Baijiquan and PiguaZhang LInks ????

[dre_doggX]

Articles are cool but I want to see links on these martial arts.

[RAF]

dre_doggX:

I am not sure what you mean by links. If you go the links section of the homepage of www.wutangcenter.com, there are links to the wutan(g) schools. If you are speaking of references, they are listed in the reference and note section at the end of each article.

If there is anything else you want or if you want to discuss this privately, please e-mail my address at the forum.

[HongQuan]

If I were to study from anyone in the Liu Yun Chiao lineage I'd study either Baji or Piqua. These are the only 2 styles that I feel Liu was a master of. When I look at his other styles, Praying Mantis, Bagua, Xing-I, etc...they all seem to be "influenced" by his Baji/Piqua. For instance, when I saw one of Su's students doing Bagua he was using stomping along with the signature elbows. The same goes for Adam Hsu' Praying Mantis. Liu was known for his Baji/Piqua and that's what I think they should advertise, not the other styles.

[Liu Yun Qaio]

For instance, when I saw one of Su's students doing Bagua he was using stomping along with the signature elbows. The same goes for Adam Hsu' Praying Mantis. Liu was known for his Baji/Piqua and that's what I think they should advertise, not the other styles.

That's true about Su. His bagua looks like Mantisbajibaguazhang. For Chen and Baji you should see Adam Hsu, if you can pin him down in one location long eneough. But if you were looking for Bagua you should pick one of the instructors who was in the bagua group.

dre_doggX

Look on Su Yu Changs site for Baji clips and info. "http://www2.micro-net.com/~ycsu/mastersu.html"

[count]

That's what most of the students at Wu Tang thought. All they wanted was Baji. They couldn't see the gold beneath there feet. But I don't think it's fair to judge Liu Yun Chaio by a student of Su Yu Chang's.

dre_doggX,

Check out http://bajimen.com/

RAF, I'm trying to figure out a way to swing by Ohio for a visit. I'll e-mail later.

[HongQuan]

Did I forget to mention that Su was right there while he was doing the form and overseeing his movements?

[Liu Yun Qaio]

Did I forget to mention that Su was right there while he was doing the form and overseeing his movements?

Was he making popcorn?

[RAF]

I see we are back to defining who has a right to teach and claim bagua and who doesn't have a right. I can't speak for others but you are dead wrong regarding Liu's bagua. You can call Tony Yang any time and ask him anything you want about what he learned from Liu. But what the hell, its all opinion anyway, right?

Since you are in contact with Su, why don't you simply go up and ask what he is doing and explain to him why his bagua is "wrong"? He can speak for himself.

However, where did you get the idea that GM Liu taught praying mantis?
__________________________________________________ __
"The account of Grandmaster Liu's discipleship with Great Grandmaster Ding can be found in previous pages. The picture on the right was taken during this time (the original photo was kept by Grandmaster Liu). The young man in black was Grandmaster Liu. Standing to the left was Ding ZiCheng. Mr. Zhang XianSan, whom we mentioned earlier, was standing on the far left of the photo. He was Grandmaster Liu's fellow disciple under Ding. Both Zhang and Liu came to Taiwan separately during late 1940's, and was reunited through mutual friends. Because Zhang was senior to Grandmaster Liu both in age and under Ding's discipleship, Grandmaster Liu never taught liuhetanglang in Taiwan. Any students who were interested in this style were always referred, by Grandmaster Liu, to Zhang. When Grandmaster Liu visited Toronto in 1981 and was asked about the finer details of the style through Mr. Guo's copy of Ding ZiCheng's hand-written "Tang Lang Shou Fa Mi Jui", Grandmaster Liu demonstrated a mastery of Six Harmony Mantis techniques and was able to explain the techniques in great detail. Even though he had not publicly taught this style for almost half of a century, he was able to remember and perform all the routines with ease. It was evident that Grandmaster Liu's reluctance to teach the style was out of respect of his senior. This reflected the respect and loyalty among the older generation of Chinese martial artists."

