What is more important in a real fight?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Structure or Endurance. Why?

[Kempo Guy]

MST,
Please define what you mean by a "real fight".
Do you mean self-defense, or a 'fight' where two people square off (mutually agreeing to fight)?

If it is self-defense I would say structure is most important since the goal is to get out of the situation as quick as possible (and run away :D).

If you are 'fighting', then I would say endurance would have a big part of it. But unless you have a proper structure to begin with it would be futile against a trained opponent. With all things being equal, the better conditioned fighter will win.

KG

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
But unless you have a proper structure to begin with it would be futile against a trained opponent.
KG

Tell that to vanderlei silva :D

[Leimeng]

~Basic conditioning is the most important in a fight. If you cant throw a punch without getting winded, you are screwed.
~A very close second is the ability to take a hit. A large amount of so called "black belts" loose fights because the do light contact point sparring and wear padding all the time. They go to do a block and the pain of contact stuns them and they loose the initiative and loose the fight.

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

[SevenStar]

Endurance.

As we've seen from the many sport fighters with bad technique (I'm not saying that all of them have bad technique) and the many untrained fighters that have won fights - in some cases against trained fighters - you don't need perfect structure to make a technique work. Chances are, in a real fight, your techs won't be picture perfect. If you understand the principle behind it though, you can make the tech work.

The combination of adrenaline and the shock of being in an altercation can be murder on endurance, which is bad if you are facing multiple attackers or have to run away.

[crumble]

Endurance if you are bad, structure if you are good.

-crumble

[miscjinx]

From reading the responses, I am guess most are externalists and not internal fighters.

Assuming you are at least of normal constitution (not athletes, may work in offices at desks all day, but can move their furniture without hiring someone)...

Building structure is more important than building endurance.

With proper structure (implying balance and relaxation), you can move faster, hit harder, and fight longer than if you spent a bunch of time getting endurance.

I used to be in karate and we did lots of exercise - endurance training. After two years of this (and spending one summer laying railroad track for a mining company) my endurance was the best it ever was, but if I sparred heavily for a half hour or so I was winded. Muscles started to burn, get tired.

That was probably the best shape I've been in while practicing the martial arts. I've been studying taichi for years now and have started to get a good grasp of it. Recently I did some heavy sparring using tai chi (and internal martial art priniciples). I sparred heavily for two hours...my accuracy was going as I was a little tired, but if I had to I could have gone on fighting (and hurt the other guy, I needed accuracy to NOT hurt my partner).

What I learned from this was that building structure, balance, and relaxation (SBR) is far better than trying to work hard and build endurance. If you have proper SBR, you are not wasting energy with unnecessarily muscle use and are not fighting tension in the body. This equates to endurance...however, you did not try to build endurance...you worked on SBR.

If at some time I master the principles (including SBR), then I have wrung as much endurance from structure as I can...and if I think I need it I may try to build endurance in other ways. But I acquire so much more right now from buidling SBR that I don't bother worring about endurance or try to get more.

Besides, with SBR (and other principles) - you'll hit like a ton of bricks and you will move faster. So that is two more things you get from working on structure and the principles than worrying about buidling endurance.

So my answer to this question is definitely - STRUCTURE.

[paperweight]

Both are important but the key is:

Bravery

Without bravery no amount of technique or training will work...

[GLW]

Straight on paperweight...

When people ask me about self-defense...my first question to them is "How do you feel about the sight of blood?" They usually say "No problem" and I reply "Not the other guy....YOURS - in a fight you will probably see some of your own blood"

If they can't take this, I tell them to not start.

Then, there are teachers who do not train their students to take hits.... DUMB. Mistakes WILL happen and you WILL be hit at sometime. IF you can take the hit and not let it mess you up...you can do OK. Otherwise, you will lose the first time you get hit.

You have to be able to hang in their. This is endurance and it is neither internal nor external...it is being in shape and being healthy. Being out of shape and having power and technique only works if the fight ends quickly.

