internal or external?

[PaulLin]

I am not trying to have an arguements over how to define internal or external arts, nor which one superior to another.

I just want to see how many people would think what % of internal and external in their current martial art status.

For example, for my case, I don't think 100% of internal or external MA existed, all are blended with different %. The internal arts have more internal % and less external %.

I would count Tantui and ShuaiChaio like 80% external 20% internal(roughly), TaiChi and BaGua 10% external 90% internal . XingYi 20% external 80% internal. 8 step Mantis 50% external 50% internal. White Crane 30% external 70% internal. Meditation and QiKung are 100% internal, but I don't count them as martial arts by themselves. I roughly average them up, I have like 40% external and 60% internal in my current martial art status.

So, I wondered what you think of your current martial art status %?

[Repulsive Monkey]

I have to disagree with with some of your examples here. Although one can obtain completely internal in most arts (theoretically, and some individuals historically had done so) some of the arts you mentioned are more external than you mentioned in a contextual kind of way. I would put Xing-Yi at 70/30 (even that at a push!!), and white Crane definitely lower than that. I met a White Crane Master once and I would of definitely put him at 60% external 40% internal tops!! And he was meant to be a well known Tawainese White Crane Master.

I have met people who definitely are 100% internal and have some very alarming evidence, well it was at the time when they did their demonstations on me.

However I know Im just being a fly in the ointment here as its all relative to be honest.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
I have to disagree with with some of your examples here. Although one can obtain completely internal in most arts (theoretically, and some individuals historically had done so) some of the arts you mentioned are more external than you mentioned in a contextual kind of way. I would put Xing-Yi at 70/30 (even that at a push!!), and white Crane definitely lower than that. I met a White Crane Master once and I would of definitely put him at 60% external 40% internal tops!! And he was meant to be a well known Tawainese White Crane Master.

I have met people who definitely are 100% internal and have some very alarming evidence, well it was at the time when they did their demonstations on me.

However I know Im just being a fly in the ointment here as its all relative to be honest.

I welcome your honest sharing. I think that I was seeing my styles form my practicing point of views rather than the person who recieved the techniques for the styles. I agree with you on XingYi, since my GM Wang's lineage has focuse more internally than his other kungfu brothers. My white crane GM Tsi, a Taiwanese too, is a very soft person, you won't see much power unless he shown on you.

My view of 100% internal are the people who can put down their opponent with merely a touch, no strikes at all. I would call it like Taoist magic rather than MA.

That is why I am thinking this way. Any ways, I am happy to hear your sharing:) You are very experiential.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Why just Taoist Magic? Although I know it does come up within that tradition but not the same as it does occur in Int Martial arts. I mean with reference to that oft spoken and much debated LingKong Jin or empty force martial art skill. I know many people on here have at great pains debated this subject, but it and mere soft touch knock downs are highlighted in martial arts. Therefore non touch or soft touch knock downs do occur in martial arts a lot, and that would constitute 100% internal like you suggested.

Cheers anyway.

[dezhen2001]

Interesting thread Paul :)

Right now i would say the Wing Chun i am learning should be more internal (in a perfect world)... that doesn't mean i can use it properly of course ;) It's hard to give a percentage as everyone understands the skill differently. I have played chi sau with a lot of other people (some who have trained longer than me), and they do use a lot more muscle strength as well as force... there are also many of my seniors who are 'softer' and can 'listen' far better. I guess it's been shown to work both ways, but for me i look at my Tai Sigung - a 79 year old man who's so short and thin, yet he can handle many people much bigger than him with ease. He is relaxed and uses the minimum amount of movement and power needed to do the job. That's what i want to be like :)

Right now i would say it's probably abour 80% external and 20% Internal (on a good day!). I have so many bad habits and pre-conditioning form other skills before i met Sifu :(

Of course the Qigong is different, all Internal i would say. Though hard (ying) qigong does have some very physical elements to it, you are developing the bones (internal) first, then the muscles (tendons) and skin (external). These are seperate form my gong fu though :)

david

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
Why just Taoist Magic? Although I know it does come up within that tradition but not the same as it does occur in Int Martial arts. I mean with reference to that oft spoken and much debated LingKong Jin or empty force martial art skill. I know many people on here have at great pains debated this subject, but it and mere soft touch knock downs are highlighted in martial arts. Therefore non touch or soft touch knock downs do occur in martial arts a lot, and that would constitute 100% internal like you suggested.

Cheers anyway.

I guess that can be said as a martial art. I felt that the people who can actually used non-touch or soft touch skills really lost the meaning the "martial" To me that is too peaceful to be martial. But any ways, you are right to say it is still martial if you felt that is martial.

[PaulLin]

David,

The internal arts that I know, higher the level looks more soft and effortless. If you do harder and show more power, it actually make the force less. It gives a look if the applier didn't care to use much force but in fact, that is the bast effort.

The supporting reasoning behind that is that the brutal/external forces and the soft/internal forces are consuming the same energy sorces. The external forces must used more energy to fight and struggle within your own body parts, and then go through the frictions form the surface, then result into the target. On the other hand, the internal forces attempt to borrow and continue the previous momentum, and try to by pass the external frictions to get to the final target. In theory, internal would spend less energy and result more, but it is very difficult to get to the level of applying internal.

