Is sparring necessary?

[kieofwoo]

Wing Chun is known for it's lack of sparring. Whilst I would agree that sparring shouldn't feature from day one, what about 2 years down the line? Wouldn't it help some?

[Mr. Bao]

Sparring is necessary if you want to spar with your attacker. But if you want to end the attacker's means of harming you. You do wing chun on him and hopeful after that he won't want to spar with you. Seriously, sparring can be enlightening but it takes foundation first to be good in sparring.


Bao

[anerlich]

Wing Chun is known for it's lack of sparring.

Known by whom? Our school has four weekly sparring slots, not counting the extra some people do outside of class.

IMO you need some form of soft free flowing practice fighting to develop flow and effective application of technique, and harder contact with appropriate protection for tempering and learning to continue to operate effectively while being hit and under pressure.

[Atleastimnotyou]

i have heard that wing chun was known for lots of things, but "lack of sparring"? that is the first time i heard that one...
Sparring is useful so you can see if you can apply what you learned.... down the road, not at first.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by kieofwoo
Wing Chun is known for it's lack of sparring.

Originally posted by anerlich
Our school has four weekly sparring slots, not counting the extra some people do outside of class.

Originally posted by Mr. Bao
Sparring is necessary if you want to spar with your attacker
As illustrated above, sparring has little to do with style, but everything to do with school of thought. No traditionalist would condone sparring - at any point in training.

[Wingman]

It might be helpful if we define "sparring" first. Maybe the reason why people can't agree whether WC practice sparring or not, is because they have different ideas on what sparring is.

When sparring, do you use any techniques even if it is not necessarily WC? or do you stick to WC techniques?

Who do you spar? WC students from your own club/school? or WC students from other clubs/schools? or other martials artists from different styles and from different schools?

How far do you go with sparring? light contact? no holds barred?

[S.Teebas]

Is sparring necessary?

Yes.


No traditionalist would condone sparring - at any point in training.

Not in training, but in testing!

[Mithrandir]

Hi Everyone,

For the sake of arguments can we all agree that chi sau is not sparring?

Assuming that is out of the way, I believe it boils down to belief systems and the goals of the practitioner involved. I myself do not advocate sparring per say...I don't see the point of it (for myself that is). I don't seek trophies nor do I feel the need to validate what I have been taught in what I view to be "a laboratory environment". Regardless of what transpires in the sparring session in my opinion it is a skewed result due to the fact that there are rules in place. If you add gloves, shin guards, elbow pads, head gear, etc., etc., the situation is further compounded to render it so far beyond the scope of reality that it is, IMHO, an effort in futility. I do see the value in the examination of principles and the overall integrity of one's structure during such a sparring session (meaning assessment by one's teacher afterwards), but as far as true judgement of a person's "fighting ability" I find such experiments to be lacking in realism.

What do you guys think?

Just some thoughts

[mun hung]

Sparring becomes an essential part of training which helps to develop many different things.

Alot of different ways of doing it though.

[Mithrandir]

Mun Hung,

I agree that it can be a very useful gauge for checking certain factors when assessing one's weaknesses while utilizing their structure against a "live" opponent. I just think people are deluding themselves at times when thinking that a sparring session is indicative of the results they would attain in "jumped" at the "corner store" by a band of thugs.

Regards,
Mithrandir

[kieofwoo]

Thanks for all the opinion guys/gals.
So to sum up so far

Sparring?:
I would define sparring as 2 people attacking each other in the controlled environment of a class.
Hopefully, they would be trying to apply the skills that they have learnt.



Is it Necessary?:
"No traditionalist would condone sparring"
"Sparring becomes an essential part of training"

Huh?
I've noticed that some "modern" WC styles such as WT, have no sparring ever.

So basically I'm still confused :rolleyes:



OK, so how about I rephrase the question:
Do you need to have sparred to be able to use WC to defend yourself in real life?
Or to put it another way, does sparring help in the application of WC?

[mun hung]

Mithrandir - I agree.

kieofwoo - No to the first, and yes to the second.