Most do...but do you train to fight an easy opponent or YOUR equal or superior?

Bravery first...then speed, then power, then technique.

Internal DOES attack and DOES move. Being passive only works if you are MUCH MUCH better than your opponent.

[count]

Structure first, for both hitting and being hit.

Endurance next for running away! :eek:

[Ford Prefect]

Neither really. A real fight isn't going to be a marathon and you'll have plenty of adrenaline fueling your body for it. Obviously structure isn't too important as unstructured brawlers can whoop some arse. I'd say mind set is the most important thing. Everything else is far behind.

[SevenStar]

yeah, I agree with bravery and mindset, but I think he's implying that you already possess those. I agree with jinx said, however, structure is not a requirement for a fight. Endurance on the other hand, may be, depending on the situation. A perfect example is a shuai chiao or judo player. They work endlessly on proper structure, as that makes the throw cleaner and easier to execute. BUT, if my structure is bad when I attempt the throw, I can still throw you, provided I did at least break your balance.

[miscjinx]

SevenStar
"I agree with jinx said, however, structure is not a requirement for a fight. Endurance on the other hand, may be"

Only for externalists...for internal martial arts, structure is the foundation for everything - and while maintaining proper body structure and relaxation you get endurance.

GLW
"Internal DOES attack and DOES move. Being passive only works if you are MUCH MUCH better than your opponent."

Who said internal doesn't attack and move? Who said anything about being passive?

[Walter Joyce]

"for internal martial arts, structure is the foundation for everything - and while maintaining proper body structure and relaxation you get endurance.

I completely agree.

GLW
"Internal DOES attack and DOES move. Being passive only works if you are MUCH MUCH better than your opponent"

I don't think passive ever works, no matter how good you are.

[Nanking '28]

my sifu says...

explore technique to grasp principle, holding principle, forget technique...
and...
While easier to employ, defense will not win the battle...

It seems to me that the Chinese martial arts have always concentrated greatly on winning a real fight (2 or more guys squared off) through being the more fit or better conditioned of the fighters
While its important to have correct technique and principle to win a fight quickly, an experienced opponent is not going down on the first strike...you gotta be able to roll with them punches and keep up with your opponent--even better if you're three steps ahead!

and of course, its all about mindset---If you have your mind balanced and relaxed you will react in a faster and more efficient manner than the guy who's so ticked off he's seeing red...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by miscjinx
SevenStar
"I agree with jinx said, however, structure is not a requirement for a fight. Endurance on the other hand, may be"

Only for externalists...for internal martial arts, structure is the foundation for everything - and while maintaining proper body structure and relaxation you get endurance.



Then what happens when you are faced with multiple attackers and one is able to steal your balance while you are trying to deal with others? They won't be attacking one at a time, so I imagine it would be extremely difficult to maintain that structure.

[blacktaoist]

If you are ever get in a real fight, then my opinion is you better have:

SKILL, BRAINS & GUTS.":D

[miscjinx]

SevenStar,

"Then what happens when you are faced with multiple attackers and one is able to steal your balance while you are trying to deal with others? They won't be attacking one at a time, so I imagine it would be extremely difficult to maintain that structure."

So give up your internal training and fight externally you say?

Internalists are notoriously difficult to "steal your balance" from. Whether you fight one or many, your fighting strategy is difficult...but if you're an internalist who has trained correctly - the principles don't change. You still will focus on structure, balance, relaxation, etc.

Structure is part of the foundation of internal fighting...any competent (no longer a beginner) internal fighter can keep their balance and structure during a fight with one or many attackers - it does not matter. How you move and get your power is from your structure, relaxation, etc.

No matter who you are, if someone can "steal your balance", your screwed...at the very least you are thrown. You don't loose your balance...that is another key.

[miscjinx]

Oops..

Not "your strategy is difficult", I meant to say "your strategy is different"

Sorry.

[GLW]

There are some strange folks who will claim you are not doing an internal style if you initiate the contact or if you are aggressive.

