advanced sil lim tao

[superdog]

Hello i was just wondering if anybody knows about william cheungs advanced sil lim tao and what it consists of if you could help me it would be much help thank you.

[Atleastimnotyou]

sorry, i have never heard of "advanced" sil lim tao.
But reading that did make me chuckle.

thanks

[TjD]

well, i think it would probably be nice if people could show a little respect for other kinds of wing chun, and im neither a moderator nor a practicioner of william cheungs wing chun :)

from what ive heard, the advanced siu lim tau some footwork for a beginner to train

having the footwork in a form at an early level might be nice to aid in teaching people applications of wing chun to beginners
ie. someone attacks with a punch, you step in and do tan da

however, i dont know much of anything on this subject :)

[Chum Kil]

Yes, advanced SLT does add a little bit of footwork and a few added hand techniques.

[Rolling_Hand]

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well, i think it would probably be nice if people could show a little respect for other kinds of wing chun, and im neither a moderator nor a practicioner of william cheungs wing chun
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Yes, TWC is a good system and people should show a little respect for other schools. Only a few self-claimed wing chun experts are peeping Tom at the key-hole of other schools and bad-mouthing about them.

Remember a sense of humor does not mean that you tell them joke, it means that you laugh at them. Does this make any sense to anyone? I guess not ...hahaha!

[teazer]

It certainly adds content. In the context of Cheung's system it probably makes more sense than to those WC people outside of it.

[kungfu cowboy]

it's annoying how annoying PC is.

[OdderMensch]

you know kung fu cowboy, it realy annoys me when people are annoyed by political corectness.





:D

[Mr. Bao]

I can speak about advanced siu lum tao because I was a past student of Victor Parlati in NYC.

Superdog, Advance Siu Lum Tao contains minor stepping back footwork, and hands block. It is the only know SLT that contains footwork within Yip Man's students. From what I gathered advance Siu Lum Tao was only taught to trust worthy students.

Personally I do not agree with the ideas of William Cheung not his foot work theory. But I wish you luck anyhow. Please always research everything about the wing chun system. Just because someone said this or that, please don't believe until you yourself witness it. Always ask the hard questions? Oh yeah, when you read William Cheung's story on traditional wing chun, think critically and ask your yourself the hard questions such as, "How can Dr Jan Leung's sons be driven out by Money Exchanger Chan when he learned the inferior form of wing chun?"

I do not mean to cause trouble nor do I want to continue any discussion about william cheung. I am just a skeptic.


Bao

[old jong]

I always wondered why you go from "basic" SLT to "advanced" SLT!...There should be some kind of "intermediate" SLT between those two logicaly!...;) ...Eh?...:)

[Rolling_Hand]

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"How can Dr Jan Leung's sons be driven out by Money Exchanger Chan when he learned the inferior form of wing chun?"--from Bao
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Bao,

Sifu Cheung had explained that story on Black Belt many years ago. One of the reasons Leung Jan's younger son was a young and inexperience boy at that time...hope this would help. If anyone truly wants to know more about this, why not contact Sifu Cheung himself?

Rgds

Roger

[Mr. Bao]

Roger,

Greetings and good health, thank you for your post. I have heard that before and read many things said by Sibak Cheung. I have been to his seminars and I have heard the story many times over.

I still have more hard questions, but I don't want to turn this into a political forum and I really don't care who study what from whom or if my wing chun is modified for apes or other the authentic wing chun style came from a biracial chinese and black
Jesus, himself. In the end, it is all meaningless and what should matter is your own ability. As long as I believe in what i am doing and everyone is doing what they believe in with passion without bad mouthing anyone and being disrepectful. I say, "let a brother get a table dance."

All in all, to the tell the truth asking William Cheung is good as asking Yip Man right now. Surely, I can't know for certain but to each their own. It is up to people to make their own choices about the truth.

Be well.

Bao

[anerlich]

In TWC, the lineage from which I come, two versions of SLT are practiced. The "basic" SLT is performed entirely in neutral stance, with tight hand movements, especially the huen saos.

"Advanced" SLT uses a larger radius rotation on the huen sao, includes some stepping in the second section, plus an extra section and a couple of extra moves in the final section.

This has nothing to do with the alleged "secret" footwork that some (not me) attribute to William Cheung. The form is taught to all students once they reach a certain, not particularly advanced, level, before they are taught Chum Kil. Maybe after about six months.

At my school all students are "trusted" until they prove themselves unworthy, so I don't know how that "only taught to trusted students" assertion is relevant here.

"Advanced" is just a name for it, probably an unfortunate one, and I've never taken it to imply that it's better than anything done by other lineages. Those who get their panties in a bunch over such are paranoid. William Cheung has a lot to answer for when it comes to turning Wing Chun history to his advantage, and I don't believe his stories either, but this is not part of it.

Some may regard "ASLT" as a peculiar way to teach the style, but I'm sure that there lineages have their own pecadilloes that appear equally weird to an outsider.

atleastimnotred5angel, I'm glad you got a chuckle. I got a much bigger one looking the voluminous rubbish people posted on this subject when it's obvious they know stuff all about it.

[old jong]

A previous Sifu of mine had created a form he called the "modified" form,witch was made of elements of the three hand forms.I have heard of a few other teachers who did the same.Every lines have their little special things.Nothing wrong in this as long as it serve Wing Chun principles and spirit without transforming it into something else.
The main thing is not trying to pass these things for "big secrets"straight from the other side of a well known closed door!;) :D

[Atleastimnotyou]

I never really understood why anyone wants to add new things to wing chun. IMO it doesn't need to be changed. It's kinda like an Art major adding more color to one of Picasso's paintings, they're better off leaving it alone.

