10 years of training

[Knifefighter]

In an earlier thread I was trying to start a dialog about what you should expect from a 10 year martial arts practitioner. Let’s see if I can put this in more politically correct terms:

Should a kung fu practitioner with 10 years experience be able to beat someone with no experience, assuming he isn’t outweighed by more than 30 pounds or so? I know a variety of systems in which there would be no contest. Put someone with no training against a boxer, Muay Thai fighter, BJJ’er, Judoka, or wrestler with 10 years training and he will be totally, absolutely, and completely dominated even if the session is just a friendly, easy one. After the session is over there will be no question at all about who is better. It would be next to impossible for someone to complete 10 years of training in any of the above systems and not be able to dominate someone with no experience. My question is this, would you expect the same from a kung fu practitioner, or are the standards different?

[prana]

if he trained properly, after 10 years, he should be awoken in the internal arts (prividing this is TCM) otherwise, I wouldnt know.

I think after 10 years, a persons instinct to fight becomes very disciplined, and is more concerned with internal workings than fighting ability. Of course, further developments strengthens both :)

http://dharmatours.com/hbmc/Prwhbl1.gif

[SifuAbel]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Put someone with no training against a boxer, Muay Thai fighter, BJJ&sbquo; Judoka, or wrestler with 10 years training
and he will be totally, absolutely, and completely dominated even if the session is just a friendly, easy one. [/quote]

Your a nalogy is skewed and quite unrealistic. A friendly match is just that, friendly. Exchanging a few blows back and forth does not warrent a fight. If this were more serious then ST00 would dominate.

You're really into this whole "domination' and submission" thing aren't you.? Kinky devil.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com
0&mdash;n

[Ryu]

Ugh let's leave those kinda fetishes out of this.

While I very much agree that a person trained for 10 years in one of those systems (especially BJJ ...booo hiss!! ;) ) can handle himself easily against an "untrained" fighter, I do have to say from mixing it up from strong and tough fighters that just because someone is not trained in a martial art does NOT mean he does not have experience fighting. Fighting experience goes along way, and in my honest opinion, if a 10 year BJJ guy (who only rolls in the dojo) fights an "untrained" fighter who has years and years of real fighting experience (ground included here guys) it might be a surprise for the BJJ man.
I'm not saying he wouldn't win, but if you don't consider "streetfighting" a martial art you could be in for a rude awakening. Just ask any of Tank Abbot's opponents. :) Including Hugo Duarte.

Ryu

http://www.jkdu.co.za/pics/logos/jkduhpma1.gif


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.

[Grahf1]

Jesus, Abel just shut up and get off knife's back already! Your posts are getting $#^%$ annoying.

And please, don't even try to accuse me of being knifefighter.

[jimbob]

Knifefighter-

haven't we danced this dance before? The traditional chinese arts (and the okinawan ones that developed from them)are traditions of civil self defense. That is how they were developed, that is how they have been trained since then with some very basic adjustments. By and large, they were not developed to negotiate an opponent with similar training and or skill in a combative discipline. Yet you want us to compare these arts with arts such as thai boxing, boxing, BJJ etc that have a long history of development in mutual proving rounds. In these systems, the practitioners know they are going to be expected to compete at some stage against someone who has also been training hard. The traditional striking arts did not feature this mentality which is why the traditional training rarely reflects this.

That's not to say a traditionalist couldn't look after himself if need be - he should be more than capabable because that is what he has trained to do.

To answer your question, you speak of a friendly training situation. How is a self defense orientation going to be of any assistance in this environment? Sure - as a kung fu person, you could aim strikes at the throat or joints or whatever, but why would you if the goal is a friendly exchange? Sifu Abel is right - a friendly exchange is not a life threatening situation. Basing your opinion of the efficacy of an art on a situation that has little to do with the existence of the art in the first place is not going to tell you much. The competitively trained martial artists - the BJJ and judo players, the boxers, the ones who do practice friendly and controlled exchanges of their entire curriculum on a regular basis against equally skilled people are going to be better able to accommodate your untrained friend than the traditionalist.

[Grahf1]

My opinion is that if Kung Fu is any good, then after 10 years yes the kung fu practicioner should be able to annihilate the average joe.

