How much does Heirarchy matter in the school?

[type01]

How much does Heirarchy matter in the school? to what degree should respect extend to? what are the boundaries? Of course you would respect the poeple who have a superior skill level to you, but also the ones who try hard and put effort into what they do even thought they might not be good at it yet.

How do you respect your sihing more than mutually when they are not even a decent role model, i.e.boasts about drinking etc...
But have a moderate skill level and has potential!

How do you even mutually respect them when they dont even try to correct bad techniques after a person of a greater skill level tells them whats wrong and how to do it correctly. Also, in two person drills, doesnt even punch properly so the person training with them cant improve that technique (also makes ppl feel bad about there technique).

How can one bless that person with the title of sihing if one has attained about equal skill to them in less time but naturally with much more effort ,sweat and blood.

How can one respect "sihing" if they have over inflated ego's? and nothing to back it up with?

Whats the right thing to do respect "sihing" and continue to let them do there thing? or what?

[Merryprankster]

Respect is earned, not given. Anybody who says otherwise is full of it. I don't "respect," the people who have been training longer than me. Ability is all that counts when it comes to respecting their abilities. Respecting somebody as a person is independent of their abilities in the MA, or at least should be. Halo effect anyone?

Worry about your development, and leave if you don't like the school or the attitude.

[type01]

its not the school, the sifu is awesome i learn alot from him and from my elders and even the younger ones! bunch of great people but just one or two particular persons dont help in furthering skill and inhibit improvement when training with them. And i dont like their attitudes.

how can you respect these people who have been trainging there longer?? And doesnt the persons character and attitudes reflect the way they train??

[Ish]

its up too each person how much effort they want to put in to get whatever results they want. so what if theyve been going longer and aren't as skillfull as someone else might be they might not want to be that good and might prefer spending there time doing other things.

[KnightSabre]

When I did Kung Fu the respect thing was very important and strongly emphasised.

When you enterred the school you had to take your shoes off,you also had to greet your seniors in ascending order.
You were taught that when you sparred the seniors you had to be very respectfull and if you hit them then they would take you out.

It was a fear kind of respect.
Often we would be training and then the door would open and all the seniors would walk in and line up against the wall,they would spar with us and be real rough,there would be blood noses,torn t-shirts tiger claw scratches all over,we rarley fought back and just tried to minimise the dammage.

There was this one senior who was about 4 years ahead of me,he used to be especially cruel and liked to back kick people in the stomachs knocking the wind out,he would then stand there and wait for you to recover and attack you again.
Anywayz I had been training BJJ for about 8 months on the side and the one day he started roughing me up,after about 2 minutes of abuse I took him down to the ground mounted him and controlled him,he couldn't get me off or do anything to me
it then dawned on me that the guy has weaknesses,why respect someone out of fear?

Now some 5 years later and things are so different in the new school,the begginners don't hold back when they grapple us,on the contrary they go all out to beat us,you know that these guys are giving it there all.
The respect is very different,after I've tapped a bigginner 5 times in a row without breaking a sweat he knows I'm better then him and gives me that repect.

We are also alot more approachable,in the kung fu school you hardly ever saw the begginners mingling and talking to the seniors,at the MMA school it's a very common thing

I'm sure this insn't the norm at all kung fu schools and MMA schools but thats my experience with them.

[dezhen2001]

For me it's simple... respect everyone :)

EVERYONE has their own experiences and point of view on a skill, - even someone junior to u. Maybe the Seniors and Juniors see things differently to you and can show you more of the whole skill.

To me, i listen to whatever my seniors can tell me, as i can see they have good skill... even if someone tries to help me and doesn't have so good skill i will listen and thank them.

At the end of the day u can compare what anyone tells you to what your Sifu says... so it's good that other people are doing their best to help you grow :)

Also, when doing anything you should ALWAYS do your best... that doesn't mean being aggressive, going all out or whatever, just using your mind and body to develop and understand the skill. Theres many ways to grow, and often doing it the right way is harder and not so clear.

