hook punch & elbows

[TjD]

while the hook isnt technically in my branch of wing chun, its a rule i like to break on occasion :) vs larger opponents who come on top of me and just take up so much of the centreline with their massive arms :) sometimes its the best way i can get around to hit them

what i've noticed for getting maximum power out of my hook, is that a lot of energy and snap can come from the rotating of the shoulder and forearm inward; and the body mechanics of this twist are extremely similar to horizontal and vertical elbows. in fact, i feel very little difference between a horizontal elbow and a hook punch (except for the part thats hitting).

the other thing i use to squeeze a little more power into my hook is a biu like wrist motion, by pulling the of my fist inward (thumb side), i gain even more momentum and snap upon impact.

i still hit with the pinky knuckle in my hook, but usually the inside of my forearm is facing outward (ie if i look at my hand, im looking at the back of my hand, not the palm)

do any other styles or anyone else use the hook? and if they do, do they apply the rotation of the shoulder/forearm, and utilize the wrist for extra power?

[Merryprankster]

what i've noticed for getting maximum power out of my hook, is that a lot of energy and snap can come from the rotating of the shoulder and forearm inward; and the body mechanics of this twist are extremely similar to horizontal and vertical elbows. in fact, i feel very little difference between a horizontal elbow and a hook punch (except for the part thats hitting).

Assuming you throw elbows properly-yup.


the other thing i use to squeeze a little more power into my hook is a biu like wrist motion, by pulling the of my fist inward (thumb side), i gain even more momentum and snap upon impact.

Yup--but watch out--don't over exaggerate this or you'll miss (Guilty here!)


i still hit with the pinky knuckle in my hook, but usually the inside of my forearm is facing outward (ie if i look at my hand, im looking at the back of my hand, not the palm)

You'll have to ask somebody more familiar with WC alignment theory if this is a good idea. I think it's horrible. In my understanding, when you turn your palm over, structural alignment changes to make the first two knuckles in line with your forearm bones. If I tried to do what you are describing with my hook, I'd break my hand or hurt my wrist.



do any other styles or anyone else use the hook? and if they do, do they apply the rotation of the shoulder/forearm, and utilize the wrist for extra power?

Yeah, boxers. Caveat--I box, so I am looking at what you say from a western boxing standpoint. My strongest right hook comes from that rotation of the shoulder, forearm, and use of the wrist, subtlely, to snap it in there. We won't talk about my left, since it just sucks. :)

Anyway, the fact we're speaking the same language about body mechanics reinforces my personal notion that people do more things the same from style to style, than they do differently.

[TjD]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

You'll have to ask somebody more familiar with WC alignment theory if this is a good idea. I think it's horrible. In my understanding, when you turn your palm over, structural alignment changes to make the first two knuckles in line with your forearm bones. If I tried to do what you are describing with my hook, I'd break my hand or hurt my wrist.


well not that im a pu$$y but i think that if i threw full power hook, and didnt hit a nice soft spot on the head (temple, or jaw) i'd probably break my hand either way :) what it comes down to for me at least, is that i think i could get either to line up just as well, but punching with the pinky knuckle is what im more used to so i'd have less chance of hurting myself, and my pinky knuckle is quite a bit more conditioned (because its what i use)



Anyway, the fact we're speaking the same language about body mechanics reinforces my personal notion that people do more things the same from style to style, than they do differently. [/B]

nods that is interesting :) while i dont think the hook is real traditional wing chun, its a good example of how you can break the rules.
its interesting that with the way wing chun works you can break the rules and come up with something similar or the same to boxing... says a lot for how WC can teach you how to use your body :D

it probably goes to show there are only so many "best" ways you can generate power with your body. i think generating power with the upperbody correctly is more the same between the different fighting arts out there, than how they get power from the legs to be issued out the arms as well

even between the different wing chun styles, it seems theres a bunch of different ways to get the power from the legs to the fists. my style uses a rearweighted stance, and pulling the legs together to get an additional twisting snap added to the punch. the 50/50 styles seem to do it a bit differently as well as some of the other rearweighted styles.. and thats only wing chun!

how does a boxer use his legs to get more power into his hook?

[yuanfen]

!. Western boxing and wing chun both have "hooks"-
the motion is not made up in wc- the path is there int the biu jee form.
2. Both use it for close quarters work and dont usually "lead" with it from far.
3. But the delivery is different in wc and boxing and so is the chain of power.
4. Boxing is more top heavy and ergo loads the shoulder.
Wing chun hasa more minimalist approach to the role of the shoulder.
5. I am shocked that tjd uses the pinky for focus... making of the classic fracture.

