Sifu Victor Guiterrez

[IRONMONK]

here is a quote from Sifu Guiterrez article on power punching:

"you learn how to extract the force of the blows from ur lower stomach(lower dantien)so that u strike in a more relaxed way but with more power and with the sensation of not using any force.The dantien or pelvic area starts to be the source of all strength and the capacity to absorb the opponents energy."

Ok when i do chi sao i find that tilting the pelvis upward and sinking help me to be more relaxed and give forward pressure. So obviously this should help with increasing the power of the punch i.e more stable and power is from the ground!!!
But i am not sure if i should let my fist go out and then tilt pelvis/sink action just after or is it done at the same time or is the pelvistilt/sink which makes my fist go forward(i,e so im not trying to punch)?
any advice will b appreciated
regards.

Faze.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Just keep your body still when you punch. Don't try to punch with power. Just be relaxed and keep your whole body in position. position is the key.

[yuanfen]

Who is Guiterrez and why is emphasiizing the dan tien as opposed to the rest of the structure. Sounds like imitation of taichi again.
atleastiamnothimoryou

[Matrix]

It is the elephant's tail, and snaps like a whip. ;)

Matrix

[AndrewS]

Hey Faze,

Where'd you find the Gutierrez article? I'd love to check out what he's saying.

He's a good fighter, and perhaps I should snag a copy of his tapes and look again, but what I last saw of him, he wasn't using the torso mechanic your passage describes (which is a crib from taiji).

WT uses the torso in many subtle ways to generate and diffuse power, with some cross-over to the dan tien model, but ultimately I have found that approach to be a blind alley. While we use the 'dragon back' that is being alluded to by Hendrik in another thread, IMHO, that's a Biu Tze mechanic, and something of a breaking of our own structure (though it can be used with great stability and power). Presently, I work more from midback than dan tien- something described in Xing Yi as the bear back (and no, that's not a Trojan comment).

Rambling aside- grab an anatomy book, a skeleton, and start imaging various rubber bands in places. Loose the esoteric chinese terminology, it can easily lead you down blind alleys.

I can't see you punching, so I can't tell you what to do. Moreover, there are a couple of ways to punch.

If it's any consolation, obsessing on this stuff and constantly refining it is a constant process in people who develop and continue to improve their skills.

Later,

Andrew

[IRONMONK]

Hi Andrew,

The quote comes from an article called "advanced combat techniques" in a magazine called "budo international"-he compares the different features of the various forms.

You mention about "dragon back" and "bear back" can u expand more on what u mean by this(i have no clue)-is this anything to do with the chest lifting that i have seen some instructors do when they punch.

yeah i have been trying to understand(research) the various ways of power development.I am looking at the following ideas:

1.at a seminar GGM Leung Ting mentioned that power is generated by using the joints in the body.
2.he also mention the fook sau in the SNT that u do three times and the tension u feel in the forearms develops the forearm strength required for the "long bridge power"
3.ives seen some instructors get ppl push onto their stances and they can hold their stance or push against against an extended punch etc.- i think this has something to do with power developmnt!!!


well anyway this stuff will keep me busy for a lifetime!!!
regards,

faze(ps thank you for ur email reply-it was very helpful)

[yuanfen]

Faze sez:1.at a seminar GGM Leung Ting mentioned that power is generated by using the joints in the body.
2.he also mention the fook sau in the SNT that u do three times and the tension u feel in the forearms develops the forearm strength required for the "long bridge power"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some observations- not criticisms.
WT certainly seems to evolve. In the first big WT book different types of punches and kicks werent there. later WT began to discuss uppercuts, hooks etc.
No discussion of joints--- now joints.
I dont know about fook sao tension and long bridge power.
Did you hear him right? Tension in the fok sao?

[AndrewS]

Faze,

is there an online site for the Gutierrez article?

Dragon back- basically whip out from your hips to your hands in a continuous wave, possibly fixing the hips or pulling them back to 'crack the whip'. The wavy weird forward step is a way people often muck about to explore this. Pakua, Xing Yi, Bak Mei, Dragon, and White Crane all use some variants on this one.

Bear back- move from the middle of the spine (aka the solar plexus from the front, aka the heart as in 'the punch comes from the heart'). Power will go to hip and shoulder at once, coordinating hip and shoulder to interact with elbow and knee. This is most clearly expressed in the double spearing motion of Chum Kiu.

If you want to chase the good stuff for power and structure, I'd recommend catching up with my si-sok Jannis in Mannheim, or Andy Cross ion the UK, who is now training with him. Put bluntly, the EWTO guys tend to work much more soft and technically, and hence don't explore power much. One of my friends, Simon is gonna head back from LA to the UK- he's junior but can coached into doing things the right way, and is capable of explaining a bit.