Does that the same internal force you know of?

[dezhen2001]

Hi Paul,

yup, it's the same. Looks effortless , but very difficult to do, so does not always happen (especially for me ;)). That's why practising the 1st form (and all the others) seem so important, to learn to relax and use your body structure in the correct way, as well as develop health and Qi. Chi sau teaches you to listen to the other persons energy, while being relaxed yet strong yourself. You learn how to relax and listen to your partner, how each hand works in application from the form, how to stand and use footwork, redirect energy and also when and how is best to use your own energy :)

david

[Wu Wei]

I, in no way, resemble an expert on this matter, but heres what I think:

External and Internal are independant functions. Internal connects our will to the material universe, and it is the most rudamentary of functions. The External is simply matter being moved around. If we dont connect the inner to the outer than we sometimes dont react in the External the same way we wished to. This is simply being too weak to do what we wish to.
If we are weak Internally, then we are chaotic, and our body is like a horse without reigns to control it.

By Internal or External style, all that is implied is the focus that style places on External and Internal dicipline.
For a person to have either the physical or the internal more diciplined than the other is a waste.

Basically, when we successfully do anything, we have used some external and some internal. But our weakness in one will limit us in the other. If you are very internally strong but you have a weak body, will not be able to fully apply your inner strength, and if you have a great body but no inner strength, you will not be able to fully exert your body's capabilities.

Excess should be avoided. Having a long right leg is good for kicking someone, but if your left leg is short, youre not going to be very good at fighting. you need two long legs, and thats what external and internal are like.

That being said, i wouldnt choose 50%/50%. The ideal is 100%/100%, but people tend to have a weakness in one or the other.

Im very un-educated on this matter, but it's just a thought I had. So dont shoot me down too hard.:)

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't think about "internal vs. external" because when I'm in combat, I'm just FIGHTING.

[Merryprankster]

I don't know. I box, wrestle and do BJJ. You tell me :) I spend more time in BJJ than anywhere else....

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
I don't think about "internal vs. external" because when I'm in combat, I'm just FIGHTING.

You and MP are the natural styles, don't have to bother to establish what % of internal nor external, just let them happened in you as they naturally lead you to. It is not all people should be aware of the internal or externals.

I also welcome Wu Wei's contribution to share his knowledge. Oh, I am talking about a total of 100% in a person to distribute the %, so the total sum has to = 100%. I am sorry not making this clear. The way of balance, like you have said, it is more of the internal way, in my opinion.

Like guohuen said, as time goes forward, the % would change. Internal fouse more on increase life force--Qi, while external focuse more on how to use/apply Qi/Li(physical forces). So it is good to move more toward internal as one gets older, I agree.

Hope there are more people share their thought, so we can all benefit:)

[Royal Dragon]

Is there any speacial reason why the words internal and external have to be a light red??

[yenhoi]

MP: Doesnt that make you an internalist?

:eek:

[ricksitterly]

I can do a kamehameha

[Cheese Dog]

I would say I'm at about 60% internal/ 40% external right now. Like Gouhen, my practice has become more internal as I get older.

Merryprankster, I think that BJJ is more internal than most give it credit for. Alot of emphasis on relaxing, flowing, and sensitivity as you get better at it.

That reminds me, didn't you start a thread some time ago about boxers doing fa-jing? You might be a "closet internalist"! :D:D

[Repulsive Monkey]

Come on Cheese-dog my BJJ friend excepts the fact that BJJ is 100% external. When I showed how much we relax at out Taiji school, he couldn't match it and exclaimed that at that softness all you'd get was twisted up into a pretzel. So I said for him to attack me with what ever he wanted.

He still practices BJJ with great enthusiasm and by all accounts is good at it, but without wanting to blow my own trumpet he has now started Taiji at our school too now. I found with such abilities as sticking alone I have been able to circumvent both his attacks and my Wing Chun friends without too much effort. However I am also wonderfully surprised when I get trounced by a totally external technique too.

[PaulLin]

There are a few question I would ask myself about how I catagorize internal and external:

Do I value more on the long term(what is eternal) or short term(what is now) gains?

Would I give up my believe because of the environment or do I change the environment based on what I believed?

Do I value more about what a move can do to the others more than the meaning of the move itself?

Should my thoughts, feelings, fits the purpose or the purpose fits the thoughts and feelings?

Well, if you get confused, I am sorry aobut that, I hope I can put them in Chinese, it may serve better.

[Merryprankster]

I am only an internalist if the fact that I don't care makes me one. It's fighting.

To RM. Ok. I'm glad you're good at what you do. Could you be a little more arrogant and elitist though?

[PaulLin]

Well, I am only interested in having a genuine way of defending myself as a foundation and enrich my living on top of that. I don't want to think of who can I defeat and when. That doesn't enrich my life the way I want it.

[dezhen2001]

paullin: i have not seen you on this forum for a long time... hope you are well there and have a good new year :)

dawood

[PaulLin]

I don't have much time for internet lately, I have so much to do. thanks for asking.

AND HAPPY CHINESE NEW YEAR TO YOU TOO, AND AS WELL AS TO ALL MY FELLOW MARTIAL ARTS HERE:D

[dezhen2001]

gong xi fa cai! :)
i should be working on pc but spend too much time here :p

dawood