[Mr. Nemo]

"Put someone with no training against a boxer, Muay Thai fighter, BJJ’er, Judoka, or wrestler with 10 years training and he will be totally, absolutely, and completely dominated even if the session is just a friendly, easy one."

Gotta be careful making statements like these. This is probably true 90% of the time, but there's that extra fluke 10% when it's not.

That said, it depends on the training. If the kung fu guy does as much "live" training as the boxer/thai boxer/jiu jitsu guy/whatever, then yes, it should be the same way, all other things being equal.

Things that could possibly be not equal are the quality of the instruction, the natural talent and learning ability of the student, and so on.

[Watchman]

jimbob,

If the arts you collectively paint with your broad descriptive brush cannot negotiate a trained opponent then, from a fighting standpoint, what's the point of learning it?

To echo a sentiment Merryprankster stated a long time ago: I want to know what works against other skilled fighters. Anything else is window dressing, and IMAO not worth the time and effort.

It would be next to impossible for someone to complete 10 years of training in any of the above systems and not be able to dominate someone with no experience.

If you can't dominate an untrained person after 10 years under your belt in ANY system, then said system hasn't done you much good as far as fighting is concerned.

My question is this, would you expect the same from a kung fu practitioner, or are the standards different?

Not in my eyes they aren't.

My opinion is that if Kung Fu is any good, then after 10 years yes the kung fu practicioner should be able to annihilate the average joe.

And my opinion is that if kung fu is any good you should be able to negotiate more than just the average Joe Schmidlap Street Thug.

[Black Jack]

There are a LOT of badasses out there who have never had more than a few "meetings" with any strict fighting discipline before.

A lot of it has to do with instinct.

Most of the time they have acquired this instinct through hard-earned experiances.

They know to keep it simple, they are not squeamish, they have learned to be aware, to take advantage of those weapons of opportunity around them, to be freakin nasty and act according.

No one style can teach this attitude.

A lean and strong BJJ player or Thai Boxer may be a badass mofo in a consent based match but the type of people I am talking about do not walk into consent based video game fights unless they have a trick or two up there sleeves, or in their case a Hells Belle's Bowie knife hidden behind a knee or ice pick held in reverse grip for those close quarter stabbing situations.

Oh and lets not forget the aftermentioned stompings and curbies.

Be afraid of beer bellies, be very afraid.

Regards

[Braden]

I didn't read the whole thread. Probably read it later.

But in response to knifefighter's question: Yes, no contest. If someone with 10 years of training can't absolutely dominate someone who is untrained (presuming especially the untrained individual is not an avid streetfighter and of relatively comparable physical aspect), then there is something seriously, SERIOUSLY wrong with their training.

Seriously wrong.

Yes, even if it's a friendly little playfull encounter.

[jimmy23]

knifefighter and grafh1 are correct


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[Braden]

Ok, ok... I'm suckered in, I'll read the thread now.

I'm not sure what prana is talking about. Yes, there is absolutely "other stuff" in the internal martial arts. However, the internal martial arts are still MARTIAL ARTS (truly remarkable ones, imho), and if you haven't attained martial proficiency in them, I highly doubt you've gotten very far in any of their other aspects.

I don't know what Abel is talking about either. I sometimes "play" with my untrained friends and sometimes they win. But I'm not trying to win. I think one of the unspoken conditions of KF's premise is that you are trying to win (within the "rules" of the encounter). In which case, no matter how friendly it is, someone with 10 years shouldn't have any problems at all. Seriously people... 10 years...

Ryu and BlackJack's point is well taken. I agree. There are some great "untrained" streetfighters out there. But I think another unspoken assumption in KF's question was that the untrained guy wasn't one of these.

I couldn't follow jimbob's post. Was he saying yes or no to the question?