Enough- off to fix breakfast for the tribe before work.

yuanfen-joy

[Merryprankster]

Yuan--good point, I never lead with a hook unless I'm slipping inside. It's more of a counterpunch thing.

Loading the shoulder...hmmm... I don't really see it that way. I do load my weight to my right side somewhat (step right, throw right), but even without that, I can throw a decent hook--it's the difference between something that hurts and something that can knock out out (shrug). I try never to "use my shoulder," to punch--you just punch yourself out that way...

[quote]But the delivery is different in wc and boxing and so is the chain of power.[\quote]
If you say so :D Totally different argument, and one we'll basically go round about, rather than coming to a resolution. You have your experiences in the MA's and I have mine and they say something slightly different about this issue, as I recall ;)
TJD--to get more power out of the hook--well, it varies from person to person, to be honest. Some people never learn properly--you can give them all the mechanics in the world and it'll LOOK good and never have an effect. Like my left hook. It LOOKS fine. There's nothing "wrong," with it, but it's just pattycakes when (if) it lands. I use it more to cover movement to my left than to actually have an effect. Generally speaking, however, get in stance, then, with the legs, you pivot on the rear leg in the direction of the hook. This helps drive the hips round (which are going round anyway), torso, and the arm/fist unit comes with it like a sledgehammer. I listen for a particular sound on the mitts or a specific type of thud on the heavy bag to know I did it right, the bag stays put and folds. Basically, you're punching with your body, just like ANY good punch from any style (specifics vary, I know). There are a bunch of different variations but that's the basic idea. It feels JUST like throwing a discus or shot to be honest.

[yuanfen]

good discussion from different perspectives. In western boxing there is swivel of the back foot...works aginst other less skillful boxers....but in boxing takedowns are not allowed in sport. That habit can result in being put down on the floor by good grappling types of your hook fails.. In wing chun both feet are just about equally involved- dont lift your heels- work on both stability and mobility....your stability and mobility keeps other flowing followups
possible without reloading.

[yenhoi]

MP - you lead with your right ?

Did yuanfen say there are hooks in the Biu Jee? (A form I havent learned just curious.)

My favorite 'punch' is the rear hook. Good times.

[yuanfen]

yenhoi- sure in boxing if you have fast straight right, you can lead
with your right. ((Good in some situations against southpaws specially- not exclusively when they are moving to your right)).In good wing chun- right-left makes no difference--depends on the moment. The foundation motion for hooks is in the dummy and in biu jee. In wing chun things are not always obvious but they are there. Hooks are great for close quarters work by shorties against folks from redwood timber country.

[old jong]

Let's not forget the "drilling" punch of chum kiu similar to the uppercut in some way and all the palms and chops variants and we have quite an arsenal. Wing Chun is a lot more than "Chain punching"...;)

[Merryprankster]

Hmm, I haven't experienced a problem getting taken down when I throw a hook. Then again, I also have several years of grappling experience. I'm largely unconcerned with the rear leg pivoting, as he has to get through my forward side to reach the rear one, and to execute a body lock, he has to come through the hook, and in any event, that's what quick recovery is all about. I don't feel particularly vulnerable, but I'm sure there is always somebody out there that does what they do better than I do what I do. I actually have a pretty low crouch that I fight out of, so that might be another reason I feel safe.

Yenhoi--I don't have a particularly fast right. However, when you are stepping in on a taller opponent, and trying to get inside, it is best to lead with power punches. By the time you land something on a decent outside fighter, he's pivoting and dancing away. No sense in throwing the jab--besides which, it's not that much good inside.

[yenhoi]

Mp- I was just wondering, since earlier you kept saying your left hook sucks, I was just trying to figure out which hook your left was, rear or lead...

I am very interested in hooks being in the 3rd form and dummy. Very cool.

[fa_jing]

I haven't been exposed to the third form or the dummy form, to know of the hook that Yuanfen is describing. I don't use the Western Boxing hook with the flat fist and the elbow lifted either. I'll angle my forearm in if punching from out to in but won't roll the shoulder. What I do use a lot of is looping punches, following the Jou Sao "Running hand" motion that we practice. Also vertical fist punches with an outward to inward curving motion and lots of waist power, maybe somewhere in between a cross and a hook. Basically, it the path is clear, the punch will go straight in, but if there is an obstruction, I usually choose to go around the obstruction, and the punch follows a minimally curved path. "Find the holes," me teacher says. The other option is to clear the obstruction, which I find generally more difficult.

[UltimateFighter]

In my opinion, you need to utilise hooks in a real fight. One of the reasons I chose WT is becasue they use a hook (from the biu Jee form). It is not a 'movement', it is a proper hook with hip rotation, very similar to a boxers hook, and is one of the three punching methods in WingTsun, the other two being uppercut and thrusting punch.

