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[BeiTangLang]

The middle stance in my opinion is the most versatile stance for fighting. Mobility & options are always best for fighting; but like I said, its just my opinion.

[yu shan]

BTL

Thank you, please explain your middle stance. And let`s hear it for being mobile and optional. Should a Mantis practitioner fight in a stationary position? What are your thoughts on fighting, stances, movement etc.

[Art D]

Yu shan what are your thoughts? I think that a middle stance sounds like what it sounds like wieght in the middle. even wieghted , Mobile can move easely has mobility .

[yu shan]

Hi Sifu Arthur

I agree on the middle stance, alot to be said about weight distribution, and being centered. But, all the while, moving...you were a difficult target to hit. I do not see on KFO much about the "Mantis flavor of movement". Sifu John Scolaro has shared the incredible waist Fa-jing, head movement, and Mantis footwork, I could go on. I guess the Mantis movement is just a "taught" kind of thing.

[NorthernMantis]

Hey yu shan how's it going bud? It's been a while since we talked. How was your trip to Puerto Rico?

In my oppinion footwork is key. Mostly when you go to tournamnts you see people jus tmoving backward or foward. It does not good moving back if the oppononent is moving towards you attacking. Pesonally I like to attack in angles and move in azig zag patter. I'll only come through the fron when I hav eno toher alternative.

I like the seven star stance since it is easy to sneak in and can be use as a kick or a sweep, not including the fact that you can step on the opponents instep or shin on your attack.

I don't try to stay in one particular stance and stay in a comfortable position where I can move fro. THe only time when I use astanc eis when I attack or get attacked but hten I get back in to a mobile position.

[yu shan]

Puerto Rico was great!

IMHO, a Mantis practitioner should never back up! Your angles and zig zag is straight-up. Footwork and body fa-jing is one thing, then what is your head doing, then what is your hands doing? Mantis fighting theory...have you really experienced?

[mantisben]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
The middle stance in my opinion is the most versatile stance for fighting. Mobility & options are always best for fighting; but like I said, its just my opinion.
Is the middle stance the same as the "Monkey Stance"? If it is the same, then I'll agree that this is THE fighting stance to use for PM fighting. Actually, boxers adopt a similar stance to launch their attacks from. It is a stance that you can launch heavy attacks from, and shuffle in and out of what I call the "sluggers" range.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by yu shan
Puerto Rico was great!

IMHO, a Mantis practitioner should never back up! Your angles and zig zag is straight-up. Footwork and body fa-jing is one thing, then what is your head doing, then what is your hands doing? Mantis fighting theory...have you really experienced?
The 1st method of the "12 Flexible Methods" is "Withdrawing Hands Upon Encountering Rigid Movements". I could be wrong about this, but I've always thought this meant to retreat, and not only "pull your hands back" which can be dangerous if you are within your opponents striking distance.

The reference I use for the "8 Rigid" and "12 Flexible" methods of PM is Lee Kam Wing's 1st book.

One of Leung Ting's books on Wing Chun says that practicioners of Wing Tsun (sic) should not retreat, and provides alternatives to retreating.

Still, when I get blasted in the face once or twice when I'm in striking distance, I'll shuffle, jump, and/or spin out of striking distance to recoup and regroup.

[Art D]

Yu shan are you saying there is no yelding in mantis no sucking capturing, no rotational energy that draws the movement to you. I've seen John do his thing ,you speek like he is doing things others are not, I don't see it. He is excelent ,has his flavor of movement, but I don't see anything that I have not seen in other mantis. I realy think youy guys need to open up and get the bliders off. often It sounds like we have it and you guys don't . I think John is a valublre resorce to the CMA , he has a good background and is talented. I am glade he is there and look forward to working w/ him more Myself. ( old case of the student becomes the teacher) He has sets and insights that are usefull. I 'm not of the same view point on two man sets . I don't like them , I see them as being to contrived and is mantis fighting mantis. I prefere more drills and reactive traing too 2 man sets , this is not to say some are not ok for beginners. Back to the point Mantis has excelant foot work thats why we do sets . skips shuffles twists and steps give mantis excelaent foot work . Wl dose not have as much swift foot work in basic sets more foundation , you just recently coming out of WL I can see that it's all new to you. w/ john . But it is out there and not excluse to PONG LI.

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by yu shan
Footwork and body fa-jing is one thing...

OK, I've heard that term before. Spoken by internal guys (mostly), external, and even a bjj guy once. But... what is it???

[BeiTangLang]

Someone split this off as a new thread when I wasn't watching.
Yes, the middle stance to my knowledge is the "monkey stance".
To answer the other question, I believe static is pretty much dead in a fight. Straight back & forward stepping are also killers.
The footwork should be varied; completely varied. lines, arcs & angles will keep you in the best possition.
As always, these are just my opinions.
~BTL

[18elders]

Art, i think yushan is talking about continuous back-peddling as compared to yielding and then attacking.

[yu shan]

Ditto 18 Elders, I said the "never" thing, and was misinterpreted.

Hey YeGor, your really into Tai Chi and your asking what is Fa-Jing?

[Ye Gor]

Yu Shan, that's right. I've seen people shake... But I know enough to know that just because something's shaking, it's not necesarily fa-jing. Fa-jing was never really explained to me. You used the term. So what is it?

[Tainan Mantis]

Standing up you can throw a ball a lot faster and ****her than if sitting.
This is a type of fa jing that anyone can understand.

Snapping a whip takes a relatively small movement, but it causes the tip of the whip to instantly "crack!" Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this because the whip tip suddenly breaks the sound barrier(Discovery).