[GinSueDog]

Problem with friendly matches is that there friendly. Problem with guys with little contact experience having friendly matches is that they always have the misconception that things would've been different if it wasn't a friendly match. All in all I agree with Watchman and for the most part with Knifefighter. There is always a chance that you'll get your ass handed to you, but some martial arts because of the ingrained way they are trained better your odds and that is all you can hope for.-ED

"Ninjas are not dangerous. They are more afraid of you than you are of them." --The Tick

[Xebsball]

A kf with 10 years of experience should be able to kick the average persons ass, no doubt about it. Unless this average one is a experienced street fighter, a genius, a ******* lucky *******, or he was lieing (did i spell it right?) and actually trains. But that is, if its a fight, nothing friendly. ST vs Ralek seems to be a sparring match.

BTW, ShaolinTiger trains trad kf and san shou too. In recent matches it has been proven that san shou is in the same level as Muay Thai in the rings. So if you say that a MT guy with 10 years of training would kick ass, then you can say the same about San Shou.

-------------------------
"You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation."
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

[Grahf1]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>knifefighter and grafh1 are correct[/quote]

Thanks Tape Lord :D

[AbraxasXIII]

Modern day gung fu practitioners don't come close to the ones from the past who actually had to use their skills consistently to stay alive.

People who put down gung fu ignore almost 2,000 years of real-life testing just because Royce Gracie happened to be successful in a venue which BJJ is pretty much designed for.

"Their logic ties me up and rapes me" - Police

[Buhma]

Ok, I'm probably the reason why the other thread was locked. So I will play nice for those mofos powers that be.

Yes, a 10 year practioner of any art should make that person be able to easily handle an untrained fighter...even to handle a trained fighter.

10 years is a looooong time. If you aren't a badass by then, is it the fault of the martial artist? Maybe.... It may be that there was no actual combat in this kwoon, dojo or studio... just more chi sau, light sparring, one step, two step practicing. Then how can you blame the martial artist? It's the fault of the training-- and maybe the traditional training of Kung Fu is at fault... actually I DO think it's at fault.

Kung Fu has many principles of actual fighting... just like Muy Thai, boxing etc... but where they lost it is the 2000 years of BS mysticism that goes along with it. Thus, CMAs have mostly become ineffective in real life situations.

True, a BJJ practioner who only rolls in the studio may not be totally prepared for an actual combat situation, BUT he/she would be much more prepared than your average Kung Fu joe who does Kung Fu as a hobby.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>People who put down gung fu ignore almost 2,000 years of real-life testing just because Royce Gracie happened to be successful in a venue which BJJ is pretty much designed for.[/quote]

People have used swords for longer than that and it was VERY effective....how come no one goes to war with one anymore?

Hey Abel, I'm NOT knifefighter... I'm much better looking. :D

And for the record, I'm not a BJJ advocate either. Just ask Ginsuedog... I think many BJJ practitioners are actually p*ssies too. At least Kung Fu has the intelligentsia of P*ssies. :D

[This message was edited by KungFoolz on 10-08-01 at 10:39 PM.]

[Nexus]

Hard to say. Maybe in 50 years the kung fu practioner will be able to win. Maybe not.

- Nexus

[AbraxasXIII]

My quote:

People who put down gung fu ignore almost 2,000 years of real-life testing just because Royce Gracie happened to be successful in a venue which BJJ is pretty much designed for.

Knifefighter quote:
People have used swords for longer than that and it was VERY effective....how come no one goes to war with one anymore?


Well, probably because it's against the law to carry them around for one thing.

In a fight between an unarmed MA (KF, MT, BJJ) and someone with a sword my money is on the guy with the sharpened steel.

[Buhma]

*I* said it...not Knifefighter... Geeeez does everyone think I'm him? I told ya I'm the good looking one!!!!!

What do you mean illigal to carry a sword? I said "GO TO WAR WITH A SWORD." I didn't day "Go to the mall carrying one attached to your back."

And in a fight between a guy with a sword and a gun... your money is where?

You've completely missed my point. Just because something was effective for thousands of years doesn't make it so today.

[AbraxasXIII]

Sorry kungfoolz, I just quickly responded and thought it was knifefighter.

I still don't get the logic where you say gung fu isn't effective anymore. It just seems flawed.

One thing I do know is that it's futile to argue about.

[Reima Kostaja]

In my limited experience with kung fu I came to conclusion that the training methods, rather than the techniques were ineffective.