Anyone with any fighting knowledge knows this is BS...but then again, the statement mainly comes from Taijiquan people. I have NEVER heard a HsingYi, Bagua, or Liuhobafa person make this claim.

I also don't think you can ASSUME bravery. I know a number of people who 'spar' well but in real situations, they freeze and get mangled.

Getting there first - lot to be said for that. If an opponent is REALLY fast, they can make a lot of mistakes but you can't use them. But, once they get there, if they have no power, it doesn't matter...so they have to be able to do damage.

Proper technique is about being as effective and efficient as possible...in short - maximizing on courage, speed, and power. So, similar to developing an engineering system, technique can be viewed as optimization and is NOT 100% necessary to work...but it is necessary to work well.

[monkeywoman]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Structure or Endurance. Why?

Lightening speed and a killer instinct.:rolleyes:











Structure, the answer is already there.


I am no relationship to the monkey who posted the question.;)

[Water Dragon]

I believe the question was:

What is MORE important, structure OR endurance.

What is MOST important in a fight makes for an excellant topic, but that's not what was asked.

Basic reading comprehension guys.

[monkeywoman]

Maybe my sarcastic overtone was a little subtle. Thankyou for stating the obvious.;)

[Water Dragon]

I like you already :D

[SevenStar]

"I also don't think you can ASSUME bravery. I know a number of people who 'spar' well but in real situations, they freeze and get mangled. "

I'm not saying to assume it all of the time. I'm saying for the purpose of this thread. he was asking about structure vs. endurance, and he gets baravery, killer instinct, etc. for the sole purpose of this thread, he's assuming that's already there.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GLW

Proper technique is about being as effective and efficient as possible...in short - maximizing on courage, speed, and power. So, similar to developing an engineering system, technique can be viewed as optimization and is NOT 100% necessary to work...but it is necessary to work well.

My thought s exactly.

[MonkeySlap Too]

My two cents.

Endurance is more important. With endurance you will maintain structure if you have it.

But without endurance your structure will not hold, and you will be beaten down. You se this happen a lot.

Personally, I don't think mosdt CMA players condition themselves properly for fighting. Sure good structure can help you put down drunk uncle chuck (or anyone who is slow, stupid or unsophisticated) quickly, but in a serious fight - you need endurance.

After that, structure is an awesome tool.

[miscjinx]

MonkeySlap Too,

"Endurance is more important. With endurance you will maintain structure if you have it.

But without endurance your structure will not hold, and you will be beaten down. You se this happen a lot."

Endurance to maintain structure?

This is very much an external minded concept.

Years ago when I was doing lots of standing chi gong...I also practiced with a karate school that also taught tai chi. It was interesting to watch these people do their chi gong. They would sweat and work and basically endure their way to doing the standing posture an hour. They would talk about working through the pain and tiredness - and build endurance to get an hour.

This is the WRONG approach in internal martial arts.

I tried to relax...use a little muscle as possible, use my alignment and body structure to hold me up instead of muscle. I could also do an hour standing chi gong, but I was not working like they were - for me I felt I could stand there forever if I wanted to. I was using the bare minimum strength and muscle - it was all structure and gravity holding me up.

With proper structure and relaxation - you don't need endurance to keep it going ---- THAT IS WORK. I can take a push or exert a force on a person without working very hard. My body structure, balance, alignment, and relaxation takes care of it with the MINIMUM use of muscle and strength.

You see many beaten down and can't hold their structure - probably they are not aligned proper or have the correct body structure. The worse your structure, the more muscle you need - the quicker you tire, the more endurance you would need to build to keep doing it that way.

You may not know what I am talking about...basically until you feel what I am talking about (the same thing Mike Sigman and many others have also talked about) - you really don't know how effortless it is when you have proper body alignment/structure, relaxation, and balance.

[Walter Joyce]

Interesting post Miscjinx. Would you mind emailing or messaging me, I would like to ask about your experience with Mike Sigman.

