Lohan Chuan (Buddhist Fist)

[wushu chik]

I am wondering if knows what version of Lohan this is. I believe it is the same version that Sifu Kam Yuen teaches in his school, Shaolin West. Would anyone by any chance have the lyrics to this...or anymore information????? I would totally appreciate it...

Thanks in advance...

~Wen~

I added NorthernShaolin to the thread title becuase everyone would like to ask him for the info! Thank you in advance!

[joedoe]

I'm sure some of the SD people would know :D

[buddhapalm]

Ask NorthernShaolin,
He will have all the answers you need.

Shaolin Do has nothing to do with the Northern Shaolin Lohan Moon sect of Sun Yu Fung and his martial ancestors. I know little of Kam Yuen, but his Lohan lineage comes from some serious players.

I could explain a little, but for a complete answer you should ask member NorthernShaolin.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[wushu chik]

Is there any way you can help me with this? I would really truly appreciate it! Thank you very much!

~Wen~

[Tainan Mantis]

Kam Yuen does 7* PM as well as Taiji PM.
It seems likely that he does the same Lohan form that I do.
Actually I know three Lohan forms.

One is specific to PM at this time, but may be much older. It is performed in one location and takes about 10 minutes to complete.
There is an unpublished book from 1764 that details it.
It was also written about by Huang Hanhsun the famous 7* PM master.
Jon Funk published a video on it, but it only includes the beginning moves.

The second version is newer most likely. It includes a two man form and also has books published on it. It takes about 30 seconds to complete. It is similar to Northern Longfist forms like PM and Eagleclaw.

The third and rarest version(that I know of) is not done as a solo form, but is the Northern Lohan method of teaching fighting. It is a series of two man exercises that can be strung together into one long two man form.

In trying to find details and other lineages that do my threeversions I have discovered that there are other schools which use the same name, but seem to be unrelated in content.

[buddhapalm]

Yes there may be some confusion here because Kam Yuen also taught Praying Mantis, which has some Lohan forms. So I am not sure which Lohan forms are which. But Kam Yuen did also learn from Wong Jack Man some of the Northern Shaolin Lohan Moon forms, these would have come originally from Sun Yu Fung 1920's. Kam Yuen teaches a staff form which is a Lohan form called Earth Demon Pole.

So because Kam Yuen learned two kinds of Lohan I would not know which ones he teaches. Except the Lohan Earth Demon Pole which is definitely from Sun Yu Fung.

I am sure NorthernShaolin will have greater knowledge of Kam Yuen than me on this.

Hope it helps guys.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[wushu chik]

Thanks for the information guys.

The lineage I have for Kam goes -

Wong Long
Sheng Hsiao
Liang Shili Huang
Yam Fung Din
Chiao Tsu Kai
Kam Yuen
Steve Baugh
Jason VanWinkle (my bro/sifu)
Moi!!!

So, this is where I am getting the info from!!! But, Jason has no idea. He knows the form, but nothing about it really! Just what Steve taught him.

Thanks again!!

~Wen~

[Tainan Mantis]

Wushu Chik,
You have written Chiao Tsukai as a grand teacher.
I think this is Chui Chuk-kai also known as Zhao Zhuhsi, my grand teacher.
He taught a version of Taiji PM descended from Sun Yunchang whose name should go after Liang and before Yam on your chart.

His PM does not contain Hseng Hsiao's 18 Lohan form nor any other form from Hseng Hsiao for that matter.
If Kam Yuen knows the PM Lohan form he must have learned it from the HK 7* school.

Here are the names of the first few Lohan moves.
1. Immortal raises hands
2. Tyrant lifts tripod
3. Stick a flower to the left and right
etc...

HK 7* also has a drunken lohan form. It is unique to the HK 7* branch and is not found in Shandong.

Taiji PM from Zhao Zhuhsi also has the Shaolin Buddha wooden dummy 108 movements.

[Tainan Mantis]

buddhapalm,
There is a Feng Mo stick form. I wonder if this is your Earth Demon form.
I have info on this including its 2 man counterpart which has been preserved in some schools.

[NorthernShaolin]

Wu Shu ChiK,

There are several branches of Lo Han. But the linage connected to Sun Yu Fung is known as the third generation of Northern Shaolin Lo Han which came from a monk named Yuan Tung T'an.