[anerlich]

As illustrated above, sparring has little to do with style, but everything to do with school of thought. No traditionalist would condone sparring - at any point in training.

If you are implying I'm not a traditionalist, you're right. Thanks!

A real traditionalist wouldn't learn the 6.5 point pole because it came in late, and would probably frown on teaching WC to males because Ng Mui only taught Yim Wing Chun.

I've yet to understand how a tradition would help in escaping the aforementioned tooled up crackhead.

[kieofwoo]

Originally posted by mun hung

kieofwoo - No to the first, and yes to the second.


So what you're saying that that you don't need to spar but it helps?

That's makes least sense of all!!
If it helps, why do so many people ignore it?
That would suggest that it's helps very little, or that many people aren't realising their potential in WC!


Which takes us back to my original question, is sparring necessary???

[kieofwoo]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip

No traditionalist would condone sparring - at any point in training.


Why not?

[teazer]

IMO, sparring can help train a few things. Closing the gap, reactions against the unexpected etc.
It has it's downsides & often results in unrealistic techniques best on the rules, equipment & general situation. However, if you keep an awareness of it's possible problems, it can be valuable. There are other alternatives to regular sparring that are worth doing which give more of the premise of a fight. Especially when you keep in mind the participants' differing goals.
Personally I only 'spar' against non-WC people. There are too many other useful things to practice within one's own school.

[Spectre]

Originally posted by Enter The Whip
No traditionalist would condone sparring - at any point in training.


Originally posted by kieofwoo
Why not?


Sparring has the potential to promote bad habits. One needs to remember that while sparring comes closer to a real fight than doing forms or chi sao, it still is not a real fight with the same levels of adrenaline. Each person also has an idea of what the other fighter is about - which usually never happens in a real fight.

I think that sparring can be a useful tool in determining what you may need more work on as long as you don't gauge your actual performance in a fight with the results from sparring.

Spending that time on forms however allows you to refine your movements and make them precise. In a real fight, the levels of andrenaline tend to slow your motor skills and precision. The work that you do on the forms will help to make your techniques AS PRECISE AS POSSIBLE.

If you are sparring with shoddy basics then you run the risk of incorporating errors into your technique or delivery. This time would be better spent on the forms and chi sao.

The key is to recognize what is not working in sparring and work on your weaknesses. The hard part is knowing whether your technique actually worked or if you just got lucky. If you just got lucky, then there is no guarantee it will work for you in the future.

Keep in mind that Enter The Whip never said that they were a traditionalist. You asked if sparring helped with WC. It may or may not. It can help OR hurt you. All that was being said is that traditionalists would not support sparring. This means that sparring is not based on the style or art, but the individual and whether they feel they need it or not.

Kevin

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by kieofwoo
Why not?
Because sparring has NOTHING to do with what Wing Chun is for. If you need to spar to test your Wing Chun, your priorities misaligned, and your concept of Wing Chun distorted.

[kieofwoo]

Now don't get me wrong here, I'm asking these question to clear issues in my mind.
I happen to have chosen a school with no sparring period.
I never expected or wished to spar.


Spectre - you probably missed the start of the thread but the question was would sparring be of help in the later stages of training?, I said "2 years down the line".

Obviously with a system like WC, it would be stupid to spar from day one.


Everyone -
What I was curious about was whether people with more experience of the system than myself thought that sparring could be of use once the basics had been developed. Not even necessarily as part of a class but in your own private time.

The main reason being that I have various friends that train in other systems. They have suggested we get together and spar sometime, as a means to helping each other improve. Call it a form of cross training if you like, but the idea is definitely a positive one.

I have already said no way until I get to a stage where I am comftable in mind and body with the WC system, and have a solid grasp of the basics. But what then? Would it hurt? Would it help?

Just thought I'd test the water before I start sticking body parts in :D



Kie

[kieofwoo]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip

Because sparring has NOTHING to do with what Wing Chun is for. If you need to spar to test your Wing Chun, your priorities misaligned, and your concept of Wing Chun distorted.