[count]

Endurance is more important. With endurance you will maintain structure if you have it.

But without endurance your structure will not hold, and you will be beaten down. You se this happen a lot.

If this were true how come you don't see more Tae Bo winning in the UFC?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Has anyone here been in a real fight?

Sure structure is 'effortless' - but effortless has a different meaning when your lungs are burning, your limbs can barely move and your taking shots because you can't move efficiently anymore.

No matter how well coded into your physiology your structure is, you will hit a point where you are too tired to stay erect.

That's a fact.

No amount of classroom philosophizing will teach you this. (why are people who never fought in their lives allowed to teach fighting? Should learn cooking from someone who has never cooked themselves, but learned all the 'moves' and 'theories'?)

As far as Tae Bo not winning, where are the internal players? I haven't seen any Taiji or BGZ no holds barred champions walking around - so maybe structure is just a silly concept for mental/martial masturbation? (I don't beleive that, but there is a lot of evidence to support that theory...)

Nice try though, Count, but knowing who you train under, I think you know the answers to all my 'trick' questions...

[Water Dragon]

OOOOHHHHHHHHHHHkay, NOW I get it. (I think ;) )

[miscjinx]

MonkeySlap Too,

It is obvious you have no conception of what I am talking about.

"Sure structure is 'effortless' - but effortless has a different meaning when your lungs are burning, your limbs can barely move and your taking shots because you can't move efficiently anymore.
No matter how well coded into your physiology your structure is, you will hit a point where you are too tired to stay erect. "

Hard sparring for an hour and a half without getting winded is pretty good in my opinion...I did it by staying relaxed and maintaining structure. Not only did I not get winded, but I could hit harder when my structure is correct.

NO fight will last an hour and a half, so I am pretty happy with the endurance I have - not from building endurance, but from maintaining proper body alignment/structure, relaxation, and balance.

You don't know what I am talking about, so it is pointless to continue this discussion with you. But if you are like those karate guys doing chi gong (work through the pain, tiredness, etc and get endurance) - you are not doing internal martial arts correctly if you practice them.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Wrong again Miscjinx - you obviously do not know where I'm coming from, and I'd argue you've never been in a real fight.

I know exactly what you are talking about. But without fighting experience you do not understand the nature of a brawl. Once you've entered a downward spiral - where your opponent is saturating your mistakes or multiple opponents are beating you down, your structure will break down. And the less fit you are, the faster that will happen.

Classroom philosophising cannot replace direct experience.

I'm sure some of my students on this board are going WTF? Because structure is my primary message.

But without endurance, structure fails. Sure you can stave off that failure with good structure, but you cannot prevent it.

If you tell me you are out of shape and fought hard against skilled opponents trying to take your head off for 1-1/2 hours, I'd tell you that you are a delusional individual with significant mental issues.

So - you are in shape aren't you? Your endurance does carry you through. Your structure just helps along, just like it makes your techniques work.

(Note I did not ask what is more important in application - I asked about what is more important in a fight. In application structure is paramount, whereas in a fight, you need the steam.)

[count]

It reminds me of the old expression, "Money will get you through times of no dope better than dope will get you through the times of no money."

All I'm saying is endurance comes from training your structure more than the other way around. Having endurance won't get you through a fight if you have no structure. Anyway, look at the thread about fighting BGZ class (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=15712) if you want to talk about endurance training. And yes, I've been in both types of fights and I can tell you which ones last longer. But now that I'm an old man I relay on my structure over my endurance. Of course it takes alot of endurance to win the only important fight.

"Beware the only true enemy!"

[MonkeySlap Too]

Count,
No fair man. That was going to be the next thing I pulled out - that your fitness should come from proper training.

But you have to admit, there are plenty of guys out there that think mechanics alone will serve them well - but do not train those mechanics adequately enough to make it work.

I was talking to a buddy of mine and he gave the example of the guy who focused on fitness, but had no structure and no fighting skill.

