PM Prefighting Postures

[mantisben]

What is a traditional PM prefighting posture? Sometimes I think prefighting postures are underrated. I believe some prefighting postures make some techniques easier to execute.

Is the "PM Catches Cicada" posture a prefighting posture?

[mantiskilla]

i have heard this question asked before,(of PM) and have actually heard the answer that there is none( dont think the person really knew what they were talking about). I believe it is "PM catches cicada", in cat. :)
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Strain Index (http://strainindex.com)

[BeiTangLang]

Retreating from a cat is a bad choice for a first posture....maybe a midle-stance? :)

[mantiskilla]

agree...i prefer a more agressive stance anyway.:)
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Lovely Wendie99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[Buby]

"i prefer a more agressive stance anyway." - May I ask which stance you prefer and why do you consider it more aggressive?

Thanks in advance,
Buby

[mantiskilla]

i dont do Mantis anymore... but IMO, i find a forward stance to be more "aggressive", weight more evenly distributed, not 70/30 or whatever for cat. hope that answers your question.:)
this is just my preference...i like to go forward. my idea being, " the best defense is a good offense", push the confrontation. i'm not talking about overpowering(6'0 165, not going to overpower much) , unless of course that is the way to go at the time.
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BLOWJOB SWALLOW (http://www.****tube.com/categories/362/swallow/videos/1)

[Buby]

Thank you.

take care,
Buby

[mantisben]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
Retreating from a cat is a bad choice for a first posture....maybe a midle-stance? :)

Are you implying that PM Catches Cicada in a Cat Stance is a bad choice, but PM Catches Cicada from a Middle Stance is good?

Thank you for your input

[PaulLin]

Be Ji Shou stance in 8 step is used to be the most common stance for face off posture. Hollow in front sits all in back. Mainly for attaching purpose.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by PaulLin
Be Ji Shou stance in 8 step is used to be the most common stance for face off posture. Hollow in front sits all in back. Mainly for attaching purpose.

Is the Be Ji Shou Stance the same as the Tiger-Riding Stance/Cat Stance? How are the hands held in Be Ji Shou? Does it look like this:

http://www.8step.com/mantis/images/4-mantis.gif


Mainly for attaching purpose.

Do you mean for "attacking" purposes, or do you mean "attaching" as in "sticking" or "binding" to?

Thank you for any help you can provide.

[mantis108]

If I am not mistaken:

Be Ji Shou (avoid strike hand) = Bi Shi (Closed disposition)= Bei Sai (evasvie stance) = Deur Gang (avoid hardness).

This stance can be done in either 60/40 (kind of like the Xing Yi SanTi Shi) or Tiger Riding/Cat stance. The hand position is the same. This stance is ideal for executing throws & sweeps at the trapping range.

As for attaching, I agree. I would think it is a prudent measure to build a bridge before launching an all out offensive with mantis techniques instead of the probing strategy. The Bi Shi allows one to conserve energy rather wasting it. Just some thoughts.

Mantis108

[mantisben]

Originally posted by mantis108
If I am not mistaken:

Be Ji Shou (avoid strike hand) = Bi Shi (Closed disposition)= Bei Sai (evasvie stance) = Deur Gang (avoid hardness).
The only name I recognize here is "Deur Gang" and I always though this was a 7* PM form, and not a stance.

Any pictures of the stances you listed above?

[Tainan Mantis]

The meaning of this word should be defined as a non-moving stance.
If we agree on this then it can be said that there are no "pre-fighting" postures in PM.

mantisben,
since you recognize duo gang then you can take this is your prefighting posture. It is like the beginning of each road in the 14 roads basic exercisies.

In practice, but not in any forms, the students walk around each other or run around each other with different types of specified footwork.

But this is for training. In practice the student should have the aggression of a wild beast. No time to get a good position like you would see in a sporting competition.
Like a rocketship at blastoff; it's full power all the way.

Incidentally, in Taiwan people consider the throttle of their bikes to be an on-off device. No gradual increase in gas here, just full power go or stop.

A TRUE STORY

I asked the mechanic why my wife's battery kept dying. He said it is because she uses the brake to control her speed while keeping the throttle open all the time.
The brake light was always on and so it kept draining the battery.

So don't settle into a comfy posture, just open her up and let it rip....

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
mantisben,
...don't settle into a comfy posture, just open her up and let it rip....
I like this. :D
I thought there might be a position of the hands and a position of the stance that made it more natural to execute PM techniques.

In Wing Chun, I know they have a particular pre-fighting posture that makes it easier to execute their offensive and defensive techniques. They place their hands along their center-line.

Western boxers don't place their hands along their centerline, because it would be more difficult (not impossible) to execute their western boxing techniques. If you've ever seen a boxing match, you'll notice that they (not all boxers) usually hold their hands close and near their face.