There are several books on Northern Shaolin Lo Han: Spinning Hand Fist by Shiu Hon Sang. (Unpublished Manaual)
Another is called Shaolin KungFu by Li Ying Jie,
Wan Li Book Co, ltd HK 1983 (English and Chinese). There is also the same book but published in Tawian.
Lastly, Shaolin Chuan Moon #2 1985 (Chinese).

All four books are on the sparring set called Nian Shou Chuan or Adhesive Hands Fist. This set consist of five rows.

The first row is called Fist rushing, fist throwing
Row two is called Adhering Skills
Row three is called Hand Twisting, Body turning, Counterattacking
Row four is called Changing steps
Row five has no real name but I call it grabbing and stealing the peach.
Row six has no name that I am aware.

There is a second sparring set and it isa called Five Brothers. This is a much shorter sparring set.

Now according to SYF there were originally 108 sets in Lo Han but only 18 were passed onto the next generation at the beginning of the 1900's. Out of the 18 sets the first 6 were performed soft, the next 6 were performed hard and the last 6 were performed both hard and soft. However, today it is rare to find anyone who learnt at least 10 NSLH sets.

As far as the other Lo Han sets in 7* etc, they cannot be regarded as original Lo Han sets because the root of the techniques are from other sources and only some Lo Han techniques have been added to justify the name Lo Han.

Now as for Kam Yuan, he is my lower classmate and he only learnt officially four sets in NSLH. I never observed him performing any NSLH sparring sets.

At the time, he perfered Tai Chi Praying Mantis style over NSL and NS Lo Han. Problem here is that he had to learn 7* before TCPM and that took time. NSL and NSL Lo Han fell to the way side.

When he left for LA back in the 1970's, he decided that it would be in the best interest to open a TCPM school rather than a NSL school but he incorporated many NSL and LH sets into his curriculum.

As far as the name of the techniques, I do not have. Originally as teh sets were taught, the sifu announced the name of the techniques but everyone got confused and so the sifu stopped announcing the names. Thus nobody has them that I know.

[Fen]

I'm Hoping to be in the Bay on the firday night-sunday noon labor day weekend.

If it is ok I would like to meet with you? Please E-mail me and let know if this is ok with you?

Thank you
Jason
sifu@shaolinnorthwest.com

[mantis108]

First off, I didn't realize that Wushuchik is related to CCK TCPM until now. Ummm... That's interesting. Anyway, regarding the lineage Chat

Liang Shili Huang (Liang Xue Xiang)
Sun YunChang (you skipped this one)
Yam Fung Din - Chi Sau Chun (the later is very important influence)
Chiao Tsu Kai (Chiu Chuk Kai)
Kam Yuen
Steve Baugh
Jason VanWinkle (my bro/sifu)
Moi!!!

I have seen Yam's other grandstudents' forms which are slightly different from Sigung Chiu's form. They are of Wong Kwok Dien who's Sigung Chiu's Kung Fu brother under Yam. Apparently Chi's forms are slightly different from Yam's although we can tell is 80% the same. Sigung also related that Chi had more focus on applications.

BTW, 7* was thought of as "the" Mantis outside of China back in the old days largely due to the affiliation with Ching Wu Assoc. It is understandable that most people would love to have the "real deal". Personally, I don't think one needs to learn 7* first before learning CCK TCPM or TJPM for that matter. If you can manage it, learn as much and as many of them.

Regards

Mantis108

[Fen]

We Do not Do TCPM. BSL is what I Teach. When is was leaning form Sifu Steve Baugh I was taught Lo Han Chuen & Syau Wan Chuen. And the lineage chart that Wen put up is the one given to me By Sifu Baugh. I asked her to do some research on these forms for me, so we have some more information on them.

Also, thank you Northern Shaolin for your information. It's very valuable. Do you happen to have anything on the Syau Wan Chuen form? Thanks again for everyones information!

Thanks,
Jason

[mantis108]

Hi Tao of Wushu,

Thanks for the clarification. In that case the lineage chart would not apply since it is more of a TCPM one. Sifu Kam Yuen has a lot of different stuff. So for his BSL lineage, you might have to continue the research. Good luck with your search. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[NorthernShaolin]

Tao of Wu Shu,

Syau Wan Chuen is a set developed by Yim Shan Wu. This is his set and it is based on one of the standard 10 sets of Ching Wu (Jing Mo) School. He saw the importants the set called Kung Lic Chuan but felt that itwas too long so he develop his own version and thus it became part of his NSL curriculum. It is not found anywhere else. Looking at this set, YSW did a excellent job because it is so smooth and fluid. It is a well though out set and this gives you an insight of YSW's CMA ability of how well this set is put together.