Mr Whip,

Whilst I understand that sparring is unecessary to develop Wing Chun, I am wondering whether there are lessons to be learnt from outside our walls.
Perhaps I am young and yet to be jaded by the bright lights of the 'other systems' promising treats they cannot deliver - but somewhere in my heart is the notion that I can look without being drawn into the pretty but burning fire.
Again maybe my foolishness stems from my experience, maybe I am just greedy, but I believe that one day I will be able to withdraw my hand before it gets too hot.


Yours With Youth's Endeavour,




A Young Grasshopper

[old jong]

True Wing Chun skill comes from chi sau.

[yenhoi]

WC is a training tool for your arms, hands, body, legs, and even energy, etc.

Sparring is necessary.

[teazer]

I'd say if students are progressing well, they should be able to do some sparring with other styles after 3 or 4 months. It depends on their natural ability + how fast your school throws new info at them. Students enjoy the competition + it's nice to get it out of the way before settling down to more realistic defense training. The techniques they use should be severely limted to a few key moves and trained as drills in advance. So long as they are fighting with wc, no problem. If they start looking like kickboxing, it's too late!

[BeiKongHui]

Those who don't spar often have an unrealistic outlook on fighting and are pitifully easy to beat by someone who does spar. Chi Sao and one step drills do not prepare you for fighting by themselves. You have to have some free fighting to simulate (as closely and safely as possible) real life confrontation. Those who claim sparring promotes bad habits clearly do not know how to spar or understand it's use as a training tool. That's like saying Chi Sao promotes bad habits because the positioning leaves you open to takedowns but as we all know you don't chi sao or spar in a real fight but they are great training tools to prepare us for one.

Excuses I hear from so called "Tradionalists" (a name I consider insulting) for not sparring rank right up there with the old "I can't use eye pokes and crotch grabs so I can't fight in NHB" cop out.

However, if you are a beginner then you have some time before you need to start working on sparring. You need to have become comfortable with the system and to have been doing Chi Sao for a while first.

[fa_jing]

Sorry to burst your bubbles guys. Yip Man used to stuff his and his partner's clothes with hay and spar full force, back in Fatshan. Sorry I don't remember the reference, it may be out on the web somewhere. Renee?

P.S. BKH is correct.

[BeiKongHui]

Sparring is not the place to "test" your Wing Chun or fighting skills any more than any other drill is. The only way to "test" fighting skills is to fight. Sparring is a learning environment.

[Chum Kil]

I believe it would be best for some of you people to read Marc MacYoung's website. Here's my take on the subject. Sparring is like fighting or dueling with rules. If you do this on the streets the chances of you and the other guy going to jail, if the cops happen to get their in time are 99.9 % your both going in. Now Self-Defense is something totally different, which is how I train my Wing Chun (reaction/reflex) is to immediatly use effective action to stop the other person and get the hell out of there. This is a life or death situation. The minute you start engaging in a fight/duel with the other person you are considered the bad guy in the eyes of the law. Fighting is illegal, Self-defense is not. Please read Marc's website, it has open my eyes.

[red5angel]

You guys have to be kidding about it not being necessary to spar right? Maybe your definition of sparring is different then some of ours?

[BeiKongHui]

Sparring is like fighting or dueling with rules.

Once again Sparring is not fighting any more than playing Lop Sao is. it's an exersice to build attributes. Why do tradionalists refuse to accept this fact? What are they afraid of?

[12345]

Originally posted by Mithrandir
Hi Everyone,

For the sake of arguments can we all agree that chi sau is not sparring?
Just some thoughts

No we can't. What some of us class as chi sao others call sparring - this has come up on other threads.

For those that are against sparring can you tell me why - what is inherent in your definition of sparring that trains bad habits?

Any answer that involves saying you have to limit techniques or pull strikes will also rule out chi sao as equally damaging - in fact it would rule out anything other than no rules fighting.

