Sil Lum Tao 1St Form

[Mr. Bao]

Wing Chun is famous for its unique chi sao exercises, techniques, and combative ideas. But I think it would help to explain to the novice the basic concepts of Sil Lum Tao since it is our first form. Plus, I would like to know how other family member view Sil Lum Tao.

What is Sil Lum Tao?

Where did it come from?

When was it created?

What is the function of this form?

What are the misunderstandings of Sil Lum Tao?

What are the main ideas of Sil Lum Tao?

What is the difference of poor and excellent sil lum tao form?





Bao

[Wingman]

What is Sil Lum Tao?

Little Idea Form. SLT is a dictionary of the Wing Chun tool/techniques. Like the dictionary, it gives the meaning of the WC techniques.

Where did it come from?

Maybe it was developed by the opera performers in the Red Junk.

When was it created?

IMHO, it was developed later. Maybe it was created during the time of the Red Junk.

What is the function of this form?

Like a pocket dictionary, it can be used as a quick reference to WC techniques, thereby giving you a "little idea" of what is WC.

What are the misunderstandings of Sil Lum Tao?

Many people think that SLT is like a "kata" in Japanese MA. The first time they see it, they are baffled because it doesn't seem to have much fighting application. In Japanese "kata", it is very easy to see the application of the form.

What are the main ideas of Sil Lum Tao?

The main idea of SLT are the basics of WC. These are the stance, root, centerline, gates, structure, etc.

What is the difference of poor and excellent sil lum tao form?

There are many variations of SLT. Each lineage have a slightly different way of doing SLT. I think all variations of SLT should have a solid root in their stance. If you are easily off-balanced when someone pushes you while doing SLT, then thats not good SLT. Therefore, not good WC.

These are just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Mr. Bao
Wing Chun is famous for its unique chi sao exercises, techniques, and combative ideas. But I think it would help to explain to the novice the basic concepts of Sil Lum Tao since it is our first form.

I agree with you up to here. I think it would help to explain Sil Nim Tao to a novice. :) I suppose after we all give our points of view, you will leap in and enlighten us. My comments contain my approximations of the Cantonese as I render it. My lineage is YM > Leung Sheung > Ken Chung > Ben Der.


Plus, I would like to know how other family member view Sil Lum Tao.
It's fundamental to the practice of Yip Man Wing Chun.


What is Sil Lum Tao?
"Sil Nim Tao." :) The set taught first in Yip Man Wing Chun, although it was not necessarily developed first.


Where did it come from?
There are two possibilities as I see it. One, somewhere up in the sky, or down in the Earth, or in a volcano---any inaccessible place---Minneapolis, maybe---there were old men in nightshirts who knew everything and were all powerful, and created everything, and rewarded and punished, and they could be bribed. They created a new tong and quantum physics and with the flick of a wand, wallah, Wing Chun was created with all sorts of slick hidden meanings.

Or, Sil Nim Tao was the creation of good Wing Chun artists over generations who managed to incorporate numerous open "secrets" into its practice resulting in the development of such attributes in its practitioners as niem lek and rootedness.


When was it created?
I'd guess by Yip Man's predecessor or predessors.
Right after breakfast, but before second breakfast. Sort of 10ish, by my reckoning.

What is the function of this form?
To teach patience, relaxation, keem yeung ma structure and root, develop an idea of chung seen (centerline), junk (elbow) lak and also develop the aforementioned attribute of niem lik.


What are the misunderstandings of Sil Lum Tao?

Do you mean mistakes? Chung tao (head down), fai jung (elbow out), choke qiu (elbow collapsed), chin fung mai (weight on forward foot), chung sun (leaning body forward), ngow lay (biting your own tongue). What are on your list?