Drills and forms don't prepare you for a live encounter or even full contact sparring.

[tnwingtsun]

>My question is this, would you expect the same from a kung fu practitioner, or are the standards different?<

Yes,we train to fight,some CMAs dance around for health reasons.

>Should a kung fu practitioner with 10 years experience be able to beat someone with no experience<

The kung-fu I've learned,yes(rewind that 10 years way back)

>I know a variety of systems in which there would be no contest.<

So do I,the sun don't rise and set on only Muay Thai,BJJ,Judoka,and wrestling,although you seem(I said seem) to think they are the only ones worth a .

Let me echo Watchman's echo,

>To echo a sentiment Merryprankster stated a long time ago: I want to know what works against other skilled fighters. Anything else is window dressing, and IMAO not worth the time and effort.<

Blackjack made a hell of a point,good to see ya back Blackjack! ;)

[Kaitain(UK)]

there's no if or but's to this - 10 years of training should equip anyone to deal with an untrained assailant - regardless of size.

An experienced street fighter is not an untrained opponent - he's stress tested the 5 techniques he always used and knows they work - plus he'll handle the adrenalin dump better than an untested MA - so that's not the same ballpark as KFs scenario.

I'd say that 10 years of internal training should make it even more of a certainty if you're doing it right. Anyone who doesn't believe 10 years in an art is enough has got some serious problems.

tbh I'd go as far to say that 2 years of hard training should get you to that level - what say you?

So my standards are the same

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[wall]

IF.....your training included techniques (forms, drills) AND sparring (points, full contact) AND physical conditioning (strenght, endurance) AND you trained seriously and consistently for 10 years, in any MA, then you should be able to defend yourself effectively if the need arose, against unskilled and skilled opponents. Even more, you should be able to maintain composure and defuse possible confrontations, thus avoiding them. Because no amount of training makes any confrontation 100% safe, and therefore the moment you fight in a way you have already lost. I had 12 years of training when an unskilled thug knocked me out cold by hitting me in the back of the head whilst I was looking away .....

wall

[Ralek]

Well san shou is not really kung fu. It's american kickboxing with freestyle wrestling.

I have no training. But shaolin tiger had to constantly say "let's take a break" becuase all of his energy was wasted. He punched himself out. It was "friendly" but it was not light contact. We were both bleeding and had a bunch of cuts. I had this rectangular slit in my hand where his tooth went into the area between my two knuckles.

It reminded me of a Dragon Ball cartoon when shaolin tiger spit a bunch of blood out of his mouth. The Dragon ball cartoon where Vegeta kills Verder and Recoom and then spits some blood out of his mouth. It was exactly like that.

I am the Grand Ultimate Fist

[Ralek]

I have about 10years of training in video games. I got my 8 bit nintendo when i was 8 years old. Shaolin tiger has 10 years of kung fu plus he does american kickboxing with freestyle wresting.

So it was 10 years vs. 10 years.

He tried to come in with strikes several times but couldn't get inside past my own punches. I skillfully controlled the distance and wore him out.

I am the Grand Ultimate Fist

[Jockwurst]

Why are you throwing out this obviously rhetorical question? I would assume that you already "know" the answer. 10 years of training is a long time. I mean long time. I would expect a powerlifter with 10 years of training to be able to beat the **** out of someone with no experience. But what do you mean by "no experience"? Do you mean someone who has never fought in their entire life? If you have NEVER been in a confrontation, the likelyhood that you are gona start sh!t with someone is almost nonexistent. The people I know who have NO and I mean NO experience also have NO fighting ability and can be suckered into any move- punch hold or lock without any effort even if it is a poor one. They have no concept of how to defend themselves whatsoever because they've never had to. Oh, I know there are numerous stories of the Mcdojo guys who got the sh!t beat out of them by some backstreet ruffian. But lets be real these were people who have done a lot of fighting in bars and other seedy places. They wernt your average run of the mill accountant, Lawyer, restarant GM who just all of a sudden decided to lay down the smack on a TKD black belt. You question is RETARDED and in my opinion is a complete TROLL. Someone with your self professed skills should spend their time doing something more constructive than trying to incite turmoil on an online forum.