My adbvice would be to train it on a boxing bag. Otherwise, switch systems to one that teaches a hook. Yip man taught the hook punch, so it is genuine wing chun.

An elbow strike is a 'round' movement just like a hook. So anyone who argues that a hook does not foolow wing chun principles, they should not use elbows either. Obviosuly, that is nonsense. Wing chun in its original form always had a hook, to complete the three lines of attack.

[Merryprankster]

fa_jing,

What you're describing sounds similar in principle to the overhand right.

[TjD]

Originally posted by yuanfen
!. Western boxing and wing chun both have "hooks"-
the motion is not made up in wc- the path is there int the biu jee form.
5. I am shocked that tjd uses the pinky for focus... making of the classic fracture.
yuanfen-joy

well, as of late my biu jee is getting more internalized so things from it are just popping out in chi sau (lucky no biu's to the eyes - ha ha :D ) and since hooks came flying out from time to time and the mechanics really interested me, i started training them :)

yf is exactly right imho, biu jee definately trains the hook.

as to what knuckle(s) to hit with, i've gone with the pinky cuz thats what i've always used with the straight punch and i thought you were supposed to be hitting with the bottom knuckles anyhow:) so yaunfen, which ones do you hit with and whats up with the fracture? in a hook the hand bones are better aligned for hitting with the first two knuckles as opposed to the last two?

[TjD]

Originally posted by yuanfen
yenhoi- sure in boxing if you have fast straight right, you can lead
with your right. ((Good in some situations against southpaws specially- not exclusively when they are moving to your right)).In good wing chun- right-left makes no difference--depends on the moment. The foundation motion for hooks is in the dummy and in biu jee. In wing chun things are not always obvious but they are there. Hooks are great for close quarters work by shorties against folks from redwood timber country.


heh a lot happened today in this thread while i was at class :)

the first times my hooks started coming out were when i was doing chi sau with my sihing dave (i'm 6'0 but hes about 6'6 or 6'7 - definately a redwood :) ) when we're in close the hook just whips around his big ol arms which love to be on top of my centerline



Originally posted by old jong
Let's not forget the "drilling" punch of chum kiu similar to the uppercut in some way and all the palms and chops variants and we have quite an arsenal. Wing Chun is a lot more than "Chain punching"...

well, i think biu jee and chum kiu train an uppercut too.... another thing i'm really enjoying playing with :)

and while we're on the subject of odd punches, i think biu jee trains a horizontal punch while im at it, another thing i find that works well against the big guys. the horizontal punch slips over their arms easier sometimes, and can be less telegraphic vs a larger guy

[TjD]

guess talk about something other than whose lineage is the best isn't as interesting as something that actually has to deal with wing chun.... :(

[hunt1]

Is the WC hook really a hook punch or is it a straight punch on a different angle /trajectory. If the hook misses where does the energy/arm go. Past your body or is it still moving through the intended target ( where the target would have been if it had not moved).

Lets not get onto interupting the motion just if you follow the path of motion/energy is it moving forward away from your body or is it moving across your body?

[TjD]

if the hook misses its target, it goes towads the center, or wherever else you want it to... one of the major benefits of staying relaxed and sensitivity is that you dont overcommit yourself, only on impact do you explode into the target

[Wilson]

I've trained hooks in boxing and Muay Thai and I find themy come out occasionally during my Wing Chun now. When I throw the hook punch, my arm hardly moves, its mostly body. I don't think the power should come from the shoulder, it should come from the rotation of the hips and upper body. In order to do this, you need to pivot on the same side foot as the punch being throw. Watch old Mike Tyson training and see how his whole body goes into the hook. That is where the knock out power comes from. As far as where it really fits in with Wing Chun principles, I don't know. I would like to have affected the opponent first, be in close and then hit with the hook that I know from boxing/Muay Thai. For a hook to be effective, you need to be close. When you are close, you need to understand the opponent can just as easily hit you if you haven't stunned him first.

Incedentally, I always threw the hook with a vertical fist. Always felt more comfortable than turning my palm parallel to the floor. Need to practice on a bag or with focus mits. If you are not hitting with power (especially to the body), the hook does no good, is a waste of energy, and can get you in trouble.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
fa_jing,

What you're describing sounds similar in principle to the overhand right.

The overhand right follows the principle of "finding the holes." Technically it's different from what I do because I don't turn the shoulder over much- it's surprising when you think of it, there are actually many ways to punch, and yet there is only one punch. Although looking at a video tape of the tournament I was in, I threw an overhand lead left over the guy's block--all sorts of things come out in a dynamic situation. It ended up leading into my best combo of the match.