pm streetfighting

[theneuhauser]

I studied NPM for three years, since then i have never been in a brawl, only sparred with a couple well disciplined ma that i trusted could hold their own(so noone gets hurt too badly).

so many techniques in pm are designed to destroy an opponent, bone breaking being the most merciful with cavity and pressure point attacks coming very naturally, right?
now what if you got into a semi dangerous situation, but not necessarily a life threatening one?
would you feel comfortable that you could apply the appropriate amount of control without overdoing it and finding yourself in the courtroom later for using excessive force?

are alot of the pm techniques a little bit too viscious in todays society with today's laws?

[Art D]

What is semi dangerous? I rember a story on the news not long ago of this kid , just about to graduate from high school , got killed one punch to his temple. I say its all dangerous! who knows whats going down. better to be tried by 12 than caried by 6. The ? is not excesive force ,it is did you stop when the attackt was defened and over or did you become the attaker at that point. Read the law, on the use of force and deadly force. we have the Fl statues in my school for evryone to read. It's important to know your rights and those of others.

[theneuhauser]

i agree with you that its better to act first and question your actions later. however, an adept martial artist always holds back to a certain extent. for example, at my old school we practiced one technique against a one arm choke that responded by breaking th clavicle of the choke arm, crashing the trachea and breaking the other clavicle. that was basically one fluid movement that can be performed in less than a second. now how would it look to a jury if you had to stand up and say "he grabbed my neck, then i broke both of his shoulders and crushed his windpipe"?

i know of one example, where an aquaintance of mine (hapkido) was bouncing at the bar. one drunk wouldnt give up and somehow he ended up with two broken arms. it happened very quickly. the drunk sued him and the bar as well. he won his lawsuit on the basis that a proffessional bouncer should be able to match the level of agressive intent without being excessive. thankfully, the hapkidoist had no criminal record, and suffered only fines and probation.

[Art D]

bouncing is not self defence, its your job to not hurt people. it is expected .

How would it sound to a jury that you broke both his shouledrs, thats not the way it works .How dose it sound to the cops , and the DA what was the situation .

And to the point of standing up and saying he grabed my neck . that would not sound good.

Now saying that he agressivly attacked you and was choking you and that you feared for your life and reacted to free your self from his grip just before you passed out well that might change things. Self defense is self defense and needs to be continued w/ your side of the story t. that is why you need to know the law so you can frame your respnce to fit it,. I don't advocate fighting but I also don't think that you should hold back if your life is is in danger.

[Art D]

reading the post closer it sounds funny . was your friend arested for asault? and sued?

[yu shan]

Isn`t Praying Mantis fighting theory (street fighting) what it`s all about? There are mean people that want to hurt you, a Mantis practitioner will be ready...

[mantisben]

Originally posted by theneuhauser
...now what if you got into a semi dangerous situation, but not necessarily a life threatening one?
would you feel comfortable that you could apply the appropriate amount of control without overdoing it and finding yourself in the courtroom later for using excessive force?
If you didn't want to break your opponents arm or leg, then breaking his nose can be a deterrent, or swelling his eyes shut if you can. The main thing being to draw blood to take away his spirit for fighting, then you could taunt him with words by over-exaggerating his wounds to, again, take away his spirit for fighting. If that doesn't work, then you'll have to either break an arm or knock him out, unfortunately.

Tactics like the ones above are only for streetfights where you don't want to hurt the person seriously. A bouncer should NOT try to use the tactics above, but learn to use restraining techniques, joint-locks, and most importantly other bouncers in physical confrontations.

Finally, the most powerful people on the planet are NEVER the best fighters. They are usually the best talkers. I've talked my way out of MANY fights. If someone wants to fight and I know they don't stand a chance against me, I'll say something like "I don't want to fight you because you'll most likely kick my butt.". Usually they don't really want to fight and hearing this makes them feel like they ALREADY beat me up. :D

Other times you can't take the "please don't hurt me, I'm scared" approach. I was once followed by 2 guys in a Subway station in Manhattan. After following me for about 6 train cars, I wrapped my jacket around my waist and waited for them to arrive in the car I was in. Sure enough, they stopped, sat RIGHT in front of me and stared at me like they were deciding what they were going to do with me. I looked at the scariest one and said "what the F#@K are you lookin at?". They couldn't believe their ears. To make a short story shorter, they said "we don't want no problems, we're just trying to get home." Rubbish. They thought I had a gun or something. They couldn't see "little-ole-me" being soo confrontational with them WITHOUT having a pistol. I rode the train with them for about 5 stops, scared sh!tless but not showing it, then got off.

