Pavel questions

[zen_celt]

I just got Pavel's Power to the People book and it's great. I just started the strength without size program and will do "Bear" training soon.
A couple questions, though:
If I use bear, I'll get bigger and stronger. But I also need to increase my cardio and endurance. I'm wondering if I can do my 2-5 sets of deadlifts and presses, then also pushups, crunches, pullups, horse stance, cardio, etc. without compromising results.
If Pavel's methods give me strength, how long will that strength last? Is it a 1RM strength that won't last through an hour of fighting or will it?
Also, all of Pavel's Deadlift variations to work other muscle groups; should I just do ducklifts for the quads for all of my sets or add those to my regular deads?
Where can I find Pavel's pushup program? I need that so I can increase my pushup reps for training.
Lastly, about Pavel's other merchandise; I was wondering what those of you who have bought it think about the Kettlebell challenge, Relax into Stretch, Beyond stretching, Bulletproof abs, and his Texas Swat videos.
-ZC

[IronFist]

Originally posted by zen_celt
I just got Pavel's Power to the People book and it's great. I just started the strength without size program and will do "Bear" training soon.
A couple questions, though:
If I use bear, I'll get bigger and stronger. But I also need to increase my cardio and endurance. I'm wondering if I can do my 2-5 sets of deadlifts and presses,[/i]

Well, "bear" is not 2-5 sets, it is as many sets as you can do in good form. Most likely 10-20.


[b] then also pushups, crunches, pullups, horse stance, cardio, etc. without compromising results.

Any program designed for mass will be affected by cardio. This is why bodybuilders don't usually do any cardio at all when they are bulking. That's also a lot of exercises you listed. Bear is meant to be done with only a few exercises... one big one for each muscle group, like squat or dl, bench or presses, and pullups or whatever.



If Pavel's methods give me strength, how long will that strength last? Is it a 1RM strength that won't last through an hour of fighting or will it?

It is strength, not cardiovascular endurance. Strict PTP is really 1-5RM strength. You will get no endurance from it. Bear, due to the higher volume, will probably give you a bit more endurance than PTP.


Also, all of Pavel's Deadlift variations to work other muscle groups; should I just do ducklifts for the quads for all of my sets or add those to my regular deads?

I forgot what ducklifts are. If you want to focus on your quads, do squats instead of deadlifts. Don't add things. In other words, don't do deadlifts AND squats, or don't do multiple kinds of deadlifts. The effectiveness of bear and PTP lies in their simplicity; ie. few number of exercises.


Where can I find Pavel's pushup program? I need that so I can increase my pushup reps for training.

Search. Someone posted it here a while ago I think.


Lastly, about Pavel's other merchandise; I was wondering what those of you who have bought it think about the Kettlebell challenge, Relax into Stretch, Beyond stretching, Bulletproof abs, and his Texas Swat videos.
-ZC

Relax into Stretch is awesome. From what I hear, it's a newer version of Beyond Stretching. I haven't read bulletproof abs or beyond crunches, but I hear they're both good as well. I haven't done or seen anything with kettlebells aside from the sample video on his site.

Hope this helped.

IronFist

[lowsweep]

Bulletproof abs is good. It has lots of very good, very hard excercises that can make you a whole lot stronger (usable strength), protect your back, absorb punches, pretty much anything you can use your abs for. You can work your abs like you work other lifts instead of a million crunches or leg lifts due to the isolation of the abs many of these excercises will give you (so now you work your abs...not your hip flexors, etc.) While the book does have a few advertisements for his pavelizer and other books, and I think there are more effective set/rep patterns then the one he outlined for the average person (3-5 sets of 3-5 reps of janda sit-ups) the book can really take you up a few levels in your ab training. I built a pavelizer out of wood by looking at the pictures on Pavel's site and in the book, it's not hard to do and if you like I can describe how to. Those pavelizers aren't cheap...

[yenhoi]

searching for................. pavels website??? Anyone?

[IronFist]

Dragondoor (http://www.dragondoor.com)

Hey lowsweep, can I borrow your book for a week or two? I want to read it but I can't afford to buy it. I'll loan you PTP or Relax into Stretch in return, if you want.

IronFist

[zen_celt]

Thanks for the info guys.
Ironfist- I figured it was a 1RM-5RM strength so I need to add a bit more endurance to it. I know the cardio will affect size but I need to work on musclar endurance as well so I'll do more than just the lifting(like adding some pullups/chins, push ups and horse stance).
I'll look for the push up program, I do remember seeing it on here a while back. Just out of curiosity, where is it in his books?
As far as the cardio affecting size, would you reccomend building mass then, after I get the size I want, doing more intense cardio to keep in shape or what?
-ZC

[IronFist]

Ironfist- I figured it was a 1RM-5RM strength so I need to add a bit more endurance to it. I know the cardio will affect size but I need to work on musclar endurance as well so I'll do more than just the lifting(like adding some pullups/chins, push ups and horse stance).