Allen Chen and James Guo
__________________________________________________ __
You assume that GM Liu taught 6 harmony praying mantis. GM Liu sent all of his formal students to Zhang XianSan. Six harmony mantis was the only praying mantis he practiced and knew and he never taught the system publicly or privately. You better read what Adam wrote about where he learned his praying mantis, including 6 harmony mantis.

Liu didn't teach Xing Yi. Tony went to San Deng Qi for it and spent 3 years with him. For Chen's taijiquan, he sent them to Du Yu Ze.

Was there someone Liu was supposed to send his students to for bagua? Hmmmmm, maybe I missed something.

People make all kind of assumptions about Liu Yun Qiao and don't know what they are talking about.

There will be future articles regarding the Gong Bao Tian bagua Liu Yun Qiao taught. You don't have to read the articles, you don't have to take any classes, you don't have to believe how to use the four types of internal strength, or jings we train: guen (rolling), zuan (drilling), zheng (piercing) Guo (wrapping) in application to bagua posts, and you can ask Count to show you the Chinese documentation of Liu as Gong Bao Tian's student and not believe that too. You can claim anything you want regarding lineage or even hide behind false lineages.

So why are you so concerned what the Wu Tang people do?

You should spend less time worrying about what Wu Tang does and more time on what you do. No one has a gun to your head demanding that you learn from Su or anyone. You are a free man.

You can even come here and ask Tony Yang any specific questions you wish regarding the bagua. Rockwood, a Luo Dexiu student, was here twice and you can ask him about Tony and how he was treated, publicly or privately.

Better yet, why don't you simply put your information and system out to the public and let the "market" choose. There are other teachers of Gong Bao Tian's bagua and other videos.

Thats what's nice about the free enterpise system, its all about choice. Shocking, isn't it :eek: :eek:

[count]

Liu didn't teach Xing Yi. Tony went to San Deng Qi for it and spent 3 years with him. For Chen's taijiquan, he sent them to Du Yu Ze. Was there someone Liu was supposed to send his students to for bagua? Hmmmmm, maybe I missed something.

Might be that's where some of this animosity started. Somebody thought they should have been the recipient or they were somehow senior lineage holder and should have received Master Liu's bagua students? Of the hundreds of students he had that weren't that many bagua students in the first place. Oh well, doesn't matter that much. What matters is how it spreads. The hate seems to be spreading like a fire around here. First it was John Painter, than Park Bok Nam, now could it be Liu Yun Chaio? Naaaaa! Couldn't be.

I guess I'm out of this one too. When you guys finish burning and your hate is extinguished, call me.

[RAF]

Count:
I was being sarcastic. I know a lot more about this than I've let on and am not interested in going into it or talking about other teachers. I hope to see you in Ohio

Now back to my original point and I will also keep it simple:

This is about baji/pigua not about Gong Bao Tian's bagua or any of the other styles Liu mastered.

You can start another bagua thread and say anything you want. I promise I won't look or comment because I have heard it all before and continue to hear it. It wouldn't surprise me if someone started a "I hate Liu Yun Qiao website".

Regardless of what anyone says, this will not stop the dissemination of the material my teacher, Tony Yang wants to publish. If you got a problem with the material or the "truth of his experience", take it up with him. He is the one who spent 8 years with Liu and he can answer you best regarding what he claims or has me write.

We (Wutang Center here in Ohio) don't and can't speak for anyone else. You can take your issues directly to Su, Adam Hsu (if you are in Taiwan), Jason Tsou, James Guo (I see nobody posts these questions on his website) or any of the listed first and second generation of Liu's formal students. If you are in Flushing NY, go talk to Ma Long.

I am finished posting content or debating Liu's bagua on this forum. You can read about it in the upcoming year and let the "market" determine its value.

Meanwhile, enjoy the baji/pigua article, if you like it, try to take a seminar in it. We hope to have basic training tapes set up in the future and encourage to stop by the school if you are in the area.

