed the "BEST" of the 18 different styles.


First, in response to this, there have been many many discussions on the 18 Styles poem and the story about the style's origins. As I understand it and I am certainly not an authority, the poem suggests to me that there were certain techniques attributed to specific people. For example, the ngau, lou, choi of Lau Hing; the kwan lau goon yee of Tahm Fong... So Wong Long took these techniques and incorporated them into the Praying Mantis system he was developing, finding them useful and complementary with his theories and concepts. The Poem also says that the style is predominantly made up of Tai Jo Cheung Kuen and Tong Bei Cheung Kuen.

So while the latter two certainly may have been "screened" or filtered for techniques that would make up the foundation for the PM style, I think the other styles that make up the System are in some way an exaggeration. Wong Long took the ngau, lau, choi technique of Lau Hing. That becomes one style's addition to the Praying Mantis System. It is not stated that there is anything else from Lau Hing in the System so for now, we assume that this is all. I think the history and the poem gives credit for the techniques to others in a way of memorializing or honoring them.

On the discussion of PM evolving, I think this is a very tricky and subjective topic because what one person considers an improvement another might call incorrect. I certainly believe there can be variations in flavor or fighting style. This is just personal preference and in that regard, those differences are minor. I also believe that variations in applications of techniques is indeed necessary for adaptability to different situations. I am a traditionalist though and I strongly believe that while variations are fine, they should not stray too far from the origin. I have seen some vastly differing interpretations of techniques that to me, frankly just tell me that the person does not understand the original intent of that technique. There are times when you can force a round peg into a square hole but it is not the most efficient use of either nor is it very logical to do so.

I think that PM can evolve in other ways. How an instructor teaches in today's society can not be the same way it was taught even a few generations ago. It is simply not the same demographics or culture anymore. Today's sifu can not teach and discipline students like they did in HK or China 100 or even 50 years ago. Here is where I have seen how the style has evolved. I have watched and experienced how my Sifu's teaching method has changed, modified, evolved over the years. This style is not easily taught or learnt. It requires so much coordination of the entire body that not everyone can easily understand or perform the movements. But my Sifu has made it his goal, to teach everyone he accepts into the school. To find ways to break down the movements so that it is easier to learn. To explain it such that people can understand. This is not the traditional way of teaching but it retains the authenticity and integrity of the style. At the same time, allows more people to learn and understand it as well.

As for adding to the style, I think each generation, each instructor is bound to add something. Be it a technique borrowed from another system or a form borrowed from another style. It is not wrong or incorrect so long as everything is kept honest about what is what. I am strongly against adding something from another style and then claiming that it is traditional or authentic to the PM system. This I believe is dishonest and disrespectful. Our school teaches non-PM forms such as Gung Lik Kuen. Forms from the Jing Mo Association. We do not claim them as geunine PM forms. When they are taught, it is explained where these froms came from and why we choose to teach them. This I believe is the correct way to add things to your curriculum.

YM

[flem]

artd and lisa combined make the most sense. it is changing it has to be- but as was mentioned by someone else? thers no more ass kicking. so if our adaptations are to please/wow crowds then it is a bad thing and if it changes only on a theoretical untested basis it is also bad. we need to come as close as practical to real tests of techs before any changes are made

[MightyB]

Don't worry so much about changing the system and becomming some kind've great innovator. It takes long enough to learn as it is. But, you can change it for yourself.

You say there's no more ass kicking. Way wrong. San Shou, Shidokan, MMA events. I know what you all will say. "Those events have rules" you'll cry. Believe me, if you start fighting in San Shou, you'll be happy and glad that there are rules. I don't even want to think about what a free for all MMA/NHB event feels like.

I can tell you what happened to my interpretation of 7* after my first San Shou fight. Maybe 75% of the hand techniques work, but I was maybe able to execute 15% of them effectively (and I'm being generous). Mantis throwing techniques-- way lacking for effective free fighting. You have to study Judo or Shuai Jou to get more usefull throws. Mantis kicking isn't too bad, but you have to build leg endurance and the Thai round kick (and shins). Western boxing needs to be incorporated into the system-- need to get the head moving, bob and weave, basic defensive shell, and offensive combination mentality. The monkey footwork of 7* is right on. If you practice it (7* footwork) hard and get yourself really nimble, it works great.

The above is some of my interpretation of what works and doesn't work in mantis and what modifications need to be made to make it better. Am I going to change to system? Heck no. Do any of you agree with my interpretations? Again, Heck no. But that doesn't matter because I don't want to change the system, I just want to make it better for me. I'm greedy that way.

You guys can do your own fighting and make it better for yourselves.