I couldn't do the "you'll beat me up..." approach because they would've saw me as an easy victim and terrorized me, or worse.

I'm glad they didn't decide to attack me because (I can't emphasize this enough) they would've SURELY beat me senseless... My approach was risky, but based on my past experiences, it seemed to be the only way out. It wasn't my PM techniques that saved me in this situation, but my words (and GOD's favor).

[theneuhauser]

thats a very good sidenote mantisben, survival really does begin with the brain, and using ours is an art on many levels.


art d, youre right. noone would incriminate themself on the stand in such a manner, but ive been on a jury before, and people can really have some strange rational sometimes :(
im going to read up on these statutes now, im inspired!
and as far as the bouncer, i wasnt there that evening, but i believe that he was not arrested, only questioned by the police, later, he was sued in court.

[ursa major]

I always advise our students to consider their choices in advance of unexpected confrontations. This is a method of preparing.

For instance, work out now, today, this minute how far you are willing to go and what you are willing to do to protect yourself, your loved ones, your friends, your ideals. Work out today, this minute, exactly what you believe in and to what extent you believe. Then you will know how to act.

Do this before the moment arrives and having made your decision and your choices, having come to grip with what is and what is not important to you, train accordingly.

Hopefully when tested we can be true to our convictions.

Respectfully,
UM.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantisben
... I'm glad they didn't decide to attack me because (I can't emphasize this enough) they would've SURELY beat me senseless... My approach was risky, but based on my past experiences, it seemed to be the only way out. It wasn't my PM techniques that saved me in this situation, but my words (and GOD's favor).

Mantisben -- very glad to hear you made it through this experience in one piece.

regards,
UM.

[ged]

just about the choking thing - at a school dance, a guy pushed me, i pushed back, he started choking me with 2 hands (i had bruises on my neck the next day) and screaming at me to punch him. at this point i had no training at all, and launched a weak right cross. he kept his left hand on my neck, drew back his right and punched me 3 times in the mouth, knocking 2 of my permanent teeth out. he was 2 years older than me.

afterwards, we were both equally blamed. so in my experience, people don't rate a choke very highly - like theneuhauser said, people just kinda consider it 'grabbing someones neck'. i mean, in my experience, if A grabs B around the neck and B punches him in the neck, that would be considered (by the authorities) 'unreasonable'. if A punches B, and B punches A in the neck, it's just another punch right? A punched first, B was just retaliating in kind.

still kind of on-topic here - what do you people do against a one-handed choke, with the other hand drawn back to punch?

ive been taught to break the grabbing arm, by hitting either side of the elbow with my forearms - i think most ppl know that technique and can visualise it. but due to all of what ive just said, i dont want to permanently **** up someones elbow (ive heard that elbows dont heal very well) if someone grabs me around the neck.

wouldnt look good in court 'i grabbed his neck, he destroyed my elbow joints in my right arm, now i have 60% capacity in that joint for the rest of my life'.

[BeiTangLang]

If the guys is already ocked to throw a punch, F#cking up is arm is a complete non-issue compared to him f#cking up your face.
He'd better get ready for a cast in my opinion.
~BTL

[Kristoffer]

Why stick around and chat with your attacker? Finnish him and leave. How is he suposed to sue ya then? :rolleyes:

[Mantis9]

Ged

A choke can be tricky. If I think I'm reading you right, you're talking about someone choking while facing you, right? Well, there are some choice spot that can help your dilemna. The first is direct. Use a Fan Cha, the large wheeling technique, to strike across the backside of his arm, right above his elbow. This would definitely hurt his elbow. This is just an example of directly attacking the arm without permenently damaging the person.

The second is indirect. With his arm up, he's opening a gate. Attacking along the open meridan. Or cross kick him. Being that close and focus on you neck would likely leave him open to it.

Mantis9

[mantisben]

Originally posted by ursa major


Mantisben -- very glad to hear you made it through this experience in one piece.

regards,
UM.