[blacktaoist]

Man you guys up here are a joke. All you people seem to talk about his Bull$hit so times, nothing practical. If its not forms you are talking about , then its lineage. You guys are not even of Chinese descent and fighting over who is right and who is wrong about lineage. Man sometimes you guys can act well ****ing dumb.

Raf & count I myself can careless about you guys method or where the hell you got it from. You guys talk about hate, but you attack HongQuan (who is of chinese descent) because he is posting his opinions about Liu's Ba Gua Zhang.

That shows everybody up here that you guys always think your right in everything, even if you are wrong. I know HongQuan myself , and one thing I can say he is a Lineage holder of Goung Bao Tian's Ba Gua Method, not Liu's. So if anybody up here on KFO have good information about Goung Bao Tian's Ba Gua Zhang it would be this man.


He already point out Baji/Piqua characteristics in you guys Ba Gua form, So his post was good information for me and most people up here that don't Know much about Gong Bao Tian's Ba Gua system. I don't see any hate in his post at all, maybe its in you guys head of something. Hong Quan so far post nothing but good information. And I hope He get posting more information.

You guys need to cool the hell out with this hate Bull$hit, who say you guys information is always right.

Like I said I don't care about the Ba Gua Method you guys practice, But what I do know about Liu's bagua is he only train in ba gua Zhang with Goung Bao Tian's for only two years, Now even if he did train for 8 hours every day With Goung Bao Tian as your boy count claims, thats not going to make the man a master, no one can master Ba Gua Zhang that fast, even if they was a master of other styles as Liu was.

And Liu was a master of other chinese martial arts before he learned Ba Gua Zhang. The man was known to be a great fighter already, no one is taking that from the man. But anyone that looks at Liu Ba Gua form can see the Baji or Piqua influences in His method of Ba Gua Zhang.

Bottom line is, what matters is can you guys use what you learned. You can talk all this lineage Bull, But most of the time the people talking can't apply the techniques of the past masters they are talking about.


The hate seems to be spreading like a fire around here. First it was John Painter, than Park Bok Nam, now could it be Liu Yun Chaio? Naaaaa! Couldn't be.

Count no one wants to hear your Bull$hit about hate, this is a talk forum, So thats what people do up here is talk. If you don't like what HongQuan said then don't post. If there is any animosity going on for anybody then I have to say. The hate is all for me, you guys be the last person on people mind. What can I say I'm the only African American with a Ba Gua Zhang Web Site, and mother****ers don't like it. To ****ing Bad.

There is a lot of people up here that act like their friends , but in the end they are trying to **** you over. I look out for a lot of mother****ers up here on KFO with information, hook them up with Ba Gua teachers, sent them Video tapes, **** they never seen, but in the end mother****ers try to play me. Mother****ers from KFO be killing my E-mail for information.

For now on I'm not looking out for any of you mother****ers up here on KFO. And you know who you are. The bottom line is, when it comes to me talking about Ba Gua Zhang, I'm going to tell you the real deal and a lot of you I-ching mythology heads, so called lineage head mother****ers don't like it. To ****ing bad welcome to the real world of Ba Gua Zhang the HBO SIDE."

What you need to do is talk real practical information about your style of Ba Gua Zhang then trying to act like you mother****ers are high level Ba Gua scholars.

[count]

WTF, a man on a mission. What ever it is your so upset about is between you and me. All I said was I didn't think it was fair for HongQuan to judge Liu Yun Chaio by a form of a student of Su Yu Changs. Certainly no disrespect to HongQuan. I don't even know the man. No speak of I-ching, No speak of lineage, No speak of hate except of hate toward me. Only talking about what goes on in our schools.


HongQuan, if you are still looking at this crap, I swear to god I mean you no disrespect.

[blacktaoist]

Count you are full of $hit , I told you that in the E-mails and I tell you that Here On KFO.