[yenhoi]

But you wont be around to say I told you so if you seriously think forms, chi sao, and partner drills will prepare you for any kind of serious, the-other-guy-WANTS-to-hurt-or-KILL-you confrotation on the streets or anywhere else violent things sometimes happen.

If all your intrested in is self-defense, then you need very little physical or kung-fu training. You need to look at ways to handle adrenaline dump, environmental and situational awareness, common sense - like parking your car in well-lit areas, and not being on the dark, scary streets alone, and being a bright, SD oriented person, you would goto some sort of kali teacher or something and learn about not being killed in a knife encounter.
Thats self-defense.

Wing Chun is to train you to fight.

[TjD]

Originally posted by Mithrandir
Hi Everyone,

For the sake of arguments can we all agree that chi sau is not sparring?



chi sau is not sparring, however if you do wing chun, a part of sparring is chi sau

chi sau is for the instant you make contact. sparring can train your ability to let go and have your chi sau take over.

i dont think sparring is good until someone has a firm grounding in chi sau. if you want to spar in wing chun, you have to get to a level of chi sau where things just happen, then sparring will let you learn to utilize your chi sau in a real sense. it also trains ranging and some other skills that arent gained by solely doing chi sau.

wing chun definately has sparring, its just ****her down the line of training than in other arts. you have to get to a point where you can actually use your wing chun before you should start sparring

[yenhoi]

Chi-sau is not something you do outside of the comfort of your home, kwoon, dojo, or other training environment.

Chi-sau is a training tool, it teaches (among other things) primarily sensitivity.

Why would you 'bridge-the-gap' to your opponent and then play hands with him?

[TjD]

chi sau trains you for the moment of contact, so you can react and end the fight near-instantly if you have a high level of chi sau skill

you dont bridge the gap and DO chi sau, you bridge the gap and USE chi sau

[old jong]

Chi sau is not just a tool to learn sensitivity.It is also a tool to learn attacking and defensive lines,timing,angles,deflecting forces,use of the energy,awareness of the opponent balance and intent,etc,etc...All of these are real and effective tools for fighting,not playing Bruce Lee!...

[yenhoi]

IMO you dont 'use' chi-sau, you use your hands, chi-sau is a training method.

Old Jong-

I agree.

[old jong]

You will use the results of your training in a fight not a training method!...;) Chi sau gives the patient practitioner results that are not dependant on fixed patterns,feints,moving around,looking mean,terrain,clothings,etc...
If you have to fight,don't sparr....fight! The better your Wing Chun,the better you will be able to fight.

[Mithrandir]

Please allow me to clarify my position. Sparring is a very useful tool for the evaluation of various skill sets. What I failed to mention earlier is that I was primarily thinking about competitive "light" sparring as generally found in tournaments. If you are acting on the advice of your sifu then that is yet another matter entirely. I do believe that whatever the results in sparring good or bad isn't necessarily a reflection of how a situation would go in the "street".

Chi Sau is technically a form of sparring although I tend to think of it more as a training tool.

Regardless of what my opinions are I reserve the right to change my opinions in the future should I discover that I am in error. I am a relative beginner afterall. ;)

Just some thoughts

[kieofwoo]

ok so to sum up a bit again:

Chi sao, sparring and fighting are all different things.

Being good in one won't necessarily help you in the others, but depending on the individual, may help.

The only way to guarantee getting good at each one of these is to practice that one in particular.


And all of this depends on having first reached realtive mastery of the basics.



Is this a fair conclusion?

[Sharky]

yes it is 100% necessary

[yuanfen]

BeiKongHui:sez
Once again Sparring is not fighting any more than playing Lop Sao is. it's an exersice to build attributes. Why do tradionalists refuse to accept this fact? What are they afraid of?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which traditionalists are you referring to? There are many traditionalists who distinguish between chi sao and fighting.
Real fighting except for actual unavoidable self defense is against the law- at least in the USA.
Sparring with gloves in a conventional sense is even further removed from fighting,if wing chun principles are to be used...(unless you really know what you are doing and you know wing chun in great depth)
You have real fighting and various forms of simulation

[straight blast]

yes it is 100% necessary

Like he said.