E-mail me or join the WCML and bring some of this stuff up, it can lead to some fun discussion.

Glad to help,

Andrew

Joy,

I see the tone of your discourse has changed little over the years. Were you interesting in having a discussion on teachers who have modified what they were taught and the basis of their knowlege?

Later,

Andrew

[planetwc]

Here is a clip of Guiterrez Sifu in action.

http://www.wingchun.com/video/wt/PortugueseWTguy.mpeg

http://people.zeelandnet.nl/ejkoch/movies/WT2.mpg

The second video really showcases Victor in action, it is rather long so you will get a good sense of his techniques in action.


Originally posted by yuanfen
Who is Guiterrez and why is emphasiizing the dan tien as opposed to the rest of the structure. Sounds like imitation of taichi again.
atleastiamnothimoryou

[planetwc]

Punching

http://www.oewtbpa.kit.net/videos/sifu_hans_s_correntes.mpeg

Elbows

http://www.oewtbpa.kit.net/videos/02_wingtsun[1].mpeg

And of course Emin Boztepe throwing down...

http://people.zeelandnet.nl/ejkoch/movies/WT_training.mpg

Saving the best for last....

The secret back kick

http://www.oewtbpa.kit.net/clips/backkick_1.mpeg

[yuanfen]

Andrew S:Joy,

I see the tone of your discourse has changed little over the years.
((Andrew- I have no control over your perceptions of tone-past or present)
Were you interesting in having a discussion on teachers who have modified what they were taught and the basis of their knowlege?

(The point being? I have never argued for rote memorization
or statics.
I made an observation based on what Faze posted- not a condemnation. Joy))

[tnwingtsun]

"Dragon back- basically whip out from your hips to your hands in a continuous wave,"

Close,but no cigar.

This was something cool I found in the WT training that I had no
problem with,it is close (not exact),but close enough in
concept to the "Dragon Back" I trained in Bai Mei/Bak Mei,in
Bai Mei the whip comes from the ground up/more power.


AndrewS

"Put bluntly, the EWTO guys tend to work much more soft and technically, and hence don't explore power much."

My EWTO Si-Suk doesen't fit in the class of your obsevations
on the power issue.

yuanfen,

Some observations on your observations,books don't always tell the whole story.

[aelward]

AndrewS writes:
>Rambling aside- grab an anatomy book, a skeleton, and start
>imaging various rubber bands in places.

LOL, spoken by a true doctor. Of course, me knowing that you are in medicine so as to know how better to destroy someone, I bet you are imagining how you plan on snapping those rubber bands. j/k, we know you swore the hippocratic oath somewhere along the way :P

hope all is well.

[yuanfen]

David- thanks for sharing the videos.

Tnwingtsun- of course books and pictures dont tell the whole story.

[Neo]

Hi Andrew S

when you train with Simon McMahon, give him an extra dig from me and his UK guys from Luton and Dunstable. Especially when he's been hitting that tequila and street ladies!!!

laters!

Alasdair Kirby

[Nichiren]

Hi

One more movie: Boztepe against Cheung at www.mcdojo.com

Have fun
/Cheers

[red5angel]

I especially like the face he makes when he chain punches, it looks real relaxed and from the dantien to me.
I love these guys who talk like they know what they should be doing but then turn around and do something else anyway. these WT guys always talk about. Lets talk about using the dantien but then generate all our force from the shoulders. How does that work?
I wouldn't mind these guys so much if they didn't associate what they do with wing chun. I have never seen these chain punching maniacs used relaxed power. They love to talk like they do. This V. Guiterrez talks like he knows what he is talking about, but then you go to look at the video tapes and there he is all tightened up and chain punching away like thats all wing chun has to offer. Of course for some of you guys its as "as long as they can fight well " or "we all do it our own way" but other then a few tight, speedy techniques I dont see anything resembling what wing chun should be teaching them.

"but ultimately I have found that approach to be a blind alley."

LOL! Sometimes Andrew S it is not the alley that is blind......

[AndrewS]

TNWingTsun- Mike Strange? That you?

I'm throwing out examples- you can nitpick from art to art. I'm sure the each art I named can chime in on their particulars, but the basic is that 'wave' up the back. The point I was making is that I think there are limitations and dangers to that approach, as I understand it.

Your EWTO si-sok? Christian Lauer? Christian *rocks*! He totally clued me in on some core basics, years ago. That being said, Faze is training in Great Britain, and I've heard a bit about the present curriculum there (and in various parts of Europe).

John- I have no idea what you're talking about, I've *never* tried to play chi sao with a skeleton. Or bugged my coroner friend to let me test joint destructions on the fresh meat (and no, he wouldn't let me).

Alasdair- a practice without hearing Simon scream is barely a practice at all. I'll tell him hey and give him some goodbye bruises before he heads to Fiji this weekend.