What are the main ideas of Sil Lum Tao?
My answer borrows entirely from Dr. Jack Ling, Leung Sheung's student, REFLECTIONS ON POPULAR NOTIONS OF WING CHUN KUEN

http://www.stanford.edu/group/wingchun/articles.html

* Turn in (Keem) the knees (Sut )(with feet turned inward accordingly);
* Drop (Lok) knee-in stance (Ma) as low as possible without changing posture ;
* Keep head up (Tao) and level with eyes (Ng'an) pointing forward (Mong Tseen);
*Keep back (Eue) straight (Tingh) or Tingh Eue;
* Keep elbow (Zhang) turned in (Mai) or Mai Zhang as much as possible (with arm perpendicular to the center line);
* Keep elbow in front and away from the body about the width of a rounded fist (Tseung Kui Ma or Long Bridge Stance);
* Keep extended, arm (Tan Sau) "relaxed" (Fong Song) and "flat" (Ping), parallel to the ground (my language);
* Relax or ease (Song) shoulder (Bok) muscles, keeping shoulders natural (not lifting in any way);
* Practice Under (Dai) Elbow (Zhang) Strength (Lik) or Zhang Dai Lik; and
* Relax breathing, and sink (Tsum) breath (Hay) i.e. don't hold breath or hyperventilate, breathe with diaphragm


What is the difference of poor and excellent sil lum tao form?

Good does it right. Poor includes many errors.

Ok, Bao, now it's your turn.

Regards,

[Mr. Bao]

John,

Greetings. Please don't think I will try to "enlighten" you after you explained Sil Lum Tao. I have too much pride, class, and self respect to insult anyone here.

Besides I am learning from everyone and while we may not agree on some points. It doesn't mean we can't be respectful and decent to each other.

I opened up this tread because people were asking meaningless questions that bored me. So I thought this question was for more entertaining and can be potentially be more enlightening.

Bao

[Martial Joe]

SLT is the first form and the base of all wing chun...that all I feel like saying.

[kungfu cowboy]

I had red junk once. Doctor cleared it right up, thank you sweet spirits.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Mr. Bao
John,

Greetings. Please don't think I will try to "enlighten" you after you explained Sil Lum Tao. I have too much pride, class, and self respect to insult anyone here.

Hi Mr. Bao,

Fine. But what're your answers to your question? I found some of the questions unclear. Did I get the answers right?

I would have thought that my rather extensive answer would prompt some further discussion. Or am I the only one so inclined?

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Thanks for your post and the notes of Jack Ling on the subject.
I can relate to most of it though one or two differences in operational maenings are likely to emerge. Chiefly, on how far in exactly the knees sink. There seems to be some difference between Yip Man's first wave of students including Leung Shung
and the second wave including Ho Kam Ming. You mentioned no weight on the front leg. In slt there is no front leg. It is 50-50.
I also think that the development of the slt is not the first thing
that happened. In the evolution of disciplined knowledge textbooks come after some experience and experimentation with the subject matter which with reflection and analysis becomes the stuff of textbooks. The slt is the basic textbook of wing chun...
one never outgrows it. But the notes grow. Learning other forms and things in wing chun simply empowers the slt more...thus the proper development of bil jee gives new meaning to the biu sao in the slt. Same for the tuit sao in the chum kiu and the slt.Cheers. Without going to Heraclitus you never quite do the same slt twice.One should learn something each time. Joy

[yuanfen]

Sorry for key-ing errors- gotta go and actually do the slt with students. Yuanfen

[John Weiland]

Hi Joy,

Originally posted by yuanfen
Thanks for your post and the notes of Jack Ling on the subject.
I can relate to most of it though one or two differences in operational maenings are likely to emerge. Chiefly, on how far in exactly the knees sink.

Yes, we do some things differently from each other in our respective lineages.


There seems to be some difference between Yip Man's first wave of students including Leung Shung and the second wave including Ho Kam Ming.
This would make an interesting thread, but would probably be unresolvable in that not all forum inputs would be equally historically valid.


You mentioned no weight on the front leg. In slt there is no front leg. It is 50-50.
My mistake. I was simply listing possible mistakes from my growing reportoire and got carried away. Chin fung mai (weight on forward foot) is not relevent to Sil Nim Tao as you noted.


I also think that the development of the slt is not the first thing
that happened. In the evolution of disciplined knowledge textbooks come after some experience and experimentation with the subject matter which with reflection and analysis becomes the stuff of textbooks. The slt is the basic textbook of wing chun...
one never outgrows it. But the notes grow. Learning other forms and things in wing chun simply empowers the slt more...thus the proper development of bil jee gives new meaning to the biu sao in the slt. Same for the tuit sao in the chum kiu and the slt.

