Shaui jiao, Judo or BJJ for KF cross training?

[NYerRoman]

Hey,
I want to cross train a bit. I thought of BJJ or Judo but thought I'd be betraying some sort of kf honor and loyalty to the style because it offers differing techniques that complete the form...
like shaui jiao.

But I would like to know some opinions.

thanks

[Rorny Gracie]

I say BJJ would be the better of the 2 to crosstrain in because if the fight ever went to the ground you would be trained for groundfighting.

[Liokault]

Well i would say that BJJ was a whole art in its own right rather than somthing that should be used to fill in gaps.

Shaui jiao is somthing that would probably have been part of any CMA that you could name....if your art has no grappling then it (probably) has been lost rather than not ever taught.

Judo is great but dull and so....welll....japanese.

[LEGEND]

Whatever u can afford.

[SevenStar]

Do them all.

Seriously. use your current art for your long and mid range figthing. judo and shuai chiao will show you how to work from the clinch and give you ALOT of throwing options. bjj will help if the situation goes to the ground. if you can only pick one, I'd pick bjj, as you may need the ground work one day.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SevenStar
if you can only pick one, I'd pick bjj, as you may need the ground work one day.

He only says that because his Shuai Chia $ucks

[Water Dragon]

I'm playing. In fact, everytime we train together, he manages to miss the mat and chuck me onto the hardwood floor at least once.:(

Ba$tard:D

[TaoBoy]

I'm making the same choice at the moment. Been looking into a Machado BJJ school and a shootfighting school that incorporates BJJ and Muay Thai.

Decisions, decisions...

[SevenStar]

yeah, it's tradition now. My destiny is to make WaterDragon one with the hardwood. :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by TaoBoy
I'm making the same choice at the moment. Been looking into a Machado BJJ school and a shootfighting school that incorporates BJJ and Muay Thai.

Decisions, decisions...

Depends on what you are training and what you are looking for. if you are already training a striking style, the MT may contradict some of what you are already doing.

[mysteri]

if ur trainin for sport, or like UFC, then BJJ and judo are great. judo is very passive but u learn kool stuff. actually, judo is ultimately a softcore derivative of shuai chiao which is designed to hurt someone seriously when they hit the ground. judo teaches to "cooperate" with ur opponent and to have mercy when throwing them down and was bascally created more for sport. i don't know how well shuai chiao teaches to deal w/ multiple opponents, but i would bank on the fact that they'd teach u to stay on ur feet, throw an opponent hard to the ground and be ready for the next, as opposed to rushing, mounting and arm-locking while his friends pound ur head in. jus my 2 cents

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
I'm playing. In fact, everytime we train together, he manages to miss the mat and chuck me onto the hardwood floor at least once.:(

Ba$tard:D

Just look at it as conditioning!

[SevenStar]

Judo throws aren't necessarily soft. there's a difference between ippon seionage on the mat and on the concrete - especially if you don't know how to fall. Judo is also very aggressive. In shuai chiao, however, the idea is to have something on the opponent broken before they hit the ground. SC also throws at some pretty awkward angles.

[SevenStar]

you're in va beach? my first experience in formal martial arts was at chuck norris' school on va beach blvd. when I was about 6. I looked at the website recently - one of my instructors from back then - mr oliver - is still there after all this time.

[Former castleva]

If you wanna stay close to your roots,pick shuai chiao.
They also have striking and kicking,to a point.
I don´t know very much about BJJ but I would pick judo,that is where BJJ comes from.
Very strong throwing and good grappling in general.
It´s good because they don´t just stick into one thing,they do grappling mostly of course,but at least they are rather "complete" at that.
You will be sure to get well developed ground/floorfighting too,all in one pack.
Why should you pick an art for one single area of combat?
Just my opinions though.

[NYerRoman]

Hey Tao,
Shootfighting?

It would be optimal to combine MT and BJJ. But in Rome that would be impossible. They're not too advanced here in that regard.

Hmm. I've seen a BJJ class in London and it just seemed wicked once you're on the mat. Take downs were swift. Made me think.

[Merryprankster]

Former Castlevania--whether or not he'll get good at groudwork in judo depends entirely on what the instructors are like. Some have great groundwork. Some can't take out an average BJJ blue belt on the ground (but just WATCH those blue belt feet fly through the air....)

Mysteri, you can keep your two cents ;) I mean that in a joking manner. Judo is not SC is not BJJ. To suggest they are all simply SC derivatives by your "softcore SC," statement is, quite simply, wrong. First, I've never met a judoka that wasn't interested in trying to take the fight clean out of their opponent with a hard throw, secondly grappling is grappling, and the principles are not unique--Japanese throwing arts and wrestling had little contact prior to the spread of Judo in the early 1900's, and yet, both managed to develop throws with extremely similar looks and feels. The drop seio nage IS a flying mare, a hip toss is a hip toss is a hip toss. Judo isn't necessarily SC derived. There might be some influence--I've never researched it--but it's not outside the realm of possibility that Judo or Japanese throwing arts developed independantly of SC. If you meant it more in the mindset of Judo trying to preserve the opponent, that has to do with training philosophy--In Judo, the idea is to throw as hard as possible in live situations so you can practice real time--it's hard to find training partners if you keep breaking them :)

NYerRoman--I would look towards being a more complete fighter. If you can fight standing in some manner, I would look to learn to fight on the ground (BJJ) for a couple of reasons: First, BJJ will NOT interfere with any stand up skills you have. Secondly, BJJ will allow you to control positioning on the ground, which means that YOU get to dictate the range no matter what!