I don't know anything about Judo, but I'll bet that Judo practicioners don't hold their hands up like a Western Boxer. I don't doubt that there are a few, but in general, they don't.

I thought PM might have had a pre-fighting posture making it easier to execute PM techniques of offense and defense. I guess not. I thought one existed but that I just wasn't knowledgeable of it. Is there a slight chance that there is a pre-fighting posture in PM, but most PM practicioners just don't know what it is? :confused:

If a Wing Chun practicioner held his hands up like a Judo practicioner, would it be harder to execute Wing Chun techniques? That may be a question for the Wing Chun forum.

One thing I do know, and that is if a PM pre-fighting posture exists and I don't know it, then I could be missing out on PM techniques BIG TIME!

Comments?

[yu shan]

Thank you TM, I was wondering when someone would comment about this "prefight posture" stuff.

A moving target is difficult to deal with. Your footwork should be constant and deceptive, along with handwork. As long as I can remember, in CMA fighting, you do not fight stationary in a fixed posture. I know this thread is on postures, but what are your hands doing in this prefighting stuff?

"aggression of a wild beast" :)

[mantisben]

Originally posted by yu shan
Thank you TM, I was wondering when someone would comment about this "prefight posture" stuff.

A moving target is difficult to deal with. Your footwork should be constant and deceptive, along with handwork. As long as I can remember, in CMA fighting, you do not fight stationary in a fixed posture. I know this thread is on postures, but what are your hands doing in this prefighting stuff?

Maybe "Prefight posture" isn't the best description of what I'm asking. I don't mean to imply a stationary position at all. Western Boxers are not stationary fighters. Neither are Wing Chun fighters stationary. Street fighters don't even stay stationary. In fact, I can't think of ANY fighting style that teaches a stationary position as a prelude to combat.

Maybe "On-Guard" position is a better word for "Prefight Posture". There are various "On-Guard" positions used in different fighting styles. Wing Chun has theirs, Western Boxing has theirs, Jujitsu has theirs. Does PM have one?

Comments?

[mantis108]

Hi Mantisben,

Yeah, I think On-Guard position is a better term and the correct term. As such, the Bi Shi would be it. IMHO it fully allows all mantis techs to be launch from there. BTW, in a way it is like the on-guard position, Bruce Lee took in "Enter the Dragon" with the Karate guy.

Regards

Mantis108

[yu shan]

Are you moving in this on-guard "position"?

[mantisben]

Originally posted by yu shan
Are you moving in this on-guard "position"?

I've never seen a San Shou, or Karate tournament so I can't speak for what works in San Shou or Tournament combat events. OF COURSE they're not stationary, but in looking at good fighters either in boxing, ufc, or streetfights there isn't ALOT of movement until the fighters start throwing blows at each other. Even less movement as the fight drags on. Fighters like Tito Ortiz (UFC), Rocky Marciano, even Mike Tyson (in his prime). They didn't move around a whole lot when they fought, but when they did, they EXPLODED! This, in my opinion, is proof that a fighter can be effectively elusive and defensive, without a whole lot of movement.

They may move around you to get a feel for how you fight, so they *may* circle a bit, but then BOOM! They explode in agressive combinations of attack.

Even the PM insect doesn't dance around. If you've ever seen 2 PM fighting, they stand in front of each other motionless, and then BOOM! They clash against each other like it is the last clash of their life.

Muhammad Ali is the only fighter I've seen, that could "sting" someone effectively as he "floated like a butterfly".

Of course fighters shouldn't be motionless in combat. But you shouldn't unneccessarily move around and waste energy either.

Comments, criticizems, corrections, and suggestions are all welcome, encouraged, and appreciated. :D

[Art D]

Were you ever told to stand there and not move . Not from me !was this idea of not moveing experenced affter you went to train at the temple?

[Pong Lai]

Most are agreeing that standing in a singel posture waiting for things to happen is not ideal.

Before anyone begins to move they will be starting from an idle posture. For me, my preference is a half horse stance at 45 degree squat (lowering the strike zone) with same wieght ditribution, with hands in a Bi Shou position. From this posture my hand and feet (total body) movement is possible in any direction without hesitation.
Bi Shou is a good hand posture as your hands are open, grabbing, blocking, striking is all simple to react to. Half horse is with the front foot pivoted perpendicular to the rear.

The second I reached this posture, I would be on the prawl.

[18elders]

Your story about the battery dying, did you have another mechanic check it out?, the alternator should be supplying the power once your car has started.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by mantisben


Is the Be Ji Shou Stance the same as the Tiger-Riding Stance/Cat Stance? How are the hands held in Be Ji Shou? Does it look like this:

http://www.8step.com/mantis/images/4-mantis.gif



Do you mean for "attacking" purposes, or do you mean "attaching" as in "sticking" or "binding" to?