When I moved to Muay Thai from a couple years JingWu I got soundly trounced...not because my JingWu sucked, but because since we didn't spar I had a very unrealistic idea of my exact range, body movements under stress, etc. I can remember a couple of sparring matches where I had the guy lined up perfectly for a gwa choy and missed! After a month of sparring (both JingWu and Muay Thai) I no longer missed.

That said I also learned something else from sparring that no amount of air drills will teach you, though Chi Sao will to a degree, and that was learning to be able to see when a person will move. Being able to judge by body language when they will kick, punch, lunge, whatever. You simply cannot learn this without hands on experience. I realise that in the perfect Wing Chun world we'd have our guards up, be in stance, etc and calmly use our WC to dismember the bad guy...but I've found (like many before me) that being able to determine someone's intentions before the s*it hits the fan is worth spending some time on.

Plus sparring teaches you to take hits. This will happen. If you think you will never get hit then you are living in a fantasy world. If you've never been hit you have no idea how you're going to react to someone's fist hitting you on the nose, in the gut, etc.

Sparring is not the be all and end all. But a style that can't be tested is a style that can't be trusted.

[yuanfen]

straight blast
Christian KungFu Disciple
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes it is 100% necessary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Like he said.

When I moved to Muay Thai from a couple years JingWu I got soundly trounced...not because my JingWu sucked, but because since we didn't spar I had a very unrealistic idea of my exact range, body movements under stress, etc. I can remember a couple of sparring matches where I had the guy lined up perfectly for a gwa choy and missed! After a month of sparring (both JingWu and Muay Thai) I no longer missed.
((Dont have any idea how much wing chun you really learned))

That said I also learned something else from sparring that no amount of air drills will teach you, though Chi Sao will to a degree, and that was learning to be able to see when a person will move. Being able to judge by body language when they will kick, punch, lunge, whatever. You simply cannot learn this without hands on experience.

(( I have no idea how much good chi sao you really did))

I realise that in the perfect Wing Chun world we'd have our guards up, be in stance, etc

((???????))) Yuanfen -non christian non disciple- in contrast to straight blasts own stated ID)))

[tiger_1]

my friends sparing in traning its important for many reasons but wing chunger must have some level in traning and must have good strategy for timing and atention in sparing for ewry level - just my oppinion and friendly tiger_1:)

[kieofwoo]

Just out of interest, any wingchunners out there that have used their skills in a real fight?

And if so, did you ever spar?

What would be really interesting is if someone did no sparring and then got in a real fight, and then did some sparring and got in a real fight again!!

Anyone fit the bill?

[straight blast]

I'm sure you had a point...care to share it?

[relax]

theres a reason why everybody says kung fu sucks,

from the looks of it, half of you guys do not spar at all.


Do you know why nobody says boxing sucks? because they spar every single class, there is not one class do they not go at each other and bruising each other up.


I can NOT believe some of you guys do not spar, I hope none of you get into a fight or you are about to get ass kicked so bad.


My god my god... This thread lays down the reason why. Kung fu/ Wing Chun SUCKS.

50% of the people HAS 0 EXPERIENCE in any kind of fighting no matter if its light sparing.


SCARY.

[Neurotic]

Heya,

IMHO, Sparring is very important for developing dynamic footwork, positioning, distance, stragety and the ability to bridge the gap between leg and arm range.

As we all know, footwork and position is half the battle won.

While its all nice when we start off at Contact, often we're just not going to be that lucky :p

My 2c

Neurotic

[straight blast]

I can NOT believe some of you guys do not spar, I hope none of you get into a fight or you are about to get ass kicked so bad

I'm inclined to agree with you on that, but as to nobody saying boxing sucks? Boxing cops more flak than most due to the fact that they only fight with fists. Man I boxed for years and even I heard the sh!t that got layed on boxers.

Other than that, good troll!