Jock

[jimbob]

I agree with you both (and everyone else on here) that certainly anyone with 10 years training should be able to convincingly outdo someone who hasn't done anything.

My ramble was more concerned with knifefighter's insistence on comparing kung fu to the arts he does. I don't think you can match them up but he seems to want to. The arts mentioned have historically been designed and developed with a view to overcoming a similarly trained opponent. They are competition arts and as such the training in them focusses on that with an outcome that is different to those arts whose backgrounds lie in self defense.

That's not to say that CMA'S are not effective in a competitive format if the training supports that. I've competed in full contact kuoshu style tournaments in Malaysia and Singapore and i did well because I trained hard for them for a long time. But it IS your desired outcome that dictates your training methods - and I've yet to see a kung fu school that aims it's students purely at competition the way a boxing gym, wrestling gym etc does. KnifeFighter wants us to compare the two as if they were the same and i think they are not.

I also think I rambled again. Sorry.

jimbob

[shaolinboxer]

I am approaching the 10 year mark (this winter) and I fell as if my training has just started.

Really, at this point I think the practitioner should have a good sense of self, a skeptical but respectful eye, an awareness of the major branches of all martial arts, and a good technical foundation.

I do not find that I use any style specific technique, but rather my own techniques I developed with my sifus' advice and the help of my many gracious sparring partners. I don't care if I can beat up the average joe, because my sparring experience (and my experience will real conflict) has given me a reasonable sense of confidence and caution.

It is also important to develop your own ideals, self disciplines, boundries and expectations for training.

10 years is a good beginning.

"She ain't got no muscles in her teeth."
- Cat

[Universal Stance]

I agree totally with AbraxasXIII's reply about the 2000 year-old history of the real deal.

In addition, keep in mind that a practitioner of 10 years doesn't mean that they trained consistently for 10 years. I have almost 17 years experience, with no real fighting experience and I know I would get my butt kicked in a lot of cases.

I believe whoever can keep their head the best (i.e, has experience so is calmer and skills more natural) then that person would win, whether 10 yr. trained MA or the "untrained" opponent.

"Any style that can protect you is valuable; keep the 'who's style is better' debate to yourself" - Me

[honorisc]

Since you are using stereo-types relevat to people don't question the effectiveness of Muay Thai, or Brazilian Juijitsu...to see if people really think of Kung-Fu as no good ~ for fighting/ you gave the Kung-Fu person tenyears experience and the other person none as a basis for how badly people think Kung-Fu is for fighting/defense/protection~.

According to the stereo-type of Kung-Fu that I have-ish, the Kung-Fu person with ten years experience wouldn't fight. Much less, fight someone with no experience. At best the Kung-Fu person would protest a fight. And with all-most every aggressive reply (attack~) from the no-experienced person, the no-experienced would get an accidental injury from the stumbling antics of the clumsy-ish Kung-Fu person, refusing to fight~, backing away or trying to get away from the no-experienced person until the no-experienced person was too hurt to continue starting the fight~.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Kung Lek]

yeesh... the modesty of some of you guys is admirable.

IMHO, the reality is this, if you spend 10 years training anything you better be good at it.
If you aren't, then you, as an individual have wasted your time, or you are lying.

It only takes 6-8 years to become a surgeon. What the heck makes anyone think that Kung Fu after 10 years is still not a quantified and qualified practitioner...I have no idea.

Granted, there is always something to be learned.
Knife, yer trolling again :D

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[JWTAYLOR]

Why is this a debate at all?

After a decade you should be able to take on any "inexperienced" person and absolutely dominate them. Sure, every blue moon someone might just happen to get lucky on you, that sh!t can happen. But 99.99% of the time you should be able to completely control them.

So let me see what I'm missing here. Are any of you actually saying that 10 years of consistent training and practice in the art you personally train in is not long enough to totally dominate an encounter with a person with no fighting experience?

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Kaitain(UK)]

if an untrained opponent takes a swing he will not hit you with anything like the power you receive in sparring at your club - think on the pad work you've done as a beginner and with beginners since. How many could really hit hard?

