SPM, Bak Mei, Bok Hok, Wing Chun & Dragon style Parallels.

[Bao Jong]

I have read alot on the internet that these systems share much in common. Some sites also state that the early masters of these styles must have collaborated with each other. Can anyone tell me the reason for this assumption. Also what are the parallels between these styles? Any feedback is appreciated.

[PLCrane]

Someone else can probably say it better, but the main qualities that I notice are:

short, high stances with rapid weight shifts and shuffling steps

close-up fighting, lots of bridging with the forearms and use of forward pressure to check the opponents weapons, and to roll or slide over, under or around his defenses while still controlling the part.

use of short power, once you get in and make contact

[TaoBoy]

PLC has got it. Also, they often share centre-line theory and the use of straight rather than round strikes (as preference).

Generally, the basic theories are similar.

[kei lun]

These styles that you mentioned are most definitely intertwined. The history of Wing Chun says that the 5 elders of the southern Shaolin temple got together to create a �gnew system�h of kung fu to counter all existing kung fu (not my story, just telling what I heard). When the temple was destroyed they all went off in their own directions. NG MUI created Wing Chun, Bak Hok (a version of it), Lung Ying (later refined by LYK) and Phoenix Eye Fist style. They are all quite similar me thinks. JI SIN also passed down a line of Wing Chun, as well as Hung Gar which although has low traditional stances does have a lot of bridge hands similar to Wing Chun (it has been compared many times before). BAK MEI monk passed on his unnamed art greatly resembling wing chun, and as I have heard it the founder of SPM was a student of Bak Mei monk (correct me if Im wrong). Bak Mei and Lung Ying met from CLC and LYK, and its hard to tell how much they influenced eachother at that time.

These are the Hakka Arts which all share the same characteristics; i.e. high stances, short bridge hands, similar power generation, centerline theory, and all have the �gphoenix eye fist�h! I think for modern practitioners, whichever art they have dedicated themselves to, it would be valuable to check out the other Hakka Arts to understand your style, and see it from a different angle. The He Jing Dao Association in China is a center for the Hakka Arts.

Kei Lun

[Ao Qin]

It's always seemed to me that Hung Gar and Wing Chun resemble each other in more ways than one (bong sao's, vertical fist punching, mirror blocks, bridging concepts, etc.). In fact, the Siu Lum Tao form seems in my mind to have much in common with the opening / breathing section of Foo Hok Seung Ying. Of course, I don't know either form - just my observation.

Hi Kei Lun - I've always meant to ask you - why there are always "squares" (and oddly spelled words) throughout your posted messages? It's always followed by a "g", or "h". What' s the secret code?

[yuanfen]

pretty decent views on the relationships between the southern hands. Each in their own way have built on stances which are both solid and mobile and the ability to have both short and long power. But then they have gone their own way in the details.

[cha kuen]

Perhaps the first section of Tiger Crane does resemble some wing chun but I would say that the other styles (s. mantis, white eyebrow) resemble wing chun in fighting.

Hung Gar's fighting does not resemble wing chun at all!

To add to the list of similarities, all of those styles have sinkign elbow energies and the knees are in. They are connected when in use.

[TaoBoy]

I would say one of the predominant differences between Wing Chun and SPM is the use of lup sao. Yes, both systems incorporate it - but from my experience, SPM seems to utilise more than WC. Thoughts?

[PLCrane]

What does lup sau mean?

I looked it up in the archives and just found more questions.

Tan da, tan sao, pak sao, lup sao -

Is there a place where these are all described? I probably know them, but don't know their names.

Thanks.

[PLCrane]

Thanks, that helps. Some of those sound like stuff I've learned.

lop dar- rolling, grabbing/ grasping with a punch

I assume you mean punching with the other hand, right?

fook sau- a palm down forward block going towards your center line( sort of) not really a block but it would go over an incoming strike at an angle going forwards towards the oppenent, going fomr the outside to the inside, defending and attacking at the same time while bridging( if that makes any sense to you)

Yup, that makes perfect sense to me. Does it matter whether you attack with palm, fingertips or fist?