Try this. Don't mix the two directly in the same cycle. Alternate 2 week cycles of PTP and then endurance training. So for 2 weeks do PTP, then for 2 weeks do endurance. Pavel recommends a similar approach on his site (I think). I think people there have had good results with 2 weeks of PTP and then 2 weeks of Kettlebells alternating, so non kettlebell-endurance training should work as well.

I'll look for the push up program, I do remember seeing it on here a while back. Just out of curiosity, where is it in his books?

It's tough, and kind of inconvienent, because you have to do X number of pushups every hour throughout the day for 2 weeks. It's kind of hard to do with a job or classes or whatever. I guess it could be done, however, but since it only lasts for 2 weeks (I think) it's very intense, and I would guess that it will leave you overtrained if you try to mix it with anything. It's not in his books, btw, I think it appeared in the magazine he writes for (Muscle Media or something).

As far as the cardio affecting size, would you reccomend building mass then, after I get the size I want, doing more intense cardio to keep in shape or what?

Ok. Well, if you want to build mass as quickly as possible, then less cardio would help. However, that will obviously hurt your cardiovascular endurance. Once you get to the size you want, you will still need to maintain it by a) lifting weights and b) eating enough. I know it sucks, but it's hard to be huge and have good cardio endurance. This is why marathon runners don't look like bodybuilders. Of course, you can always strive for a happy medium. However, they do compliment each other, sometimes. For example, if you have better endurance you may be able to lift a slightly heavier weight for 1 or 2 more reps which may lead to more size.

On the other hand, increased size will mean more weight to carry around, and more muscle and veins for the heart to pump blood through, which means more strain on the heart.

So in conclusion, I would say, alternate 2 week cycles of PTP and endurance training. Or I guess you could do bear instead of PTP if you want mass, but you won't get as strong.

IronFist

[zen_celt]

Ironfist- thanks for the 2x2, I'll give that a shot. I don't really want that much size, I just want to fill out my frame a bit more(I'm 6' 150lbs). I'm thinking I want to add 20lbs max. 10 or 15 would be good.
As far as the strength and endurance, I think I'll work te 2x2 and some cardio for now and then move on to the power pyramid(5reps+10lbs4reps+10lbs...) after a few months. Still not sure yet though.
I'm a little curious about the not doing both squats and deadlifts, though. If I only do bench, squats, and side presses, how do I work my back without adding any extra exercises? Do you think it would be better to alternate?
Example: Monday-bench,side press,deadlift
Tuesday-bench,side press,squat
Wednesday-squat,deadlift sidepress
The problem is that Pavel reccomends doing the chosen exercises every day up to 5x per week and the alternating doesn't allow that.
Using the above example, I was thinking I could also add my muscular endurance on the days a muscle group is not worked with weights. i.e. Monday do horse stance with the bench, deadlift, and side press.
What do you think?

As far as the push up program, I can't find it here so I'm going to look on google or something.
I ownder if it would work for unweighted squats as well...
-ZC

[IronFist]

Ironfist- thanks for the 2x2, I'll give that a shot. I don't really want that much size, I just want to fill out my frame a bit more(I'm 6' 150lbs). I'm thinking I want to add 20lbs max. 10 or 15 would be good.

If you're a newbie, expect at least 6 months to a year for 10 or 15lbs of muscle. Note also that to put on 15 pounds of muscle you may have to put on 20 pounds total (ie. 5lbs of fat along with the muscle, but don't worry, it won't be very noticible).

I'm a little curious about the not doing both squats and deadlifts, though. If I only do bench, squats, and side presses, how do I work my back without adding any extra exercises? Do you think it would be better to alternate?
Example: Monday-bench,side press,deadlift
Tuesday-bench,side press,squat
Wednesday-squat,deadlift sidepress

No. Well, I wouldn't. You can alternate squats and deadlifts in alternating cycles. So like this:

Cycle 1 (2 weeks): PTP Squat and Bench and Weighted Pullups
Cycle 2 (2 weeks): Endurance
Cycle 3 (2 weeks): PTP Deadlift and side press or whatever.

But keep the same exercises throughout each cycle. It's part of the neurological adaption.

Using the above example, I was thinking I could also add my muscular endurance on the days a muscle group is not worked with weights. i.e. Monday do horse stance with the bench, deadlift, and side press.
What do you think?

I don't know. It's worth a try I guess, but remember that if you're doing bear (gaining size) you will most likely be sore after each workout and you might not feel like doing horse stance if you're sore from squatting. It's also bad to workout a muscle group that is already sore.

I dunno about the pushup program for unweighted squats. It's a lot easier to do 100 unweighted squats than 100 pushups, which I think was the purpose of the program in the first place. Maybe I'm mistaken, however.

