What is a 'fighting' BGZ class like?

[MonkeySlap Too]

How does your BGZ school train you for fighting?

[count]

Methods are varied. Presumably we have already trained techniques for timing and power. Fight training is different. Definitely lot's of stepping/kicking drills. Lot's of sparring. Training to break through your opponents shield is key. We do this against an opponent trying to knock you around with a kicking bag for a shield. We train rounds and against fresh opponents. Sometimes we have a kind of a gauntlet where five guys come at you. You are supposed to use specific things against them depending on what they are throwing. One has elbow pads to hit on, one uses the shield, one will try and grapple you, one has a kicking bag, and one is swinging a bamboo sword as if it were a kick. You run the gauntlet for timed rounds. You fight from the center and everyone can attack at once or a couple at a time. These are a few of our methods which I think are fun. We have tons more. But you'll see when you come around. :)

[Water Dragon]

All quiet on the Western Front, eh?

[count]

Hey, I'd sure be interested in some of the methods other Bagua schools are training. I've heard alot of folks talking about their fighting ability lately, surely there must be some great training methods from your schools to share. You don't have to give all your secrets, just a few drills would be nice. Tree training anyone? In the dark, pushing, drills, drills drills...??? Maybe BT is right and ya'all are just doing forms and circle walking and calling it a day. :p

[Water Dragon]

I started learning a Bagua Qi Gong set once. It was supposed to be done after eating. I never finished it though as I can't make my body go in all those directions at the same time. :(

[Waidan]

I only train with my instructor, so we obviously cannot do much in the way of multiple-opponent scenarios :).

In addition to specific technique drills (normally adopted straight from sections of our hand forms), we do a great deal of sticking hands excercises and free fighting. The free fighting is pretty rough and tumble, with medium striking, kicks, and aggressive grappling and throws. (I say "aggressive" because this is where a good 90% of my injuries seem to stem from, lol).

We also do a lot of power training with full power striking exercises (using phone books for pads) and of course heaps of circle walking and forms.

I remember thinking bagua training would likely be soft and mellow compared to my old style, but I'm finding the opposite to be true. Many times I've walked home from class thinking, "man, I just got my a$$ kicked."

[LapisCircle]

I think too much gets made out of how to train for comabt. Seems to me to be rather simple. Fighting in its nature is pretty simple (I didn't say easy), But for people who have been there, there isn't a lot of thinking involved, now there maybe cleverness, but the "talking" mind general shuts up and deals with the task at hand.

In the methods I learn we do very careful and well thought out forms, trying to gain as well natural body alignments and relaxed mind set as possible making sure we get enough power in the turns and its clean and flows. There is iron palm and body, both internal and outter work for the iron Body training and then there is full on contact "free" fighting practice, to me is it seems to work, anybody agree..disagree?

[dedalus]

I certainly agree with that first paragraph. If you're not in the zone, you're in trouble, and if you are in the zone then your thinking mind is often no more than a bystander.

I suppose our fighting training is mainly a matter of sticky-hands-type sparring and free sparring. Its quite surprising what techniques spontaneously manifest themselves in that context, which leads me to place a lot of faith in the proposal that the attention internal arts pay to training body mechanics is well worth the effort.

In my own experience this far more effective than the scenario-based training that passes for self-defence in many schools. Besides actually fighting, I think it is the *unstructured* partner work that is of the greatest benefit for real combat skills.

[HuangKaiVun]

I'm not the "typical" ba gua man, but I'll post what I've been working on with my student.

I believe that the foundation to ba gua fighting is a good grasp of Single and Double Palm Changes. This is because I have a tendency to "freeze frame" the transitions of the movements and turn them into fighting moves. In this way, I've come up with things like Hsing Yi's "Heng Chuan" and other moves. These I'll adapt to line drills for repetitive purposes against targets, pads, live opponents (e.g. me) etc . . .

Developing a solid command of single and double palm changes takes a long time. I walk the ba gua circle forwards, backwards, in a straight line, and with reversed hands (e.g. high hand on the outside in the Single Palm Change posture). I'll spiral in and out of the Single and Double Palm changes at will, changing my postures while retaining that ba gua flavor.

I'll also do the "rou shou" two man circle training in which two ba gua practitioners face off and go into improvised moves. We start in the traditional circle posture, but then we degenerate into linear and even groundfighting. We makes up moves off the Single and Double Palm changes as we go along.

So ultimately, my student and I combine the circular twisting with the linear striking to free-form improvise our way through combat scenarios.

[count]

Originally posted by LapisCircle
I think too much gets made out of how to train for comabt. Seems to me to be rather simple. Fighting in its nature is pretty simple (I didn't say easy), But for people who have been there, there isn't a lot of thinking involved, now there maybe cleverness, but the "talking" mind general shuts up and deals with the task at hand.

agree..disagree?

Disagree! Fighting is pretty simple by nature. Anyone can kick and punch. But fighting with bagua, goes against your natural instincts, most of the time, and needs to be trained accordingly. since bagua is somewhat unique, there are some pretty unique training methods. For example, footwork is key in fighting with bagua. So footwork is included in bagua push hands. Some of the other methods I mentioned above, I think are unique. I think methods are what differentiate schools and styles of bagua. I'd like to hear about training other than just saying "free fighting".

LapisCircle,
Welcome to the forums here. I'm curious??? Your profile says your style is bagua and you have been training for 14 years. I wish I had started learning bagua when I was 10 years old. How in the world could you be so discipline at that age. When I was that age, all I thought about was baseball and candy. Most kids that age I know are doing TKD. Did you really start learning bagua than?

[dedalus]

Disagree! Fighting is pretty simple by nature. Anyone can kick and punch. But fighting with bagua, goes against your natural instincts, most of the time, and needs to be trained accordingly.

I can see what you're getting at here Count, but I think what you've done here is to draw a distinction between fighting per se, and training methods for fighting. Bagua definitely has some intricate and counter-intuitive training methods, but one would hope that the outcome of training these methods intensively is the ability to react *without* thinking in a fight (all that wu wei/no-mind type stuff).

Besides all of the mechanics learnt in forms, some interesting methods we use include the 2-person circle sparring (although I would again say that this is more about body mechanics than fighting techniques), dynamic 2-man drills with set sequences of handwork/footwork, wooden dummy work (so that you get some feeling for range and the correct structure of strikes learnt in form) and pole sparring. These are the major methods we regularly train in addition to free fighting, and in addition to the many training methods of other neija arts.

[LapisCircle]

Count, you've made the mistake near everyone else makes. Bagua is not unquie, its how the body moves naturaly, I was lucky enough to begin learning some of it long before I had my teenage years to mess up my natural movement and have to re-learn how to move naturaly at late 20s and 30s like the rest of you.

Fighting is not complicated, in fact its very simple, the need to survive is as old as time and exists in all things, just because Baguazhang is used doesn't take that simple need away, you learn to be clever and quick, but the simple nature of it all doesn't leave, you personaly put up walls and make it difficult..and thats on you. I think its unfair for anyone to place individual limitations as general ristrictions.

My history is a bit unquie. I followed a girl home one day after I saw her whip out the 2 hard and as I learned sharp hair pins and cause puncture wounds in the group of girls jumping her, there was a lot of blood, the school janitor had to mop several times and pour bleach to try and get the stains out. Being a chubby kid and socialy akward at the time I wasn't exactly immune to get picked on and beat up, so your **** right I wanted to learn to do what she did.

This really isn't about who does what and who is better. Bagua serves us all in some way, or we wouldn't be practicing it. Some of us just might put the practice into actual use, some just because its a **** cool system to learn and practice, doesn't really matter to me. I can only speak from what I know, I've worked private security for a good portion of my over 18 life and bagua seems to flow and work better then anything I'come into contact with.

My first teacher stressed the Wuji mind set, he said all things are born of it, they crawl out of the black, they die and return to the black. He was a man with a strange obession of the void/wuji idea, and he was right letting your mind become re action to action, and action to reaction is a profound experience, you find your self simply doing bagua, simply in combat, simply being, other then that I don't know how to say it. simply is simple.

[count]

Originally posted by dedalus


I can see what you're getting at here Count, but I think what you've done here is to draw a distinction between fighting per se, and training methods for fighting.

I thought that particular distinction was drawn by the original question.:D

I agree with some excellent points here. Especially about having to re-learn issues of posture, alignment and breathing which are natural as a child. And about getting past stopping points the mind puts in place both physically and ethically after adulthood. Not to mention limitations of an aging body. :( That's why I am extremely envious of LapisCircle's advantage of learning bagua from childhood. But I still think certain aspects of bagua go against the natural instincts to get the best results. It is natural to stop something coming at you by putting the closest hand in front of you rather than using a hidden hand or back hand to dissolve and attack so we drill these things over and over until it becomes more than second nature and becomes first nature. So drills are important as a training method.

Pole training is a major part of our system and I think a most valuable training for fighting. Tell me more about your pole stuff. What kind of gear do you use for sparring? Have you had luck finding good poles? What materials, lengths etc.? How does it translate for you to open hand fighting? Body mechanics, drills, 2 man, more, more, tell me more.:)

LapisCircle,
I recently learned alot about Idaho I did not know or even imagine before. Is it as beautiful a state as it looks to be from this documentery I saw? Is it hard to find good teachers there?

[HuangKaiVun]

When my nearest hand is the blocking hand, that's the hand I'll use.

At least that's what I do when I spar using Baguazhang.

Baguazhang allows one to fight well with either lead hand. That's why one does Single and Double Palm "Changes".

I don't see why in Baguazhang a person needs to fight the instinct to use one hand more than the other, even in a drill.

[LapisCircle]

Idaho is a beautiful place, but that beauty very much depends on where you go. Boise has its places that are indeed wonderful. I think I could get away with comparing Boise park's to San Fransico parks, yes the are that nice.
The further North you go the more pristine Idahyo becomes. I'm originaly from southern California, and thats where I began learning Bagua.
Just outside of Boise there is a stretch of road called Chinden which first meant China Garden, in the late 1800s and early 1900s it was a pretty busy little china town, the railroad had ended ad the chinese settled here. Thanks to the anti-chinese, this road was shortend to Chinden and became garden city and is now the absolute ugliest and most reviled city in Ada and surrounding idaho counties.
There are some chinese left, and from my understanding a family that has kept a Xingyi tradition, but they are strictly closed door and arn't very open about what they know.
Other then that Boise is NOT a place to look for good Kung Fu, and has all I can really say, We do have a very skilled Yang Taijiquan man, but he understanding for the martial side is extermely limited and he isn't interested in developing it anyway.
Thats about it.

[dedalus]

Count,

I'll have to be brief because I need to head out to work in a few minutes.

We mainly have pole sensitivity drills that are based on the pole form we practice. One drill is to follow crossed poles clockwise and counterclockwise until one of us gains control and accelerates the opponents pole beyond his control. One is then free to follow up with a poke to the throat/chest/forehead etc (a polite training partner shows some restraint at this point :p ). The difficulty lies both in maintaining contact through the direction changes, and not being overwhelmed by your opponent's jing. I guess you could call this "sticky pole" :p

We also have drills based on short sequences in the form to practise applications (generally someone will have to play the attacker for a few strikes before roles are reversed). There's a nice "black bear" method like this.

In general we don't go into pads and armour, in part because we train in a public space and in part because they don't do so much to protect againt injury. Nevertheless, some restrained sparring between good students who are interested in refining technique can be fun... I think its better than trading your most lethal attacks for the sweeps and pushes that armour is better at protecting you from.

I've seen some bagua pole sparring (and one-person training exercises) done around the circle, but I'm unfamiliar with these methods. I would be interested to have a look at a video on such methods if one were to become available. How about your own pole training?

[count]

We do the sticky pole stuff too. Good for developing chan su jin and listening energy. In fact the pole on the whole is great for developing whole body power. We use two types of poles. One heavy iron wood pole for training and the white waxwood pole for sparring. Our poles are at least 10 to 11 feet long and taper at the end just like spear. Kendo gear makes for some descent armour. At least kempo gloves to cover the hands as they take the bulk of the damage.:eek: We do alot of thrusting and cover and counter drills which really develop power off the back hand. Alot of it is about how your body moves with the pole in hand. Backhand tight with the pole across the dan tien. Rolling full circles for complete power. Hands moving together. Changing. Man I love that stuff. :D

LapisCircle,
Idaho sounds like Gods country to me. Except for the teacher part. I imagine some land could be obtained through the government if you had a good plan. Thanks for the input. :)

Huang,

Baguazhang allows one to fight well with either lead hand. That's why one does Single and Double Palm "Changes".

I don't see why in Baguazhang a person needs to fight the instinct to use one hand more than the other, even in a drill.

I'm not sure we have the same understanding of single palm change. Maybe if you explain what you think it is and how you train it, I could follow your example?:confused: Of course bagua teaches you to use either hand equally in a fight, but isn't that the point of the discussion. How do you train for fighting? Most people aren't born using either hand equally. I know your background in music gives you an edge but come on man, share something about bagua training here.

[HuangKaiVun]

count, look at my first post on this thread to see how I train the Single and Double Palm Changes.

You'll see that not only do I walk the circle, but I do line drills and rou shou as well.

I train my Single and Double Palm changes so that when an opening or opportunity presents itself, I can move on it without consciously thinking about it.

When I spar people, it's really not possible for an onlooker to tell if I'm doing a Single or Double Palm change. That's because when I hit a guy with a mid-section body punch, that's actually a transitional movement from the Double Palm Change. Or when I'm grappling and wrap my arm around his neck to break it, it's Single Palm Change.

I don't use both hands equally. However, I can fight going either left or right - or standing up - or on the ground. Baguazhang's principles are adaptable to any situation.

And under no circumstances do I favor the unnatural sophisticated solution over the natural simple one. That's because opponents FIGHT BACK. By the time one goes into his unnatural solution, the opponent is beating up the practitioner.

Ultimately, baguazhang isn't in the drilling or theory. It's in the spontaneous application.

[count]

I think you misunderstood where I was coming from. I liked alot of your training methods, many of which are not uncommon in our school and are uncommon in others. Backwards circlewalking and line drills and such are the way to go. Bagua push hands is a method of training I was talking about. Where I was confused is the idea of "freeze framing" anything in bagua which is afterall, continious and needs to be trained as such. You also said,

I train my Single and Double Palm changes so that when an opening or opportunity presents itself, I can move on it without consciously thinking about it.
That was somewhat my point. If it were completely natural it would be something you would not need to train at all. Blocking with the lead hand is no palm change at all. To change your intent and disolve something with the changing palm while striking with the other takes practice and training. But this or any application is not why I originally commented that bagua is unique. It is the training and it's approach to the ultimate goal of taking it with you until you are a very old man that make bagua different. And yes, I know that is the main focus of all "internal martial arts". It's the methods that make it unique. Methods which vary from school to school and are interesting to hear about.

[HuangKaiVun]

Good questions, count.

As far as my "freeze frame" bagua goes, here's what I've posted thus far:


In my 1st post on this thread, I describe how I adapt the Double Palm Change to Hsing Yi's "Heng" fist. I use that initial backhand blocking movement to hook the opponent in and then use the other hand to punch him.

In my 2nd post here, my 1st sentence displays my most basic usage of the Single Palm Change as a lead hand blocking technique.

In my 3rd post, I describe Hsing Yi's "Pao Quan", which is a body blow without the hook of the "Heng" fist. I also describe a headlock-type neck break in the Single Palm Change.


Basically, my bagua features variations off the Single and Double Palm Change possibilities.

[Nick Lo]

count

Huang's bagua's GOTTA be freeze frame as it was learned from books, and frequently paused videos.

[HuangKaiVun]

And rou shou.

Rou shou - you against me, Nick Lo.

Teach me a lesson.