Bajiquan/Pigua Zhang Articles

[RAF]

For your reading pleasure, the first article of a two part series has been posted. It describes the basic training of bajiquan and some of pigua zhang (Part II).

http://www.wutangcenter.com/bajipigua.htm

Enjoy!

[count]

There are some broken links on the demonstration of #'s 4,5,6, and 7. But you laid it out really well. With so much dis-information out there, it's nice to see some factual information getting out about Liu Yun Quao and "Magic Spear" Li Shu Wen.

Tony looks excellent in his demonstrations too.

Thank-You

[count]

Oh, I just noticed that Jason Tsou's birthday is the same day as Liu's.

[RAF]

Count:

Andy Kuntz is our webmaster and he does a pretty good job with a difficult task. He doesn't like scan things in because you lose too much detail so he either put in my word file or typed it in himself. I think he is still working on it. The appendix of Wu Xing relationship in baji, along with other translation of Chinese terms are not there but can be found in the original article.

I don't know when Part II will be out.

Later.

[count]

Well pass along my props to Andy for his good work. Don't forget to tell him congrats on his first place at the Qingdao tournament and find out which bagua form he won with.

[Daredevil]

Good stuff. :)

[RAF]

Count:

The second part of the series is now up but he told me he is still trying to get pictures up and some of the Chinese translations.

Andy played the open-hand tighthand form and also did deerhorn knives.

Thanks for information confirming Liu as Gong Bao Tian's student. My friend from Shanghai did a quick runover the paper clipping and photo and verified what you said. Was this from mainland China or Taiwan? Still not sure who is in the picture hanging from the wall.

[count]

It's one of many I have from China. The picture is Gong Bao Tien, of course.:D

[count]

Hey RAF, have you seen the article about the tournament from last year in the Taiwan newspaper? I spotted myself in one of the pictures. Funny, I look really tall in the group.:D If you haven't seen it, I can e-mail it.

[mantis108]

Hi RAF,

I couldn't have agreed more to the introduction especially to the strategy for preserving and strengthening the identity of Kung Fu via revealing the foundational martial. Bravo! well done.

Hi Count,

Lucky you go to visit China. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[count]

No, but there were alot of people from China at the Wu Tang Tournament in Ohio last fall, including some newspaper coverage. We did make some good contacts for a trip we are planning for next summer to Shandong, Hebei, and Beijing.

Tony Yang brought a group this summer which included the earlier mentioned tournament in Qingdao. There are some great pictures on their site if you didn't see them yet.

[RAF]

Hi Count:

I don't have a copy of the picture printed in Taiwan. I think Ma Long was responsible for sending it but I could be wrong. If you send it in a printable format, I will post it at the school.

Thanks Mantis108.

We will have, if the INS grants it, Zhang Wei Fu and his Taiji/Mei hua Tanglang group coming over. The clip of the young man playing a mei hua form on our website is his son.

Re-reading the article, I think I might have been a bit harsh on the Contemporary Wushu players. They train hard and are well conditioned. In my thinking, the differentiation between Contemporary and Traditional Wushu is not necessarily in the forms but found primarily in the basic training (every good martial artist, whether Contemporary or Traditional does some form of stance work. But there is much more in the traditional arts, which I would label auxilliary training. A major share of the responsiblity must lie on the shoulders of traiditional teachers who hold back this training. However, I really am conflicted---I am not sure traditional training can be commercialized successfully--its often repetitive and boring and may be an "art" in the true sense.

Contemporary maybe repetitive but it surely isn't as boring. Again forms and routines mean little. I only wish that the Shaolin Monk routine was a little more respectable and less commercial. My one trip to the Shaolin Temple was enough for a lifetime. But if I think about it long enough, we also do a pretty good job of packaging and commercializing everything.

Thanks.

[Daredevil]

I don't think you were too hard on the contemporary wushu guys.

In my view, it is important (at this point of martial arts history) to be clear about the differences between the two. Being strict about the dividing line is not being hard on the other guys.

That's just my point of view.

Also, as a point of interest to any Baji-watchers, I'll describe our beginning curriculum. A lot of it is the same, but not entirely. The details all seem to match, though, and I'd say all of Baji -- at least as I've learned it up to now -- is in the details.

We began, from the very beginning, with three exercises. The basic horse-stance (which we do in the "strike to the heart"-elbow posture), the single punch and slowly learning the Xiaobaji form. None of those things have been forgotten and still remain the core of Baji training.

We added the Guardian-Monk routines, one by one, into our training regimen. Somewhere down the line we got taught a Pigua exercise. How I see it, it's all about trying to find the point of power that gives Baji (and Pigua?) it's "oomph". The point is found in the most simple dynamic exercise, the single punch, and in every exercise there after. Finding it is the difficulty. It also seems to feel a bit different for each exercise, but the core essence of it remains the same : you're training your whole body power.

That is the basic curriculum for us. There's other exercises we have started working on later, but that's another discussion. :)

[RAF]

Daredevil:

Some of what you are probably describing with regard to exercises we use in the warm-ups and we just couldn't get them in.

We usually start with the bear walk, then a grinding step movement (sometimes we include the elbow strike to the heart), ta zhang (out of a half horse half bow), snake coiling heel kicks, side heel kicks, and various stamping and stomping movements. We then break and next go into the Jin Gang Ba Shi or we may do some of the stationary pigua exercises with breathing included.