Thank you for any help you can provide.

Nope, that is not BeJi Shou. Like mantis108 said, it means avoiding attack hands. The most body weights at the back leg. The reason for that is you are prepare to take care of a strike, mostly using the 12 soft skills. On the other hand, if you have front leg more weighted, then you are supposed to do the 8 hard techniques, they are for attacking, in which you should only do that when you have ensure the chances of opening. So in a pre-fighting situation, you are supposed a situation before you find the open to attack, so it is best in BeJi Shou.

That link you post here is the TangLangShuShe posted by Shyun. He has his back leg in wrong angle, which will not support his power outlet. His back hook is in a wrong position that rather sticking the opponent, it will give opponent a good chance to knock off his balance.

And yes, attaching is what I mean, attaching is what 12 soft techniques all have, it is used in taking care of your opponent's attackes. Attacking comes after the attaching.

And postures should be in every moves that you do, if you can't see postures in every moves that you do, includes prefights, you need to go back to the basic foundation and drill on them more.

[Tainan Mantis]

It was a motorscooter not a car. It has a generator not an alt.
If you would like to come and repair it you are more than welcome.
Mine needs a new suspension system.

Haven't you heard John describe the traffic scene in Taiwan?
He took right to it.
When coming to a red light his motto was,"No cop-no stop."

I could tell lotsa stories but I'm afraid he would tell you his "version" of our HK meeting, so...

[SilentMantis]

From what i was taught, you fight from a middle stance position with your hands up protecting your face. I personally like this on-guard stance because your mobile and able to move with your opponent. From this postion you can move as your opponent moves. For instance if you were fighting a boxer, as he tries to move around (circling) from a middle stance you can cut off his movement and strike. I don't think in mantis we really move around and then strike (like boxers). I think the proper way is to strike move in and out, and around your opponent. Never fighting directly in front him.

[PaulLin]

Hands will be linked to eachother acrossed the center in certain relations, so the doot will not open. One hand will be yin, and the other yang. That is one will be out there and the other one preserves the potential, one will be at nose hight and other will be at waist hight. For example, BeJiShou has the front hand out, at nose hight, and back hand back at waist hight, with opened palms as in BaGua. And the hands should act as 2 sides of one unit rather than 2 separate units.

[Tainan Mantis]

Paul Lin,
Why is the forward hand yin and the rear hand yang?

[mantisben]

Originally posted by PaulLin
Nope, that is not BeJi Shou. Like mantis108 said, it means avoiding attack hands. The most body weights at the back leg. The reason for that is you are prepare to take care of a strike, mostly using the 12 soft skills. On the other hand, if you have front leg more weighted, then you are supposed to do the 8 hard techniques, they are for attacking,...

This sounds like what you are saying in the quote above

* Weight in the rear is used for counter-offensive tactic using the "12 soft skills'.

* Weight in the front is used for offensive 8 hard techniques.

If this is what you are saying, I like this and will explore it's application alot more. Thank you.

...so it is best in BeJi Shou

I still don't know BeJi Shou looks like. Could you post a web-link to a picture of what it looks like?

Thank you for your informative input, especially on the "8 hard/12 soft" methods.

[Pong Lai]

Be Shou: "Rear Hand doesn't depart the front elbow."
With Be Shou you may be in a void stance, half horse, or hill climb for that matter. I thought it describes the positioning of the hands.

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by PaulLin
...one (hand) will be out there and the other one preserves the potential... Paul Lin, please explain the 'preserves potential'. I assume by 'out there' you mean 'out in front'? Is it 'potential to issue power' or just a 'general potential' because it's not committed. The reason I ask: I do Chen, and from my understanding, potential to issue power comes from having a good path (to the ground) and it doesn't matter if the hand's in front or back (i.e. the 'path' can be directed to either, or even some other part of the body, for that matter). If that is not right or if there is more to it, I'd surely like to know. Thanks very much.

[BeiTangLang]

My guess is, regardless of stance, foot position or anything else, whichever hand is in front has less potential for forceful damage as the reserved hand, which has more potential energy for striking due to its distance traveled(potential).
ie., distance to target from the front hands location; 14". One can do a powerful blow from this distance for sure but; distance to target from the rear hand-lets say,28". No matter how I possition myself or stand, I can get more power (momentum & body jing) from the 28" than the 14".
Like I said, this is my guess.
Best wishes,
~BTL

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
My guess is, regardless of stance, foot position or anything else, whichever hand is in front has less potential for forceful damage as the reserved hand, which has more potential energy for striking due to its distance traveled(potential).
ie., distance to target from the front hands location; 14". One can do a powerful blow from this distance for sure but; distance to target from the rear hand-lets say,28". No matter how I possition myself or stand, I can get more power (momentum & body jing) from the 28" than the 14".
Like I said, this is my guess.
Best wishes,
~BTL

Nice guess. I would like to continue more. The potential is addressed to the situation that is already used up. For example, the reatched out hand has less potential to reatch out more, but has high potential to pull back. But depends on the situation, the reatch out hands may not alway be the attacking one and the pull back hand some time can be an attacking hand. This technique is not what you can plan which hand is attack or deflect, it is mainly relying on a balancing/centering sense/felling that you focusing on to automaticly determine without thinking of which one is going to be which. Your center must be strong enough to over come the separation of all body parts in order to do that.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Paul Lin,
Why is the forward hand yin and the rear hand yang?