Knightsabre: we ALWAYS mix and talk with the Seniors, as well as Juniors. Of course when trainng the class often splits up, as sometimes you don't understand the level yet. But theres so much u can learn from EVERYONE, andnot just about Kung Fu :)

just some thoughts,
david

[HopGar]

in my first school, itwas very karate like. I think I can leave it at that. At the Hop Gar school, there is now heirarchy really except for the senior instructor and of course, the sifu and everyone has mutual repct for each other. In the school I've been at temporarily, its run more like a karate school. This school is more of mixed conglomerate of different martial artists with different backgrounds. This school teaches practcial stuff ( btw, im these just so I can apply some of the stuf I know). However, everyone has mutual respect for everyone except for one guy who thinks his style (shotokan) is the end all and be all.

In all, everyone mixes with eachother, there is no separation of rank, you just know who's been there longer than you.

Peace Ya'll

[friday]

hi type01

here is some advice from my personal experience:

first of all u if u are the si dai (younger kung fu bro) of these people its probably not your place to openly criticize these people that u are unhappy about. As u are quite happy with your sifu and confident in the decisions he makes it is probably appropriate that u allow your sifu to address any issues.

these people behave the way they do because in part how their story has unfolded, their lives, experiences, friends etc. if u wish to change a person's attitude without the likely potential for direct highly emotionally charged confrontations do not criticise them and definitely not in public. this will only make them defensive and cause friction between yourself and these other ppl.

often a way to mold other ppl is to stand in their shoes and discuss things with them (the relevant issues u are concerned with) and point out how it would benefit them to adjust their behaviour. the best way to make lasting changes in other ppl is to get them to see how it would benefit them and to get them to want what u want.

it is important to note that none of this means that u have to give these ppl any respect that u don't feel they deserve or in your heart or mind to feel that they are great ppl when u think they are not.

i have once b4 met someone who had betrayed someone close to me. yet i smiled and treated them with the utmost courtesy. this is because i respect the decisions my friend had made and if he had forgiven and accepted that man's apolgoies and request to rejoin the group then it was certainly not my place to treat him any other way. in the same way u should trust your sifu as it is unlikely he hasn't noticed this behaviour. perhaps he is trying to change these ppl for the better :)

[The Willow Sword]

but honor your teacher(sifu) your founder(master)

as far as hierarchy goes. there are some people who have a position of instructor authority that are real fuk choads and they dont deserve sheeot exceot mutal respect and thats all. you dont have to bow to them.

i Bow to my Sifu and the founder of the system. when i was an instructor at SD i didnt want anyone to bow to me or refer me as sifu. i havent earned that title as of yet. the term is used too loosely these days. just as black belts are given out like candy.

MRTWS

[NPMantis]

I respect everyone to a point in the class, those who don't deserve it such as by being agressive or egotistical I have no respect for and those who show humility and a genuine nature I will hold much respect for.

[HuangKaiVun]

In my school (hopefully open within a month), everybody will be on equal footing - including myself.

Though I'll be teaching the classes, I'll be right there with the students participating in the drills.

My school will feature no ranking system. There will be no "seniors" or "juniors". We'll all be teaching each other, even in the beginning. I'll probably have people address me and each other by first name.

Sure I'll be the "instructor" by virtue of the knowledge I'll be offering, but that's pretty much where it ends.

[Merryprankster]

how can you respect these people who have been trainging there longer?? And doesnt the persons character and attitudes reflect the way they train??

I don't necessarily respect people who have been training longer. And their character and attitudes do NOT reflect the way the train--more often, the way they train reflects their real character and attitude, despite any "personal improvement," that the practice of the MA is supposed to confer.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I get in trouble with my CMA teachers for being to relaxed with my students - My group does not stand on ceremony, however there is a hierarchy, and a good reason for it.