Thank you very much, Ursa Major

[mantisben]

just about the choking thing - at a school dance, a guy pushed me, i pushed back,...
It is very important to hit a bully back. Especially in school. Even if you lose the fight, you get RESPECT.

...at this point i had no training at all, and launched a weak right cross.

My right-cross isn't as strong as it used to be...

With no training at all, one hand on your neck, and the other hand ready to strike you, use a finger-jab to one of his eyes. Use a pecking-type of motion, and you won't gouge it. Then nail him with a couple of weak right-crosses to the nose, eye-brow, ear, and temple, if you can accuratley hit these targets. These targets don't take alot of force to hurt, so even with a weak-right, you should be able to hurt him. Still, whenever you throw a right-cross, throw it like your trying to make your fist come out the other side of his head.

still kind of on-topic here - what do you people do against a one-handed choke, with the other hand drawn back to punch?

If the person is much bigger than me, I'd try to poke him in the eye, nail him with a couple of hooks and crosses (both hands), till I can try to execute a throw or a trip. Then, if he hits the floor, kick and stomp his face and head until he looks like he can't retaliate, or is unconcious. Whichever comes first.

ive been taught to break the grabbing arm, by hitting either side of the elbow with my forearms...
I've never thought about this one. I'll have to try it in class. Thanks for the technique!
...i dont want to permanently **** up someones elbow (ive heard that elbows dont heal very well) if someone grabs me around the neck.

I don't mean to be funny, but supplement your Martial Arts training with long-distance running. This way, you could hit your opponent with enough force to get him to release you, then run. This way, he doesn't get hurt too bad, and neither do you. :D
I mean this honestly. You could defend yourself against 10 of the best fighters on the planet SIMULTANEOUSLY if you could out-run them. If they can't catch you, they can't hurt you. However, if they live next door to you, you might have to move out of the neighborhood.

wouldnt look good in court 'i grabbed his neck, he destroyed my elbow joints in my right arm, now i have 60% capacity in that joint for the rest of my life'.
If the grab left marks on your neck, then he didn't just GRAB your neck. He tried to CHOKE you and people can DIE from chokes. I'd apologize to the judge and assailant about the 60% capacity in his elbow (I'd honestly be sorry. I don't want to hurt anybody), but say that I thought he was going to kill me, and I was defending myself the only way I knew how.

As for feeling bad about hurting someone, I'll say this. If I could face a person and let them punch me, kick me, bite me, throw me, and stomp me without getting hurt, I would probably not hit the person back, BECAUSE THEY CAN'T HURT ME. This is why I'll NEVER hit a senior citizen, or a child. THEY CAN'T HURT ME. But if someone attacks me and they CAN HURT ME, I'll PUNCH KICK SLAP BITE BREAK THROW PULL PUSH YANK and RUN to stop my body from getting black-eyes, broken bones, and busted lips. I mean, I can't show up to work like that. :D

[bokfu]

In response to the choking/punch scenario... had you considered that the offending choking arm is not the item to focus your defense on? There are other ways of getting out of this situation without ruining this guys arm for life. Following is one technique you may consider: Since it is a one handed choke, there is a weak link in the thumb area just as if someone grabs your wrist with one hand. I suggest to quickly sink your body slightly and rotate your head in the direction the his thumb is in a manner like you are ducking under his choking arm from inside to outside. (If you do any boxing, it is similar to the rope ducking excercise which will give you protection against the punch by exposing only the left top/side of your skull.) Do this movement as you drop into a right broken bow. At the same time you drop, throw a mantis left elbow into the attacker's right lower ribs as you face right, but don't stop there... since he probably has his left leg forward, immediately twist back facing to the left going down to your right knee as you throw a right mantis elbow to the outside of his left knee. This technique is quick, close, and gives less open area for more attack. Of course the first elbow takes the wind from the attacker and the second takes the attacker to the ground. (In fact if you are scared of blowing his knee out, just use your elbow strike on the back of his quad on the nerve that muay thai guys love to kick on.) Don't let yourself get so focused on the offending arm... that is what your attacker expects you to do since that is his point of attack. Be unpredictable and aggressive... your attack will be your best defense instead of worrying over removing the choking hand...it will suddenly be a minor problem to you.

