Pong Lai Seminar

[Pong Lai]

Had posted this on the events calendar and am posting it here for those interested. Hope everyone is training hard and doing well! Pong Lai.

PONG LAI MARTIAL ARTS, U. S. A. INTENSE FALL SEMINAR
Conducted at Pong Lai’s Nashville, Tennessee Training Facility

Over 13 hours in 3 days of step-by-step instruction in Northern Praying Mantis.
A don’t miss for beginners or serious Martial Art practitioners and instructors.

Kung-Fu Training Schedule:

Friday October 11th. 2002 6-9 PM
Pong Lai Basics routine including: Intense Dynamic warm-ups, stretches, kicking drills, application drills, and multiple two-person conditioning drills.

Saturday October 12th. 2002 8 AM- 12PM & 2-5PM
Plum Flower Mantis Single and Two person drills.
Seven Star Mantis 18 Elders form (Part A)
Two-person form (Part A)
Two person application drills / strategies.

Sunday October 13th. 2002 9 AM-1PM
Completion of and/or review of lessons instructed.

Seminar will be instructed by Shrfu John Scolaro,
Director of Pong Lai U. S. A.

To inquire or register, please contact:
Shrfu Jim Smyer at 615-289-3509

[woliveri]

Question: How much for the cost of the seminar(s)?


Comment: This is the same criticism I have with Wah Lum and that is this Part A, Part B stuff. Why not teach one Whole thing rather than part A this time and Part B another time especially since the time span is large. I would rather go away from a seminar with one complete set than a piece from this set and a piece from that set. Also, who knows when parts B will be taught and when they're taught people may not have the schedule to attend the next seminar. I'm not sure why this is done other than a marketing ploy to get students in on the next seminar. Wah Lum does/did this a lot and it aggravates me to death!! I'm sure there's still a lot of forms that have never been completed (all parts taught) because of this structure.


On a positive note I like the way there is time set up for review as over the course of all this time it's easy to forget some aspects of what it taught.

[18elders]

I understand what you are saying but it is not a marketing ploy,
the 2 person to part A will also be taught, that is why there isn't enough time to learn the whole thing. This way you will understand the part of the form you have learned. It is not like a WL seminar, you will not just learn a form and that's it. You will learn praying mantis basics and the 2 person drills and apps to them. There will not be enough time to learn the whole form and the 2 person set to it.
Another option that i will discuss with Shr-fu is that i will be there and i already know the form and the 2 person so whoever would like to learn the whole set i can finish them up on the form.

[yu shan]

Woli

I hear ya bout the WL seminars. Yes, you learned a part of some kind of a form, but did we ever learn any two-person drills or applications or kicking drills or hand drills or actually the two-person to the form? NO! Because it is not taught in WL. Why do you think practitioners like you and many other top notch WL`ers leave?

This seminar is action packed, three days of kick ass. You will never look at a seminar the same. It is hard enough to teach just the single side to a form, but when you share the fighting theory of a single form in KF and all that goes with that, and believe me, there is alot more. If you plan to do this seminar, take your vitamin, I`m talking intense! Trust me...:)

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by yu shan
I hear ya bout the WL seminars. Yes, you learned a part of some kind of a form, but did we ever learn any two-person drills or applications or kicking drills or hand drills or actually the two-person to the form? NO! Because it is not taught in WL.
True, WL was like that. But I have this question: maybe the real traditional Chinese MA teacher (like China before the communists) expect THE STUDENTS to explore the forms they are taught, to look for applications there, and only come to sifu to verify/correct/reject their own research. The reason I suggest this is that I've read exactly this account of Hong Jun Sheng learning Chen taichi from Chen Fa Ke. Has anyone in WL tried this approach with MC and got turned down?

[Pong Lai]

I don't know about you all, but I realize am not going to live to be 200 years old. I also only have about 20-30 years in which I will be able to agressively utilize any applications that I may be so lucky to be taught. After being taught how to use it and numerous counter scenerios, there is plenty for a STUDENT to continue exploring himself. The endless counters, scenerios, etc are not able to be all taught by any one teacher. Everyone will encounter different experiences. Being taught tech / applications allows one to have the basis in which to inteliigently begin his explorations into perhaps a deeper understanding of usage and the movements.