Like MP says, respect has to be earned. But at first, that is the students job. My school has a definite inner and outer circle. The outer circle is where the public trains, they get good training, as best as we can give in a group class setting. People learn thier fundamentals, and solid material.

The inner circle are the people who have proven themselves and are tough enough to take the training. Character, loyalty, intelligence all play into it. Perfecrlty good players may never be part of that group because they just don't have all the factors needed to be there. There is also the simple fact that you are wasting my training time if you don't put out the effort. Until a student proves himself it's not about them.

It's not a special club that gets to 'lord it' over the other students. These are just the dedicated players. Most of these people become my friends over time, and other than the fact that I am the 'practice leader', there is an absence of confucian structure. A good example was one of my players who practiced another CMA before, wanted to offer me the seat at the head of the table, but I really wanted to be in the middle so I could talk to everybody. I just don't like standing on ceremony.

In my opinion most schools overdue the hiearchy thing. But in terms of running public classes, it is a useful tool - you train assistants and you can look around the room and gauge peoples ability - but for garage groups like mine, it is more based on the individuals effort. It can also be importasnt in groups because if certain players are immature - the hierarchy helps them conform to more mature behavior.

I guess we still have a sense of junior and senior - but in our club it is simply the chain of communication so everyone stays in touch and makes training. Often the seniors have more to do than juniors.

[dezhen2001]

imo the seniors at my school seem to have more to do than the likes of me... their own training as well as helping look after us! So it must be harder which is why they have my respect :)

david

[Water Dragon]

I have a pretty good idea where I stand in my school. But it's never been formally stated and there're always people popping in and out, so I try to respect everyone I meet. Knowing me, I'm likey to pi$$ off the wrong person, get my a$$ kicked, and get thrown out of the school. So I like to play it safe. :D

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Heirarchy in the Kwoon provides order and discipline conducive to promoting a learning atmosphere (as long as the heirarchy is not meant to use junior students as floor mops or practice bags). A sihing (senior student or older brother) should exhibit admirable qualites such as being helpful to junior students while at the same time assisiting the sifu to maintain discipline in the Kwoon, abides by the laws of the land, does not use illegal drugs, maintains courtesy, respect and loyalty to the sifu and kwoon and requires himself to progress to the best of his ability while encouraging juniors to do the same. He should be someone that junior students can use as a positve example and who the sifu can say with pleasure "he is my student". If a senior student is as you describe type01, then he does not belong in the position of senior student and that is the fault of the sifu (if he knows of the behaviour). Sometimes a senior student can hide his real character (or sometimes he loses has good character and changes for the worse) from the sifu for awhile...but sooner or later it comes out and at that time the sifu should offer him the chance to change or remove his senior status and even expel him from the kwoon if the character flaw and behaviour is serious. It is really too bad when this happens as the student looses and also the sifu who has spent a lot of time and energy to train and guide the student. Personally, I would want to be someone my sifu could say "he is my student" rather than someone who the sifu says "he is no longer my student"...as this is the same as being dis-owned by ones father (heirarchy is kun fu is based on a family system where the sifu is the teacher/father and students are the 'offspring'...believe me, it takes a real lot for a sifu to dis-own a student.

GHD

[HuangKaiVun]

Actually, it doesn't take a lot for a sifu to disown a student - depending on who the sifu is.

A sifu who's not of good character disowns students long before they leave. I've had sifus (invariably of lesser skill) mistreat students (including myself) in and out of classes while collecting their $$$. That kind of "teaching" DESERVES to be disrespected.

Maybe it's because I am an American businessman, but my thing is that if a student pays tuition he ought to be treated properly. I have long chafed under the so-called "tutelage" of ill-meaning seniors who deliberately withheld my training so that they could lord it over me.

It's not for me to say what a sifu should set up as his hierarchy within a school, as I'm well aware that many systems do work. But I can safely say that in 100% of my training experiences, the awarded-seniority thing did not work for ME. I was no kung fu novice at the time of my training and was more than a match for the seniors (and sifu) I faced in these instances - hence the wars.