[ged]

thanks for all the advice to my choking scenario, ive read over them all a few times and am going to start training a few of them.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by bokfu
In response to the choking/punch scenario... had you considered that the offending choking arm is not the item to focus your defense on? There are other ways of getting out of this situation without ruining this guys arm for life. Following is one technique you may consider: Since it is a one handed choke, there is a weak link in the thumb area just as if someone grabs your wrist with one hand. I suggest to quickly sink your body slightly and rotate your head in the direction the his thumb is in a manner like you are ducking under his choking arm from inside to outside. (If you do any boxing, it is similar to the rope ducking excercise which will give you protection against the punch by exposing only the left top/side of your skull.) Do this movement as you drop into a right broken bow. At the same time you drop, throw a mantis left elbow into the attacker's right lower ribs as you face right, but don't stop there... since he probably has his left leg forward, immediately twist back facing to the left going down to your right knee as you throw a right mantis elbow to the outside of his left knee. This technique is quick, close, and gives less open area for more attack. Of course the first elbow takes the wind from the attacker and the second takes the attacker to the ground. (In fact if you are scared of blowing his knee out, just use your elbow strike on the back of his quad on the nerve that muay thai guys love to kick on.) Don't let yourself get so focused on the offending arm... that is what your attacker expects you to do since that is his point of attack. Be unpredictable and aggressive... your attack will be your best defense instead of worrying over removing the choking hand...it will suddenly be a minor problem to you.

I tried this & I only see one problem with it;
if you always turn to the thumb side, you are stepping into his open gate & right into his striking/grappling range. Besides, it sounds as if the technique you're describing is just as potentialy damaging as the arm dislocate.
I'll stick to the offending arm damage bit. Thanks for the visual though! It'll give me something to study on for a bit.
Best wishes,
~BTL

[Art D]

What is this some kind of P. C. martial art. who cares about the scum bag attacker f**k him up. as was said on another thred about some other subject , I agreed w/ it then so I'll do want a good M. A dose, Adopt it as my own. "LET THE WHEEL OF KARMA ROLL" let it roll right over his ass. instant karma so to speek.

[BeiTangLang]

I don't disagree with you at all Art,.. I was just pointing out an observation for those that had the concern of injuring. I'm all about just takin' the arm out right away.

[bokfu]

BTL
Well, the technique I was describing earlier is very damaging I agree. I I felt the gate was open to attack already...there is always a 50/50 point where both attacker and defender are equal...the one taking advantage first wins. Since the attack was under way already, a direct attack seemed to be the way to go. (Maybe my first visualization stems from my previous bok fu pai system more than 8 step.) Now, considering what a pure 8 step person should do would close the defenders gate and allow opening the attackers rear gate: Assuming the attacker uses left hand for choke, the defender should slide his left foot behind right, turning his body to the left and outside from the attackers inside front gate and against the choking thumb. (This angle is important for keeping away a right kick from the attacker!) Simultaneously, a right bong sau is used at the attacker's left elbow to loosen the grip. The defender should then cross step behind with his right leg using a left stealing hand technique to control the attackers arm, continue to twist his body, stepping his right foot through, and bringing his right arm around to a power cut or mantis hook to the back of the attacker's neck, head or kidneys. (A mantis style throw could be substitued here to finish quickly.) This puts the defender outside of any harm at the attackers rear gate and gives the attacker no opening for retaliation. To follow up this strike, the defender then slides in on using his left side with the typical 8 step elbow pushing technique to move the attacker away. This option of defense is probably more in the spirit of 8 step style by moving the bodyand using angles to get into a postion of safety while still launching an attack. I am glad you gave input on my original statement.... I believe I was thinking along different system solution which is very aggressive and chancy. I will think more on my use of the ba bu system! Even so, I feel that trying to focus on the choking hand/arm is sort of unecessary in a way. I believe the defense against the arm should occur while getting into a safer position or attacking. Perhaps the damaging of a joint would stop the choke and possibly the punch, but the attack could continue with even more fury. Wouldn't a complete take-out be more effective and safe? I have continued fighting with a broken left thumb and unusable hand before and similarly, a damaged elbow maybe would not stop an attack since the attacker still has a good right arm and two good legs. During altercations I always consider the opponent to be a martial artist or carrying a weapon. There is always the possibility of some surprise if you know what I mean! I personally do not like to stop until the attacker is incapacitated. What do you think on this reasoning? Thanks for jogging my brain... I should be thinking more like a mantis stylist! In any case, how many infinite variations are there for this attack!? Thanks, BTL

[Art D]

B.T
My coment was not directed at you BT. more of a genral statement.Lets face it, when a person places both hands on your throt it's pritty easy to F**k them up. how do I distroy you, let me count the ways.