Red- you *really* are clueless, aren't you. Illiterate, stupid, and annoying. Your line may choose to teach all Wing Chun as whole body motion, mine uses whole when it needs to and pieces when it needs to. My initial post stated that I didn't think Guiterrez was using the mechanic described in his article, and mentioned the mechanic I find more useful. If you look at the clip of Guiterrez, it becomes obvious that he uses much more than chain punching with local motion backed by bodyweight and pressure- the elbows show some nice hip useage and sinking, and he moves people out using the floor well. I've heard WT people make similar criticisms of Gutierrez- stiff, muscular, etc. His approach and teaching are very application oriented and his guys find their mechanics through application and are, IMHO, more muscular. In the words of the Anti-Nowhere League- 'SFW'.

Later,

Andrew

[red5angel]

Riiiiiiiiiight. I guess the leaning back while they are chain punching is probably a good example of body structure to someone. I also suppose that if you have big strong shoulder then firing your thousand chain punches at someone would work pretty well. SFW? Well Andrew, when does WC teach you to be stiff or to muscle in on your opponent? I didint see any hip action when he was throwing those chain punches, just an angry face and a lot of tense shoulder. Maybe ha has learned to take all of that energy from the dantien and transfer it to his shoulders for safe keeping? Besides why concentrate on techniques so much if the basics havent been undertsood yet?
IMHO you SFW attitude is going to kill you in training.......
Shouldnt loose your temper so quickly AndyS, the minute you loose your temper the minute you loose the game.....

[AndrewS]

Red,

Leaning? Not really.

And yes, if you power your punches locally, the muscles most involved in developing power will hypertrophy to a degree. You seem to be shouting that guy is hammering the nail wrong yet he somehow manages to put together a house which will stand well.

As to losing my temper and loosing the game- what game Red? What sort of game would you like to play?

Andrew

[red5angel]

AndrewS, He MIGHT be a good fighter, but that is not good wingchun he is doing. On top of that why would he talk about doing it the right way but turn around and do it all wrong? Its a common disease in my opinion. You dont call what they are doing leaning? OK, SFW right?
Any game andrew, as a good wing chun man you should know that by now.....;)

[Buddha_Fist]

Red5: You mentioned to have participated in a Boztepe seminar. What do you think about him? Did you touch hands with him? If so, what was your impression?

As someone pointed out earlier, when talking about WT you can't generalize ALL things. Here's another link (go for the first two videos: "Download Teil 1" and "Download Teil 2")

http://www.defenceclub.de/gratisdownloads/gratisdownloads.html

I think these videos show how WT guys usually do their stuff. Gutierrez goes a bit into one extreme, although there are also others that are too soft.

[red5angel]

Buddha_fist, I will try to be as objective as possible here. Boztepe was much too stiff and hard in my opinion. He is fast and he is strong, and I have no doubt about his ability to fight, but what he calls wing chun to me, isnt. Its the same with Guiterrez, he looks much like Boztepe imho. I have never met him but they look very similar. I dont have beef with them as fighters but as wingchun guys because I have never seen anything to convince me they are training the concepts and ideas for which they pay word of mouth to. Essentially they talk the talk but do not walk the walk.

[Atleastimnotyou]

R5A
I agree.

[tnwingtsun]

"TNWingTsun- Mike Strange? That you?"

Close,Mike was my Si-hing and may I add not only was he one
of the best teachers I've EVER had but he can hold his own and then some with most people I've met.

"Your EWTO si-sok? Christian Lauer? Christian *rocks*! He totally clued me in on some core basics, years ago."

Thats HIM!
I tig welded a sword hand guard for him and took him out on the town when he came over,great guy,learned alot from him,saying he has a great eye for detail would be the understatment of the century,hope to see him again some day! :)

PM me sometime,we'll talk more. :)

red5angel-"because I have never seen anything to convince me they are training the concepts and ideas for which they pay word of mouth to."

How long have you trained??

"because I have never seen anything to convince me"

"because I have never seen anything to convince me"

"because I have never seen anything to convince me"

Well there are ALOT of "US" that have and thats enough.

And always remember,"ME" is a $hity word.

Semper Fi

;)

[red5angel]

Me, is not a $hitty word.
As for WT, alot of people saw a lot of things in chungmoodo, or in Charles Manson as well. The propoganda machine rolls on but WT is still not wing chun. No relaxed energy, no real solid structure, rather roll around on the ground and do chain punches then I guess WT is for you. I have met a couple of your boys who have seen differently and wasnt real impressed with their Wing Tsun. Just last month I saw all the tiny people in an EBMAS school getting knocked around by their bigger brothers while their instructor was talking about how little people should be able to use it effectively. It might be a good fighting stratey for some bigger stronger faster people but I will beg to differ on calling it wingchun.