Besides, hierarchy doesn't mean jack in a real fight. All that matters is if your moves work or not. And that's why I chafe when the $$$ I put into tuition get eaten away by seniors trying to hold back my training.

[PaulLin]

I think what kind of students would fit what kind of masters. If the quality of the students are high, the master is high. If the students are specialized in sertain area, so does the master. Kind of like the way people(in general majority) reflecting the government.

The hierarhcy aspect, I think, don't really reflect what you, as an out sider of certain group, would espect. Some would value the fighting aspect and some value the other aspects. Some value how you can fight a visible opponent, and some value the invisible opponents(such as personal weakness, self countrol, self-refinements, etc.) Who has the authority depends on who has the advanced answers that the seekers wants to seek and follow.

Then again, it has to do with what are you especting to get out of Maritial Arts learning.

[dezhen2001]

I really don't see where the problem is...

The people who started training before me are my Sihing, the people after me are my Sidai. It doesn't reflect on skill at all really, though generally people who started before do have more skill... I know for eg. that there are people who started training before my Sifu, but they have reached a plateau whereas my Sifu's skill has now grown beyond theirs. They are still his Sihing though... so no problem.

It's just a name like saying big or little brother... doesn't reflect on the level of skill at all.

As for the attributes a senior should have, they should be somewhere between where u are now and your Sifu ;) I think it must be a hard job to be one of the more senior students, so am very glad i'm not yet :p

david

[TaoBoy]

This is the way I see it...

I think when you are learning you must be humble, you must accept the teachings of your seniors. This does not imply blind respect. I agree that respect must be earned - but I also believe that if you are humble you are showing enough respect for your seniors. I will listen to what everyone has to say - if my Si Dai wants to make a comment about my form I will listen. Also, just because I have seniors does not mean I must behave like them. Everyone should choose their own path.

From experience, I have found that the respect of your juniors is something that does not come with the colour of your sash. When I reached a level where I was expected to begin classes (meditation/warm-ups etc), the students were not quick to listen to my instructions - but after time they began to understand that I was only doing my job as a senior and wasn't on an ego-trip.

As with everything, if ego is involved there is trouble.


KnightSabre wrote:
Often we would be training and then the door would open and all the seniors would walk in and line up against the wall,they would spar with us and be real rough,there would be blood noses,torn t-shirts tiger claw scratches all over,we rarley fought back and just tried to minimise the dammage.

This is terrible. I can't believe the sifu allowed it.


It was a fear kind of respect.

Fear does not equal respect! It is good to see you stopped the bully senior.

Peace. Out.

[type01]

Wow what a responce!!!! Thank you all that have posted, and i hope that the people who have read this thread but have not posted have also benfited from this disscussion.

It seems there is politics everywhere. Thanks again for sheding some light on this topic

[Fu-Pow]

Let me put it this way.

There are people at my school who could probably whoop up on me if they really wanted to. They're faster or have natural skill or have sparred more or are in better shape. However, if they started after me then they are still my Si Da and I am still there Si Hing.

My SiFu even takes it this far. His friend stopped training CLF like 20 years ago. However, he started training before my SiFu therefore my SiFu still introduces him to us as Si Bak (older uncle ie, his SiHing.)

This is very hard for westerners to understand. SiHing and SiDa are not titles, nor should they be treated as such. They essentially refer to a familial organization. Does your older or younger brother ever stop being your brother? No, obviously not. I think the same applies to kung fu.

If you want some good info on this kind of stuff check out hungkuen.net under "traditions." There is another site which I think is partially responsible for alot of misinformation....it is shaolin.com. Their whole website is erroneous and especially their interpretation of the terms Si Fu, Si Hing and Si Dai.

[MonkeyBoy]

It's true that some measure of respect and dis-respect are earned.