[mantisben]

still kind of on-topic here - what do you people do against a one-handed choke, with the other hand drawn back to punch?
If your opponents other hand is DRAWN BACK TO PUNCH? I could see if he is PULLING his hand back to punch, but if his strike is ALREADY pulled back and ready to punch? You don't have much time for all this movement. Add to that the person who quoted this originally said HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY TRAINING. Think about techniques that work for someone without training.

He also said that this guy knocked out 2 of his front teeth. Let's damage the elbows if possible. Let's hit the elbow once to damage it and cause great pain, and possibly move out of striking distance. Then let's hit it again so if this person continues to fight, he won't be throwing punches with that "choking" hand.

A recap: Hit the elbow and take away 40% of it's capacity, leaving him with 60%. Then, let's take away another 40% of that arm's capacity and leave the attacker with 20%.

Next, we'll apologize to the attacker, but tell him he left us no other choice. We'll send him flowers and sign his cast.

Comments? Criticizims?

[BeiTangLang]

You are quite welcome.
BTW, the technique I was speaking of was just a "quicky" technique;
scissor snap the grabbing arm (which automaticly bings one fist to a strong "launch" point) while side-stepping to his outside gate. Then send the ****ed fist straight for the nose.
Not many people will persue you with a broken arm & a blinding shot to the nose, but even if they did, they would have to turn again to face you & they would no longer have a grip on you :)
I believe in the "KISS" theory of techniques; Keep It Simple Stupid! Simple almost always works for me!
Thanks for the reply,
~BTL

[BeiTangLang]

D@mn this foul language sensor! I meant to say Co>ck>ed fist; which could be either a straight or hammer fist. Either way, the side step will negate the punch he had for you unless he can somehow punch through his own arm.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Art D
What is this some kind of P. C. martial art. who cares about the scum bag attacker f**k him up. as was said on another thred about some other subject , I agreed w/ it then so I'll do want a good M. A dose, Adopt it as my own. "LET THE WHEEL OF KARMA ROLL" let it roll right over his ass. instant karma so to speek.

Hello Art D,

Sometimes we have to care what happens to the 'scumbag attacker'. Sometimes the scumbag attacker is somebody who has just had too much to deal with on too many levels in his life in too short a period of time and it comes out in a way that later may horrify himself just as much as his victim.

Sometimes bad things happen to good people and they respond poorly. Sometimes even law abiding people get out of control and do harm. I am not trying to argue about the right or wrong of any of this. I just accept that it is a reality that we have to live with.

I believe that sometimes our foe is not neccessarily our enemy. I believe that sometimes our foe is our neighbour and he may be in need of our help. Sometimes our foe is even ourselves.

As an accomplished martial artist I will always strive for skills that allow me to neutralise an opponent without causing life diminishing injuries. To me this is the best MA of all.

thx for your time,
UM.

[mantis108]

One of the major criticism from the so-called reality based self-defense systems (ie JKD and others that follows) on the traditional arts especially those from the east is that traditional artist think to much. They will be quick to point out that "you do this then this and then this" mentality is really the achillies heel of traditional arts. Looking at this discussion, I couldn't help but notice how much their criticism applies here.

No offense, but the point that the person who is defending the choke has little to no training at all. This has been repeatly ignored (except Mantisben brought it up again). I fully understand that being traditional stylists we are devouted to our respective arts; thus, stylisted techniques mean a lot. However, are we at risk in not addressing the need of a complete novice? Self-defense doesn't equate martial arts. Self-defense is base level and raw, not at all refine as martial arts. Of course, a trained person has more options then a non trained one. a Choke is more or less a "hold and pound" for the aggressor. It is not sophisticated technique. It is simple and effective because it works on the adrenaline dump factor of the victim. Being a martial artist to many people it becomes relying on techniques to get you out of all situations. We simply have forgotten the first golden rule of self defense - by all means avoid one. Run if you have to. Use verbal fences plus gesture if need be (not just talking because it is pointless) to buy time to prepare for an imminent attack. When the Sh!t hits the fan, act with extreme prejudice. Having said that I think Mantisben is pretty streetwise.