[yuanfen]

One has to know a lot in order to understand the limits of a
subject and to understand what is a real change and what is a representation. Isnt that so?

[yuanfen]

One has to understand a subject well enough to know the demarcation between real change and varieties of interpretation
before rushing to judgement.
Some Fascists would paint over Picasso's Guernica if they could.

[fa_jing]

I learned ASLT from my first teacher--that's a good form. To me, the advanced sil lim tao is when you do regular SLT for a long time, over ten minutes, or if you do it on one leg.

[Neurotic]

Heya,

For ASLT, alot of the major differnt points I think have been covered (least as I have learnt it), but to recap/look at more:

1. The full steps back with fut soa and tan soa, along with the steps back into neutral stance.

2. The larger hun soa, which rotate at the elbow point, rather than the wrist point.

3. The forward jut soa (rather than straight downward motion).

4. The Hun soa, before the clearing of the centerline almost at the end of the form.

There are many reasons/applications for each of these movements... but those are the major physical differences.

Hope that helps you out.

Stupid question - but, why do you ask about it?

Neurotic

[anerlich]

It's kinda like an Art major adding more color to one of Picasso's paintings

If you regard Wing Chun as a "work of art" then that POV may be relevant.

If you regard it as a scientific method of learning to fight, then continued evolution and different interpretations are almost guaranteed.

Were the people who added the pole to the previous WC curriculum desecrating the "work of art"?

Should Leung Jan have gone off and taught a version without the forms later in life (Gu Lao)?

Some stories about Yip Man have him constantly refining things and moving them around.

It's not like a single Picasso, it's more like a piece of folk music or a folk tale which has undergone constant embellishment and of which many versions exist.

The "masterpiece" depends on who is viewing it and when.

What might be "new" and what might be "rediscovered" or "interpreted differently"?

[anerlich]

The larger hun soa, which rotate at the elbow point, rather than the wrist point.

To my mind, the point of rotation is at the shoulder, though there is movement at the elbow and wrist as well.

[Neurotic]

Originally posted by anerlich


To my mind, the point of rotation is at the shoulder, though there is movement at the elbow and wrist as well.

>laughs<

I s'pose it all boils down to personal differences in the form - one may take a small approach, as he invisiges a smaller circular path is needed for application, others may take a wider path, as that seems appropriate for the application they invisage.

;o)

It always amazes me how everyone essentially does the same form, but each of us have our own understandings.

Neurotic

[TjD]

large huen sau? how does this work? any applications of this to describe it better?

if my school uses one i've never seen it :)

[Neurotic]

I s'pose it seems silly to differentiate huen soas into larger and smaller.

One does not say that a pak soa is different because it angle up, down or forward, as opposed to straight across. It is still simply a pak soa.

>thinks of applications<

Obvious (to me anyway ;o) ) example is the arm / wrist grab... having a larger huen soa (rather than just at the wrist) may be more effective in helping break the hold.

Entry / contact starting points - from parrallel leg stance, huen your leading hand inwards to take your opponents arm out outwards. Usually your opponent will feed the rear straight, and their front hand energy is moving backwards, or they will break contact (chi sau app) and throw the front hook. - Just gives you a nice starting place, with a few high prob respnses, and nice position for your self.

Others can include, moving your arm back to the outside, rather than the inside of someone's appendage, may require a larger circle than simply a wrist rotation...

The applications are essentially endless (like much of WC) but I hope that makes some sense.

Some may say that this differentiation is pointless, as it is obvious, but I can still remember the time I realise that pak soa could travel in differing directions, thus changing circumstances dramatically. Seems obvious now, but at the time, it was a big revelation.

Hope that helps out.

Neurotic

[anerlich]

Neurotic,

I wasn't saying you were wrong, just giving my interpretation.

To my mind this movement teaches the trainee to recruit more joints into the movement, with the aim of eventually learning to use the eintire structure from the ground up. Using a small huen sao movement may work fine when you only need a small deflection of an arm, but if the guy is crouched down, e.g. for the "grappler's shoot" which seems to preoccupy so many, you can sometimes huen sao his neck, somewhat analogous to a crossface, or even under his arm, sort of like a "reverse wizzer". But to do this wrist movement probably won't be enough, unless you have the sensitivity and reflexes of Spiderman, and the recruitment of more of the structure is required.

Similarly, if you can break a guy's structure a little with a small huen sao, you can break it a lot more with a bigger one. With a small huen sao you can deflect the guy's arm, but with a bigger one you might even get behind him.

Yes, these probably won't work on a WC guy who's lots better than you, but then not that much else does either, does it?

In our Bil Jee form we have a similar movement performed in conjunction with a turn from one side of the central line to the other, with similar applications.

This is not to say a large huen sao is the be all and end all of our system. Our CK and BJ include both small (at the wrist) and large huen saos.

Don't like it? Stick with what you have.

[Neurotic]

Neurotic,

I wasn't saying you were wrong, just giving my interpretation.

Nah, I didn't think you were...

What always never fails to amaze me - the huen soa to the neck you mentioned before, essentially is the movement for gan soa... yet can easily be transfered, or simply just interpreted as a wider huen soa.

All movements form a in-out / out-in circle ;o) huen -> gan-> fut -> bon -> tan -> fuk -> huen... just for one example.

And yes - I totally agree on the fighting a WC guy who is better than you ;o) - But then it becomes a good question.. do you play your game - which is your game as well.. or do you randomise it up, and break your game, but also break his ;o) But that would be another thread ;o)

(Interesting convo btw)

Neurotic