However the truth that some now believe you need a reason to respect others, is sad.

Has Common Courtesy has lost it's status as a starting point in relationships?

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Strickly speaking si-hing and dai si mean older brother and younger brother, but many kwoons now (even those run by ethnic Chinese masters) use the terms to mean senior and junior students as to rank which many kwoons have incorporated into their kwoon. It is the same with the term sifu which means teacher/father, but which today is taken to mean 'Master'.

GHD

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon
Strickly speaking si-hing and dai si mean older brother and younger brother, but many kwoons now (even those run by ethnic Chinese masters) use the terms to mean senior and junior students as to rank which many kwoons have incorporated into their kwoon. It is the same with the term sifu which means teacher/father, but which today is taken to mean 'Master'.

GHD

True, this part of Chinese used to be family oriented. It is the family bound by martial art/kung fu. This tradition is under the distruction of modern society.

[dezhen2001]

Fu -Pow, Golden Horse Dragon, Paul Lin - exactly my thoughts as well... It's like a family, doesn't reflect rank or skill level at all... i can't see where the confusion is? :)

david

[ursa major]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
In my school (hopefully open within a month), everybody will be on equal footing - including myself.

Though I'll be teaching the classes, I'll be right there with the students participating in the drills.

My school will feature no ranking system. There will be no "seniors" or "juniors". We'll all be teaching each other, even in the beginning. I'll probably have people address me and each other by first name.

Sure I'll be the "instructor" by virtue of the knowledge I'll be offering, but that's pretty much where it ends.

Thx for your post HuangKaiVun,

I admire what you are trying to accomplish through this contrarian structure. However I believe it will not work and this not from any fault of yours. Your future students will be predisposed towards a hierarchical structure and this as a result of indoctrination from other MA sources (other clubs, movies, etc) throughout society.

Also, it is in the nature of people to pedigree their accomplishments and colored belts in MA is a very well recodnized method of doing so. My best guess is within a short period of time and against your wishes, you will be forced to introduce a ranking system.

Previously I was a member of a club who had three ranks, Beginning, Middle and Finished. To the best of my knowledge no one ever 'Finished'. Nowadays that Sifu has a colored belt ranking system. I always respected what he was trying to do -- it just won't work with Western Society.

Oh yes, one more thing, a MA school is not a democracy. There is only one vote that counts.

have a pleasant day,
UM.

[HuangKaiVun]

Interesting reply, ursa major

but we'll see.

I have studied and taught professional violin (among other things) and my assistant is a NYC professional dancer and equestrian. I'm kung fu trained, she's Western military trained (though not in THE military).

Neither of us ever had ranks to help us (hinder us) in any of those disciplines - martial arts included. And both of us were trained in the West.

Belts and seniority may be societally accepted by those in the West and East, but that doesn't mean that I have to use them. Besides, my deepest and best training as a kung fu man was very anti-rank. Either I did the techniques or I didn't. That's the way I was taught and that's the way I'll teach.

My experience in violin, kung fu, and college teaching is that without a rank to earn, students focus less on their egos and more on learning that which they're being taught. Without the fool's gold of rank to work toward, the students are forced to see themselves exactly as they are in relation to the mastery of the lessons being taught.

Not surprisingly, the best schools and teachers I've been associated with didn't confer any sort of rank on people because the ability (or lack of it) spoke for itself. Nowhere is this more true than in kung fu, where either the techniques come out when they're supposed to or they don't.

For those students who must absolutely have rank to feel validated, I might not be the best teacher for them to be learning from.


A martial arts academy is not a democracy - and I never said it would be.

On the other hand, it won't be a dictatorship either.

Good organizations have a proper balance of sifu direction and student input. In the ideal situation, both work together for the common betterment of kung fu.

Hence I will NEVER agree with the statement "only one vote counts". EVERYBODY'S opinion is important to me - at least everybody who'll be paying their hard-earned money for me to be teaching them right. It is through these students' generosity that I will exist as a viable business entity; why SHOULDN'T their opinions count?