[Art D]

San shao is SPORT ! Not combat . yes a tough sport but a sport.

[Art D]

I just read this again . What is this precived lack of ofensive combinations?

[MightyB]

Remember that these are just my opinions for myself. I'm not trying to change the system or say that PM is lacking anything because it's not.

But, for me, I felt too defensive in free fighting/San Shou. What I mean by "offensive combination strategy like a boxer" is exactly that. It's taking the lead in an engagement. Not waiting for him to punch or kick to work defensively off of their movements, but throwing offensive combinations to open holes. For example, Using a left footed lead, throw a left jab followed by a left hook followed by a left round kick to the opponents thigh. The first two will probably be defended but the kick should land-- Like a boxer uses jabs to open holes.

[MightyB]

Yes San Shou is a sport but it was created to give martial artists an environment where they could test their skills in an unrestricted manner. It's not quite no holds barred MMA, but it's a safe alternative. It is intended for those people who complain that you can't challenge people to fights in the old way. You can do that in San Shou, you just have to be able to leave your ego and any pre-conceived notions outside of the ring. Reality bites, but it's a good experience to have if you're truly interested in becomming a complete martial artist. I lost to somebody with only a year of training. I have 9. He trained to fight from day one. Like I said, reality bites, but now I'm a completely different martial artist. There's very little BS in my personal interpretation of 7*. I have no room for kung fu fantasy and overly complicated defensive strategies. That's just me. But I had to learn the hard way by getting my bell rung. I'll continue to fight in San Shou matches for as long as I can. I'm getting old now for a fighter (28) and I wish I'd started fighting long ago but I was scared. But who isn't scared to fight?

[mantisben]

But, for me, I felt too defensive in free fighting/San Shou. What I mean by "offensive combination strategy like a boxer" is exactly that. It's taking the lead in an engagement. Not waiting for him to punch or kick to work defensively off of their movements, but throwing offensive combinations to open holes.

This is EXACTLY what I mean about PM being taught nowadays. PM wasn't created as a defensive style. The PM style is known for being AGGRESSIVE . If a PM practicioner is only using PM techniques when they are being attacked, then they're either not being taught PM fighting correctly, or still have alot to learn about PM "fighting". Not fighting but PM fighting.

Some PM instructors don't know how to apply PM techniques "agressively". Some just chose not to teach PM fighting right away. Some don't teach PM fighting soon enough. I know I wanted to learn PM fighting right away, but I wasn't ready for it.

The PM style is also known for attacking with combinations. If a PM practicioner lands a strike "right on the button", and you don't try to follow through with at least 2 more strikes (either hand or foot strikes), then that PM fighter is missing something.

To me, the aggressive application of attack combinations within PM are some of the most exciting discoveries I've made.

I don't know alot about PM, but one thing I do know, and that is the techniques of PM are aggressive and effective for combat. Whether I know how to apply them, or not.

These opinions are totally my own, and quite possibly WAAAY of the mark. I accept any sincere correction I have coming to me. :D

[Mantis9]

PM is aggressive. IMO, the common element between MightyB and mantisben is ting jing. When two opposing forces find themselves connected or "bridged," one can feel the intent of the other. At this point, aggressive intent and awareness to your opponents intent become clear simultenously.

The evidence is found in PM form and technique applications. Rarely, though very possible, I find a technique used without attachment between you and your partner. Also, counters and defensive movement to application rely heavily on this attachment as well. This lends itself intuitively to ting jing. I think this is very self evident to anyone who is evolved with PM for any good amount of time.

I can certainly understand why you, MightyB, see boxing taking the lead in engagement over mantis. In my experience, boxing application excels without this connection. In fact, for adept boxers with quick hands, attachment of any kind would almost be a hindrance. They are effectively "tied up."

However, I believe mantisben is right to say PM is aggressive. So, the question becomes how does a PM practitioner operate without ting jing or aggressively aqcuire this favorable position?

Mantis9

[Tainan Mantis]

MightyB,
One of your posts mentioned PM throws...

PM consists of one throw after another.
They are based on strikes which are applied in conjunction with the throw and also as a way to start the throw.

In sporting competitions of judo it is not permitted to use punches as a means to a throw.
On the good side of their randori training it is extremely aggressive and students must put in 100% or they get slammed.(actually you get slammed anyway).

In PM it is more difficult to learn the method as you must put in 100% in the preceding strike which is more painful. Eg; elbow to the neck, grab the throat etc...