From there we either go into two man applications or striking the pads while a partner moves with you (includes elbow strikes, one punch, kicking, etc,.)

Break and then sometime we do 3 or 4 sets of xiao baji, holidng the breath while structural alignment is checked. Or we may do da baji form. Once in a while the advanced students will liu da kai. However, the da qiang training and real xiao baji training must be done on your own.

We usually finish off with types of stationary one punches, two which are variations of which one is directly from the xiao baji form.

Then the breathing exercise we call Eating the Sun, which is a neigong/qi gong exercise but we just don't call it that.

At home we vary. I have a set of stationary exercises I often use.


My feeling is that if you are training in baji and not doing single-moving postures, you are missing out on a lot. If you don't hold breaths in the xiao baji jia, you aren't training baji.

But of course, I realize training and forms vary from school to school and for sure this is not the only way to train.

Thanks.

Count:

Could you please post the link to the baji articles on Cyberdwoon, especially for ASIA. I read the forum but don't post otherwise I'd lose my money making job!

Thanks

[mantis108]

Hi Count,

Thanks for the clarification and info. Hope your future plans and events will turn out great. :)


Hi RAF,

I understand your reflection; however, I am also with Dare Devil on his view about the distinction has to be clear in this date and age. I don't think you are harsh at all. Chinese has a saying "when the upper supporting beam [of a structure] is not straight, one can expect the lower supporting beams slanted as well. If this generation is going to be the example (the upper supporting beam), we have to make sure it is not slanted ; therefore, making the structure crooked.

A few things to ponder:

1) It takes as much time to build a modern wushu (MWS) foundation as traditional foundation. Same dedications and everything. Why not build a traditional one? The answers is that the supposed masters, those who created the MWS, sold out. Because of that MWS has no soul. It's monotonic at best. Personally I don't see anything exciting about it. I believe people bought the "opinion" of the government controlled panel of "masters" rather than relying on their own rational reasoning.

2) Traditional systems as system goes is like the article described a bulldozer which is a practical tool; whereas, the fancy race car (MWS) is but going in circles. Every part of the bulldozer is functional. Even the paint is for protecting the machine from getting rust. The paint on the race car is but to make it more flashy and aesthetically pleasing to the eyes [re: the sponsors logos]. Both builds glories, but in different capacities. To the feable minds, glamour bedazzles.

3) Foundation building pieces are like sketches of artists. Do you ever wonder why the Piccaso's earily sketches (not even the full painting) can fetch high financial value? Because each stroke of sketches is a piece of his inner most feel even a thread to his soul - primal, truthful, and thus beautiful. Anyone who understands art thus be inspired by its invalueable existance. Foundation of traditional CMA is in my view a window to the practitioner soul since it is designed via the experiences of the pass masters and then animated again by the following generations. Those who don't value and up keep foundation building in traditional arts are not fit to handle or manage any martial arts portfolio at all let along creating trends in martial arts IMHO.

4) One final note, styles exist for a reason. They came to existance due to the myriad approaches to martial arts strategies. Styles begins in the first day of foundation building. Traditional CMA as a whole recognize and respect this as part of the CMA culture and tradition while the MWS is at core trying to abolish the freedom that is set forth by the traditional arts. I simply do not want to be a Wushu automaton who follow orders and opinions of a "higher authority".

Sorry about the rant but it's important to draw a clear line on the issue.

I also enjoy very much your sharing the training regime in public. This is indeed a value thread for gaining rare knowledge of a precious system. I for one support your openning up traditional system(s). :)

Best regards

Mantis108

[RAF]

Mantis108:

Good post and I hope others will join in and share their training routine and ideas.

More!

[Liu Yun Qaio]

But you'll thank me for the Bagua when you get old.;)

[Brad]

I thought it was a pretty good article. At first I was a little bothered by the stuff on modern wushu(having most of my experience in that area), but honestly I've become a little disalusioned(sp?) with the sport. As a martial art, traditional are better than the modern styles(I'm talking about the arts themselves, not the people practicing them). I feel that alot of traditionalists go on & on about modern wushu's problems when they can't show what they do is any better. I guess I feel tradtionalists need to take care of their own garbage in their own org./lineage/whatever before trying to deal with other people's problems.

[count]

Originally posted by RAF


Count:

Could you please post the link to the baji articles on Cyberdwoon, especially for ASIA. I read the forum but don't post otherwise I'd lose my money making job!

Thanks

Good discussion guys. I have some stuff to add about training but I gotta go do it.

Later.

RAF, I posted for you at Cyberkwoon and sent the word to our group. So far, nothing but raves.

Liu Yun Qaio, Thank you!

[RAF]

Thanks, Count, our school appreciates it.

We are tying to get a good start and hope others will attend our Hall of Fame Tournament. Someday I hope we can have a summer baji camp and training videos.

Liu Yun Qaio:

I'll need the bagua in my old age.

Thanks again!

[mantis108]

Thanks RAF. I too hope that more traditional artists will follow this inspiration.

Brad

Regarding my criticism on the Modern Wushu:

My position on taking a firm stance against MWS is based on its lack of substance as a sport that's related to Chinese martial arts and its ambitious attempt to replace traditional arts altogether. Personally, I have nothing against anyone who is involve in the sport.

Just thought I have this for the record.

Regards,

Mantis108