Semper Fi Brother

[tnwingtsun]

To each his own,I've seen great,good and bad WT.

The same goes for WC,I like the great stuff,weather it be WT/WC or VT.



Question,is Eddie Chong a part of your group as listed on your site?

Your answer will lead to another question.

[red5angel]

Negative, Michael and Howard Learned from a student of Eddies for about 9 years. When they met Ken and then through him Carl they gave up what they had learned to start over.

Like I said, I wouldnt say WT is not a valid fighting system by any means, I just have a hard time calling it wingchun.

[old jong]

We can see these two tendances in all lines and family's of Wing Chun.Sometimes a very hard Sifu can come from a very soft line and vice-versa!...Some like it more "physical" and some are secret Tai-Chi lovers and that's all!
But in the end,a good punch on the nose is always a good punch on the nose!...;)

[tnwingtsun]

old jong-one round beezil,in other words you hit the bullseye.

[AndrewS]

Red5Angel-

ready for any game? My, what lovely confidence! I used to get annoyed at such wide-eyed optimism. After the past few years, I simply sadly realize that life will beat it mercilessly as it takes people into less and less tenable situations.

As to sifu Emin, tension, relaxation, and softness. I've been training with sifu for over eight years now, and my experience is very different from your opinion (and that of many others, notably Ray Raamsdonk, who has some nice articles up on both Ken and sifu Emin). When he wants to stay, it's like trying to move a thick rubber tire- a slight feel of give but very solid. Despite that, if he decides to be light you'll never feel anything more than just less than the pressure required to break friction between skin contact points on your wrists, no matter how hard you try to put force on him.

What sifu teaches and says, he can pull off at speed, and at will. His expression of the art conforms **** well to the basic principles of Wing Chun, as I understand them.

As to size- so in your view, size and strength are immaterial to abilty to apply when two people are working on the same material?

TMWingTsun-

e-mail me at razorbladekiss23@yahoo.com

BTW- I presume you know Michael Palmer, Rod, John, and Keith, too?

Later,

Andrew

[tnwingtsun]

Red5Angel,I find it very hard to belive that you've crossed hands with Emin.

Emin is anything but "Stiff",hate to say it bro,but you're way over your head.

By the same token focus on your Sifu's teaching and when you feel that you've reached the point where you can walk the walk as well as talk the talk then you can test yourself,after all
if you don't its a wasted day,I feel when you reach that point
other's linages will no longer matter.

You should know that many have become room temp underestimating others,your linage or mine,if you grow(and I have faith that you will) someday you may look back and see
that you went through the same thing as I and others have that
We are better than the rest and the real thing.

Most of the people I've trained with in WT are top of the line.

I got lucky.

WT is not the only lineage I have to Yip Man,you'd be suprised
(and maybe shocked) what Leung Sheung kept to himself from Yip Man.

Thus endith sermon.

Semper Fi Mac

AndrewS,yes I do,I'll be in touch.

[Buddha_Fist]

"WT is not the only lineage I have to Yip Man,you'd be suprised
(and maybe shocked) what Leung Sheung kept to himself from Yip Man."

tnwingtsun: This one caught my attention. I've been lucky to learn from my Sifu some of the elements that in the Leung Sheung lineage are from his influence, not from Yip Man. However I am still a beginner with a quite limited knowledge.

I would appreciate if you could elaborate on your statement. Are you referring to what Leung Sheung knew before meeting Yip Man?

Regards! :)

[S.Teebas]

Appears differeent lines have different ideas on what level of relaxation used in WC.

I personally find being as relaxed as possible (like when you wake up) while maintaining structure (able to transmit force) gives me best results for both:
* Ability to stay unaffected to outside force.
* Endrance (not really using much muscle..just ligament to turn joint in order to redirect)

Red5angel,
Perhaps you could explain/discuss in technical ways what you see. Usually smacking people in face with 'My way is better now accept it!" is not the most constructive.

[Neo]

Im getting a bit fed up with reading R5A slagging off WT. We all have views on other people's WC. Here in the UK, I have experienced what some of the other WC lineages have to offer. I chose WT because it answered questions I had and offered far more than the Ip Chun lineages I had trained under had shown me. As AndrewS said, there are other systems that have something to offer too. I train occasionally with someone from the Ip Ching / Ron Heimberger lineage and have picked up some great pointers.

Stop airing your self opinionated views of WT on here. We could all spend our time sl@gging each others systems off (heck, even I sometimes laugh to myself at what some people teach in the other WC lineages) but I try to keep opinions to myself, because life is too short. Be positive, not negative.

I have to agree with tnwingtsun, your views of Emin are way over your head. Those in the know respect him, regardless of lineage.