The beginning stage in PM throws is Kaoda. The same Kao as the 12th character of the 12 character formula in 7* PM

[flem]

yes,san shau is sport, but is a step up from conventional sparring. the good part of it lies not in the competition but the conditioning to prepare for it. we incorported full contact because my class situation allowed it- everyone was tight there was no lawsuit worries. instead of rules though, we just went at it like regular sparring with along with sensitvity drills and sparring w/out gloves it has proven indespensable- just knowing how to take a punch is something most people don't experience until its the real thing and possibly too late.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Mantis9
...how does a PM practitioner operate without ting jing or aggressively aqcuire this favorable position?

Mantis9
I feel comfortable "monkey stepping" in behind a strong and quick jab. "Checking" the opponents lead-hand and striking with the other also works for me sometimes. But if my opponent moves his hands like a western boxer, it is more difficult to "check" or get a grip on that lead-hand.

Still, PM techniques (in my fighting experience, which I don't think is as extensive as MightyB's fighting experience) are best used once you get into the mid to close range.

I don't know what "ting jing" is, but if it is anything like sensitivity, I can't "operate" in a fight without it. Well, actually, I can. But then I'll be fighting like a western boxer, and not a PM fighter. In that case, revive me with smelling salt, I'm gonna need it. :D

[Ye Gor]

MightyB, thank you for the honest and candid 'reality check' to all the theoreticians here.

Martial arts are MARTIAL first. Long/painful horse stance training is one thing, and shin conditioning is another, but real fighting is THE thing.

Sanshou may be a sport, but it's 100% more like the real thing than any tournament sparring. (And tournament sparring usually looks like brawling, anyway).

Mantis may be the balls of all MAs, but how do we know that? Theory is only that. (Even in science, a theory is nothing until proven with experiment.) I posted before the following question: "if PM is so great, why no PM fighter get into the ring and just clean up?". Someone replied that a so-and-so did that. Well, I went to the trouble of looking it up. True, so-and-so did fight. He won once and got beaten several times after that. Doesn't sound like anything superior to anything else.

Why doesn't some PM guy put his money where his mouth is and get in the ring? I bet he'll get beaten badly. AS ANY OTHER TRADITIONAL MA GUY. Because traditional MA guys don't realy fight in practice.

(1) You can not do something WELL if you don't practice it A LOT. All MArtists know that (gets drilled into us daily), but when it comes to real fighting, for some reason the general attitude is: (2)well, we'll just practice drills and then carry it over to a real fight. What a contradiction between (1) and (2)! How can you learn how to fight using PM, if you do not fight using PM? (or any other style)

If there are schools that practice real fighting (with proper technique!), why don't they dominate the fighting circuit? Or even win one tournament?

I make this fuss because I think true MA is dying. Like I said above, traditional MA schools don't really fight (for whatever reasons). The main reason (in my opinion) is that it's too dangerous to apply full speed+power with impact techniques (punch, kick... the usual kung fu stuff). But in wrestling, (push, pull) it's much easier to do that without injury. (You can't really tap out of a poke to the eye or a punch to the nose, eh?) After all, bjj/judo schools also have to deal with the reality of law suits...

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Ye Gor
I posted before the following question: "if PM is so great, why no PM fighter get into the ring and just clean up?"
(snip)
Why doesn't some PM guy put his money where his mouth is and get in the ring?
(snip)
If there are schools that practice real fighting (with proper technique!), why don't they dominate the fighting circuit? Or even win one tournament?
(snip)


I started practicing PM when I was about 15 years old. I didn't go into it to prove PM is good for fighting, or even get in shape. I went into PM to learn how to fight.

I was bullied severely when I was younger, and I was fed up with going home crying. I was once tied to a fence with belts and had firecrackers thrown at my feet. Other times, the abuse was more severe.
After about 1 year of training in PM diligently, I kicked a$$ and people stopped bullying me. That was the easy part.

I hit my late teens, early 20s' and went from being bullied to being "challenged". I've fought boxers, street fighters, martial artists (at least they claimed to be), and lotsa folks just out of prison, strong and aggressive from lack of sex. I wish I could say I'm undefeated, but that would be a big, fat, lie.

I WILL say that if it wasn't for PM Kung Fu, I wouldn't have been as comfortable or as effective in these combat situations as I was. I was born and raised on the Lower East Side of Manhattan which is a tough neighborhood, period.

I am forever grateful to my Sifu for accepting me as a student and teaching me PM because I was able to fight in the streets of NYC and not get hurt seriously.

If a person wants to prove superiority and combat ability in a NHB fight or tournament, more power to them. As for me, I'm content with being comfortable and able to defend myself on the "J" train as I ride it through Brooklyn. :cool:

Peace...

P.S.:
I WOULD get my but kicked in a tournament.