[Kristoffer]

Play around and see what is most suiteble for ya. I'd say BJJ since my Shuai Chiao mostly focuses on throwing and such. And Judo? :D pffffft.. it's japanese.. :rolleyes:

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by Liokault


Shaui jiao is somthing that would probably have been part of any CMA that you could name....if your art has no grappling then it (probably) has been lost rather than not ever taught.



Shoy Chiao(easier to spell this way) is a martial art that teaches not just throws but also strikes. Saying SC is in every form of KF is like saying there is judo in every form of karate.

[Liokault]

Saying SC is in every form of KF is like saying there is judo in every form of karate.


Well if you look at the origianal meanings of the katas then you will find a lot of grappling stuff.....where do you think it came from? jujitsu? where did judo come from.

Now i know a lot of you will disagree with this but there you go.

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by Liokault



Well if you look at the origianal meanings of the katas then you will find a lot of grappling stuff.....where do you think it came from? jujitsu? where did judo come from.

Now i know a lot of you will disagree with this but there you go.
Karate did not come from jujutsu it is a Ryukyu (Okinawa) derived art coming from Okinawan Te or Torite. Jujutsu is several Japanese arts that can be traced back to the old form of Sumo.

[SevenStar]

Le noobi is right. shuai is part of many CMA, however, there is a difference between the shuai in a cma style and the style of shuai chiao. SC has it's own principles and very unique training methods. It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to throw someone, and there are only so many ways to do it. just because a system has throws, it doesn't mean they do shuai chiao. it means they use shuai. What about the various wrestling systems in korea, greece and various other countries. were they doing judo or shuai chiao? no....they were wrestling.

[GGL]

nice reply 7*

[mysteri]

Originally posted by SevenStar
you're in va beach? my first experience in formal martial arts was at chuck norris' school on va beach blvd. when I was about 6. I looked at the website recently - one of my instructors from back then - mr oliver - is still there after all this time.

7star- now i understand why ur so confused about combat..(shaking head) don't worry, it's not ur fault... ;)

merryprankster- ya know, that was the last 2 cents i had! i'll gladly to take it back to help pay for my KF classes b/c i'm broke! :D actually, i only said that b/c i've always understood the original judo/aikido principals to be very passive to try to inflict the least amount of pain of the oponent. after all, doesnt "judo" mean "gentle way"? anyways, no disrespect to judo, i think its pretty koo, but i like devastaion and i understand the shuai jiao techniques to be more devastaing, which is why i'm partial to it. actually, i'm more partial to the striking arts because i don't let the situations get to the grappling level, but it is good to have a knowledge of it, jus not my strong point. jus my 2 cents..

[NYerRoman]

I'm partial as well since I've done SC a bit (moved and joined another school) but I can't dismiss grappling since you really want to avoid getting on the floor as stated, but it happens...or could.

[Merryprankster]

mysteri, this is where the training philosophy comes into play.

SC has "devestating throws," so I've heard. How do we know this? Do they do this on each other? I'm betting they don't practice full speed, dropping somebody on their head or using a leg intertwining to break the limb as the throw is executed. It's hard to keep training partners. CAN the throws have that effect? Absolutely. But a move isn't yours until you can do it full speed, consistently, on a fully resisting opponent. I'm not knocking SC. I'm interested in it, and one of these days, I'm going to go learn more about it. So you teach "really damaging," techniques at what simply can't be full speed or everybody gets hurt. What they DO practice in full speed sparring, I'm sure they get very good at.

Now, in Judo, you take out some of the potentially more dangerous throws, and you practice them constantly and then you have your sparring and because the throws are "safe" injuries are less likely to occur. So I have less dangerous techniques (theoretically), that I know will work. I want to make clear that for both of these, SC and Judo, I am addressing ONLY the throwing aspect, and the training philosophy. Which one is more suitable for self defense combat is another issue entirely.

Somebody once asked the question "How do you know the SC throws are devestating?" The response from one of the SC guys here was "Do I have to stick a fork in your eye to know it causes damage?" While he's absolutely right, the real question is "Can you stick the fork in the eye of the person who is doing everything they can to keep you from doing it while, at the same time, trying to attack you?"

Do the throws have the potential to be devestating? Absolutely. Can you consistantly practice it full speed? Hmmm... I don't know. Water Dragon once pointed out a seio-nage like throw in SC that uses the focal point as the elbow instead of the shoulder, and if you miss, well, you still have the throw. That's the idea, and I think it's a good one--but I'm willing to bet they don't attack the elbow like that when they spar!

SC guys, feel free to correct me--sometimes arts do specific things to prevent injury that I don't know about.

[SevenStar]

Good post.