Like I told you in the E-mail count , I don't care if you don't come to Maoshan Ba Gua Zhang tournament, if you come, you come. If not I don't give a fly ****. You are nobody in the Ba Gua Zhang world to me, That I'm looking to train under. So what the hell would I care you show up or not.

I put my money down you can't use one thing you ever post on KFO about Ba Gua Zhang and I'm willing to find out. Yo are ****ing Right, I'm a man on a mission, to see who real and who is telling the truth In the Ba Gua Zhang world. I see nothing wrong in seeking the Truth. The real $hit!!!!!!!


If you have skill then I going to do my best to find the **** out. Just Call me the Ba Gua F.B.I mother****er. Got nothing to do with being upset, thats just your way of getting around ****. people like you always try to make nothing in to something that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.



You have made it clear how you feel about our stuff. Same is true for you, if you don't like what we post, you don't have to read it either. But since you guys have already made up your minds about everybody else's stuff, what's the point of this tournament?

Like I said my Classmate Maoshan don't have anything to do with my viewpoints about your Style of Ba Gua Zhang. So don't say guys. This opinions is all me , I don't like your so called Yin Ba Gua Zhang Method thats all to it., nothing to do with your Sifu, Maoshan, or anybody on KFO Or any of the Ba Gua Teachers that will be at the tournament. Any Ba Gua Practitioner that comes to The All Ba Gua tournament will be welcome with respect, no matter what my Viewpoints are about their Ba Gua Zhang method.

Even with all the beef I had With Park's people, if any of them come as competitors I' ll put my feelings to the side and welcome them as Martial artist. So don't try to use Maoshan up coming tournament. To make your Bull$hit point.



No speak of lineage, No speak of hate except of hate toward me. Only talking about what goes on in our schools.



I never knew a person opinion can be interpret as hate just because they don't agree with the information your ass is putting out count. I was always taught the definition was Belief, veiw, sentiment, idea, viewpoint..Ect..Ect..Ect Can you show me in any english Dictionary where the word opinion is interpret as hate or definition as hate? Like I said people like you are always making nothing out of something. You are just Full of $hit. If any one upset up on KFO Its your opinionated ass, because HongQuan give his viewpoints about Liu's Ba Gua Zhang.


No speak of lineage, No speak of hate except of hate toward me. Only talking about what goes on in our schools.


Man you Boy Raf Whole post is talking about Lineage, $hit his post is like a short lineage biography. Like I told you before I have no time for your Bull$hit games count. And everybody that can read can see you are talking about Bull$hit lineage ., as if its going to help you with developing your own skill level, you mother****ers need help.

Best way to know if your Ba Gua is Good is just to crosshands with other Yin Style pratitioner, is that to hard for you to do? That way you can see who Ba Gua Zhang method is better. Talking like girls about past Ba Gua masters skills is just a big waste of Time.

In the old days this his how they did it, and this is how it should be done today.

[Daredevil]

I'm certain anyone's styles are going to be influenced by the art one has practised for the longest time, or initially, or with full focus. That is not necessarily a bad thing, unless lineage or purity is what is important. It's not bad as long as you can apply your stuff and what you're learning is contributing to your overall skills as a warrior.

I'm sure my teacher's baji has influenced his bagua, for example. I'm dead certain my baji has influenced how I see taijiquan. I don't care about pure or impure as long as it works. I don't care if my taiji has baji flavor. It's all my interpretation.

Of course, there are certain principles which constitute a style. Break those and you can't use the actual jings, but as long as you can do that, it's all good.

Anyway, that's how I see it. Purity of style is just another trap to limit our growth and change into a better fighter.

Not saying anything about anyone's bagua, though. That's not my bag of tricks, so not for me say.

[Brad]

what's a jing?

[dre_doggX]

please send more links

[RAF]

dre_doggX

We don't have anymore links.

Brad:

There was a post not far back arguing about jin v. jing and the characters associated with jing.

Its on the board somewhere.

Jing used in these terminologies refers to internal strengths and the easiest to see, in my opinion, is the chan si jing, common to all Northern styles.