[mantis-1]

In training we have never heard of lop sau...Larp Sau (excuse the spelling but this is not a grabbing technique) and Sok Sau which is a grabbing technique and found in nearly every one of our forms often used in conjunction with Narp Sau in the forms or sometime double with a downward motion and a shoulder barge. As in the finishing moves of Saam Bo Pin Kui
Could someone please enlighten me a litle as to what you mean by Lop Sau, Sifu is back from visiting Hungary in september I will have to ask him about that. But in the mean time could you explain a little more. The technique you call Fook Sau sounds like(if you use both arms at the same time) Bao Jong - Covering Hands simultaneous counter and attack as are all the techniques in CG SPM

Regards

mantis-1

[dezhen2001]

Romanization of words sure does make it hard to communicate... i wonder if all the different students had this much trouble sin the olden days :D

As far as i know, Lap/Lop/Larp Sau is like a jerking hand, no real set position apart from basic training. Used to jerk and take your partners centre and allow you to attack his centreline. I think it's a common thing in many systems... :)

david

[kei lun]

Since were on the topic, I was told long ago that the founder of SPM (Sam Dot, I believe) learned from Bak Mei monk. Does anyone know anything about that, or where there might be some history pertaining to that on the net?

Is there really squares and letters in my posts? I wasn�ft aware, my computer is not in English so perhaps the text my computer uses is not a standard one. On my display everything seems fine so I didn�ft know. As for the �goddly spelled words�h, that�fs just my own neglect of the language, I don�ft speak English too much and quite seldome write it so its getting rusty. Sumimasen!


Kei Lun

[dezhen2001]

hi Kei Lun, sorry i can't help with your question :)

Just wanted to say that the square appears where an apostrophe should be, so my guess is it's because ur keyboard is not English standard...

no big deal lol

david

[Yum Cha]

Hi Kei Lun, you going to the dinner?

The funny characters in your posts are vain attempts to interpret non-standard alphanumeric characters, like apostrophies, quotes, etc, etc. It happens in your email too. Just one of those things.

I have a question though, I'm told Lam Sek was Grand Master Cheung Lai Cheuns first teacher. He healed him following a childhood accident that nearly crippled Grand Master, and taught him a pattern, that we come to call Sek Se, Stone Lion. It is actually Sek for Lam Sek, or at least thats my understanding.

Did I read somewhere that Lam Sek was a well known Southern Praying Mantis Master? Is it the same person?

[EAZ]

I also have been told that the name originally was called "Sek Se" for the name of the sifu, and that somewhere down the line it was transformed into "Stone Lion", due to a missunderstanding concerning the form's origins.

i remember a post by a very erudite Guangzhou lineage person living in Canada though, who seemed to have a great grasp on how exactely this form was taught, how the version we all practice is but half of original form,etc. Maybe he knows more about this as there appears to be many changes in teaching over the years by CLC

[guyborg]

hi there... lup...lop or larp sao is not a grasping tech. but rather a hooking tech in our style... designed to shock the opponents energy and uproot his structure... tan... or tarn sao in our style is an upward flicking wrist... quite different from wing chun tan sao... our general grasping fist is cum na anyhow this is just a quickie to indicate how different weords mean different things... just like hole and whole...

[guyborg]

ohhh... and by the way my old Sifu used mainly english words to describe strikes because he taught/teaches mainly westerners...this makes it hard often to know what variouis chinese terms actually are... thus typing here holds such limited form of kung-fu communication... it is a shame that technology does not allow for us to touch hands over the net... because 'one touch and all is known' my art requires practice not talk... only then can we really understand each other....

[dezhen2001]

in my limited understanding of cantonese: lap sau means like a jerking hand, which is quick and shocking... not pulling or whatever. It's more explosive. tan sau is like a dispersing hand...

interesting how many techniques share similar names - may help us to see what the essence of the names mean :)

david

[kei lun]

Hey Yum Cha,

Long time no hear eh. I dont think Ill be able to make it to dinner due to a heavy work and training load.

Yeah, the Sek See form was named after Lam Sek. But I dont know much about him except that he passed down the Drunken Form of Sou Hut Yee.

EAZ:
were you talking about me there? I did mention before that originally there was one form called Sek See Keun (Stone Lion Fist). It was later seperated into 2 forms; Siu Sek See and Daai Sek See, which were also known as Siu Sup Ji and Daai Sup Ji. The latter, Daai Sek See, is repeated between the bow and the ending. Later the Siu Sek See form was replaced with Jik Bo Biu Jee Keun, and Daai Sek See became known as Sek See. It has been altered very little between the KwangZhau and Hong Kong schools.
Siu Sek See, Daai Sek See, and Saam Moon Baat Gwa Keun all make up the form Sei Moon Baat Gwa Keun (4 gates 8 trigrams fist).