[UltimateFighter]

The guy is not a troll. The main reason Wing Chun has had so little success is that in the beginning chi sau was seen as being enough to learn to cope with 'real fighting'. That has BLATENTLY been proven wrong. In anyone seriosuly believes that you can learn to figth playing chi-sau all day, you are in for a big surprise.
I read an interview with Emin Boztepe recentle where he stated that 'Chi-sau is just a method of relaxing the limbs'.

It is not about some strange energy manipulation or any other ****. It is about staying relaxed and increasing sensitivity so that you can react instantly to the oponents moves. It is a TRAINING DRILL. No more.

You need sparrring. Wing chun literiture advocates sparring. Without it, you are just playing a hand game removed from the reality of fighting.

[old jong]

Yes,chi sau is a drill!...But it is IMO the best drill to ingrain and learn how to use Wing Chun motions and timings. San sau is an other drill when you practice responding to various attacks from a certain distance but the instant contact is made...Chi sau kick in again!
Using chi sau skill in a fight does not involve "rolling hands"!!!...It means using the skill obtained in chi sau practice.You intercept the attack,you stick,deflect,move,disrupt the opponent balance,strike,whatever.

[Daredevil]

Argh, I thought these "traditional guys don't spar" folks had all went away of late. Apparently they haven't.

Sparring is absolutely necessary to acquiring fighting skills.

Sure, some skills must be worked on in other drills. Sparring is something you really have to do later on, to get a real feel for the techniques, range, timing, etc. Also, learning to get hit in sparring is very important and it is a very important tool in developing the correct mental attitude.

What we define as sparring is a relevant question. I know it has created confusion in the past. What I'm talking about is a semi- to full-contact bout with non-choreographed moves -- a controlled free for all, with common sense being the limit for your techniques and power.

I firmly believe -- within the context of CMA -- that you need to work your way up to sparring and not merely jump straight into it. Though in small doses I think it's an excellent reminder towards showing what you really are training at any stage.

[EnterTheWhip]

Sparring is an EXCELLENT tool to develop one's "patty cake" fighting skills, and is necessary to compliment one's "patty cake" chi sau.

However, for those preparing for REAL life-threatening situations, there is no room for sparring in his training.

[Sui]

whip,does cross hands count?

has your life been threatened to know the true meaning of what you say?

[straight blast]

Sparring is an EXCELLENT tool to develop one's "patty cake" fighting skills, and is necessary to compliment one's "patty cake" chi sau

Yeah, some of us just play "patty cake" harder than others I guess :rolleyes: Three broken bones in six months from my pattycaking.

It's funny how only those who don't spar advocate against it. It's nothing to be scared of guys. Give it a try before condemning it. Who knows, you may just do what the rest of us have and learn something.

If not, enjoy your 'dry land swimming'. :D

[Frank Exchange]

Daredevil wrote:

>> What we define as sparring is a relevant question. I know it has created confusion in the past. What I'm talking about is a semi- to full-contact bout with non-choreographed moves -- a controlled free for all, with common sense being the limit for your techniques and power. <<

The above description is what we would simply call "free" chisao, which is a natural extension of chisao, which practioners work their way up to, over a period of years. We have the same definitions, but just call it different things.

No wonder there is such confusion! :)

[BeiKongHui]

Sparring is an EXCELLENT tool to develop one's "patty cake" fighting skills, and is necessary to compliment one's "patty cake" chi sau.


He, he... if I ever have a serious fight with another Wing Chun guy I hope he shares your attitude. :D His face will be playing "patty cake" with the pavement.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Sparring is an EXCELLENT tool to develop one's "patty cake" fighting skills, and is necessary to compliment one's "patty cake" chi sau.

However, for those preparing for REAL life-threatening situations, there is no room for sparring in his training.

:confused: :confused: Are you saying you don't do chi sao either?

Or you just practice Gun Fu??