In both examples coordinated movement of the entire body causes a wave-like motion to undulate through the body creating a large amount of explosive power.

The fa jing easiest to identify in MA are the long punches and powerful sidekicks. Movements common to Longfist type styles.

Then there are the short strikes. Those type of strikes that use parts of the body other than foot and hand.
These are the specialty techniques of traditional PM as well as many other ancient styles such as Taiji, Baji Shaolin etc.

In fact, the oldest tradition of Shaolin places a very strong emphasis on short strikes. This can be seen in old manuscripts from the Ming dynasty such as Chuan Jing as well as old PM manuscripts.

This short strikes fa jing is very strange and not obvious to the eye of the unitiated. But is the essence of PM forms such as Ba Zhou and other PM forms that rely on few punches and kicks.

Yegor,
I know what you mean about people doing fa jing shaking like it is an earth quake, but actually quite powerless.

The fa jing must be practiced with a partner.
In Kao Da training both people practice their fa jing.
If one person generates power while the other is totally lacking then the person lacking in power will most likely end up on the ground.

Just last night as a student was picking himself up I should how the power of the jing must come out of the back of the knee(deng ta throw).

Interesting enough I have seen a Taiji version of kao da. It seems likely that there are similar roots in the two styles, but at this time it is hard to find a historical comnection.

[yu shan]

Yegor

As for this shaking thing, don`t know brother. Your a Tai Chi guy, who has been taught in China?

[Art D]

yu shan . I think ye gor is looking for your veiw on body fa jin , How do you see it . can you explain your view?

[NorthernMantis]

Taken from the kfo glossary "Fa jing (Fa Ging): explosive energy, exert strength. The explosive release of strength or power that was previously stored. Especially emphasized in the martial aspects of Taijiquan, fajing is classified as the use of internal strength to produce a powerful strike, whip, or push."

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/resources/glossary.html#F

[NorthernMantis]

TTT for those who haven't seen it

[Ye Gor]

Yes, Sifu, I'd like to know what is meant by 'body fa-jing'.
But I also would very much like to know what fa-jing is in general. 'Explosive force' is nice but what exactly does THAT mean? (I think that 'explosive force' is pretty subjective, where as implementing fa-jing is something quite specific. As in many MA techniques, if you ain't got it just right, then you ain't got it.)

For example, here is a link to a great explanation of 'grounding' or 'finding the path' (http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/ , choose 'Peng Article Index', then the very first link 'Peng and Connection...'). You may think you know what grounding is, but in fact it's something quite specific (at least in Chen), not just a 'feeling of feeling the ground'. If you look at that article, you'll see that it takes more than a few catchy words to really explain it.

I don't expect (but I may be surprised!) such a in-depth explanation of fa-jing on this forum, but I would really like to hear 'what it feels like' or a similar description from those of you who have the technique.

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Yu Shan, my Chinese taichi teacher, Li Enjiu, doesn't speak English. I don't speak Chinese. So... In fact, he warned me the very first time I went to China: "you have to learn Chinese to learn taichi from me". At first I blew it off, but now I think he's right. (BTW, his younger kungfu brother, Joseph Chen, lives in Edmonton and speaks perfect English. I went there once, and what an eye opener that was.)

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'TTT'... Que cosa? Shto eto? Shenme?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I will try to offer "my" perspective of "Fa Jing".. its not the "only" perspective, and it might not even be "right".......

I personally experience what i believe to be "Fa Jing" by first sinking my energy into my power leg, almost like bouncing it off the ground through the loaded leg/foot.. then, as it rises from the bounce i add the muscle push of the power leg to enhance the bounce.. then, as the wave of energy moves into the waist region the front or empty leg adds steering and a little more power.. the steering is by way of directing the waist motion to spiral the now growing wave of energy up the spine, twisting the wave into the shoulder/chest area.. the shoulder/chest erupts in a horizontal twist that launches a relaxed arm/hand which is "gently" steered by light muscular control to its target.. as each portion of the wave supplies its contribution to the rising energy it "firms up" to support the final expression of energy through the hand/arm.. now, "firms up" is not rigid, it is a transition from "water" to something like rubber, and.. as the energy fills the hand/arm and reaches its maximum expression of speed and force supported by a "firm" frame we get the whipping crack of "Fa Jing", then the whole frame returns to water, absorbing whatever energy may be directed at it and begins sinking for another "bounce" of energy... this all happens very quickly.. unfortunately, the training to get to this point does not..

Just another perspective from the "Far-side".. <bows respectfully>

[Art D]

Nice tcb. We'er still waiting on a response from yu shan. YS how dose that sound? whats YOUR idea>

[Ye Gor]

Thanks, TCB.

[PaulLin]

I see fa-jin as a way of outleting the breaking down force, which that balanced with the condensing force. In Taichi, it would be the relax and sinking. So the one who can execute more relaxed breaking down power, must be able to sink in a very high level. By another words, if one can outlet big energy, then one must also have high condensity of matters stored within.

Another way I can say about it, it is the spit out after the sucking in. More effective(as injuring damages) if the execute time is shorter, the landing area is smaller, and it catches the opponent's momentum.

I also see that slightly yeilding backward stances are better than the even stances in defensive preparation. The double-weighted position, in Taichi, is told to avoid. The reason for that is to keep the hollow and solid separate clearly and moving into eachother smoothely to create changes. If double-weighted, then both legs are equal in the aspects of solid and hollow, then you can't apply changes to your opponent effectively unless you repostion it to one side weighted.