Oh, Tan Sau means "spreading arm" because thats what it does. Bak Mei uses Tok Sau, which is also found in Wing Chun. It means "lifting" or "pushing up hand" which is used similar to Wing Chun's Tan Sau. In Wing Chun the Tok Sau is used to push up on the opponents elbow, just as the name describes.
These names dont need to be translated because the meanings are sometimes figurative and sometimes dirrect, but dont make much sense either way. The Chinese names are easier to remember, just the romanization is comfusing.


KeiLun

[dezhen2001]

agreed about the romanization! lol
I've only been training WC for a couple of years, so have much more to learn about each hand :) thanks for the info though :)

david

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Mate,

Could you ask about mung fu chut lum , mung fu ha san, and fu bo, if they are the same form but changed through generations from teacher to teacher?

Also what proof is there that sek sze was made from sek sifu? Is there any pictures of sek sifu? It was called ying jow sup jee kol da/sa/la kuen originally!:) Any idea's?

Does your say mun bqua have a section at the start with fu jow ripping techniques as you step forwards? left and right hand then, gou gin sau/choy(scissor hands) step across and repeat opposite legs and hands(fu jow)?

thanks
Garry:)

[EAZ]

...it was you. Thank you for lurking around this thread and elucidating a bit more this question.

EAZ

[kei lun]

Did I say something wrong?

FT:
Sorry, I dont have any proof about the origins of Sek See Keun. As for it being originally called "Ying Jau Sup Ji Kau Da Sa La Keun" Im not too sure what your getting at on that one. Ying Jau (of Bak Mei) and Sup Ji Kau Da (of Bak Mei) are seperate forms.

On the Tiger forms of Bak Mei, there are 3 forms: Man Foo Cheut Lum, Man Foo Ha San, and Haak Foo Keun. They are different forms. The form known as Foo Bo was, as I was told, the same form as Man Foo Cheut Lum, and that name came from the Bak Mei group in Fut Shan. They practice a little different than the KwangZhao schools.

Since you asked, our Sei Moon Baat Gwa form begins the same as Daai Sek See Keun, to the point where you step out (about 10-15 moves into the form). From there there is a series of Biu Jee and Sut Choei (3) which ends with Gum Jin Sau. Following that you turn around and repeat it on the other side in the opposite stance. Perhaps the Biu Jee that we use is a Tiger Claw in your system!

EAZ:
Im not too sure what your beef is with me. But you do use some big words, just like that last guy that was out to get me. Hideous I believe it was, but your not him I suppose!?

I didnt mention anything about how the form was taught. I didnt say that everyone practices but half of the form, I dont know who practices what. And I dont live in Canada!


Sorry to disturb your guys thread!
Kei Lun

[Bolt]

Hmmmm. Interesting. I will ask my Sifu about our Fu Bo ("..., the same form as Man Foo Cheut Lum...."), as I practice Futshan Bak Mei. Our Sup Gee is a comprised of both Sup Gee and Stone Lion.

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks Mate,

Man kwong Fongs sup jee tape says it was called sup jee ying jow kol da/la kuen i think as well.

I see the ying jow and the kol la as the same technique of course, so kol la/da and sa are ying jow techniques as you are seizing. The form i have been shown is ying jow sup jee kol da/sa/la kuen i have 3. As well as SEK SZE i have, maybe it doesnt come from sek sifu i think.

In say mun b,gua after sut choy we kol la quickly jerk and half step and then sut choy opposite hand and repeat very southern mantis like.:)

take care
FT:)

[EAZ]

Originally posted by kei lun
Did I say something wrong?

EAZ:
Im not too sure what your beef is with me. But you do use some big words, just like that last guy that was out to get me. Hideous I believe it was, but your not him I suppose!?

I didnt mention anything about how the form was taught. I didnt say that everyone practices but half of the form, I dont know who practices what. And I dont live in Canada!



Kei Lun: I am sorry you read into my words anything negative. I meant only to thank you for reading the thread and contributing to it.

I regret that you read this:
"...it was you. Thank you for lurking around this thread and elucidating a bit more this question."

as something negative. Amazing how one's words can be interpreted as meaning the opposite of their real intent.

I reiterate my thoughts to clear things up: thank you for contributing to this thread Kei Lun.

[EAZ]

1. Can someone please translate the meaning of the third form described here?

2. Can someone tell me if any of these forms has a movement ressembling double upward strike (both hands) with wrists. Perhaps you may even repeat this movement 3 times.....