[fa_jing]

OR, maybe patty cake is an excellent developmental drill. But nothing beats thumby wars. :D

[chessGMwannabe]

sparring is another form of land swimming. I would contend that I skilled wingchunners would beat the boxer before he knew the fight started. maybe useful for developing some attributes sparring is, but there are different ways of developing them. it's definately the worst for trying to guage your skill level, out of anything. goves and rules mess it up. a more accurate test would be to try upping the energy level of your chisau against more experienced students or teachers, and see if you can preserve your balance. not how many hits you can sneak in. real fights should be over in 30 secconds, or avoided before they start.
just MHO

[rogue]

Yeah, you tell them brother, boxers sux!:p

[yuanfen]

chessgmwannabe-- have you seen the good ones spar at Madison Gym in Phoenixor Gene Lewis's training center in Mesa or where Jirov trains in Scottsdale or where carbajal's folks train in south mountain?
I think that wc is superb,, but sometimes we losea sense of proportion and reality and underestimate other folks in boxing, wrestling and jujutsu.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yuanfen
chessgmwannabe-- have you seen the good ones spar at Madison Gym in Phoenixor Gene Lewis's training center in Mesa or where Jirov trains in Scottsdale or where carbajal's folks train in south mountain?
I think that wc is superb,, but sometimes we losea sense of proportion and reality and underestimate other folks in boxing, wrestling and jujutsu.
Hallelujah. Can I get an Amen? :)

May I ask if visiting these gyms is how you inculcate the reality in your school without putting on gloves and having your students slug it out? (Seriously). :) I'm pretty sure you don't do that, but you have some way of letting them experience it. Or, do you see them going outside for tournaments or other arts that test their mental toughness?

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Hi Grendel--- no no--- I dont have students put on gloves and have them slug it out. They would learn bad habits.
When they are ready after lots of chi sao- without gloves or pads and with wing chun control-
they gor sao and we go over what they did or didnt do
and then gor sao again. Not for beginners... you have to bring people along as they evolve.

[BeiKongHui]

sparring is another form of land swimming. I would contend that I skilled wingchunners would beat the boxer before he knew the fight started.

Ouch! Do I see a painful reality check in someone's future? ;)

[rogue]

Rogue- they do? Oh I don't believe that Joy, but I didn't want the poor fellow to feel that he was all alone in his fantasyland. ;)

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by crimsonking
What is collectively referred to as chi-sao is and should be the majority of wing chun practice - however, one vital skill is not trained in chi-sao - bridging the gap, and this should be practiced at least as much as chi-sao for students in their first few years. This skill should be learned using some sort of structured framework - NOT free sparring. Free sparring trains exactly the opposite of what good wing chun should be. You got it, brother...

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by straight blast
Yeah, some of us just play "patty cake" harder than others I guess. Three broken bones in six months from my pattycaking. Perhaps an evaluation of your training method is necessary. Broken bones bears no significance to proper training. It's exactly what you wrote above - tougher patty cake is still patty cake.

[Sui]

sorry for my ignorance enter the whip but what of crossing hands?

and has your life been threatened to know the true meaning of what you say?

i believe sparrining has many perspectives to your patter cake,even patter cake can be fighting to a child is it any less to bridge the gap[before the open]

sui

[Rolling_Hand]

Sui - Are you still a Bak Mei fighter?

Chut Dim Moy Fa won't save you here, watch your centerline, many real cowboys here!!!

[Sui]

ok chap cya later

sui:)

[aussielung]

i personaly think sparring is a good way of practicing your techniques. idealy a person learning a martial art should be able to use it, but not sparring in training means you may not be able to use it on a resistant apponent. what i mean by that is if you had to defend your self on the street and you had never used your training on an apponent in class there is a risk that you could freeze up and forget your techniques when you realy needed them. so the benifit of controled sparring is more psychological than physical. but that's just my oppinion.

that said, sparring is in no way the most important part of training and my sifu would prefer that his students didn't start sparring in class until there in there third year of training. i personaly think that a person shouldn't free spar (continues sparring if you prefere to call it that) until they have a solid sil lim tao, before then they should only do chi sau and controled sparring (one steps forward with a single technique and the other side steps with a single counter attack, then back to start possition).