Anyhow, this thread was not intended to be about Wah Lum.
All are welcome to attend and also express themselves in person.


We focus on detail and a comprehensive understanding of the movements. You will leave the seminar without fear of "forgeting" aspects of what was taught.

Pong Lai

[Art D]

I think that training w/ John is a worthwile experance. the times that I have trained w/ him and his teacher were both enjoyable and informitive. I think he makes a good point in that a two person set or a presentation of an application is just the begining. There must be self exploration.

As far as YE gor's ? of has any body done the resurch and bounced it of MC ?
I did it all the time and was always given excelent direction from MC, as well as some very insightful directions to continue my explorations. I don't think any one way will give you what you need . WL , PONG LI, AD or any thing else. although they will give you insight and valuble experance's to build your skills on. This is why I think you should have a mentor some one that will direct you, teach you and send you on your way to see the world. I think In many ways MC has done this for a lot of us.

[flem]

i approached master chan and was NOT turned down , but yegor, people here don't want to hear that.

[mantiskilla]

theory is the most important.TECHS AND APPL ARE JUST A WAY OF TEACHING THEORY . if the theory and "feel" is not in your every move, then applications and techs are worthless. they are a means to an end. by understanding the theory you can THEN explore on your own in a productive way, and not groping in the dark.
o.k. i guess it was more of a statement :)
________
Steaming food (http://www.cooking-chef.com/steaming/)

[Art D]

I think that theory can not be understood with out seeing application of it, other wise it is just theory and is abstract, and lives its life out on a forum some place . there in lie the difrence between the theorist and the warrior. It is not about teaching theory it is applieing it.you can not teach it with out applieing it What is your way of teaching it without showing application? How do you seperate them ? How is one more importan than the other? they are the same!

[Pong Lai]

Sifu AD, thanks for the support.
You are right on with having to know the apps/techs to support the written or spoken theory.

I can endlessly provide you with the spoken and written theories of CMA fighting as taught to us, but without consistent, in depth, physical teachings, it only becomes myth and paper with pretty characters. Kinda of like you learning the words Beng Bu or Duo Gang and not knowing to which moves they relate to in the form.
They become no use to you if not taught.

I do not believe my teacher(s) have taught me all they know, nor every scenario in usage. However, they have supplied me the tools and foundational knowledge to capitolize on, allowing me to focus more on training and not reinventing.

I know we have been through this once before, so here we go again.

[Ye Gor]

MKilla,

I have to disagree. Theory is knowledge that lies in the head. It's nearly useless when it's time to "get down and boogie".

What you (or I, at least) want is that knowledge at the 'gut level'. The only way to get it there is physical practice. As I said before, I believe you only learn what you practice. If you practice punching/grappling/throwing air (as in forms), then that's all you're gonna be good at.

-------------------------------------------

PongLai,

as you said, there are an infinite number of variations and scenarios (well, maybe not infinite, but way too many). I just can't see how you can learn all of them. It seems to me (I use 'seems' because I'm not at the level to actually experience it) that at some point you gotta get the flavor/feel/spirit (whatever) of what you do to the point of responding well to any scenario naturally, withOUT being TAUGHT the particular response to that particular situation. So I don't understand what living to 200 years of age has to do with anything. If I understand what you say correctly, than even 200 years would not be enough.

[mantiskilla]

no i dont think so . so tell me this then, are you going to have techs worked out for every possible scenerio? thats absurd. thats where the theory of your system comes into play. if you only practice techs for a certain stimuli, then whats going to happen when something different happens? if you understand the theory of what you are doing, then you have the ability to adapt. btw, i dont practice punching/grappling/throwing just air. :D


I just read your response to Pong Lai, after i wrote the above paragraph. seems we may be closer to an agreement.what you call "flavor", i call theory. whatever. :D
________
Upskirt Thong (http://www.****tube.com/categories/1140/thong/videos/1)

[Frogman]