Mantis108

[BeiTangLang]

No offense to you Mantis 108, but a complete novice would probrably get his rear-end handed to him in that scenario; That being said, this whole thread might as well not exist because more than likely, a "complete" novice would not be reading this forum.
I just see this thread for what it is; a discussion of possible techniques.
I wish there were a way to convince everyone to take at least a basic defence course, but so many people are not interested it astounds me.
So, to adress the needs of a complete novice:
GO GET SOME TRAINING. There.
;)
Best wishes,
~BTL

[mantis108]

Non taken. :)

I agreed that people should learn how to deal with situations. The problem with most people today is that they feel they are protected by the LAW, which is IMHO a false sense of security. They are not aware nor are they prepare to assume the responsibility of self defense. So self defense is something that a responsible citizen should be aware of. It's like a first aide cause. It must be designed to/attempted to save lives in the most practical manner. Now martial arts on the other hand are subject to personal expressions. I am sure that everyone involved in this discussion is aware of this. In case someone from different disciplines (ie reality based self defense systems or whatever) or a novice doing a research sees this and starts to think that there goes the theorists, I merely wanted to state the difference between self defense and martial arts. As such we (the tradtionalists) are aware and prepare to train people in the area of self defense and martial arts with the utmost duty of care. KFO being a popular forum for martial arts, we can't be too complaisant in thinking that it is only the mantis guys/gals are present. ;)

Sorry about the distraction, guys and gals :)

Regards

Mantis108

[bokfu]

Interesting theories here on this subject.... this is why I like this forum so much! Let me bring up a few points to ponder on the choke and punch post that GED inserted. I believe that his question was what should he do NOW that he is involved in MA training. He said this situation happened pre-training and now he has ability to defend himself but is concerned with damaging the attacker for life. Should he just open up and do damage with no concerns? Advanced martial artists rarely pull such a damaging technique in his arsenal...{What would you do in a case where the person may be a drunk acquaintence or maybe your girlfriend's brother who suddenly thought you deserved a serious beating? He is bigger and not thinking clearly and may just take your teeth out. You don't want to lose your teeth but yet do you really want to destroy his elbow?} Then there is the point that GED had nowhere to retreat to, right? He was instantly involved, so there was no option to run. Finally, many focus on damaging the elbow with the two forearms, which is a basic self defense technique in most systems. I have witnessed a choking/punching scenario many times with some former work I was involved with, and I can say that most of the time a person could not pull this self defense technique off. (Try this with a buddy). Step your left leg forward and apply a front choke with your left hand and pull your right arm back as if to punch. Notice if you have your left arm totally straight out and locked as most instructions teach. Now, without letting go of the choke, do a slow motion punch with your right. If you notice, this is a very difficult thing to do...mainly because it is very unnatural since to move your right shoulder forward to connect your punch your left has to come backward. Now, drop your left choking arm's elbow down slightly till it is between you and your buddy at solar plexus height (you will be slightly closer to your buddy). Now, try slow motion punches... you will find they are easier and are basically short, strong jabs. In reality, when I have witnessed this, the attacker is generally pushing backward the victim in a shuffling step forward using the back leg for power. The point I am making is this: when the elbow is lowered to that position, it is almost of no use to try to break it. Not being locked out keeps the serious pressure off and then you have no leverage. In my experience, the only time to consider using this defense is when somebody is holding one's shirts at the front, arm extended trying to keep a distance between. I suggest to look carefully at this technique and see what you gentlemen think. If you find that this technique is a little dicey to depend on as a one-shot solution, what other technique would you use and can you think of any that does not do serious damage such as broken joint, bone, or removal of an eye? Does anyone follow the thought of moving one's body as a defense without even using a hard strike or block? I can tell you this... in California, it is absolutely illegal to use martial arts unless you are seriously in trouble and fear for your life. The more advanced you are in the arts, the more the courts believe you should have passively controlled the attacker instead of using direct strikes. There are always friends of the attacker who will be witness to what you do in your own defense. A punch in a bar or at a dance does not merit certain defense techniques. It is a sad thing, but true.

