snake fist and other dying styles

[Snakey]

I would like to know why styles like snake fist
and zujichuan are dying both styles specially
snake fist were popular in china for almost a century why is it that so many kung fu styles especially animal styles become unpopular and die out.

[Water Dragon]

Quite simply, they are not needed any more in the modern world. Did you know that Western Martial Arts were considered by many to be just as advanced as Chinese arts? Then we invented guns.

I think the survivors will be the arts that are simplistic, effective, and relatively easy to learn. They are more suited to the modern lifestyle.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Hungmei]

Snakey>I would like to know why styles like snake fist and zujichuan are dying both styles specially
snake fist were popular in china for almost a century why is it that so many kung fu styles especially animal styles become unpopular and die out.

I differ with the "not needed in modern society" take on it. To the contrary, we in America are far more violent than at any time in our past and the statistics are routinely "scrubbed" by the powers that be to reflect lower incidents of violence.

The "bad guys got guns" response is IMO a sack of crap. Been there, done that, 5 times in the civilian world alone. I'm still breathing in and out, can't vouched for the fool with a gun group :)

Close quarter pistol skill is highly perishable, e.g., practice a lot or your ability to put round on target rapidly fades. Begs the question “How many thug life weenies ever obtain a semblance of proper weapon usage.” Answer: None

The "real" reason why some arts appear (appearances can be deceiving) to be dying is easily explained by yuan fen which prevails in such matters. Add a little racism coupled with a dose of xenophobia, toss in the cultural gulf, and it's amazing any of the TCMA are still around. John

[tomcat]

Snake fist is alive and well in other animal systems such as Hung-Gar,Shaolin etc. Possibly the reason such systems aren't as popular as a sole system is a lack of well rondedness on its own. the snake we do is mainly soft tissue and pressure point strikes,wrapping techniqes ,sweeps and some chokes .It can be very devastating Kung-fu but even better rounded when mixed with tiger.

tomcat

[Shaolin Master]

Snake is not dying, it just may not be readily available to you :-)

Some purely Snake styles

Emei Snake Style
Chen Family Snake
Zhang Xiao Yan Snake
Fujian Snake
Guangdong Du She Snake

Then some substyles of snake
Hakka Snake
Wushu Snake
Hung Kuen Snake
Hay say fu type snake
5 animals style snake


of couse there maybe others but those are the purest or most common. Also the spirit and form of snake is found in many arts from taiji to hung gar.

[fiercest tiger]

trouser snake from the ykm system long and powerful!

one eye snake from pak mei is another

most styles that use 5 animals have snake techniques or forms etc. i would love to see a pure snake style in action, not wushu snake!

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

BM, YKM etc.....are classified as Hakka (so any of those are under the Hakka banner) just for generalisation sake. Because if we talk about forms then we go into very long lists which is unecessary.

Wushu Snake was based on Emei Snake, so they do have similaities (Less the artistic and beautifying qualities).

Fujian snake is less beautiful than Emei snake but highly applicable with complex hand positions and smaller coiling ratios.

Anyways, how r u , keeping well, clinic open and ready :-)

[fiercest tiger]

Clinic isnt opened as yet but very soon, teaching courses and its taking much of my time up etc, but i still heal with dit dar and i have a massage clinic at home for students and clients if they they need a treatment.

there is a snake style in a kung fu mag video for sale in espy t.v i dont know what style if its omei, shaolin but i would like to see a real snake style. do you know a complete snake style or just know a form or 2 from here and there?

cya

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

I know nothing :-)

[Water Dragon]

Close quarter pistol skill is highly perishable, e.g., practice a lot or your ability to put round on target rapidly fades. Begs the question “How many thug life weenies ever obtain a semblance of proper weapon usage.” Answer: None

True enough statement but A Close quarter pistol skill is highly perishable, e.g., practice a lot or your ability to put round on target rapidly fades.

Has nothing to do with B Begs the question “How many thug life weenies ever obtain a semblance of proper weapon usage.” Answer: None

Street thugs do not typically engage in Old Western style shoot outs. It's much more of Crime of Opportunity/Assasination type attempt.

As far as guns in general, I would still say that they contribute to the dying out of martial skills. The main reason for the development of martial arts was protection of the home/village. Most people now interested in home protection will buy a gun. Just my a$, er opinion.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Hungmei]

>Close quarter pistol skill is highly perishable, e.g., . . . “How many thug life weenies ever obtain a semblance of proper weapon usage.” Answer: None

>True enough statement but A Close quarter pistol skill is highly perishable, e.g., practice a lot or your ability to put round on target rapidly fades.