Originally posted by mantiskilla
theory is the most important.TECHS AND APPL ARE JUST A WAY OF TEACHING THEORY . if the theory and "feel" is not in your every move, then applications and techs are worthless. they are a means to an end. by understanding the theory you can THEN explore on your own in a productive way, and not groping in the dark.
o.k. i guess it was more of a statement :)

What kind of statement are you trying to make?? :confused:
App's and techs teach you theory, yes and if you expect to understand the theory w/out going thru the proper steps you will learn nothing. “The “feel” in your every move??” I think this is something that takes time to develop. The more you do it the more the “theory / feel” comes out. The theory has to come from with in, you can not expect someone to give it to you. That is why we Practice, Practice, Practice, yes Apps and Techs. As you learn you should begin to see how to use the movement in different ways. You can show apps and techs you can not show the feel.

There are people that can not dance at all no matter what music is playing.

Also
I think it would be neat to go up to the PONG LAI MARTIAL ARTS, U. S. A. INTENSE FALL SEMINAR Conducted at Pong Lai’s Nashville, Tennessee Training Facility.
Only I doubt my wife would approve. Yes, she is in charge.

RibHit
fm

[mantiskilla]

I think if you read my last statement, it should clarify your question. the basic techs teach you how to think in that system, so that you will be able to adapt to any given situation. of course it takes time, never said it didnt. my original point was that techs are used as a way to teach the theory, so that you can then be adaptive. Not learn this is how you block this punch etc. It is just a jumping off point. Btw what are the "proper" steps to learning? Is it solely more form practice? :D
________
SUZUKI RG500 HISTORY (http://www.suzuki-tech.com/wiki/Suzuki_RG500)

[Ye Gor]

'Theory' (i.e. intellectual knowledge) + application drills = ability/gut-level-understanding. Isn't that what we're all trying to say here?

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Pong Lai, Yu Shan: do you have a website for your school(s)? Some web hosts are cheap ($10/month), others are cheaper (free). A website is a good way to advertise / announce seminars, etc. If you can't find someone to do it (make a webpage for you), I'd be willing (for free) to slap together something simple for you. (Why? In the interest of promoting traditional CMA, ofcourse!... as long as there is no anti-WL material :))

[Frogman]

The subject of this thread is the Pong Lai seminar but the topic of conversation seems to be “tech vs. “theory””. Which is some what confusing since every one agrees you need one to have the other. We all see the same thing but from different prospective, I guess. When you break it down to KISS, you find that it is all the same, the "proper" steps to learning, that is. The first step is seeing it done then copying or trying to duplicate what your learning. Then you practice, practice, practice, and as you do you start to have a better understanding about what your doing. As you develop a better understanding of what your doing you begin to understand more about yourself and your limitations. As you push past your limitations you evolve. As you evolve your technique and your understanding become one. This applies to all sorts of learning. I know I have a long way to go, but at least I can see the path and am not groping around in the dark, I hope the same for everyone.

Peace

RibHit
fm

[Pong Lai]

Yegor: Thanks for the offer for helping out with a web site.
I am starting to get around to planning one. Just have been pretty busy with the normal juggles of work, family, and a school.


As far as the Pong lai seminar, I hope that everyone that attends can bring along with them the same questions, theories, and practices that they display on this forum. It would then prove to be a very exciting, enthusiastic workshop.
I state the above without contest!

Since just about everyone here has refelected on one aspect or another of their talents and abilities, we can even all consider to form an annual "get together" where each particpant selects and instructs a workshop, in an effort to promote CMA as we are all hoping. I would be more than delighted to host the first gathering?!?!?! Not an association nor just another form as taught in most tournament seminars. Kind of like what the old WU Dang club had orginally in mind. maybe this should post as a new thread?

[Pong Lai]

Yegor: Thanks for the offer for helping out with a web site.
I am starting to get around to planning one. Just have been pretty busy with the normal juggles of work, family, and a school.


As far as the Pong lai seminar, I hope that everyone that attends can bring along with them the same questions, theories, and practices that they display on this forum. It would then prove to be a very exciting, enthusiastic workshop.
I state the above without contest!