[mantisben]

Thank you very much for your comments, Mantis108. I really appreciate them. :D

[mantisben]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bokfu
He said this situation happened pre-training and now he has ability to defend himself but is concerned with damaging the attacker for life. Should he just open up and do damage with no concerns? Advanced martial artists rarely pull such a damaging technique in his arsenal...

I got a confession to make: I am not an advanced Martial Artist (will I ever be?). In a combat situation, I need to get the attacker to stop attacking me as soon as possible.

{What would you do in a case where the person may be a drunk acquaintence or maybe your girlfriend's brother who suddenly thought you deserved a serious beating? He is bigger and not thinking clearly and may just take your teeth out. You don't want to lose your teeth but yet do you really want to destroy his elbow?}

If I think that he can hit me full-force in the face a couple of times, and I won't suffer any damage, then I won't hit back. I'll never hit anybody that can't hurt me. However, I'm not that advanced. If I get hit in the mouth, I'll bleed. If I get choked long enough, I'll pass out.

I saw a guy get knocked out in a streetfight, and his attacker kicked him in the head 'til he had amnesia. How do I know he had amnesia? The paramedics showed up and asked the guy his name, and he said "I don't know.". They asked him if he knew where he was at, and he said "I don't know.". This sounds like amnesia to me. I've never seen the guy again, so I don't know if it was temporary or permanent.

But back to your question: {...He is bigger and not thinking clearly and may just take your teeth out. You don't want to lose your teeth but yet do you really want to destroy his elbow?}

Yup. If I see the opportunity, and damaging his elbow will stop his aggression, I will. But mostly, I'm a striker. I'll try to hit him until he is unconsious or unable to retaliate, whichever comes first. I don't know how to attack the elbow to well, but after all this talk about damaging the elbow, I'll see if my PM forms contain techniques that attack it sufficiently. It may be more humane than my approach of beating him unconsious.

Then there is the point that GED had nowhere to retreat to, right?

I don't see anything in ged's post about "nowhere to retreat to." He WAS in a school dance, so there should have been plenty of room. Unless he fought in a locker-room.

Now, drop your left choking arm's elbow down slightly till it is between you and your buddy at solar plexus height...(snip)...The point I am making is this: when the elbow is lowered to that position, it is almost of no use to try to break it.
You are absolutely right! In reality, nobody chokes with their arms locked.

...what other technique would you use and can you think of any that does not do serious damage such as broken joint, bone, or removal of an eye?

In my first response to the "one-hand choke, other hand ready to strike" attack, I said the following:
use a finger-jab to one of his eyes. Use a pecking-type of motion, and you won't gouge the eye. Then nail him with a couple of weak right/left crosses to the nose, eye-brow, ear, and temple, if you can accuratley hit these targets. These targets don't take alot of force to hurt, so even with a weak-right, you should be able to hurt him. Still, whenever you throw a right-cross, throw it like your trying to make your fist come out the other side of his head.

I can tell you this... in California, it is absolutely illegal to use martial arts unless you are seriously in trouble and fear for your life.

If someone grabs you by the neck and is ready to punch you in the face you ARE in serious trouble and SHOULD fear for your life. Unless you're in a tournament of some kind.

The more advanced you are in the arts, the more the courts believe you should have passively controlled the attacker instead of using direct strikes.

I'm not advanced in the arts. I don't know if PM contains any "passively controlling" techniques. Maybe it does, but I haven't reached that advanced level yet. The PM techniques that I know are mostly quick and heavy strikes in different combinations.

There are always friends of the attacker who will be witness to what you do in your own defense.
Tell them to grab a beer and enjoy the show.:D If they're his friends, then they'll try to stop the fight. If not, then they either fear him, or don't mind watching you get grabbed by the neck and punched in the face.

A punch in a bar or at a dance does not merit certain defense techniques. It is a sad thing, but true.

I agree totally, fully, and absolutely. Still, in a street fight, defend yourself with the techniques you know will work. Experiment with new techniques during sparring sessions. Experiment with new techniques in a tournament if you don't mind risking a loss. But in a street fight, DON'T EXPERIMENT. You don't know if your opponent will stop hitting you when your arm or leg is broken. You don't know if he will stop hitting you if you're lying unconsious on the floor.