Yes, agreed. This is along the idea of what I was trying to express re SNT/SLT, but you said it better. :)


Cheers. Without going to Heraclitus you never quite do the same slt twice.One should learn something each time. Joy
That's just one more point of agreement. We'll have to argue over something sometime like the proper ingredients of chili con carne. :)

[yuanfen]

John W sez:

That's just one more point of agreement. We'll have to argue over something sometime like the proper ingredients of chili con carne.
-------------------------------------------------------------
The best chili(the pepper) in the US is grown around Hatch, New Mexico with
research by one particular person of japanese American ancestry at nearby Mew mexico State University having developed some new interesting strains(He has his name on the patents). The Pueblo Indians of New mexico make
an interestung chili without the carne- you eat it with Pueblo
outdoor beehive oven made bread. Texas chili is sub par(duck Joy), California is still waiting for the Westward expansion and the manifest destiny of chili( duck again Joy, biu jee sam pai fat).
Yuanfen

[reneritchie]

Hi Bao,

> What is Sil Lum Tao?

Siu Lien Tao (Little First Training), nowadays mostly referred to as Siu Nim Tao (Little Idea), and increasingly rendered in the more Hong Kong style of Siu Lim Tao, is the first Kuen To (Boxing Set) taught in most WCK lineages.

> Where did it come from?

IMHO, it came from a rather revolutionary change in the way martial arts were taught, taking long strings of emulated and often repetitive movements, decomposing them into unique tokens, and then indexing them in a manner that forces not only progression in training but in thinking as well.

> When was it created?

IMHO, sometime during the Red Junk period, perhaps a little before (mid 19th century).

> What is the function of this form?

It teaches knowledge of self - of path, power, and precision. It shows how to align the body from the development of root to the instinctualization of limb positions that remain optimal even under stress. It shows how to be still and how to move while sinking the breathing and stabalizing the breath. It shows the ideal ways to move through the various specific reference positions. It develops the ability to move power to the various specific points and to change and alter it enroute. And it goes on. In general, it builds the foundation upon which the art (hopefully) will one day stand.

> What are the misunderstandings of Sil Lum Tao?

That it is just another set, like the sets that predated it.

> What are the main ideas of Sil Lum Tao?

To begin both the training and the thought that will one day transcend it.

> What is the difference of poor and excellent sil lum tao form?

They say both god, and the devil, are in the details.

Just my 2cents,

RR

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by yuanfen
John W sez:

That's just one more point of agreement. We'll have to argue over something sometime like the proper ingredients of chili con carne.
-------------------------------------------------------------
The best chili(the pepper) in the US is grown around Hatch, New Mexico with
research by one particular person of japanese American ancestry at nearby Mew mexico State University having developed some new interesting strains(He has his name on the patents). The Pueblo Indians of New mexico make
an interestung chili without the carne- you eat it with Pueblo
outdoor beehive oven made bread. Texas chili is sub par(duck Joy), California is still waiting for the Westward expansion and the manifest destiny of chili( duck again Joy, biu jee sam pai fat).
Yuanfen
Hi Joy,
I hear some in Texas sometimes put BEANS in their chili. But that's NOT the fault of ALL Texas. My chili con carne is just tomato sauce, jalapeno peppers, braised meat, chi, garlic AND onions, and various seasonings, simmered for hours while doing keem yeung ma. :)

Regards,

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Mr. Bao




What is Sil Lum Tao?


Siu Lien Tao means the essense of training in details. HS



Where did it come from?


It is a combination of White Crane Wing Chun of Fujien and Ermei 12 post in Goldern Summit of Ermei Mt. HS





When was it created?

Around mid of 1700. HS




What is the function of this form?

This form was divided into two parts
The snake and the Crane.............. HS





What are the misunderstandings of Sil Lum Tao?

Created from Shao Lin ... wing Chun tong..,
Created by Tan Sau Ng,
Tan Sau is THE core. ...
Created or A modified version of other " self-claim to be older WCK system".


Siu Lien Tau is the begining set
Siu Niem Tau is the advnace set.....

used The term Little idea as the name. HS





What are the main ideas of Sil Lum Tao?

the essense of training in details. HS






What is the poor sil lum tao form?

Adding of unrelated kicking,

Doing Tan Sau higher then eyes... Hand action raised to the forehead....disturb the heck out the natural energy flow.

Standing there like a wooden dummy only moving one's hand..... HS


Belive it or not. My two cents.