I didn't say the forward hand yin and the rear hand yang. I have only said one hand will be yin and the other yang.

If you want to indicate the yin and yang of hand, like palm down is yin, palm up is yang, hidden is yin and shown out is yang, I agree with that totally.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Pong Lai
Be Shou: "Rear Hand doesn't depart the front elbow."
With Be Shou you may be in a void stance, half horse, or hill climb for that matter. I thought it describes the positioning of the hands.

That is exactly one important concept in guarding the door. GM Wei has a rhyme: Shou Jie Shou, Lai Wong Tzou. Hou Shou Gon Chien Shou, Gon Shong Chien Shou Shen Wu Yo.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by mantisben
Originally posted by PaulLin
Nope, that is not BeJi Shou. Like mantis108 said, it means avoiding attack hands. The most body weights at the back leg. The reason for that is you are prepare to take care of a strike, mostly using the 12 soft skills. On the other hand, if you have front leg more weighted, then you are supposed to do the 8 hard techniques, they are for attacking,...

This sounds like what you are saying in the quote above

* Weight in the rear is used for counter-offensive tactic using the "12 soft skills'.

* Weight in the front is used for offensive 8 hard techniques.

If this is what you are saying, I like this and will explore it's application alot more. Thank you.

...so it is best in BeJi Shou

I still don't know BeJi Shou looks like. Could you post a web-link to a picture of what it looks like?

Thank you for your informative input, especially on the "8 hard/12 soft" methods.

BeJi Shou is like having the 3rd standing posture with a 5th standing posture legs, in 8 step. You can see the posture pictures posted in prayingmantiskungfu.com. Those pictures are as same as the one in GM Wei's book.

This sounds like what you are saying in the quote above

* Weight in the rear is used for counter-offensive tactic using the "12 soft skills'.

* Weight in the front is used for offensive 8 hard techniques.

If this is what you are saying, I like this and will explore it's application alot more. Thank you.


In most cases, that will be it. There are a very few exceptional cases.


Hey, mantisben,

There is erro on line 162 that disallowed me to post new message, so I have to use here to answer.

The order you find in that site has the stances #4 and #5 reversed. The #5 stance is the mantis catching cicada stance. All #5's in foundation, such as kick, moving steps, and striking techniques, are all of mantis shape/character.

I have e-mailed them to put them in the correct order, but I guess they didn't do that. If you have the book, you will see.

The #4 stance (crossed legs) is used as a transition postion for thowing or kicking, not a pre-fighting postion.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by PaulLin


BeJi Shou is like having the 3rd standing posture with a 5th standing posture legs, in 8 step...

In most cases, that will be it. There are a very few exceptional cases.

On the website www.prayingmantiskungfu.com, I can see how the hands are held in the 3rd standing posture, but the 5th standing posture legs looks like a cross-leg stance, and it is called Yue Han Bu. It would be difficult for me to fight from this stance. Is there a chance that you meant the photo of the 6th posture legs Ba Ma Bu? I believe it is called the Monkey Stance in 7* PM.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by mantisben


On the website www.prayingmantiskungfu.com, I can see how the hands are held in the 3rd standing posture, but the 5th standing posture legs looks like a cross-leg stance, and it is called Yue Han Bu. It would be difficult for me to fight from this stance. Is there a chance that you meant the photo of the 6th posture legs Ba Ma Bu? I believe it is called the Monkey Stance in 7* PM.

I couldn't make a reply earlier because of an error:
parse error in /usr/local/etc/httpd/htdocs/forum/newreply.php on line 162

So I edit one earlier message, but prabably you don't aware of it. So I post here again:

The order you find in that site has the stances #4 and #5 reversed. The #5 stance is the mantis catching cicada stance. All #5's in foundation, such as kick, moving steps, and striking techniques, are all of mantis shape/character.

I have e-mailed them to put them in the correct order, but I guess they didn't do that. If you have the book, you will see.

The #4 stance (crossed legs) is used as a transition postion for thowing or kicking, not a pre-fighting postion.

Additionaly, if you use 6th stance, we did that in fists rather in palm. The different of 6th and 5th(well, they put that on 4th in the site) is that the front foot supporting of a poke option. The poke is done with fist.