But as I mentioned above - I'm assumeing skilled fighters. Which means the guy who has more gas has an improved chance of winning, no matter how good the engine performs.

Isn't getting old a b!tch? I'm in a neoprene knee brace today, and I hate it!

[Water Dragon]

OK so I didn't get it :(

















But one day I will!!!!!!

[dubj]

Yeah, you guys beat me to my answer. Maybe I am not getting the good "internal", but I thought structure and endurance go hand in hand. In order to have good structure you had to endure the training. When first starting, horse and cat and every other stance will make your legs sore. After a while your muscles and tendons become stronger and you can rely more on tendon strength. I don't understand how you would be able have good strong stances if you are out of shape and first starting out. Now to answer the question. From what I have been taught, structure is more important because a skilled fighter with gung fu should not be in a long drawn out fight. It will be a short exchange of who gains control after the first few moves and the person with skill and power(structure)will get in and end it quickly. Now if you are talking about boxing I would say it is pretty even, but endurance will likely win.

[count]

Good training definately invovles separate endurance training. Endurance comes in many flavors too. Stamina, energy, explosive and released over time. I don't think standing will build the kind of endurance to last the distance against a well trained, skilled fighter. The only way to go rounds is to build up your endurance. But all the aerobic training in the world won't help you if you get hit. I still say, structure gives you power to give and get. Endurance is important but not the most. Just MHO!

[dubj]

Wouldn't you agree though, that in a real fight, or what I consider a real fight(a skinhead or two trying to stomp your skull into the ground)that the better person that day wins? Considering our two scenario fighters are supposed to be highly skilled and we are speaking of kung fu, the person with the better structure will be able to get their blows in and end it very violently and quickly. Isn't that what all of the palm strikes, elbows, knees, kicks, breaks, and throws are for? Now I completely agree that you should be able to take a shot and that counts as endurance, but I doubt anyone could take my, or better yet, a highly trained persons elbow to the jaw or temple.
In a real and good fight, I don't think that wrestling, boxing, or marathon endurance should make a difference.

[dubj]

I guess you already did agree sort of. Anyway, happy birthday Count.

[SevenStar]

endurance in stance training is muscular endurance, not cardiovascular. While it's true that a real altercation should not last long, there are physiological factors that really tax your system and will have you prematurely gasping for breath. Also, you may be in a situation where you have to run.

"the person with the better structure will be able to get their blows in and end it very violently and quickly. Isn't that what all of the palm strikes, elbows, knees, kicks, breaks, and throws are for? Now I completely agree that you should be able to take a shot and that counts as endurance, but I doubt anyone could take my, or better yet, a highly trained persons elbow to the jaw or temple."

That's what they are for, but does it always work that way? I know you've seen martial artists get mauled by untrained fighters before. And what if there are multiple attackers?

as for flavors of endurance, I think he meant more body specific (muscle, aerobic, etc.) not sports specific, however, that does matter. take a distance runner and put him in the ring. He likely will gas early if he's not a fighter. missing techniques, taking shots, landing strikes, etc. all have effects on the system and distance running doesn't really acount for it. He may not have the muscle endurance, and in later rounds, his legs will feel weak.

[dubj]

No, I have never seen a real martial artist get beat down by an untrained opponent. I also haven't seen a whole lot of martial artists really fight. If a martial artist was beaten down by someone unskilled, I doubt that it is because of endurance and more of a lack of skill. I also only brought up stances in regards to previous statements about using no muscular force. You have to use muscular strength in training before you gain the skill to not do so. Since we are talking about skilled fighters, meaning they have gone through the stance, form, application, free fighting and other forms of training, I still say that the only indurance that should matter in a real(trying to take the guys head off) fight is the ability to take a hit. And with a skilled trained fighter throwing many full powered strikes in rapid succession, yes the landed strikes will always do the trick. While your points are correct, they are not relevant to the assumed situation. Remember, everything I am saying is in the context of two nop knotch fighters seriously going at it, and not every fight or fighter.