Since just about everyone here has refelected on one aspect or another of their talents and abilities, we can even all consider to form an annual "get together" where each particpant selects and instructs a workshop, in an effort to promote CMA as we are all hoping. I would be more than delighted to host the first gathering?!?!?! Not an association nor just another form as taught in most tournament seminars. Kind of like what the old WU Dang club had orginally in mind. maybe this should post as a new thread?

[Art D]

Pong Li , Great Idea, I think your gym would be nice acomidations for such a gathering. I would respectfuly want to be part of this GET TOGETHER. Lets do it. or pehaps we could me at some beach resort and mix in some r&r? Just an idea.

[Art D]

Pong Li , Great Idea, I think your gym would be nice acomidations for such a gathering. I would respectfuly want to be part of this GET TOGETHER. Lets do it. or pehaps we could me at some beach resort and mix in some r&r? Just an idea.

[Tainan Mantis]

So how did the seminar go?
Did you learn everything on the list?

[yu shan]

the story!

A big success, as for the list, much more! My question to you is why didn`t you Tainan Mantis back up your KF brother and give us a plug? You had plenty of time to give your in-put on our "seminar". Have you forgot your roots? You seem to forget Shr ZhengZhong and where HE has brought you. Only because all we hear is the russian guy, you never give Shr-yi`s name. Why do you not give Shr ZhengZhong credit to where you are in your training? Tell the real story...

[Art D]

Jim, where did that come from? and I'd like to know ,how was it. I'm sure if it was anything like the seminars I've been to w/ pong Li it was great. give us some details .

[Tainan Mantis]

Jim,
Sorry I didn't give you a plug earlier when it would have had meaning to you.
Do you plan on hosting more seminars?

As for the other questions of yours...they are unexpected.
The forum, to me, is a place to share knowledge of information.

Roots...
Since joining here I have learned many new things in my private training.
Some info, such as what I learned from Ilya Profatilov and Robert Hui, I have posted publicly.

Other people have asked that they remain anonymous.
We are just trying to increase our depth of knowledge.

I first learned this lesson from my Wah Lum Sifu who gave me nothing but encouragement in going East to further my studies(Thanks again Sifu).

Since I have been here I have learned this same philosophy from Shrfu Shr who has gone to study with many masters while I have been training with him. In some cases he brought me along.

I have posted stories about Shr Fu and his teachers as well as Shrye Li Hongjie. You saw him while you were here.

Also, it has been posted on the TJPM website. That is the highbrow PM forum.
Some of this info has been published in Steve Cottrell's PM magazine.
That is a mag devoted to PM of all styles.
I'd post a link, but I don't have that computer skill.
I wrote an article about the many types of empty hand and weapon two man sets.

That week you were here I conducted an interview with Li Hongjie. He also spoke about going to study with different masters.
He is the one who encouraged Shr fu to study with 6 Harmony PM master Jiang Hsiangsan.

Next time he travels to the states I'll be sure and let everyone know that his seminars are open to people of all schools.

It would be nice to get a report on what happened from you guys afterwards.

[Joe Mantis]

Hey Guys,

How'd it Go? Sorry I missed it. I bet it was awesome as always.


Tainan,

where can I get a copy of that magazine you mentioned.

Jim,

Drop me an email.

[yu shan]

Kevin

My last post was a bit curt, I apologize. You are a figure renowned and respected on KFO, and my KF Uncle.

As for posts/info on Shr ZhengZhong, you must have alot of stories and info to share, he does have quite the reputation! Is he the fighter we here about...I see it in Shr fu John!

Cross-training in "other" styles. In my previous style this was OK only if it was a crony of this Teacher/Master. Should you "sneak" behind your teacher? Cause I think it really happens in CMA. This being said, I`m very happy training with Pong Lai.

Give my best to Shr fu Shr, and Shrye Li Hongjie.

Shrfu Art

The weekend was great, everyone got there moneys worth, and more! The high intellect of KF and basically the run your ass into the ground! Sound familiar... :)

[Tainan Mantis]

KFO's feature E-Zine article is on this seminar
Good job Darryl!