[ged]

thanks for clearing it up for me bokfu, just to reiterate - at the time i had no training - not sure if i was even aware of the difference between a roundhouse and a cross. my question was what are some techniques i could use now, after 1.5 years training.
Art D - wish it was that simple, but would it have been worth ****ing up his elbow, and more importantly, possible expulsion (my school was strict and stupid about fights) when there may have been a less permanent method of defense? the way i figure, cracked ribs and noses heal.

[Art D]

original post reads. I studied NPM for three years, since then i have never been in a brawl, only sparred with a couple well disciplined ma that i trusted could hold their own(so noone gets hurt too badly).

so many techniques in pm are designed to destroy an opponent, bone breaking being the most merciful with cavity and pressure point attacks coming very naturally, right?
now what if you got into a semi dangerous situation, but not necessarily a life threatening one?
would you feel comfortable that you could apply the appropriate amount of control without overdoing it and finding yourself in the courtroom later for using excessive force?

are alot of the pm techniques a little bit too viscious in todays society with today's laws?

the original post you never said anything about school yard fights! It asked about Semi dangerous situation. What is that ? is what I asked . Is possibile expulusion more fearful to you than posible death?

Again from my original post to the original ?

What is semi dangerous? I rember a story on the news not long ago of this kid , just about to graduate from high school , got killed ! one punch to his temple. I say its all dangerous! who knows whats going down. better to be tried by 12 than caried by 6. The ? is not excesive force ,it is did you stop when the attackt was defened and over or did you become the attaker at that point. Read the law, on the use of force and deadly force. we have the Fl statuese in my school for evryone to read. It's important to know your rights and those of others.

[BeiTangLang]

The technique I was thinking of uses the palms not the fore-arms.
If I said that earlier I appologize. Trust me though, bent arm or not, the palms work there _very_ well. :D
There are many techniques that work in this situation that I know of that are not listed, but that would take a long time to write them. There are also different things to do when up against a wall that work extreemly well.
Interesting conversation. Thanks to all that participated!
Best Wishes,
~BTL

[mantisben]

Originally posted by ged
just about the choking thing - at a school dance, a guy pushed me, i pushed back, he started choking me with 2 hands (i had bruises on my neck the next day) and screaming at me to punch him. at this point i had no training at all, and launched a weak right cross. he kept his left hand on my neck, drew back his right and punched me 3 times in the mouth, knocking 2 of my permanent teeth out. he was 2 years older than me.

I'm sorry you had to go through this situation, and I hope you never have to go through something like this again. Train hard, and do your best not to get into a fight.

[ged]

thanks mantisben, me too :D

sorry for the hijacking theneuhauser, but in my defense, its still related :)

[theneuhauser]

let the threads go where they will, i dont own it and im not a "stay on topic" kind of guy either.

i want to address something that has not been mentioned yet in everyone's applications.

getting choked hurts. a one handed choke is applied to your esophagus, it only takes a second and some decent pressure to collapse the windpipe, you can continue choking and die after the assailant's grip is released.
now why the heck would you attack the choking arm sideways? 2 things can happen-1-you might not apply the strike strongly or accurately(being choked doesnt necessarily increase your skills you know) and the result is you are still getting choked or -2- you might strike the opponents choke arm hard enough that your neck tries to come off with his hand putting you in a world of hurt.

try this folks, tell me how you like it.
take your outside arm and drop it across the choking arm's elbow, press down. two things can and will happen here-1-the elbow gets lowered to the point where the pressure exerted on your throat all but dissappears-2-you bring him in so close that his free hand will have a hard time executing any decent punches and now your legs are close enough to go to town with some really good low kicks.
thats the first step. now try crashing the clavicle on the choke arm with your free hand to disable the arm, slide the freehand down the choke arm, switch your grip to that hand and you can quickly follow with a chop to the adam's apple, and you can even slide that hand back down his arm to free that inside hand back up and attack the other collar bone(largely unnecessary at this point but the action is so fast).
anyhow, the most important part here is to control the choke arm by placing your weight on top of that elbow in order to save your neck, and then the rest is optional.