[S.Teebas]

This form was divided into two parts
The snake and the Crane.............. HS


Is this Yip man linage SNT you're talking about?

Care to expand on this statment...sounds interesting.

[mun hung]

siu nim tao - "the little idea/imagination" The alphabet of our style.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


Is this Yip man linage SNT you're talking about?

Care to expand on this statment...sounds interesting.


" Snake and the Crane" are the layman term which has spread in the past and is still spreading in ASIA. Check other chinese language forum. ....

As it was said,
It applies to every Ng. Mui and Miau Sun related lineage.
it also is a key to open the door to the theme of SLT.




But, it does not applied to the WCK with the Ancestor such as Tan Sau Ng or ChiSim. Since the core idea is totally different.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by mun hung
siu nim tao - "the little idea/imagination" The alphabet of our style.

From Chinese language and common sense point of view.
Not even getting into who created that name and what is the tradition or language mispronounciantion.....

Ancient Chinese are very carefull about naming.
Name has to completelely tell the theme of the set or the characteristics of the set.

The set is about "details" in the realm of mind/Qi/body.
with the master of these "details" one can transform....
"the little idea/imagination" term can only cover the realm of mind.


The term Siu Nim Tao is not an adequate term for the naming of the set. Since Without Qi/Body, mind itself can only "imagination".


Thus, "the little idea/imagination" can be used by some sifu's while teaching thier student/students to emphasis pay attention to thier mind's action.

But, it doesn't make sense to be the name given by the creator of the set. Because it doesn't completely tell what the set is about.


while, Siu Lien Tao means the essense of training in details (Small).
This "details" cover the realm of Mind/Qi/body.

[Rolling_Hand]

--As it was said,
It applies to every Ng. Mui and Miau Sun related lineage.
it also is a key to open the door to the theme of SLT. --HD

**Some lips = Eggheads???
You have nothing to lose but your yorks--RH

--But, it does not applied to the WCK with the Ancestor such as Tan Sau Ng or ChiSim. Since the core idea is totally different.--HD

**Do not always assume that the others have intelligence equal to yours. They may have more.--RH

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
--As it was said,
It applies to every Ng. Mui and Miau Sun related lineage.
it also is a key to open the door to the theme of SLT. --HD

**Some lips = Eggheads???
You have nothing to lose but your yorks--RH

--But, it does not applied to the WCK with the Ancestor such as Tan Sau Ng or ChiSim. Since the core idea is totally different.--HD

**Do not always assume that the others have intelligence equal to yours. They may have more.--RH

Anyone else worried about "losing their yorks"? Are you really Rhed5Hangel?

[Rolling_Hand]

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone else worried about "losing their yorks"? Are you really Rhed5Hangel?--from John Weiland
---------------------------------------------------------------

John Wayne - Where's your horse?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
--As it was said,
It applies to every Ng. Mui and Miau Sun related lineage.
it also is a key to open the door to the theme of SLT. --HD

**Some lips = Eggheads???
You have nothing to lose but your yorks--RH

--But, it does not applied to the WCK with the Ancestor such as Tan Sau Ng or ChiSim. Since the core idea is totally different.--HD

**Do not always assume that the others have intelligence equal to yours. They may have more.--RH



Thank you for your sharing of your frustration on cannot accept the facts in the past.

Facts in the past have nothing to do with who and who or who's intelligent.


Amitaba Buddha
The sea of Suffering is unlimited.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Thank you for your sharing of your frustration on cannot accept the facts in the past.

Facts in the past have nothing to do with who and who or who's intelligent.

Amitaba Buddha
The sea of Suffering is unlimited.
Hi Hendrik,

This thread has certainly suffered. :rolleyes:

Regards,

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by John Weiland

Hi Hendrik,

This thread has certainly suffered. :rolleyes:

Regards,


Certainly,


Suffering is ----
With massive discussion in the Asia forum these days, it has made those type of people looks like closing one's ears and stealing the rang bell. Keep fantasy.

Suffering is -----
that one can't answer the simple Questions:
What, Who, When, How.
How can one beat something with nothing?



Amitaba Buddha, rest in peace.

[jesper]

"What are the misunderstandings of Sil Lum Tao? "


That there is only one correct way to perform SLM :)