>Has nothing to do with B Begs the question “How many thug life weenies ever obtain a semblance of proper weapon usage.” Answer: None

Nope, you're wrong. The ability to put a round on a hostile, mobile target, in less than perfect lighting, with multiple background distractions, while juiced to the gills on adrenaline, is very difficult to do. Get a BB Pistol, some good quality eye protection, a couple of friends and go for it. Not the way I learned but a hell of a lot safer.

>Street thugs do not typically engage in Old Western style shoot outs. It's much more of Crime of Opportunity/Assassination type attempt.

Nope. Assassination or "sentinel neutralization" or "close quarters kill" or “terminating a target with extreme prejudice” are all highly refined military specialties. Nope on the crime of opportunity as well, "heat of the moment" and something went wrong is the more common setting.

>As far as guns in general, I would still say that they contribute to the dying out of martial skills.

Care to explain why I spent so much time training in unarmed combat while a member of ODA 735, A Co., 1st Bn., SFG(A)? Care to explain why the US Marine Corps has a “full bird” Colonel sitting in charge of unarmed combat? All branches of the US Armed Forces have unarmed combat regimens. The emphasis becomes even more pronounced when you get to the SpecOps side of the house and we had all the “high tech toys” you could imagine.

>The main reason for the development of martial arts was protection of the home/village. Most people now interested in home protection will buy a gun.

Perhaps true, the problem is that an unskilled, untrained person is more a threat to those around him than the "bad guys." Sat and watched 2 guys standing on either side of a car fire off no less than a dozen rounds at each other. Shot out store windows, a parking meter, other cars . . . When the shooting was done they walked away in opposite directions cussing at each other :)

>Just my a$, er opinion.

All very valid, I just happen to disagree, and that's what forums are all about :) John

[Water Dragon]

Nope, you're wrong. The ability to put a round on a hostile, mobile target, in less than perfect lighting, with multiple background distractions, while juiced to the gills on adrenaline, is very difficult to do. Get a BB Pistol, some good quality eye protection, a couple of friends and go for it. Not the way I learned but a hell of a lot safer.

Yes, if you end up in a fire fight. In the street, most shootings occur under circumstances where one individual is armed and the other unarmed. More on this below. As a side note, to add even more fun to your bb gun wars, get some of those big bottle rockets and an empty pipe. Instant bazooka. :D

Nope. Assassination or "sentinel neutralization" or "close quarters kill" or “terminating a target with extreme prejudice” are all highly refined military specialties. Nope on the crime of opportunity as well, "heat of the moment" and something went wrong is the more common setting.

First, one thing I wont get into is a battle of semantics. If I say "I have a gun", and you say "Nope, you have a pistol", that really doesn't change the fact that if I pull the trigger the thing will go BANG and put a hole in you. The term used is actually SOS, not assasination but chances are, no one here knows what SOS means.

What I've seen and heard of generally goes like this: Two people have some sort of an ongoing problem. Chances are one got beat down pretty bad by the other recently. Now, the person gets a bug up his a$$ and goes around looking for the other guy or happens to run into him and decides to kill him. Hence, what I term a "crime of opportunity/assasination attempt". Essentially, the person becomes a "Mark"

Heated arguments can bring weapons out, but more often than not, only one guy has one.

"Care to explain why I spent so much time training in unarmed combat while a member of ODA 735, A Co., 1st Bn., SFG(A)? Care to explain why the US Marine Corps has a “full bird” Colonel sitting in charge of unarmed combat? All branches of the US Armed Forces have unarmed combat regimens. The emphasis becomes even more pronounced when you get to the SpecOps side of the house and we had all the “high tech toys” you could imagine."

Nope, my military experience consists of my Dad's Vietnam stories and playing "Army Men" on Playstation. :D Basically, I wont comment on something I don't know much about. What I will say is there's a huge difference in military vs. civilian thought process and military people are probably more apt to see the value in learning some form of unarmed combat.

Perhaps true, the problem is that an unskilled, untrained person is more a threat to those around him than the "bad guys." Sat and watched 2 guys standing on either side of a car fire off no less than a dozen rounds at each other. Shot out store windows, a parking meter, other cars . . . When the shooting was done they walked away in opposite directions cussing at each other

No argument here

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Hungmei]

The ability to put a round on a hostile, mobile target, in less than perfect lighting, with multiple background distractions, . . .

>Yes, if you end up in a fire fight. In the street, most shootings occur under circumstances where one individual is armed and the other unarmed.