I've trained with some massively muscled guys that look like they could kill me - yet they had no power because they couldn't punch.

An MA who has trained for 10 years should have ingrained, reflex striking techniques - he should also be used to dealing with full power strikes (even simple drills train the brain not to 'turtle' in response to an incoming hit). Even if you lose it and are terrified - you will hit harder than Joe Average.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Universal Stance]

I forgot to mention that there are some systems that are meant to be learned completely in less that 5 years (like some styles of Wing Chun) let alone ten. In systems that immerse you into actual fighting from the start, you should be able to handle an "untrained" opponent reasonably well after about 2-4 years (with diligent practice).

Then again, an "untrained" person with a gun can take out a person with 70+ years experience in less than a second.

I brought this up because the biggest argument about the martial arts here and now, and 200 years ago is its usefulness versus the gun.

"Don't fight it! Beat the crap out of him"

[This message was edited by CheungStyle on 10-09-01 at 07:45 AM.]

[Johnny Hot Shot]

After years of training. I really don't care to fight. except for fun. Fighting way to dangerous and unpredictable.

"Life's a great adventure, mate."
Jacko Jackson

[honorisc]

Lyle, what are the names of female angels? A question was posed, "are there any female angels."

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[shaolinboxer]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean..female angels?

"She ain't got no muscles in her teeth."
- Cat

[Stumblefist]

http://web2.airmail.net/jcpatton/
http://web2.airmail.net/jcpatton/pics.htm
http://web2.airmail.net/jcpatton/hpyangel.jpg

"Lost in a Roman...wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane
All the children are insane
Waiting for the summer rain, yeah...
This is the end, My only friend, the end
It hurts to set you free
But you'll never follow me"

[Kaitain(UK)]

she scares the hell outta me:
http://web2.airmail.net/jcpatton/teach.htm

those are some scary beliefs

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[JasBourne]

Good grief! The one in the teddy with the assault rifle was truly frightening.

I have to agree with those that say that if after 10 years of training I can't hold my own with any untrained opponent, I've wasted those 10 years.

My sifu always says that strength wins. Skill wins over strength. Strength and skill wins over skill alone. Strength, skill, and a smattering of luck carry the day every time.

[This message was edited by JasBourne on 10-09-01 at 09:48 AM.]

[honorisc]

From a profile which I thought was yours there was a mention of angels as an interest. Someone indicated that they had not heard of any female angels. I asked you if you had heard of any female angels~ what were their names?

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Jaguar Wong]

I'm gonna agree with GinSue here. I do feel that a kung fu practitioner with 10 years of training (proper training) would be able to easily handle an untrained attacker, if he's prepared (aware of the situation, etc), whether he cripples/maims, avoids violence, or just subdues the attacker is up to the individual, be they should be equipped to do so after 10 years. The problem with including friendly sparring matches into the mix is that, like GinSue mentioned...they're friendly.

If you're involved in a friendly sparring match, against an untrained opponent, and you stick to a pace that they are comfortable with, then of course you're not going to completely dominate them. Of course if your ego doesn't let you ever get hit by a lesser opponent, then you can treat it like a lesson in humility for your "partner". But then it's not really a friendly exchange anymore. It's just a relaxed game of chest beating, and strutting. I know in a friendly match against someone with less training, I don't just dominate them to show how good I am. I keep the pace at their level, so they can learn something while I'm still using the time to hone more basic techniques and skills.

If you use just any friendly sparring match as a measure of proficeincy, then by that argument, one could assume that the guy who fared better in a light contact continuous "tag" match would be the better fighter. I don't know about you, but I don't quite trust that decision in every case.

Jaguar Wong

[DarkKnight]

If you've just spent the last decade training in a MARTIAL art and you can't easily dominate someone w/ no fighting experience you have wasted your time. If you have been playing pool four times a week for a decade, would you beat someone who never picked up a cue?
If you trained properly, in ten years you should be an expert in your art.