The kung fu man acts decisively after carefully weighing the options presented to him.

[Merryprankster]

Whoa, I think people are talking about two different things here.

Common Courtesy is hardly respect. It's a societal norm, which, I might add, varies from culture to culture.

Respect is a universal thing that does not vary from culture to culture. The outward SIGNS of respect might vary, but respect is nothing more than "I find some aspect of you admirable, and worthy of note." It might be as simple as acknowledgement (Wow, he really does 'x' well, or he's such an honest guy.), or maybe emulation of a particular aspect (and for those of you that don't think that promotes TRUE change, you very often become what you do...it's the premise behind boot camp)or as complicated as a role model relationship/substitute parent figure, etc. Of course, you can also respect a certain thing about somebody, and not respect other things they do. FDR had some incredible personal qualities, and was a philanderer, etc.

Respect has to be earned. So does disrespect (I prefer to think of it as disregard--if I don't care about you at all, that's a pretty big insult...). Don't think that because I don't "respect" somebody right off the bat, it means I'm being a **** until they show me why I shouldn't.

[David Jamieson]

heirarchical structure is necessary to pretty much all learning models whether they are martial arts or mathematics or what have you.

A student enters, generally they know nothing about what is in the learning path they are about to undertake. Sometimes they are familiar with terminology or even other styles and this can be the impetus for them seeking more.

A heirarchical structure clearly defines who is teaching and who is learning. Furthermore, it defines who is at what stage of learning and serves as an indicator of what the younger (less knowlegeable) student must do and learn to get to the next rung on the ladder they are climbing.

To give equal footing to everyone opens the door for a whole lot of wasted time both for students and for teachers.

The whole respect, kowtowing, etc, etc is different and seperate from the learning model and serves more as a culture of the environment purpose. In some schools you will find this in others you will not, but in all schools you will find heirarchy and it is a useful thing to employ to expedite learning to those who are undertaking to do so.

You wouldn't ask one who cannot walk to teach you how to walk would you? Is it not helpful to understand who in the room can teach you what's next? A heirarchy serves this end.

A heirarchy helps to foster other factors that contribute to a safe and constructive learning environement. If it is clearly delineated who is in charge, and who enforces the rules then the curriculum can be followed and learning can be achieved in a less chaotic fashion without the frustration of having to unlearn and relearn something because you picked the apple from the wrong part of the tree.

peace

[type01]

i understand that but what im asking is if your senior, in layman's terms, is a bit of an "A"hole does it still mean you have to respect him/her?

and if he/she is of lower skill level but has been there for longer and still an "A"hole do you still respect them?

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by type01
i understand that but what im asking is if your senior, in layman's terms, is a bit of an "A"hole does it still mean you have to respect him/her?

and if he/she is of lower skill level but has been there for longer and still an "A"hole do you still respect them?

Don't let an "A"hole disturb your quest for higher martial arts, don't let that changed what you are supposed to be and do. It is an obscure that attempt to make you fall off the road of Tao.

[friday]

Paul,

what does that imply in terms of type01's question as in how we should respond to such an Ahole person?

[KC Elbows]

I'm the senior most student in my class. It's been this way about a year now, and I have definitely learned a lot from the experience.

At first, I think I had some ego tied in with it, not that I lorded it over people, but in the way I would become very frustrated running class before people recognized me as senior, as I don't look like a violent person, and some people will walk all over you if you allow them.

However, once everyone was sparring, that changed. I am not a phenomenal fighter, but I do the best I can, and am willing to go all out. I think once everyone was sparring, the guys who thought there was nothing to learn from me mellowed and became more accepting when I would try to give them advice.