And since most law abiding citizens don't routinely carry a gun . . . all the more reason why MA training should be the "rage" not on the decline.

>As a side note, to add even more fun to your bb gun wars, get some of those big bottle rockets and an empty pipe. Instant bazooka.

The BB Gun drill is something I have my students do a few times. Tried "Paint Ball" guns but they were too large, awkward, etc.

Assassination or . . .

>First, one thing I wont get into is a battle of semantics.

Fair enough.

>If I say "I have a gun", and you say "Nope, you have a pistol", that really doesn't change the fact that if I pull the trigger the thing will go BANG and put a hole in you.

Not necessarily true. Having been there, done that in the civilian world on 5 separate occasions 3 of those times the "gun" went “bang” and I engaged unscathed.

>The term used is actually SOS, not assasination but chances are, no one here knows what SOS means.

Generic, but let's go with your prohibition on semantic based crap.

. . . "heat of the moment" and something went wrong is the more common setting.

>What I've seen and heard of generally goes like this: . . . Essentially, the person becomes a "Mark"

Understood, I base my opinion on current FBI Homicide stats.

>Heated arguments can bring weapons out, but more often than not, only one guy has one.

Given your position is correct we're right back to the real need, here and now, for solid MA skills.

Care to explain why I spent so much time . . . All branches of the US Armed Forces have unarmed combat regimens. . .

>Nope, my military experience consists of my Dad's Vietnam stories and playing "Army Men" on Playstation.

You're a smart man Water Dragon, many nights I wish I would have had your sense.

>Basically, I wont comment on something I don't know much about.

****!!! You're an endangered species on Internet Forums :)

>What I will say is there's a huge difference in military vs. civilian thought process and military people are probably more apt to see the value in learning some form of unarmed combat.

Good point. Now who do you suppose Joe Snuffy civilian should look to for a model of how to deal with living in a "hostile fire" zone? :)

. . . the problem is that an unskilled, untrained person is more a threat to those around him than the "bad guys."

>No argument here

You would've had to be there to fully appreciate it. Heads down, reaching up and over the car to blindly fire off a couple of rounds, then hunker down while the other idiot had his turn :) John

[LiLong]

I myself am learning a style that is probably in its last grandmaster. My style is a family system called Li Long Bai Mei that is passed to only a few accepted students. not that we discriminate against some, it is only that the commitmment to master a traditional southern system is not present in many aspiring martial arts who would prefer to have a two-year black belt contract. I chose not to wait two years and just purchased a belt to hold my pants up ;) . Seriously however, snake style and others are exotic and very physically demanding and may take years to master. no single art is better than the next, but my guess is not all of them will be passed on. What we can so as martial artists is instead of cross-training in a million different styles, we should research exotic styles that are interesting and fit one's personal philosophy and do our ****est to learn that style. :)

[whippinghand]

How do you know that it is dying? Because Billy Blanks didn't make a Snake-Bo video. Lose the "mainstream" attitude.

[LiLong]

because a fellow martial artist has noticed a decline in inerest on certain styles does not mean that he/she is mainstream. If they are there is also no harm done because it is due to the mainstream reach of bruce Lee, Ed parker (place here your martial arts inspiration) and others that martial arts are driven forth. Certainly people should be aware of things such as the small following Chuka Shaolin has in Malaysia or hidden arts passed down to masters like Adam Hsu among others. again, my own system lacks the large following tae kwon do schools around the area have. Is that bad? not as long as one person carries the art forth. Not many ppl I know are aware of Duck Fist and other styles kept by old masters until they find one worthy to pass it on. because we no longer have the need to protect our villages against invaders from the north and the advent of firearms secret/family systems get lost in time. Research, research,research, travel and study, making ourselves worthy of such knowledge can prevent styles from being lost in time. martial artists should unite with the common goal of promoting every style and not just the one we practice. It is not about the past now as much as it is about the future. :)

[PlasticSquirrel]

in china, people train in all sorts of rare styles still. we don't hear about them as much as we do about wushu, but they are definitely out there, and great in number. usually found more in rural/undeveloped areas, or small villages, though. also, the shaolin temple still teaches many, many animal and rare styles. many of which i'd never heard of before

from what i know, people in china usually regard a style like drunken as being not good for fighting. a similar view is probably put on some animals (snake, duck, scorpion, dragon, etc.).

[dooder]

We lost a great deal of knowledge when the communists killed of so many of the old masters in china. We are still losing kung fu stiles along with species, languages, cultures etc. do to consumerism and cultural ****ginization.

[DarkKnight]

Hmmm....very interesting. Are there any web sites
dedicated to snake style?