[Monkey]

My experience when I was training hard at Hsing-I under Shyrfu John Price taught me that I could indeed handle inexperienced fighters and also those who trained in other arts. Back in those days I would spar with my school brothers and also with any practicioner of other arts like Karate and different styles of kung-fu. The more different styles I could find to spar with the better. I usually came out on top, though not always. But I always learned from it and was never afraid of being 'beaten' by a better man. That's how you learn.
Back to the question, Yes, after 10 years you should be able to easily handle an untrained opponent.
I also want to add that at 5'6" I was always sparring/fighting with bigger men. Most came away impressed with Hsing-I and a few of those larger than me became my students.

[Knifefighter]

Jockwurst & Kung Lek:

Yes, I am guilty of trolling a bit here. My ultimate point was this-

Most people here pretty much agree that 10 years of kung fu should be more than enough to handle and inexperienced fighter in almost any situation. So, why wasn't everyone on ShaolinTiger's case for not being able to demonstrate his superiority to Ralek? Or why didn't more people pick up on the fact that Ralek may be a good, experienced fighter who is just pretending not to have any training.

[Mojo]

As I've only read what Ralek had written about the fight I chose not to believe it.
I agree with you that Ralek may have some good skills and just loves to screw with people while he is bored at his job.

[Braden]

I pretty much ignore everything on this board concerning Ralek because everything I didn't ignore was a total waste of time. So I never thought about it.

[Kung Lek]

Knife, I'm just not receptive to trolls I guess :D

Is Ralek so special that he needs an alias to present himself? What does that say about Ralek?
Cast your own surmisations there, I have and most others have too.

Not to mention, you get what you give and you give what you get.

I haven't got time to work on the 'riddle of ralek" experienced fighter or not, he is generally behaving badly and in a very snotty way that in it's efforts are purposefully agitating Kung Fu players from Beginner to advanced.

I certainly don't spend my time trolling nhb boards or ufc boards or otherwise.

This may be because one of the great lessons in Kung Fu schools far and wide is "Live and Let Live".
Many styles of Kung Fu are drawn out of deep peacemongering philosophies also.

To be gracious, polite and giving is the mark of a kung fu person. To be submissive and hostile is a failing in context to the practice.

Kung Fu is and has always been about more than the fight, whereas many new "styles" omit many of the very deep and important teachings that are given with martial training. Things like "use only as much force as is necessary", "avoid confrontation", "help those who cannot help themselves", and many more.

These philosophies and principles built into a martial training regimen weed out bullies and hotheads and serve a purpose that tempers the martial artist and bestows personal power on the practitioner.

Anyway, that's the way I see that part of it.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Stumblefist]

http://web2.airmail.net/jcpatton/
http://web2.airmail.net/jcpatton/pics.htm
http://web2.airmail.net/jcpatton/hpyangel.jpg
.....
http://web2.airmail.net/jcpatton/teach.htm
:o :o :o
those are some scary beliefs

Right Kaitan. From the circle of the right-wing conspiracy no less.
Looks like that site deserves it's own "thrasing thread" ...but i don't have time.

"Lost in a Roman...wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane
All the children are insane
Waiting for the summer rain, yeah...
This is the end, My only friend, the end
It hurts to set you free
But you'll never follow me"

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 10-09-01 at 10:09 PM.]

[Mr. Nemo]

"So, why wasn't everyone on ShaolinTiger's case for not being able to demonstrate his superiority to Ralek?"

Well, it was an unsubstantiated story we heard over the internet...

[tnwingtsun]

>The IRS is a rogue agency that needs to be completely overhauled, if not abolished. Our tax system is VOLUNTARY, but you'd never know it, as the IRS has been allowed to terrorize us, confiscate property, or even put us in jail for not paying this VOLUNTARY tax! In order to pay for the essentials (not privileges) the flat tax is about the only fair way.<


I Agree with this statment.

[Shaolin]

I ain't trained in nuthin and I'll kick all your tails. True Dat!

Pain is weakness leaving the body.

[Jockwurst]

If you are defending Ralek then I think I speak for the majority here when I say that in doing so you have lost all the credibility you had. I believe that you have finally shown your true colors knifefighter as I and many othersa on this forum have suspected for a long time.

[Knifefighter]

Jockwurst:
I think Ralek is very funny sometimes. He is a master at getting a rise out of you guys. Sorry if that offends you.