IronFist

[vingtsunstudent]

zen_celt
don't mean to interupt but i think for what you want to achieve i think kettlebell training would give you more than enough extra muscle whilst giving you excellent endurance.
of course you can also substitute a dumbell if you can't afford kb's.
the best part of these things seems to be the direct carryover of functional strength that easily goes with your martial arts training.
vts

[yenhoi]

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/4992/100push.html

100 pushup program.

[IronFist]

That's the pushup program I like, but it's not Pavel's.

vts, kettlebelling is not known for being a mass builder. If you are completely new to working out then you might gain some basic mass from it, but you won't get huge. Occassionally, some people do report muscle growth while using kettlebells, but I don't think it's anything too substantial.

IronFist

[Suntzu]

I normally cheat, I mean, partials going half way down… I might have to give half way up a try…

[IronFist]

Only going from half way up to all the way up will be pretty useless if you do it all the time, IMO.

IronFist

[Suntzu]

I'm not bangin out all x amount of pushups half way… but I admittedly do some of x amount halfway than I bang out the rest full up/down… or are u saying halfway up is MORE useless than halfway down???

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i gots a question iron fist.

i know you said it aint a good idea to add anything to pavel's programs as they work because of their simplicity, but would something as isolated as inner and outer forearm curls hurt?

i wonder because im thinking of ordering his book and so far that's the only thing i would want to add to any of the routines listed.

i know forearm curls aren't going to do much for overall strength, but i like having big forearms and my simple routine with them gave me awesome re****s.

[Kempo Guy]

The program outlined below is fairly self-explanatory. Just drop and do the specified percentage of your last personal best at given time intervals during the day. For instance if you managed 50 push-ups on you test, do 25 on the day that calls for 50% relative intensity. On Mondays, test yourself for one set and do easy sets for the rest of the day. As you see the time intervals are fairly frequent and you may not be able to do them at that frequency, I was told not to sweat it if you miss a few through out the day as long as you try to get in as many as you can. They also recommend that you do no other upper-body work with the exception of pull-ups or chin-ups.
There are two programs, and I'll outline both of them.

The first program goes like this:

"Hit the Deck Program":
Week 1: Relative Intensity: Set Frequency:
Monday 100% (test); 30% (remainder of day) 60 minutes
Tuesday 50% 60 minutes
Wednesday 60% 45 minutes
Thursday 25% 60 minutes
Friday 45% 30 minutes
Saturday 40% 60 minutes
Sunday 20% 90 minutes

Week 2: Relative Intensity: Set Frequency:
Monday 100% (test); 35% (remainder of day) 45 minutes
Tuesday 55% 20 minutes
Wednesday 30% 15 minutes
Thursday 65% 60 minutes
Friday 35% 45 minutes
Saturday 45% 60 minutes
Sunday 25% 120 minutes

Week 3:
Monday 100% (test)


"Drop and Give me 100 Push-Ups Program":
Week 1: Relative Intensity: Set Frequency:
Monday 100% (test); 40% (remainder of day) 60 minutes
Tuesday 50% 30 minutes
Wednesday 70% 45 minutes
Thursday 40% 60 minutes
Friday 80% 60 minutes
Saturday 55% 90 minutes
Sunday 20% 90 minutes

Week 2: Relative Intensity: Set Frequency:
Monday 100% (test); 90% (remainder of day) 120 minutes
Tuesday 45% 60 minutes
Wednesday 20% 10 minutes
Thursday 65% 90 minutes
Friday 75% 60 minutes
Saturday 30% 90 minutes
Sunday 15% 120 minutes

Week 3:
Monday 100% (test)


Well, this is the program in a nutshell. I'm not going to go over the proper way to do push ups with you obviously, but they recommend doing them so your arms are out (just like Bench Press) and do it on the knuckles (instead of push up bars or the palms of your hand). Let me know if you have any questions in regards to this.

Hope this helps.
KG

[Kempo Guy]

Zen_Celt,
I tend to agree with Vingtsunstudent that what you're looking for probably is Kettlebell training.

Although it does not add a ton of muscle, it at the very least will increase size in your shoulders, lats and tri's. If you add some pull-ups/chin-ups, one-legged pistols, couple of variations of push ups and ab-work (such as ab wheel or Janda's) you have a pretty good whole body workout going on... imho.

I can honestly say I've added muscle and leaned out considerably by doing KB's along with the exercises I mentioned above. However, I have not trained much with weights over the years (only done calisthenics a la "Scrapper's" workouts), which may have been the reason why it worked so well for me. I have gained noticeable size in my shoulders, back, quads, forearms and tri's.

Hope you guys don't mind me sharing some of my experiences...