Thanks,

EAZ

[fiercest tiger]

Haak Foo = BLACK TIGER kuen=fist

Same form different versions again as it went from generation to generation.:)

FT

[FIRE HAWK]

Sou Hut Yee was known as Beggar Sou and was one of the ten Tigers of Canton and also one of the four top Doctors in southern China with Wong Fei Hung .I think he practiced the Beggars Kung Fu style Lam Shek also practiced this style .

[kei lun]

FT:
I have heard that name before from Man Kwong Fong. I have also heard from alot of schools a form called Sek See Sup Ji Keun. Like I said, we say Siu Sek See is Siu Sup Ji, and Daai Sek See is Daai Sup Ji, as they are both Cross Pattern forms. Perhaps I am wrong that it is from Lam Sek, just what I was told. But I dont know why that is upsetting, what does it matter where the name came from.
And yeah, Ying Jau is the same as Kau La. In all the forms there is Diu Taai Kau La movement.

Fire Hawk:
Sou Hut Yee was one of the 10 tigers of canton. He was a Beggar's Stylist and famous for his Drunken Boxing. Lam Sek learned from his line and thats where Jeui Hut Yee Keun (Drunken Beggars Fist) came into Bak Mei. The HK or Vietnam branch also has this form but they changed the name, I dont remember to what.

EAZ:
There are quite a few uppward movements in Man Foo Ha San and Haak Foo Keun, usually an upward tiger claw used for raising the opponents elbow, or to his face, or whatever. There are a few sets of three tiger claw movements but none are uppward (in my lineage).

Bolt:
I was never in touch with many of the FutShan Bak Mei guys. They came to our meetings but I didnt talk with them much. Do you guys follow the same history story that Eddie Chong does? The story that has a different founder of Bak Mei and didnt come from CLC.


Im just speaking for my line guys. This is what I have learned and have been told, I dont necessarily believe it to be more right than others information so please dont jump on me eh.

Kei Lun

[EAZ]

Originally posted by kei lun
FT:
Fire Hawk:
Sou Hut Yee was one of the 10 tigers of canton. He was a Beggar's Stylist and famous for his Drunken Boxing. Lam Sek learned from his line and thats where Jeui Hut Yee Keun (Drunken Beggars Fist) came into Bak Mei. The HK or Vietnam branch also has this form but they changed the name, I dont remember to what.

EAZ:
There are quite a few uppward movements in Man Foo Ha San and Haak Foo Keun, usually an upward tiger claw used for raising the opponents elbow, or to his face, or whatever. There are a few sets of three tiger claw movements but none are uppward (in my lineage).


Don't know about this form in our Vietnamese lineage, maybe we practice it but I don't recongnise it it. Can you describe it a bit? Is it related to beggar movement in Serk Si or in 3 gates form?


MFHS: this is the way we do it (upwards claws). There is a form in Vietnamese lineage called Tam Cong, or 3 attacks that comes before MFHS. It involves a series of three double unward wrist strikes (we call them crane strikes). I seem to remember FT telling me once that this movement could be found in a version of MFHS. I'm trying to find out where this comes from. The movement is done with one hand in many previous forms (a bit like in 9 steps before you shuffle sideways back towards strating position) but never in sequence of 3 double strikes.

If you do not have a movement like this in your Guangdong lineage, do you have a) any forms to learn after MFHS b) in which this movement might appear? (It is NOT in 5 elements form).

Bye,

EAZ

[fiercest tiger]

Who is upset? Im was telling you that i have heard that the original name for sup jee or sek sze be it small or large came from a form called ying jow sup jee Kol la or da. Its definitly not upsetting that its called sek sze or sup jee. LOL

Eaz,
I have 3 tiger claws as i move forwards and i have 3 that moves backwards that i learnt from guangzhou that finishes the form. any idea's on this Kei Lun?

FT:)

[Shaolin Master]

The Liou Men Pai of arts were composed of many features it was not systematic. Most of the practitioners originated their skills from the Hung Men styles. As a result Shi Zi is also existant in a different variety in Hung Men. Beggar So was a Hung Men practioner as well (as were many other Liou Men Pai practitioners).

Shi Zi Kau Da is often used as its name as it indicates the the approach of many of the applications. This is the name in Hung Men and it is so called because of leaning against actions within the strikes. In Hung Men the movements defend whilst attacking but without moving the incoming strikes rather deflect whilst entering seemingly to lean. Cai Li Fo also has a set of the same name but considerably different in techniques and concepts of course. Recently, I have seen Liu Jian of the guangdong Hung Fist perform the set very similarily to ours, techniques were the same but the speed was different this is possible due to age :)...

cheers