[NorthernShaolin]

As for Kam Yuan's NSL Lo Han Lineage:

Monk Yuan Tung T'an

Sun Yu Fung

Ma Ching Fung

Wong Chia Man

[Fen]

Thank you!!

Jason

[mantis108]

Hi NorthernShaolin,

Thanks for the info. Kung Lik Kuen/Kung Lic Chuan/Qongliquan of the Ching Wu version is already a shorten form as far as I know. This one by YSW sounds very interesting. I am curious of what he kept or filtered out?

Best regards

Mantis108

[NorthernShaolin]

Mantis 108,

When I first learnt the set I was told that YSW took out the techniques that repeated and made the set more linear.

Later when I learnt Kung Lic Kuen, it appears that YSW eliminated techniques that were similar to Tan T'ui which are mostly after the first series of kicks in the beginning. What he added instead are quick stepping and rapid series of strikes.

How closely does this set appear to be like Kung Lic Kuen, depends on one perspective. The pattern is similar and techniques in the beginning of the set appears to have a common root but the middle and ending parts are dis-similar to me. Other people who observe both sets stated that they are similar with a one being a short variation of the other.

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantis108,

Did you notice that Northern Shaolin mentioned a "5 brothers" short 2 man set a few posts back?

This is the EXACT same set as the "5 brothers" set of TJPM.

I have seen this lohan set done with 6 roads. The fist road being "5 brothers"

The sets start off with a very similar beginning to the TJPM beng bu 2 man.
One of the other roads looks like about half of PM pai-an.

These roads are somewhat similar to the Taidzu 64 short strikes of TJPM except that every move is countered.

[mantis108]

Hi NorthernShaolin,

That's very interest. Thank you for sharing that. I guess the best way is to learn both and then compare them like you said.

Hi Tainan Mantis,

<<<There are several books on Northern Shaolin Lo Han: Spinning Hand Fist by Shiu Hon Sang. (Unpublished Manaual)
Another is called Shaolin KungFu by Li Ying Jie,
Wan Li Book Co, ltd HK 1983 (English and Chinese). There is also the same book but published in Tawian.
Lastly, Shaolin Chuan Moon #2 1985 (Chinese).

All four books are on the sparring set called Nian Shou Chuan or Adhesive Hands Fist. This set consist of five rows.

The first row is called Fist rushing, fist throwing
Row two is called Adhering Skills
Row three is called Hand Twisting, Body turning, Counterattacking
Row four is called Changing steps
Row five has no real name but I call it grabbing and stealing the peach.
Row six has no name that I am aware.

There is a second sparring set and it isa called Five Brothers. This is a much shorter sparring set. >>>

I saw the reference to Five Brothers but was not sure of them being the same. Thanks for pointing that out. I find it interesting that SYF's Lohan has this as well. Now I am intrigue by this Nian Shou Chuan sparring set. Hope to see it some day. BTW, Five Brothers (Wu Lang Chui/Ng Long Tsui) can be linked with other short drills such as the Yibu SanChui ( One step 3 punches) or Pai An (Slap Press), etc... I would also like to see the sparring set that you mentioned which is similar to TJPM stuff. This is quite a find. Thank you. :)

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[buddhapalm]

Dear Tainan Mantis and Mantis108,
I do not know this set, but out of historical curiosity, can you tell me where the Mantis version of this set comes from ?

Is it from Lohan originally, or from some other common source ?

Tainan,
Any further info on the staff set would be most interesting.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[mantis108]

Wu Lang Chui was taught to us by Grandmaster Chiu. I am not aware of other lineage in Mantis that have this. Since there is an independent source (SYF's Lohan) that has this set, it is quite possible that GM Chiu picked up this set through Ching Wu connections. To be honest, this is the first time I am aware of this so I will have to do some more research.

On a side note, this set is very interesting (rather short though) in that it contains some moves where mantis hook and grab hands can be applied. Also it works well with other short sparring drill in Mantis. If this is indeed absorb into CCK TCPM, I would think that GM Chiu must have realized the great potential of it.

Regards

Mantis108

[NorthernShaolin]

Tainan Mantis.

You wrote:
Here are the names of the first few Lohan moves.
1. Immortal raises hands
2. Tyrant lifts tripod
3. Stick a flower to the left and right
etc...

Can you share the rest of the lyrics with us?

Thanks.