However, I am a married man, and I have other activities I do. For me, kung fu practice is every morning from 4:30 AM to 6:30 AM and two three hour sessions a week, plus odd times here and there that I just break it out. Some of my fellow students have much more time to practice, and they may surpass me. However, I once had more time, much more time, and there are certain advantages I have from those years of training, so it will still be a bit before they surpass my skill, but I look forward to that day as a lesson in humility.

As a senior, there are certain things I tell students when I'm helping them. I tell them that I am their senior in this style, but I am not infallible. I tell them that I expect them to become better than me, as they are all young. I tell them to think about their art, and how to apply the art, not to expect it to be given to them. I tell them that all the athleticism in the world doesn't save you from not knowing how to fight when you are fighting someone with decent training, so learn the mental game. Stuff like that.

Anyway, I don't believe in a rigid heirarchy, but a more friendly model. The rigid heirarchy, IMO, breeds competition amongst brothers, fosters resentment, almost guarantees that some unqualified people will receive deference for their martial opinions, and tends to place the teacher on too high a pedestal for his or her own good.

Enough of my babble.:)

[KC Elbows]

And the genuine a hole senior is the teacher's responsibility, so I just don't deal with that sort, I'll talk it over with the teacher if I can't just ignore it.

[type01]

thank you all very much!!!

KC your posts were quite a good read and answered some of the questions floating around in my head thanks again.

[joedoe]

I always try to remember that no matter who you are, you have the capacity to be an arsehole. Some people are just better at it than others.

You don't have to like someone to respect them. Respecting someone does not mean you have to kowtow to them.

And sometimes your estimation of your skills compared to someone else's may not be 100% correct.

[PaulLin]

Further more, not just the appication skill of MA physically should be taken in consideration. There are many other values in study MA. We not only learn how to handle the tangible opponents, but also formless opponents. They are equally important to fight.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by friday
Paul,

what does that imply in terms of type01's question as in how we should respond to such an Ahole person?

I can only do so much with my limited abilities. If you don't understand what I am addressed to, then don't worry about it. It is not that you failed to understand, it is that we don't have the link of fate. I can only share to the ones that will understand me.

The most important key in this message is what the reader sould comes up with and respond with. I cannot put them in instructive way, it will defeated the purpose totally.

For generally all things done with human, if one can try to avoid or not affected by the bad things and praise the good things, they should do okey.

[WinterPalm]

Nothing in martial arts should be unconditional. That includes respecting the Sifu. If the Sifu deserves respect than you respect him. If the Sifu does not than you don't respect him. A Sifu should be respected because if the Sifu is not respectable as both a martial artist and a person of the community than they are truly not carrying the martial way and should not be a Sifu. Any Sifu that does not deserve immense respect is not a Sifu but a charlatan.
Respecting an actual Sifu should not feel or seem unconditional because the respect will be so highly deserved and the skill taught will be held with high esteem. The respect for someone teaching you an intricate art should be honest and sincere, not something that you "MUST" do. It should all fall into place.

So in my opinion, a Sifu deserves respect because if they do not, than they are clearly not a Sifu.

[KC Elbows]

I've not met one sifu without character flaws, just I have not met one person without such flaws.

Sifus should recognize that each of their students will probably have at least one character trait that is stronger than the sifu's own character in that trait. If the sifu is supposed to be like the father of the school, then he/she should be proud that his students are in some ways better people.

[ewallace]

If the sifu is supposed to be like the father of the school, then he/she should be proud that his students are in some ways better people.
And he should always have at least one eldest son who will kick the crap out of any other siblings who get out of line so he doesn't have to suffer any legal consequences.

[PaulLin]

If the student must be less skill than the sifu, to respect sifu. Then sifu will never taught as much as he could to ensure the students will never be higher than himself.
We will be looking forward to lose the arts as the generations grows.
Skills are not the only concern, in fact, mostly not the main concern. This should be like in family. The children are expected to grow up and be stronger, smarter, and more successful than their elder. But they well still respect the elders unless the family codes are broken. Not becaues the elders are less stronger, less smarter than the younth.