KG

[vingtsunstudent]

hey iron my man, howz things.
the reason i said that was because zen said he just wanted a little extra size and better endurance.
if you only have dumbells to use you can make them quite heavy for things like snatch and clean & press which i'm sure would add plenty of size.
like kempo guy said add to that some pushups and pullups and i think you have a good overall formula.
vts

[IronFist]

suntzu said:

I'm not bangin out all x amount of pushups half way… but I admittedly do some of x amount halfway than I bang out the rest full up/down… or are u saying halfway up is MORE useless than halfway down???

Ok. Doing partials from all the way down to half way up and back down is good. This is because a) in normal pushups when you lock out your muscles get to rest for half a second while your bone structure takes over to hold you up. If you go from all the way down to half way up and back down, you never take the stress off the muscles. Plus, you're concentrating on the hardest part of the movement (the bottom).

Going from half way to the top and back down to half way isn't as good because a) it's focusing on the easiest part of the movement, b) your bodyweight hasn't transferred to your arms very much in the top half so the overall load is less.

Make sense? There are other factors but this is basically it.

IronFist

[IronFist]

Keep in mind that partials are a good thing to supplement your pushup program with, but if you only do them and don't ever do full range pushups you will be missing out.

I think the way they are integrated into the program that was linked on the first page is excellent, because I have had good results with that program even though I never finished it :)

On a side note, I tried emailing the author of that program a while ago but my email was returned to me. I told him a bunch of us at KFO really liked his program :)

IronFist

[IronFist]

GDA, I'll answer your question when I have more time tomorrow :)

IronFist

[Suntzu]

I'll keep that in mind when I start 'cheating' again… I hate push ups…

GDA - besides forearm curls… grab a couple heavy DB and try a farmers walk… hell on your legsand shoulders but keeping an iron grip on those DB's will burn up those forearms too…

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

that sounds like a good exercise, and one i might try in another rutine, but i don't want to add too much into pavel's if it can fu ck it up. i really like the curls because they are simple, completely isolated, and work like a muthf ucka.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
i gots a question iron fist.

i know you said it aint a good idea to add anything to pavel's programs as they work because of their simplicity, but would something as isolated as inner and outer forearm curls hurt?

i wonder because im thinking of ordering his book and so far that's the only thing i would want to add to any of the routines listed.

i know forearm curls aren't going to do much for overall strength, but i like having big forearms and my simple routine with them gave me awesome re****s.

GDA,

Dude, I just spend like 5 minutes writing an answer for you because I thought you asked about biceps curls. I just reread it and noticed that you said FOREARM curls. Duh.

Ok. I would say go ahead, however, if you're doing a PTP cycle, cut out the forearm curls as you approach the end of the cycle becaues deadlift is heavily dependent upon the grip, in which the forearms play a large role. So, if your forearms are fatigued from heavy training, you won't be able to hold on to the bar for a heavy deadlift. If you're doing PTP with squat instead of deadlift, then it might be a bit easier, but remember that forearms are also important in benching. And same thing if you're doing pullups in the cycle. You won't be able to hold on to the bar.

However, heavy deadlifting may make your forarms look more dense. That's always good.

So, use your own discretion. If you feel that forearm work is causing your deadlift or anything to be hindered, then I would back off.

You could always do low reps with a Captains of Crush gripper. You won't gain much size but you'll get a greatly improved grip.

Lemme know if you have any more questions,

IronFist

[Kempo Guy]

To add to IronFist's reply to GDA...
In addition to the forearm workout you get by doing deadlifts, I'd recommend doing pullups (weighted) and Kettlebell swings. Both these work your grip and forearms.
Give it a shot, they are more functional exercises than just doing forearm curls...

KG

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

kempo guy .. the only reason i really do the forearm curls at all is for vanity's sake. they are the absolute best thing i have found for putting on size very quickly on the forearms.

are kettele bell swings anything like the dumbell swings? with a dumbell i would arc the weight in front of my body thumb facing me .... rotate to thumb out when it got to my shoulder ... finish the rep by arcing down the outside of my body.

[Kempo Guy]

GDA,

I hear you bro... I do some chin-ups and Kettlebell curls for my biceps for vanity's sake as well. All I know is that swinging the KB's around has made my forearms very dense.

As for doing dumbell swings the KB way, instead of me trying to describe it check out this site:
http://www.trainforstrength.com/ex-4.shtml

The swings done with actual KB's would be similar to what you see above except you would have you palm facing towards you at the start (at the bottom of the lift) of the exercise and lift without rotating your hand. Another difference with KB's would be the displaced center of gravity, so the swing actually feels a little different than using a dumbell. There's also the difference in the grip, the KB grip is considerably "fatter" than a dumbell, which further aids in developing strength in your grip and forearms.

KB's aren't for everybody, I know a few people that didn't care for it but personally I DIG IT! :D

Hope this helps,
KG