[crumble]

So endurance is more important than structure, but you have to get that endurance while training with good structure? :p

-crumble

[miscjinx]

MonkeySlap Too,

You don't get what I am saying.

But as one last chance that perhaps may means something...with proper body structure, balance, and relaxation you are using the minimum muscle needed, you are not carrying tension, and so you don't get tired as fast (say a beginner or externalist who doesn't know how to move right and be properly aligned).

SO,

"But as I mentioned above - I'm assumeing skilled fighters. Which means the guy who has more gas has an improved chance of winning, no matter how good the engine performs."

But if one engine is running with the sand and dirt of tension, misbalance, and misalignment instead of the one using the newest synthetic oil of finese, balance, relaxation, and proper body structure...which will run longer.

Ya, you can get enough gas to burn through the sand and dirt until you sieze (you burn more gas when your less efficient)...but the other is more efficient and may very well outlast you.

Perhaps using your own analogy will help you get my point.


As for my own experience...I would not say I am way out of shape...but the best shape I was in I was studying karate - AND I could never spar hard and continuously for and hour and a half. I am in poorer shape than then and now if I maintain proper body structure, balance, and relaxation - I can spar an hour and a half.

This is raw efficiency - not getting more gas, just improving the engine to make it use gas more efficiently and econonical. If you are only getting 5 miles to the gallon and have a 30 gallon tank and I get 30 miles to the gallon and have a 10 gallon tank...I will by double.

Internal martial arts focus on finese and efficiency...not bull-dozing your way through.

[miscjinx]

MonkeySlap Too,

Out of curiousity (so I know if I am completely wasting my time or not), do you study taiji, bagua, hsing-i or any internal martial art?

[miscjinx]

I'm curious to know which one(s).

[Water Dragon]

I'm probably going to get chastised for this but ******, I'm going to say it anyway.

MS2 has studied Hsing Yi through the Chang Tung Sheng lineage. He keeps company with some of Wai Lun Choi's senior students. I know that Drake on this board knows him and I actually got to meet Barry, one of Mr. Choi's Bagua guys a few weeks ago.

He's worked with Li Tai Lang and is currently working with some other high level teachers (whom I wont name simply because it's not my place)

I did 5 years in the William CC Chen lineage before I found this school. And though the teaching methodology is extremely different, I was impressed enough to start over learning his stuff.

Of course all this is in addition to the fact that MS2 is primarily a Shuai Chiao teacher with somewhere around 20 years of experience.

I have no idea what else he knows as the gentleman doesn't really like to talk about lineage. He prefers to train and terrorize those of us who would like to gain a fraction of his skill.

Have a good day :)

[Walter Joyce]

Well now, thats a horse of a different color now, isn't it.

Interesting how someone with such lineage doesn't parade it around. Thats a free lesson to us all.

Feeling somewhat chastized myself,
Walter

[Water Dragon]

To clarify, "worked with" and "keeps company with" doesn't mean the same as "train under". It just means that you can base your opinions on the real deal. No need to inflate anything here.

Just don't wont to be misunderstood or seen as bragging about my teachers heritage. He can more than stand on his own accomplishments.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

They are of equal importance in an actual conflict.. structure to support the technique, endurance to see it through..

Structure alone can be worn down by a stronger fighter.. endurance alone allows you get beaten for a longer period of time.. Together, structure AND endurance produces a balanced fighter.. To assume one is more important than another, in my opinion, is a flawed approach.. unbalanced..

Just another perspective from the Far-side, be well..

[SevenStar]

http://www.realfighting.com/0102/mattfurey.htm

yeah, yeah, he's an externalist. I stumbled on this article though and thought it was somewhat pertinent.

[TkdWarrior]

everything and nothing is important in street fight and all of them r not so important in a real fight...
anything which can get u live out of real fight is important...otherwise u wudn't hav time to regret this

-TkdWarrior- :cool: