What the hell's happening to MMA?

[Ryu]

MMA magazines and the "atmosphere" of the tournaments used to really emphasize fighting spirit, realistic technique, competive spirit, etc. For some reason, it seems to me that it's growing more and more into the "WWF" type of garbage. Perhaps it's just certain magazines, etc. But I used to buy Grappling magazine all the time, kept up on current trends, etc. I happened to flip through a Black Belt "Sport Fighting" magazine (new magazine?) that covers MMA fighting..... and almost all that I read seemed to convey an almost "gang" like atmosphere, arrogant bad ass attitude, and every advertisement they had seemed to sell "bikini cat fight" videos, P_enis enlargement packages, "how to have better sex" in bed videos, etc. etc.!

Look, maybe I'm old fashioned, and I am too "ethical" in some people's eyes, but I really thought that magazine was in very bad taste. I can't even buy Grappling Mag anymore because it's getting just as bad.

I'm really disappointed in the kind of media coverage MMA is getting..... no wonder the majority of people are starting to wince at its name now.
MMA is a VERY effective way of fighting, training, and honing a competitive spirit. It really has the potential in my mind to really stand out in a very good way..... so I don't understand why they take this route :( It's becoming something I don't even want to associate myself with anymore.....

Obviously MMA is part of my training.... but what I keep seeing is really starting to bother me.

Just a rant I guess......

Ryu

[Xebsball]

When i said MMA sucked nobody listened to me :p
The Gracies were bullies, what did you expect to come out of that huh? Fighting spirit, honor, blah blah blah?

[Ryu]

I'm not against the MMA practitioners themselves. They have nothing to do with what's being promoted... it's the media coverage I'm disappointed about. It's going to make these atheletes look very low class in a lot of people's minds. I mean Japan's mags on MMA are nothing like that..... at least not yet.. :mad:

I'm just annoyed at that. The mag I picked up was almost a borderline "adult" magazine. I'm not saying there's not a place for that, but I don't think MMA or martial art in general is that place....

:( aw well....

Ryu

[Cipher]

I know what you mean. Things seem to be going down hill. The thing that sucks, for anything not just MMA, is that if the media leads one direction then that is how the general view on the subject will be.

[apoweyn]

Are there any English-language MMA mags being published out of Japan? (Doubtful, I know)

The Japanese do seem to have a much more austere (and in my opinion preferable approach to this stuff).


Stuart B.

[The Willow Sword]

It HAS been over run with shaven head vin diesel fuk choads with no idea what it is to truly BE a martial artist,,,they have no respect for themselves or anyone else,,they just get off on grappling with other men and brutalizing them in this repressed ****sexual manner. they sport these tournaments which serve no purpose other than to entertain all the toothless dyptheria ridden lowlifes with T-shirts that say " my sister is the best" .
"oh lets all respect these guys,,lets band together and put our *****s in thier butt in appreciation of the hard work they do" lets
all have one big GAY PORN love fest and worship these guys and commend them for taking MA to an all new high"

ARRRRGHHHHH!!!!! ARRRGHHHHHH!!!!! SHWAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!! RAARRRRRRRRRRRRGHH!!!!

.................................................. .................................................. ..................................whew that felt better,,,,,,,now what was the question?
:confused: (where are my pills?)

MRTWS

[old jong]

The thing started with the very first UFC's and the cards girls going around the octagon almost ass naked .It was quite a new feeling to the martial arts! Some BJJ websites also added the "Girl of the month" or something often "submitting" some "poor" guy with an armbar or triangle wearing a g-string in place of a gi!... ;) Now ,we even have "ladies" giving very special wrestling shows at home or hotel. Look at that!... (http://www.viragowrestling.com/) Of course,this mix of fighting and sex is very good for sales.They say that money has no odor?...
I say all these things will harm the serious MMA's in the medium to long run as corruption has hurted professionnal boxing in the past or as politics and greed have hurted many Kung Fu lines.

[Kristoffer]

I've always had that macho feeling from bjj. but it's not like it doesn't excists in CMA. :rolleyes:

[KC Elbows]

Welcome to the flighty world of magazines. They get it right for about two weeks, then have to do everything wrong in order to raise up sales. If they're lucky, they won't go under, but oftentimes they do.

Of course, you wouldn't be writing this post if you read Kung Fu Qigong magazine.

Pretty soon Gene's gonna owe me a whole six pack. Or one of those water pipes he bogarts all the time.:D

[Suntzu]

magazines make $$$ selling ad space… look at there target audience… 13 - 25 y.o. males… what else are you gonna sell them… walt disney and nickolodean aren't gonna throw good $$$ to reach them… 13 - 25 want and get bikinis, sex, EAS and close-ups of open head wounds... sex and violence pays the bills...

… and let me hold that bikini cat fight vid when you're done;)...

[qeySuS]

I dont mind really, fightsport is one of my favourite magazines, i agree with you that those advertisements suck, the ***** enlargement thing and all that, but it´s a good magazine and i cant say taht the articles in it promote any badass stuff, recently they had an interview with don frye who said he´d been childish in his handlings with shamrock and was very cool about it. Also had a cool piece on how Nogueira has survived being in a Koma after a car accident and ****.

Btw you still train with Vunak? Met two guys this summer that train/trained with him (english John and english James (wilkes)), and they had some crazy stories :) He seems cool.

[Ford Prefect]

Ryu,

I stopped being interested in MMA for the same reason. It's going "main stream" just like everybody wanted. Oh well. I still roll with some JKD guys, but I'm going back to kung fu for the mentality etc.

[Merryprankster]

Ryu, I hear you--but remember that's the fan base. There's nothing to be done about it. Think about it this way, San Shou doesn't get NEAR the same amount of attention. EVERYBODY has heard of the UFC. They might get the name wrong, and they might think it's a "death match," but they've got an idea of what it is.

The price of popularity is appealing to the lowest common denominator. The last set of fights I went to was at a biker convention. The promoter set that venue up last minute, halved his ticket price, and made a killing. Standing room only, and nobody who knew a THING about what was going on was watching. The typical kick his ass crap. On the other hand, you haven't lived until you've watched 1000 screaming bikers do... well, anything....

Here's the truth--in Japan they've merged "TMA" with"MMA." They've got the right idea that MMA fights are a VENUE and you train accordingly. To them, it's just a natural extension of their other competitions.

In the US, for some reason most people were offended when it was demonstrated that what they were doing might not hold up to scrutiny. It's part of what Apoweyn terms the "true believer," syndrome--everybody wants to believe what they do has all the answers and that any faults in what they can accomplish with their training are due to personal failings (not doing it right, etc) vs possible training failures. I'll personally never forget when a friend of my girlfriends was watching one of the early UFC's with us, and saw a Kyokushin guy with an established fight record in in Japanese Kyokushintournaments get clobbered by one of the grapplers. His comment was "Oh, well he was only a 2nd dan. If he had been a 4th dan then things might have been different." It's that kind of illusory thinking that blows my mind. He lost because he was unfamiliar with an entire set of attacks that were thrown at him.

Anyway, couple that type of reticence this with a lot of loudmouth TMA bashing on the part of MOSTLY wanna-be fighters who aren't actually willing to train that hard EVER, and you've got the makings of a minor war that's still going on. The original few UFC's were all about putting different people of different styles in the ring, and that was COOL. Then Rorion sold the whole mess after UFC IV or something like that(no problem), and the next set of promoters emphasized the "bloodsport," aspect, bragging that it was banned in 49 states. (problem!) Yeah, that'll sell to the mainstream...and now you've got "Tough Guys," by the dozens. These are the guys that would have believed pro-wrestling was real in the early 80's.

Hard core MAists of all types should have been WELCOMING the UFC and similar events, as a chance to at least show people what good hard sparring was all about, and probably would have, if it wasn't for the constant bashing so many of the wanna be's spew. It gets tiresome to be told you suck repeatedly, when these guys know nothing about your training.

This problem is not going away. It has to make more money to be mainstream, and it will never be mainstream without an educated audience, and you'll never educate the masses with a magazine that's basically T & A. Two hopes are foreign fight fans and the fact that people who follow WRESTLING are typically not the trailer park tough guy type.

Willow, has it ever occured to you that your stereotyping of MMA fighers is almost identical to the assertion made by those feminists that all men are violent? You're still incapable of putting together anything resembling a decent argument, but you blow hot air pretty good.

[The Willow Sword]

DILLIGAF


mrtws

[Silumkid]

Sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but what do you mean by this question? UFC has always been full of low-lifes and liars and braggarts.

Kimo...claimed to have all sorts of training, then was later revealed to be nothing more than "basically a big football player with a gimmick"...pretty WWE'ish.

Tank Abbott...yeah, there was a class individual. :rolleyes:

That three tooth biker dude that competed once that I know of and did that ridiculous somersault landing flat on his back.

Steve what'shisname...the "Ninja Cop" who won the same as event as above mentioned biker boy.

That fat black fella who claimed to be a sumo champion...of where? His neighborhood?

The entire "undefeated, unbeatable" Gracie clan...call it semantics, call it whatever you want, but a loss is a loss and Poppa Helio is NOT undefeated. So that makes them braggarts and liars.

I'm really not trying to sound insulting here...I respect what these guys are willing to do to themselves to prove whatever it is they feel they need to prove. I just don't think we should try to romanticize it into something it isn't.

[SifuAbel]

People are begining to treat MMA as a style unto itself. It just sounds cooler to call it MMA. Its kickboxing(some good but mostly bad kickboxing) and brand X wresting or jj.
As time goes on its becoming less and less about fighting and more about the new MMA, More Massive Anabolics.

It does attact the teenage fringe. As we can tell here every summer. Sex is a big seller to the 16- 23 demographic. It tells them , "hey, be like us and you get all these chicks". They don't tell them that their pee pee's shrink with every dose or that thery are going to mutilate their bodies for absolutley nothing.

[The Willow Sword]

He said "Pee Pee's"



MRTWS

[rubthebuddha]

but the chicks, man, the chicks!

[TaoBoy]

I've always just gotten the impression that MMA guys were guys just interested in fighting and not much else - and this perception is due entirely to the way the majority of clubs/practitioners are portrayed in advertisements or in the media. Now, obviously the truth is that there are non-meatheads in MMA (just as there are meatheads in CMA etc) - but you just don't see it as much. I boycotted all these clubs until recently because the vibe they had was not what I was looking for. I'm sure others have felt the same.

Recently, I took my girlfriend - who studies kung fu with me - to check out a Gracie BJJ school. No-one greeted us, we were simply looked at and ignored and there was not a single female in the class. Not good for the business of your general MA public.

*takes a breath*

And what's with all the marketing martial on the gis of BJJ dudes? These guys look like billboards.

*takes breath - feels better*

[Serpent]

Hmmm. So the novelty is wearing off?

The whole concept is drowning in commercialism?

The MMA fad is drawing to an end?

Welcome to our world guys! Now you just have to go through all the crap and find the few gems of schools that are still out there and ignore the large majority of bollocks by which you are judged by the general the public.

[straight blast]

This is what happens when a style/whatever becomes a fad. Karate got massively hyped, Ninjutsu was the same- God even at one point Tae Kwon Do was considered to be the cream of the MA crop. It simply had to happen to MMA. Once the bandwagon starts rolling many are willing to leap onto it :(

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
People are begining to treat MMA as a style unto itself. It just sounds cooler to call it MMA. Its kickboxing(some good but mostly bad kickboxing) and brand X wresting or jj.
As time goes on its becoming less and less about fighting and more about the new MMA, More Massive Anabolics.

It does attact the teenage fringe. As we can tell here every summer. Sex is a big seller to the 16- 23 demographic. It tells them , "hey, be like us and you get all these chicks". They don't tell them that their pee pee's shrink with every dose or that thery are going to mutilate their bodies for absolutley nothing.

Why is it not a style? CMA mix snake and crane and call it wing chun. they mix ape and crane and call it hop gar. But, when you mix muay thai and grappling, it can't be it's own style?

as for mutilation, the avg kickboxer suffers no more damage than the avg boxer. with sport fighting, especially where grappling is involved, there is higher risk for knee injury, but that risk is common among most sports. As popular as MMA has become, there are still many misunderstandings/misconceptions.

As for fads, the next will be either san shou or shuai chiao.

[SifuAbel]

Nope, if we were talking about two SPECIFIC styles them maybe. But this is not the case with MMA . It a mixture of two TYPES of fighting. The styles are numerous and casually intermingled. There is no one set style you can say is THE mma.

As far as the mutilation is concerned, this is a selling point FOR and BY mma that is used like a mantra. There is NO thought of longevity in MMA. The number of people that quit due to injury is growing, RAPIDLY.

[SevenStar]

there's no longevity due to age constraints - obviously you can't do this at 55. the majority of mma injuries are minor - I've seen far worse in judo.

I can see your point on the MMA thing, but I think it can be classified as a general system. Then there are specifics, like shoot fighting, which is muay thai and bjj.

Is there one set system of longfist that you can say is THE longfist? I know of at least 3 different versions of lian bu chuan and gung li chuan, and two different versions of tuan da. it's still all called longfist. It conforms to longfist principles and varies in forms.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Xebsball
When i said MMA sucked nobody listened to me :p
The Gracies were bullies, what did you expect to come out of that huh? Fighting spirit, honor, blah blah blah?

I don't know if I would agree with that assessment of the Gracies. I think they felt that it was time to show a large audience the effectiveness of their family system. Being confident doesn't always equate to arrogance or being a bully. Many of the challenge matches that occurred outside of the ring were made to the Gracies.

I personally am friends with Ryron and to a certain degree Renner Gracie and they are really cool and down-to-earth. They don't go around bullying people, but they know what to do if bullied. Royce is a very nice person, as are all the GJJ/BJJ/CJJ guys I've met and trained with.

They have very stong chi and that intimidates a lot of folks, hahaha!!!

NHB as it is today is trying to stay alive and gain a bigger following. The truth is that with commercialization many of the seedy trappings of capitalism begin to manifest. Sex and sensationalism sells. I agree with Ryu about the efficacy of MMA training, but he also knows how i feel about "bad budo" (see Sokon Matsumura's "Bucho Ikko"). Bye all....

[Martial Joe]

If it makes you feel better, most of the fighters are really nice guys from what ive heard, read, and seen.

[Merryprankster]

Abel, the injury rate is indicative of hard training. That's life. Hard training in live scenarios (not life-like--two guys squaring off in speedos will NEVER be life like unless you're on the beach in Brazil) produces injuries. Wrestling, Judo, Boxing, Kickboxing... Watch a Basho--Sumo wrestlers are contstantly fighting hurt. If you quit because of injuries, well, good luck finding a place that goes hard where you won't get injured. I haven't found that yet. This is a price of training with a competition mindset. You don't want to compete, you can take it a little easier.

Oddly enough I've had fewer injuries boxing than grappling... :)


Welcome to our world guys! Now you just have to go through all the crap and find the few gems of schools that are still out there and ignore the large majority of bollocks by which you are judged by the general the public.

Yes and no--You join an MMA gym, and most likely, you will train with a competition mindset and orientation. It's a full contact sport with full contact training. It's like boxing--nobody who enters a boxing gym thinks they can get away with not sparring full contact and call themselves a boxer. You go to box, expect to get hit. Boxing doesn't attract hobbyists or peaceful neo-hippies. An MMA school without contact that claims its too deadly to fight? That doesn't begin to fit the mindset of the types of people MMA attracts. We aren't interested in philosophy or 'personal improvement,' as primary goals. We're there to learn to fight. Most of us aren't even INTERESTED in self defense. I'm not that interested. Look, I do a sport with self-defense applications, and I don't think I suffer any illusions about that. MOST of what I train is sport BJJ related because it's fun. I also have managed to use it in a less restricted environment and that was fun too.


And what's with all the marketing martial on the gis of BJJ dudes? These guys look like billboards.

AMEN!! I LMAO every time I go to a tournament. Here comes goateed, big bad tattooed, stacked, angry looking Joe Suxalot wearing a billboard. I laugh to myself everytime.

Willow--terse and utterly devoid of content--except for the terseness, I'd say that's about par.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I always knew it to be rootless, and it was simply what it always perchanced itself to be. Techniques knicked from everything else, learnt quickly and used in a peiced together fashion. It is true that people have used it or gone under the guise of it and have managed to hammer others into the ground. However to be honest I'd be glad to see its demise.

[Merryprankster]

I always knew it to be rootless, and it was simply what it always perchanced itself to be. Techniques knicked from everything else, learnt quickly and used in a peiced together fashion. It is true that people have used it or gone under the guise of it and have managed to hammer others into the ground. However to be honest I'd be glad to see its demise.

Because??

And I'd have to disagree here--a "rootless" BJJ black belt is a rarity. Most people who do this stuff have an exceptionally strong base in something. With Ryu, it's Judo. I have a strong wrestling and BJJ background. One of my friends is an outstanding MT fighter, etc.

[Repulsive Monkey]

so why do they deviate into the world of MMA maybe as strong as their foundation is in one art, it could prehaps be that they initially started out in mediocre art?

Now for one I do not consider most traditional arts as being insubstantial , the main probelm is that someone cleaves to that art for 8 years or so never gets beyond an intermediate level and then gets bored and goes off onto something else. Most traditional arts do not have an end point. So saying that someone has reach the finishing line of having a black belt, intrinsically, is totally inconsequential. Does this mean they only have a finite amount of knowledge now left for them to encircle their entire art? No it usually means that they have more than ever before to learn as they open onto another level. Its this structure of unfolding which is not present in MMA. However it is also this (as stated above) scenario which leads many into MMA too.

[Merryprankster]

so why do they deviate into the world of MMA maybe as strong as they foundation is in one art, it could prehaps be that they initialyy started out in mediocre art?

I hardly consider BJJ or wrestling or Judo to be mediocre. Muay Thai/kickboxing (not american style....)certainly isn't either, and this is where you get most of your fighters.

Now, why do they go to MMA instead of staying in "x?" I dunno... why do some people choose to be nurses and others chefs? I took one look at it and thought NEAT! Then I found somewhere to train

BJJ and MMA have always been close cousins so you actually get some of the very best in the world at BJJ doing both. They win and lose some just like others. Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr, and Dan Severn were all very good wrestlers--international caliber--not necessarily international champions, but they have international experience. Matt Lindland took the silver in Greco-Roman wrestling in Sydney, Randy Couture was one of USA's very best Greco guys....
But there's not much money in it, and maybe they're looking for something new to play--new ways to use the skills they learned. Maurice Smith was an excellent K-1 fighter having fought some of the very best competition, and maybe he was looking for new ways to use the skills he learned too. I would call that exploration and "unfolding," of the highest order--"how can I use my skills in an unfamiliar venue?" Some people, like Royce Alger, can't make the transition. Some people, like Alexander Karelin, don't want to (man, would I PAY to see THAT though!)

I will say that the reason you haven't seen the very best boxers is money. Why do MMA if I can make so much more boxing, if I'm good at it?

As with any art--traditional or not--there is no end point. It's just different. My boxing coach learned to box. Then he competed for awhile, now, at late 50's early 60's something, he's teaching boxing, and I'll bet learning more and more about how to box as he's doing it. I know I've learned more about wrestling in the past 3 years than I knew when I was wrestling competitively. Am I competing in wrestling? No--but through the process of teaching some fo the things I know I've learned an awful lot about it.

Exploration and open-endedness isn't unique to anything, but has a great deal more to do with personality than an art.

I don't think your "unfolding structure," model applies beyond an individual basis. If the person can't explore new applications or refine old ones or come to a better understanding of things out of having reached a "goal," and lapsing into disinterest, that's hardly the fault of the art, or even of the coach/teacher.

[apoweyn]

silumkid,


Originally posted by Silumkid
Sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but what do you mean by this question? UFC has always been full of low-lifes and liars and braggarts.

it does sound harsh, yeah. but it's an opinion. that's fine.

that said, martial arts in general have always been filled with low lifes, braggarts, and liars. we all know that. from the moment anyone figured out that there was money to be made, acclaim to be had, and rubes to be taken advantage of, these sorts of people were an inevitability. but, frankly, while there are some unsavoury characters in the octagon, i'd rather have them there, where the truth of the matter is going to come out, like it or not.

again, i think we're falling on that "that's not us, it's them" argument. point at a low life in CMA and he's 'not a representative of real kung fu.' point at one in MMA and he becomes an icon of the whole system.


Kimo...claimed to have all sorts of training, then was later revealed to be nothing more than "basically a big football player with a gimmick"...pretty WWE'ish.

yep. and refresh my memory. what happened to kimo? he lost to royce gracie (a far smaller and less WWE'ish fellow). then there's kimo's teacher, joe son. an equally flamboyant competitor (which worked, given the amount of film work he's gotten). and what happened to him? one trip into the octagon, eight punches in the nuts, and never seen again in that venue.

see a pattern?


Tank Abbott...yeah, there was a class individual. :rolleyes:

can't argue with you there. don't like tank abbott. enjoy seeing him get beaten by more skilled and well-mannered competitors. tank abbott would be a sociopath regardless of where he is. he's not a product nor a representative of MMA. he's one aspect of MMA, just as he's one aspect of modern society. at least UFC brings him into direct competition with people that are his match or better. the venue doesn't allow him to be the thug he'd like to be, because he's fighting people who are too good to be... thugged.


That three tooth biker dude that competed once that I know of and did that ridiculous somersault landing flat on his back.

howard something. won one match with a well executed punch against a muay thai guy. lost the only other match i've seen him in. again, the showboats are filtered out. or defeated consistently. either way, you're hardly rewarded for style over substance.


Steve what'shisname...the "Ninja Cop" who won the same as event as above mentioned biker boy.

and what, precisely, was low-life, braggart, or liar about steve jennum? or howard?

kimo's a bit of a goof. abbott's the only genuine low life so far.


That fat black fella who claimed to be a sumo champion...of where? His neighborhood?

emmanuel yarborough. and, to my knowledge, he is an accomplished sumotori. have you done any research on sumo before deriding his background?


The entire "undefeated, unbeatable" Gracie clan...call it semantics, call it whatever you want, but a loss is a loss and Poppa Helio is NOT undefeated. So that makes them braggarts and liars.

granted, i have a problem with this too. if you lost, you lost. i find the gracie presentation a bit much. but, again, MMA is bigger than the gracies. much bigger.

can you cite examples of sakuraba talking crap?

what about the shamrocks? frank has done so on occassion. but i think he grew into it a bit. in his later performances, he's still got the confidence you'd expect from a fighter who excels. but he's also a little more realistic about his own limitations, etc. that's the thing about competitions like UFC. talk as much crap as you want, but at some point, reality is going to set in. someone's going to beat you.

not 'reality' in the bigger sense. just the understanding that you're not the best. you won a bout. no more, no less. the more mature MMA'ers (and there are many) understand that.


I'm really not trying to sound insulting here...I respect what these guys are willing to do to themselves to prove whatever it is they feel they need to prove. I just don't think we should try to romanticize it into something it isn't.

no, well, we'd be hard pushed to romanticize the shamrocks, right? a guy runs a home for boys, adopts two of them, and they grow up to become accomplished athletes who sing their father's praises up and down for what he did for them. what a bunch of low lifes.

get my point? this venue, like any other, attracts a spectrum of people. some of them, i'd happily hang out with on a saturday night (as i have done with merryprankster, the only MMA'er i know personally). others, i'd like to see tazered into submission and shipped into outer space (as with merry... er, no sorry).

:)


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
so why do they deviate into the world of MMA maybe as strong as they foundation is in one art, it could prehaps be that they initialyy started out in mediocre art?

good god. yeah, that must be it. they didn't make the same choices as us. so clearly, they must have been mistaken in the first place. and then they continue to make different choices than us. it's like they're fundamentally flawed or something. why can't they see that if they just did what we do, everything would be fine?!

what is the problem here? do you have an ethical problem with a person who fights for entertainment? i can't argue with that. that's your moral judgment to make. but that's not what you're doing. you're judging these people because they don't do your art. or some other art that meets with your approval.

again, your opinion. and you have every right to it.


Now for one I do not consider most traditional arts as being insubstantial , the main probelm is that someone cleaves to that art for 8 years or so never gets beyond an inetmediate level and then gets bored and goes off onto something else. Most tradiditional arts do have an end point. So saying that someone has reach the finnishing line of having a black belt, intrinsically, is totally inconsequential. Does this mean they only have a finite amount of knowledge now left for them to encircel their entire art? No it usually means that they have more than ever before to learn as they open onto another level. Its this structure of unfolding which is not present in MMA. However it is also this (as stated above) scenario which leads amny into MMA too.

true. true. it's the same with physics really. in college, i studied physics so intently that the need to read shakespeare, study lao tzu, or play volleyball all kind of evaporated. i mean, i was only in college for four years. (okay, four and a half) there's so much more to be found in physics. so why study anything else? because i was bored with physics? not me, man. not ever.

but education doesn't work like that, does it. in school, we're encouraged to become well rounded. why? logic dictates that if we want to be good at physics, our entire curriculum should be focused on physics. why have liberal arts requirements? why phys ed? why electives, for that matter? surely any rational human being would only select the courses that expanded their knowledge of physics.

but we don't. because not all of life is physics. and because part of educating yourself is making choices. some of those choices will be mistakes for you. (early american poets?! gah!) but you learn from the process.

in the classroom, we encourage students to ask questions, go out and find their own answers, and become a proactive participant in their own education. in martial arts, we want to chalk it up to a short attention span, an insufficient primary art, or some other personal flaw. why? why is that necessary?


stuart b.

[The Willow Sword]

This WHOLE thread is devoid of content,,,im just going with the flow.
OH and in case you did not catch what DILLIGAF means.


Look it up. :p

MRTWS

[Suntzu]

the UFC fighters are products like cereal u buy on the shelf… the braggin and showboatin get u noticed like the Trix rabbit… and if you are good and a shiny person more promoters will book you and you get paid more… the 13-25 y.o.'s want to see it, will pay to see it and the cycle starts all over again... they're just trying to eat... that's the sports entertainment business for you... flash sells... see some remember the name of some flashy losers* just because they was flashy... BAM... product sold...

*I say losers because they lost… but atleast they got in the ring… how many people have the balls to put there training and body out there like that????

[Merryprankster]

I see that your mouth got ahead of your brain again willow.

I dunno about that Sun Tzu. EVERYBODY likes Randy Couture, and he's a regular nice guy without all the flash. I don't know if you could put that shiny head on a Wheaties box though :)

[apoweyn]

willow sword,

another laser beam insight from the guy who NEARLY outsmarted one of my socks.

i could have sworn you used to actually post content to this forum.


stuart b.

[The Willow Sword]

apoweyn: yeah i know ,,i know its disturbing,,,,,"sigh" well i guess when there is a NEED for me to put forth some "content" i will.

i like to joke i like to be sarcastic and i like to be blunt and sharp at times.

i will let you in on a little secret Apoweyn. i could post alot more insight and content if there were individuals other than "kids" and "trolls" here. i have seen this forum go down the Sh!t can in content. so now i treat it as it apparently wants to be treated ,, like a child or a troll.

Try going to the fighters chat sometime and i would love to have decent discussions with people.
sometimes its better to chat rather than to post.


oh and merry prankster: :o


MRTWS

[Merryprankster]

Ah yes. No gatekeeper at the front door. It just dribbles out like a hot vinadloo the next day. Nice that.

[Suntzu]

MP - but that's one in a million… plus he's a GOOD fighter… well I would guess, I really don’t get down with UFC like that… but basically the UFC is character dirven just like WWE or whatever its called this week… that's why the XFL went to hell… the players just wanted to play instead of becoming HE HATE ME( who dropped a gatda mn TD in Philly... i could kick his bit(h azs )... the Girls Gone Wild people wanna sponsor the Dude Gone Wild... the ring girls are gonna wear Cage Rage or Tapout shirts, not GAP ( for every generation )... just wait until they get commercial deals... i doubt they'll be pitchn 1-800-Flowers... "Call this # now and order Frank Shamrock's 'Get 4 inches faster...":D

[Merryprankster]

Good point Sun.

Here's a better question--is marketing bad? I personally don't think this marketing is worse than that of boxing. Or really even pride. Those guys like their characters. I think that it's just that prefight posturing is more accepted as part of a game over there...

[apoweyn]

sun tzu,

true, but the bidness doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of the competitor. look at someone like john mcenroe (sp?). the media played him up to always have a short fuse and an intense, argumentative attitude.

is that true of mcenroe? sure, to a degree, i expect it is. but does he start throwing plates around the kitchen when they're out of parmesan cheese? nah, i doubt it. the media knows that intensity sells, so they'll play up the most obvious attributes of a fighter.

i know i'm not telling you anything you don't already know, mind you. i think it's important, though, to draw a distinction between the individuals competing and the media that surrounds them.


stuart b.

[Suntzu]

No it's not bad… it pays for there training, the ho's like em and wanna be's treat 'em like gods and wish to be them… hell, if adult entertainment inc wantsto pay me to train, wear there stuff and take pics with there stars… fu(kin right… I forgot who started this thread... but they was upset because of WHO was doing the marketing... well dic pumps and half naked women comes with the territory...

[Merryprankster]

Willow, You've been right all the time. You've been handling my disrespectful posts in rather urbane manner, all things considered, and I should probably really rethink my reasons for training.

[Suntzu]

apo - I'm not arguing if there character reflects them… I'm saying the product dictates the character… the product is mean, swollen, screwface fighters… who watches them??? Other fighters, wanna be's and groupies… when u sell a magazine to fighters, wannabe's and groupies, what are they gonna buy??? EAS, Tapout t-shirts( modeled by some braod in a thong ) and a too small Tapout shirt that the groupie is gonna wear to the next event... i guess i should've went off topic with everyone else;) :D

[apoweyn]

willow sword,

that's a bullsh*t copout. can't be bothered to be part of the solution, so be part of the problem? that's just sad.


i will let you in on a little secret Apoweyn. i could post alot more insight and content if there were individuals other than "kids" and "trolls" here.

if you can't beat 'em, lead 'em. brilliant.

while we're sharing secrets, willow sword, know this: there are plenty of people here who refuse to let the trolls and kids get the better of them and still post a lot of content (in addition to being able to chat). if you can't hack that, then that's your deal. but please spare me the condescending, "we brought it on ourselves" routine.

actually, scratch that. i'll spare myself. i'm disappointed to see someone who used to make good points pack it in. but that's your choice to make. now i'm making mine not to waste any more time on your 'chats.'


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

sun tzu,

no, you're absolutely right. couldn't have said it better, actually.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

Sun,

How could we market better? What could we do to educate the audience?

I think the first step would be to get BJJ on the ESPN II Extreme Games coverage. At the beginning, they could offer a visual tutorial about the rules, with constant verbal reinforcement throughout the broadcast.

You reach the target audience, but avoid the sex and some of the attitude.

[The Willow Sword]

MMA (mixed martial arts) such a general term. for All types of martial arts are mixed to a degree. As other posters have written here, i wont get into it.

Marketing is not bad ,,but look what is being marketed,,and to our youth,,who are very angry right now. We have events such as the WWF and Now the UFC promoting and endorsing brutalizing of one another. Our youth sees this and they want to be just like them,,A bully.

Man i tell you if all you can do to make money in this world is FIGHT? Then maybe some of these guys need to go back to school or college or whatever to get a decent paying job and do some good for thier community and country rather than what they are doing now. i know i know dont begrudge a man his living, but what message are you sending forth to those whose minds are impressionable? you are saying "yeah lets go and fight and try to hurt one another so that we can command and earn respect as individuals and atheletes.

Take the NFL for instance,,despite the fact that there is corruption in just about every endeavor in this country,,we have strong good hearted individuals who play football,,entertain the crowd and provide a good role model for children and aspiring youths who want to excel at athletics.

when we look at the martial arts what are we looking at?,,,we are looking at combat,,we are looking at the art of killing someone
or hurting them in order to preserve your life or the life of someone who is in danger. you talk about HONOR and RESPECT,
go talk to some veterans of WAR and see what they have to say about these UFC tournaments and the individuals that go to them. Nam Vets and Gulf war vets that i have spoken with have said it best,,,",until you have death staring you in the face and when you have taken another human life in defense of your life and your country",,all you are doing is playing,,and fantasizing.
In the philosphy surrounding the martial arts we see the same thing said over and over,,and why do people not follow this advice? "these arts are for combat and in defense of ones life and should NOT be used for sport or to do harm to others in a frivolous way". is this my opinion? yes. but it is ALSO the opinions of the masters of old that have seen death and conflict and that have created the systems that we now study ,,improve upon and Bast@rdize and turn to cr@p. So i trust what the old masters have to say. Master ueshiba Morehai said it best. "The best technique is to AVOID combat". and this was a man that killed many in the korean war and some hand to hand.
if you want to test yourself,,,do it in the kwoon or the dojo,,and do it in a serious manner. dont play around and know that you will get hurt at times but also know that the ONLY difference between true training and sparring in the kwoon or dojo and the street? is that in the kwoon we have respect for each other and when we hurt each other we do what we can to help heal it.
how many of you who train in your schools have the knowledge to set a bone if it breaks? to stop bleeding of a nose,,,to work out a cramp? i doubt many have that skill. or to do CPR if someone stopped breathing? i heartalk of how its so cool to be able to kick ass,,,,i think its even cooler when you are able to mend and heal as WELL as kick ass.

MRTWS

[Suntzu]

I like where this is going…

for one fighting is sexy… so the sex is here to stay… altho it shouldn't be as blatent… it has to be another venue… UFC is contaminated… whoelse would by time for a fighting event beside beer, AWMA and ESPN's regular rotation… ESPN would be good… hell they blew up the X-games... Born To Fight had skating outside but no ESPN tho... I would love to see SAN SHOU( OK BJJ too :rolleyes: ;) ) make the BIG's as they say...

but the big ??? Is who's gonna buy the time???

[Merryprankster]

"these arts are for combat and in defense of ones life and should NOT be used for sport or to do harm to others in a frivolous way".

But willow, stories about Lei Tai tournament (vice challenge)matches abound. How do you sqaure this part of the CMA tradition with what you wrote above? In other words, what makes today different than then?

[Suntzu]

as for the audience… for the most part they don’t care about the rules, initially, they just wanns see people beat the hell outta each other… they'll learn the rules, scoring etc and they follow along… but the most important piece is the fighters themselves... they want people they can root for... they wanna know them like them ( or hate 'em )... watch 'em move thru the ranks, develop rivalries, talk smack, be humble and kick azz...

[The Willow Sword]

well today is not the wild wild west,,although there are some who will say differently,, and even then those matches were not condoned by all.

There will always be an element to martial arts that is less desired by the philosophers and the common folk. but as for the warrior poets of the time who experienced the fear of what it was like to live day to day in defense of thier life, i take thier advice to heart and try to Follow it and not make the same mistakes they have made and have admitted in thier writings.

apoweyn: sorry to make you so angry,,,,,

MRTWS

[Suntzu]

OK, off topic here a bit…

combat sports are a part of everyones life in one way or another… some hunt deer ( some hunt other people ), some smack there wife, some watch sports ( most sports have combat applications, even golf ) and if some are watching somebody must be doing the doing... i'm educated have what some would call a good job, alltho i rather it not be my career... but i'm choose to put my body on the line for a combat sport... it's not all kick his azz, kick his azz... but we're MAist and we already know this... you learn about your self... most of the time you like your opponent, at the very least, respect them... and if you dont get hurt you learn something about yourself and go on to improve yourself... for the fighter its more the beating the next guy up... and to get back on topic... those that dont do it still NEED to have that connection and pay big $$$ to watch, yell at the screen and moday morning quaterback...and the fighters need to get paid either by Coors light or GGW…

[apoweyn]

willow sword,

i disagree with a lot of what you say. but that doesn't make me angry. that's the nature of discussion. but you're entirely too intelligent to get away with giving up and spouting nonsense. if you're disgusted with the forum, help fix it. or don't. but for god's sake, don't make it worse.

your apology isn't necessary (but i appreciate it all the same). just help get this thing back on track, yeah?


stuart b.

[BeiKongHui]

My wife and I were discussing ways to lobby ESPN to start showing NHB, K1, Muay Thai, more Shidokan...things of that nature as opposed to the fat mullet-heads breaking boards.
Sure, there's probably not a huge market for it but surely it would draw more people than "creative breaking" or those forms with music things they do. Also, it doesn't have to be UFC or Pride there are plenty of other events they could cover. Anyone have an idea on how to get some momentum for this idea going? Would an online petition make any difference?

[Merryprankster]

Willow, I appreciate what you are saying, but I am clearly missing the intent of your post. I don't understand how it answers the question of why competition was acceptable then and isn't now. What has changed?

OR, are you trying to say that competitions of this sort were never acceptable and that we should rethink ever holding them?

Suntzu--you don't have to appreciate the rules of boxing to appreciate it, or kickboxing. BUT, I have found that grappling intensive sports require a knowledge of the rules, and a basic visual understanding of what say, an ippon is, or a sweep, or a submission. Otherwise, it looks like two people rolling around or hugging each other.

[The Willow Sword]

competition then was accepted and not now. sport games involving fighting have always been prevalent in society,,doesnt mean that they were condoned by everyone. But the competitions noe are actually alot more TAME thatn they were back then when individuals would walk out either dying the next day due to internal injuries or not walking out at all because they were killed.

Healthy,and honorable exhibitions of skill in forms and demonstrations are good,,,,,,somewhere along the line the rivalry and egos of the different schools came about,,i guess with the advent of Marketing", come join our school we are the best and those guys over there suck". then the competition in the arena to see which school was the best insued and then gambling follows after that and then you have a similar situation to what we have today with UFC back then, anly not as dolled up and maybe there is more of a respect rather than rivalry going on,,but as UFC continued to grow it seemed as though the braggards came out of the woodwork spouting off thier sh!t, and challenging each other in grudge matches. totally inappropriate.

i have watched these UFC and no holds barred fights. the only skill and techniques that i have seen are from the gracies,,and a sense of good spirit and honor. but i think where they have failed and created a bad reputation is actually going and competeing in events such as these,,that really serve no purpose other than to brutalize.

MRTWS

[Suntzu]

True, BJJ is not a Joe Shmo friendly sport and honestly wont draw too many sponsors except for like X gi wear or whatever… so your right it would require Joe to get a lil education about the sport… remember Speed Judo??? Just asking… I'm coming at it from a San Shou POV... so we ARE seeing 2 different perspectives... and one is deffinitly more marketable than the other... i cant really say how to market BJJ but i got a squat load for san shou...

[Suntzu]

TWS - I doubt there is a lack of skill in the UFC… tru, some strickers suck but they may have tremendous ground skill and vice versa… and like I said rolling on the ground is not the most exciting thing to watch unless you KNOW whats going on… personally I'd rather watch K-1, but that's not what this thread is about... and just because all they show is the trash talk and dic measuring doesn't mean they are unsportsmanlike and lack honor... they are just showing you the heat of the moment and the sex that sells...

[Merryprankster]

San Shou would easily be marketable for viewers, but MMA wouldn't because of the grappling intensive nature. There's a lot of stuff that goes on on the mat that's pretty cool, but you have to REALIZE it's pretty cool! A throw looks spectacular. A choke and it's slick defense, does not. Neither does working for position.

Willow, two questions :

1. If a person enters UFC or similar events are they automatically fighting for the purpose of brutalization or does that depend on mindset?

2. One of the traditional purposes of the Lai Tei (sp?) tournaments was to determine who and what style was "the best?" How is that mentality different than today's mentality? Or are you arguing that you have to take it in historical context--fighting is unacceptable in today's society, but it wasn't then, so consequently, fighting competitions should be unacceptable as well?

[Suntzu]

BJJ would need a John Madden type to hi=lite the nuainces of the ground game… dude wuth a telestrator and colorful commentary to keep me awake during the slow parts…

isnt san shou spectacular????:D

[The Willow Sword]

what is the prupose of entering the UFC or similar events. are they automatically entering for the purpose of brutalization?
not necessarily,,but that is what they end up doing.

question 2: the mentality seems to be the same. and now that we have media and advertising we can see this mentality permeate the whole of martial arts society here in this country and other countries. "we are the best" "well prove it" "lets meet in the ring and see" what is going on here? an ego fest with a purpose to not promote the precepts that the masters teach us but to rather take these precepts and with a naive and rather "cult" like way perpetuate a mindset unbefitting a school or traditional or non-traditional martial system.

OK so i can guess that the reason why people enter these competitions is to test what they have learned in a semi-controlled environment and to see if they can survive the Gauntlet. my question is "WHY?" what will you ultimatley accomplish by doing this? is it worth your life? is it worth hurting the life of another to see if "you" can?
how arrogantly presumptious to think that by a violent act you can attain ANY sort of enlightement or resolve with yourself.
well you might say" if iam ever in a situation on the street where i might have to use what i have learned to defend myself i want to be able to know that i could sussessfully defend myself"
well let me address that with another question" HOW ON EARTH DO YOU COMPARE WHAT YOU DO IN THE RING WITH WHAT HAPPENS ON THE STREET?
so many uncontrolled factors that change the dynamic of everything, guns knives multiple attackers,,,no medical attention,,,,no RULES.

Thats why i believe that these sport events are frivolous wastes of time. and i truly do not think that these guys who do this are all low lifes,,but as we have seen with individuals such as tank abbot and a few others there IS a low life element that is attracted to that endeavor. and so to with CMA and JMA and TKD and alot of other systems. but isnt it up to the teacher,,the master to take this notion of fighting and show that it is truley NOT to be taken lightly and that one utilizes these arts for self preservation and the defense of those who cannot defend themselves? these are age old precepts that Shaolin apparently followed and others.

what more questions are there?

MRTWS

[fa_jing]

MP - I enjoyed your first post.


Regarding the competition, death matches for no other reason than stylistic rivalry were never a good thing, even though they happened much in the history of Kung Fu. The only justification for violence is when it is provoked, for instance man kills your brother, you kill him. Even then you can get into a vicious cycle of revenge, so people realized there's a better way to live and that's why we have laws and police, even though there are drawbacks, especially when justice is not done by the system and people aren't adequately protected.

As far as sporting-level violence, it is very much debateable. Should we watch a boxing match? We tickle the part of our brain that was once eminantly important, back when there were wild beasts to fight off and barbarian raiders and such. One could make a case that it forms an essential part of our humanity to live vicariously through these artificially created struggles. And, I am willing to admit that I love to watch boxing. But there is a price to be paid - athlete's suffering brain damage, football players becoming paralyzed, kid gets hit in the heart by a baseball and dies. We cannot take joy in these things. Unfortunately there is Yin and Yang in the situation, a dark side to our entertainment.

As long is no one is seriously hurt, it's not a bad thing.
We might now ask the question, would it satisfy our personal need to only see competition in non-violent sports? Such as track & field, for instance? Tennis? Air Hockey?? To some extent, yes...Although we have a primitive, animalistic desire to see the more violent sports. I cannot tell you whether this desire should be aquiesced to or surpressed. There's no question that it forms part of our humanity, whether positive or negative. That's something that is going to be up to you as a reasoning individual and according to your religion and moral outlook.

Sorry if I don't come down clearly on one side or the other with this issue, it is something that I continue to ponder.

[Suntzu]

well, lets face it… people like sports, whether they watch or participate… it's natural, primative even… and people pay be money to be apart of it in there own way… to spectate, sponsor or participate… in YOUR perfect, ideal world we would all sing Kumbayah( or however u spell it ) and practice Tai Chi for health... but this aint it... fighters fight for $$$, fame, ego, to prove something to there daddy, whatever reason... and its all valid... is it worth it??? it is to me and i guess it is to them and it is to the people that watched... is that a good thing... who knows but i'm nobody's judge... but this aint what this thread is about... its about the MARKETING of MMA... now either get in the ring or get out the way!!!!;) :p


I cannot tell you whether this desire should be aquiesced to or surpressed. it cant be… its nature animals hunt, they kill… humans were given a so called more evolved brain but there still is the primal areas that control flinching, blinking, adrenaline responses, etc… we are 'smart' enuff to know that killing is wrong ( except when declared by Congress, but thats another thread ) and decided to quench our primal thirst for blood in sporting events... now i done went and got carried away off topic... sorry...

[Chang Style Novice]

I don't have any problem with sportfighting as long as it is done safely (or as safely as possible) and with good sportsmanship. There are inevitably going to be some pretty unsophisticated people drawn to it, but so what? The world is full of dumb@sses, and nothing's going to change that. It is sort of unfortunate that aiming for the lowest common denominator is the best way to make an @ssload of cash, but I don't see any way to change that either.

I see a lot of good technique in the little MMA I've watched, but considerably less class. Still, there are some classy folks out there, from what I can tell, so it's not a lost cause yet.

I agree with the previous post that said a good, knowledgable commentator would be a HUGE boost for the grappling side of MMA in terms of spectator popularity. I have no idea who that could be, though.

[SevenStar]

My answer to the billboard issue: buy a judo gi. actually, BJJ gi manufacturer's charge extra to have the logos put on there. Being the cheap ******* that I am, I won't pay for it. Who knows why people get them though - may be it makes them feel like they are sponsored or something. :D


"if you want to test yourself,,,do it in the kwoon or the dojo,,and do it in a serious manner. dont play around and know that you will get hurt at times but also know that the ONLY difference between true training and sparring in the kwoon or dojo and the street? is that in the kwoon we have respect for each other and when we hurt each other we do what we can to help heal it."

I see some flaws there. First, you really can't test yourself against people you train with on a regular basis. Even if you go all out, the spirit of the fight is not there, or at least not as present as it is against someone you are less familiar with. Second, in the training hall, you are fighting other students who train in YOUR STYLE. If you are testing yourself, you want to be reassured that you can hold your own against whatever practitioner of whatever style you are faced with. Look what happened when the UFC came about - it opened the world's eyes to grappling. All these TMA that never thought grappling was a threat got a mudhole stomped in them.



"how many of you who train in your schools have the knowledge to set a bone if it breaks? to stop bleeding of a nose,,,to work out a cramp? i doubt many have that skill. or to do CPR if someone stopped breathing? i heartalk of how its so cool to be able to kick ass,,,,i think its even cooler when you are able to mend and heal as WELL as kick ass.

we have a purple belt that is a nurse and works in the ER. Also, we train in a gym, and there are plenty of sports medicine guys there. Also, in judo (at least in my state) you are not allowed to coach judo unless you are CPR certified.

[The Willow Sword]

I see some flaws there. First, you really can't test yourself against people you train with on a regular basis. Even if you go all out, the spirit of the fight is not there, or at least not as present as it is against someone you are less familiar with. Second, in the training hall, you are fighting other students who train in YOUR STYLE. If you are testing yourself, you want to be reassured that you can hold your own against whatever practitioner of whatever style you are faced with. Look what happened when the UFC came about - it opened the world's eyes to grappling. All these TMA that never thought grappling was a threat got a mudhole stomped in them.

"thats why i am attempting to get together a sparring and training group to meet on the weekends and train. as far as my eyes being opened to grappling,,,,my eyes were already open to groundfighting and it seems to me that in the ring ground fighting is king,,,,but on the street,,the gun is king and so is the knife and the bat and the group of multiple attackers. (get my point?)"


we have a purple belt that is a nurse and works in the ER. Also, we train in a gym, and there are plenty of sports medicine guys there. Also, in judo (at least in my state) you are not allowed to coach judo unless you are CPR certified.

"thats good,,i wish that my former school had that,,but the sparring was such that it was never really needed,,for the sparring was real cat and mouse and tame."

MRTWS

[Tigerstyle]

It's all about balance, Willow Sword.

You ask why people would put themselves through such a "brutal" activity for no reason other than serving one's own ego, and as an excuse for "brutalizing" others.

I say don't worry about all that. Just think that all the brutality and ego driving those mindless events gives you a guide to measure how peacful, humble, and mature you really are in comparison. ;)


Yin and yang, TWS. Yin and yang...

[The Willow Sword]

peaceful? sometimes mature? uhh i like to think i am but when i think i get into trouble.

humble: if you say so. i know my shortcomings.

MRTWS

[SevenStar]

"thats why i am attempting to get together a sparring and training group to meet on the weekends and train. as far as my eyes being opened to grappling,,,,my eyes were already open to groundfighting and it seems to me that in the ring ground fighting is king,,,,but on the street,,the gun is king and so is the knife and the bat and the group of multiple attackers. (get my point?)"

all the more reason to know how to grapple. From my experience with streetfights, if multiple attackers and or a club is involved, there is a good chance that you will end up on the ground. with a good knowledge of grappling, you will be better able to get back to your feet.

[fa_jing]

Anybody else get freaked out sometimes by all the violence in Chinese Kung Fu movies? Sometimes the scenes are over-the-top, like c'mon, did the girl have to die too? Then after the whole village has been slaughtered, all the enemies and all but two of the protagonists are lying in pools of blood, the two remaining good guys look around with satisfaction, slap hands and head off to the tune of happy Chinese Music. Dim Sum time!!

S'all right, though, I know it's just a movie. Cartoon violence, almost. It's just wierd how they try to show the justification of violence, it always starts with good people gettin' whacked. Very formulaic.

[SevenStar]

training your hijack tactics, eh?

[Suntzu]

this thang been hi-jacked:rolleyes:

[Internal Boxer]

In reference to the original question I recently picked up a grappling magazine in a shop and thought I would have a quick flick through before I bought it. What a load of rubbish, zero content I put it straight back on the shelf.

My first comp I enetered, it was sad to see all the t-shirts for sale with things like "Vale Tudo - Zombie Nation throw in the shovel before the towel" with a pic of a rotting corpse on the front. And others like "Submission Fighting for the real Warrior". With people actualling buying them and wearing them!!!! I just find it quite sad that people buy into this sh.it.

This macho bull only adds fuel for the self rightious moral crusaders, the kind that point out the flaws in everyone else but cannot even focus on themselves because it easy to find fault in others. These are the guys who "generalize" who tar everyone with the same brush, like anyone who enters such tournies are all egotists. Well whats funny is by constantly imposing their views they are only reaffirming their own ego, in their desire to be right!!! :)

[The Willow Sword]

Read the philosophies of such masters as Ueshiba Moreihai,,
Sun lu Tang,,,,,tri thong dang etc. and tell me what it says about
fighting and combat for sport. as far as my moral crusade,,you nimrod mother FuKKER,,,,,,i was never on a crusade. and puhleez your ego is just as big as everyone elses here.
catch a flaming bag of Sh1t right on your head you fuk choad.



MRTWS

[fa_jing]

Sorry, Seven and Ryu. Not following closely the MMA/UFC thing, I actually have nothing valuable to contribute to the topic and felt left out...Sniff...then I thought Hey! Maybe I can hijack the thread and people will start to post, like it was my thread or something.
:D

[Internal Boxer]

LOL.......Willow mi lad you certainly could do with some anger management, you easily get mad dont you!....big deep breaths now......count to 10.... are you OK now??:D :D

Yes I have an ego just like you, for me tournies are just another way to sharpen skills, a training method if you will, they are not like real fighting but they can help you to cultivate real fighting skills just like any other methods of training ie. sparring for timing awareness spontaneity, push hands for sensitivity, listening etc.

So I cannot see anything wrong, because MMA has the grappling side to it so you can defeat your opponent without causing him any serious injuries through submission, but non grappling sports such as boxing San Sou and Muai Thai are more intentional in causing the opponent harm by pounding their face in.

So I see MMA as a kinder way to test skill without resorting to beating your opponent to a pulp (but obviously it depends on the practitioners intention, if they want to ground and pound then they will I am only speaking from my approach).

What I find more disturbing than the meat heads that are in MMA is your obsession with continually bashing MMA you seem to have such a passion for it, but I never see you posting with the same passion when on other threads talking about san sou or Muai Thai, you do not go on there slagging all who enter such tournies. Your obsession with MMA shows there is some underlying insecurity that compels you to keep slagging MMA whenever you get an opportunity, whats up? have you had your a$$ kicked by an MMA guy, or more likely an MMA girl ....cause there is some underlying fear that you have that shines through your posts like a beacon.;)

[The Willow Sword]

re read my above post.

and to add,,,,,,,you seem to discount what I say and not comment on the philosophies of the masters that i agree with,,that i base my views on.

and NO i have not had my A$$ kicked by a MMA male or female,,,,,but i have had my ass kicked,,,as im sure you have my limey dipSh!t friend.

why not instead of go on the defensive about my views and the masters of olds' views, actually READ and try to Comprehend where the view comes from,,instead of labelling me as a self riteous crusader? have i claimed any mastery to anything,,have i claimed to have the answers to everything,,do i go around spouting off how great i am and how everyone else sucks? do i ?

No i dont.. and never have. but you MMA guys seem to have all the answers and you go into the ring spouting all your sh!t.
why not put on a uniform and carry a rifle and fight for your country instead of fighting for your ego. OR if you dont want to do that then how about putting the brain to good use rather than allowing it to be a punching bag.

im tired of this,,,,,,,,

:o

do what you want to do,,i could care less,,,,DILLIGAF which means Do I Look Like I Give A Fuc&.
but i will post my opinions aand views with the notion that some here understand where i am coming from.

[Internal Boxer]

Yes Willow I bow to your superior wisdom, I am just fool for entering such tournies I have seen the error of my ways, :rolleyes:

During WW2 my grandad was on the Motor Torpedo Boats and was involved with many skirmishes near greece with German destroyers, he saw his friends die. Yet he was a boxer for the Navy. And he does not take any glory in his war time activities because he knows of the futility of war. Re read my post and you will understand my reasons for doing MMA are not to maim and kill my fellow human beings, but to test skill in a controlled environment, and getting my a$$ kicked makes me look at my deficienes its a shame you cannot see yours. But then you like to tar everyone with the same brush dont you. Never mind thats your problem I guess.:)

Live and Let Live

[SevenStar]

"My first comp I enetered, it was sad to see all the t-shirts for sale with things like "Vale Tudo - Zombie Nation throw in the shovel before the towel" with a pic of a rotting corpse on the front. And others like "Submission Fighting for the real Warrior". With people actualling buying them and wearing them!!!! I just find it quite sad that people buy into this sh.it."

I've seen that at TMA tournies also.

[The Willow Sword]

Yeah and you know where you limeys would be with out the good ole USA to protect you ,do you know?

THE SMALLEST FUC&ING COMMUNIST COUNTRY ON THE PLANET.
(kevin kline,,a fish called wanda)

so war is futile but fighting for sport is not?

whatever, jeeves ole pal,,,
:rolleyes:

[Merryprankster]

Hey willow, not to be a nudge, but I AM in the armed services.

[Internal Boxer]

Willow
Mmmm, you really are showing your true colours now, you own words show you up for what you really are!!

keep it up;)

[The Willow Sword]

i commend you for that,,not that you need my commendation.

look guys im tired of going round and round on this issue and i am sure that others are as well.

lets just agree to disagree on this one,,,,,,,i have no hatred for you MMA guys that do these tournaments.
just take into consideration that the actions that you do reflect upon who you are and that the youth of this country look up to you guys as a role model, whether you want to admit it or not.
whether you care or not.

ask yourself this merry who commands more respect,,,a soldier in our united states army or a MMA tournament fighter?

Many respects(except for you internal boxer you limey bast@rd) lol j/k TWS

[tnwingtsun]

This threads got me cracking up!!

I wanna see Gi's with the bikini cat fight videos, P_enis enlargement packages(not that I need one,HAHA!), how to have better sex" in bed videos, etc. etc.!(don't need that one either! HAHAHA!)

Hell,put some "STP","Penzoil","Tide" patches on your Gi,have the promoters git together with the Nascar guys,have a cage in the Infeild and get it on after the race!!!


What ever happened to "Roller derby"?

And where is "Watchman" when ya need him?
:D :rolleyes: :cool: :confused: :eek: ;) :o :)

[Sharky]

it had to happen

[Shadow Dragon]

Agree with Sharky.

It happened to all the previous MA that came into fashion as well.

How many Karate, KF, Ninja mags turned bad once the Arts became too popular.

The few real hardcore practicioners will still be there, just hidden behind the multitude of sheeps let to the slaughter my the McDojo's.

Cheers.

[omegapoint]

The fact of the matter is this, many folks are violent due to societal and familial conditioning. Aggressiveness is the order of the day. Microcosmic representations of the macrocosm abound. Any sport- basketball, soccer, football, hockey, whatever- is just a metaphor for western and/or modern life. You play within a set of rules, there are people judging you from a distance (ex: refs and umpires) who can effect the decision of something based on a singular perspective (one where they ultimately have the final say) and you'll like whether it's realistic, fair or whatnot. This is what we ALL support (or at least the majority). For many, competiton with a perceived enemy or competitor is how we function and what we know. You get what you want.

Living vicariously through some broke gladiator, ain't no new deal peeps. Non-athletic psycopaths or pansy arses in general as well as sadistic and masochistic types are the normal viewing audience for most sporting events. These people watch because they could never do it. Somehow they feel that watching someone perform at an elite physical level gives them hope that they too, if they tried hard enough, could be bad-arse too. After all the participants are only human like them.

Instaed of each man and woman teaching themselves and their kids to be UNIQUE, independent and strong individuals, they teach them selfishness and predatory behavior. People are always saying that life's not fair, but that's just because the folks with no conscience run the world, and that's how they keep it "fair weather" for themselves. That's who we should be questioning and "fighting".

If every person governed themselves, and wasn't so ignorant, lazy and uncreative, the world would be a much better place for everyone to live. The truth is people have never been and never will be armed with these true weapons. That would take the power "base" away, and the world as we know it would begin to be more fair for everyone. Get a clue. It ain't changing soon, and just our talking about this junk keeps it alive that much longer.

It's a dog eat dog world, so be a carnivore. I'll be omnivorous. Evolutionarily it's a better fit and makes me more able to adapt to "change". BTW other than BJ Penn, how many NHB or pro athletes come from opulent backgrounds? Let the garbage dispose of the rabble. Let's destroy that which levels any real human make-believe playing field: our brains! NHB cats are also destroying that which makes them unique, their physical abilities. The rich and powerful will always be smarter I guess, so isht ain't changing.

You kids go out there and fight or come to Abu Dhabi to fight, we'll stand back, out of harms way and bet on you!!! You stupid dogs, hahaha!

[tnwingtsun]

Now thats sad and the nature of the beast.


There are those in Abu Dhabi that choose to put others in harms way thus sealing their own fates as well.


Your point is well taken,nice post.

[SevenStar]

"NHB cats are also destroying that which makes them unique, their physical abilities."

:confused:

If anything, they are furthering their physical abilities. If you are talking about injuries, they are usually minor. I've seen worse injuries in judo than in nhb.

[Merryprankster]

That depends willow, is the soldier a rapist? A murderer? Is he doing drugs? Is he a wife beater? A child molester? What if he's all five?

Is the MMA fighter a loving father? A good husband? Clean and sober? Does he spend time with his children? Is he part of a community outreach program that teaches how to set goals and achieve them? What if he's all five?

Which one should I respect more?

[Internal Boxer]

Merry I would not bother wasting your time in answering Willow he cannot help his prejudiced bigoted attitude, I feel sorry for the guy.:)

[LiteBlu]

LOL at Willow Sword getting pimped online!


That's some funny $hit, boy!
LMFAO!

[apoweyn]

good grief willow sword.

i'm familiar with the philosophies of morihei ueshiba. and i'm relatively certain that he never advocated "meeting force with retaliatory use of the term 'f*ckchoad.'" nor did he subscribe to the practice of taking potshots at a person's nation of origin simply because he disagreed with them.

(by the way, i'm a limey, thank you very little.)

if you're going to call upon the authority of the masters, you could at least make a reasonable stab at emulating them.

nobody's expecting you to walk on water here, pal. they're just expecting you to acknowledge that perhaps you don't know everything about these MMA guys. that you don't know the sum total of their character. nor did the masters you cited. that you can't claim, without error, that they're interested purely in ego gratification.

you say you know your limitations. yet i've not once seen you illustrate that. i'm not expecting you to say you're wrong. you're not wrong. you have an opinion.

some people in MMA have egos. some people in copyediting have egos. some people in stamp collecting have egos. but some people simply have a question. "how good am i?" that's not a question that necessarily gets answered sparring with the people you know and train with. people with whom you're friendly. people who are less motivated to beat you than they are to go home injury free. it's a question that gets answered in direct competition with someone highly qualified AND motivated to beat you.

now perhaps the masters of old lived in an environment that provided more answers to that question. perhaps they couldn't help but have that question answered for them, under unpleasant circumstances. but nowadays, wars don't tell you much about personal combat. streetfights are frowned upon. and yet the basic question remains. "how good am i?"

now you can agree or disagree with how these people find their answers, but the very least you could do is credit them a little with the will to ask the question.


stuart b.

[The Willow Sword]

Master Ueshiba Morehei " no one can take away my strength siNce i do not use it. the best technique is to AVOID combat."
read what you will into that but i think it states his frame of mine quite clearly.

and as for the limeys here, i quoted from a movie(a fish called wanda) you should watch it. its funny:D

Not a bigot,,not a racist. anyway on to the subject at hand.

as far as me being "pimped" think whatever you want:rolleyes:

the proff of my views are in what i have seen of these tournaments,,,they are brutal,,,,they serve no other purpose other than to be brutal,,they entertain an audience that gets off on being brutal. you guys seem to be real real defensive and trying to justify what you are doing by telling e that i am full of crap and that i dont know what i am talking about.

how good am i? what a question. that seems like ego driven to me.
and yes i have an ego as well,,,we all do. but my ego does not extend to the notion that i can kick ass or "how good am i"

the debate here and the original question posed is "what the hell is happening to MMA?" well the amswer is simple.
it has,in my opinion been tainted by those individuals who seek to capitolize on the entertainment industry,,satisfy thier urge and need to go out and brutalize themselves as well as others who have a like mind.

to ME MMA is an evolvement of the arts of old. taking the best of the best of every technique and making it an effective way to defend yourself in these days and times. but what seems to not have happened is the philosophy and the teachings behind these combative arts have not followed with the creation of MMA.
now it has become a sport of Bullies and over bearing testosterone.

i site Osensei Morehei for HE alone has been my inspiration for wanting to get into the martial arts. i have read his work extensively and if any one of you are looking for a good sound philosophy on how to live your life and be a peaceful martial artist rather than be a bully and a ego driven brutalizer then i suggest that you read his works.
i actually like the MMA's just not the way it is being portrayed.
this need to want to test yourself against another for the soul purpose of "am i good enough".
Hey ,,its a view that i have (16 yrs have i been in the martial arts) i think that accounts for something here.
i can be brash at times,,,sharp words,,anger,,,,jokester,,,,clown,,,,,serious at times and not. i apologize for the blunt and sharp remarks that i have posted,,,,but i will not reverse myself in the issue here. its what makes for great debate and conversations.

mrtws

[Suntzu]

the debate here and the original question posed is "what the hell is happening to MMA?" well the amswer is simple. it has,in my opinion been tainted by those individuals who seek to capitolize on the entertainment industry,,satisfy thier urge and need to go out and brutalize themselves as well as others who have a like mind.

about time...

[The Willow Sword]

i DID kind of hijack the thread. oops:eek:

MRTWS

[Suntzu]

;) :D

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
Master Ueshiba Morehei " no one can take away my strength siNce i do not use it. the best technique is to AVOID combat."
read what you will into that but i think it states his frame of mine quite clearly.

I agree. It does describe Ueshiba's frame of mind quite nicely. But when you counter arguments by shouting 'f*ckchoad' and waxing superior about World War 2, I fear that the quote above hardly states your frame of mind very convincingly.


and as for the limeys here, i quoted from a movie(a fish called wanda) you should watch it. its funny:D

I agree again. It's very funny. Though you may want to bear in mind that Kevin Kline's character is not exactly a brain trust in that film.

Not a bigot,,not a racist. anyway on to the subject at hand.

Nope. Neither of those things. But not a yielding reed in the wind either (or some other apropos aikido analogy). Walk the walk, friend.

as far as me being "pimped" think whatever you want:rolleyes:

I don't think I said that, so I'll leave that to whomever did.


the proff of my views are in what i have seen of these tournaments,,,they are brutal,,,,they serve no other purpose other than to be brutal,,they entertain an audience that gets off on being brutal. you guys seem to be real real defensive and trying to justify what you are doing by telling e that i am full of crap and that i dont know what i am talking about.

Here's where we start to get into trouble. "They serve no other purpose... " isn't proof. It's opinion. And it always will be. That said, I've said repeatedly that it's a perfectly valid opinion. I disagree with it. But you have a right to it. You even have a right to express your opinions on the competitors. Likewise, we have the right to debate it with you.

Yes, they are brutal. But it is the contention of many here that they do indeed serve a purpose beyond entertaining an audience that gets off on being brutal. More on that later.


how good am i? what a question. that seems like ego driven to me.
and yes i have an ego as well,,,we all do. but my ego does not extend to the notion that i can kick ass or "how good am i"

Of course it's an ego-driven question. Most questions involving the word "I" are ego driven. But it comes from precisely the same impulse that causes us to test for belt/sash rankings, spar in class, or start martial arts in the first place. If what you were looking for was purely enlightenment, then why study martial arts? Why not religion? Philosophy? Why engage in a practice that, by its design, brings you into direct conflict with others? (Don't bother with the aikido rhetoric. I know their stance on conflict. But it's still, at its core, an approach for engaging and then dispersing conflict.)

If you're engaged in a pasttime that is so thoroughly wrapped up in the concept of conflict, then the question "how good am I?" is an essential one to be able to answer. Not purely for ego gratification. Partly for logistical reasons. You don't face off with someone in the sparring class without, on some level, asking the question, "how good am I?"

If you absolutely knew the answer, you wouldn't bother. I know I can't fly. So I'm not in the habit of trying. And if you absolutely didn't care about the answer, you wouldn't bother either. That's part of the definition of not caring.

Every time you throw a kick, spar, hit the heavy bag, etc. you're looking to answer the question. "How good am I?" Without it, there's no grounds for improvement. Then there's no cause for practice. And no martial arts. For the MMA fighters, it's a fairly natural extension.


the debate here and the original question posed is "what the hell is happening to MMA?" well the amswer is simple.
it has,in my opinion been tainted by those individuals who seek to capitolize on the entertainment industry,,satisfy thier urge and need to go out and brutalize themselves as well as others who have a like mind.

Now, this I can't argue with. Many advocates of MMA are bothered by the 'tainting' of advertising, spectatorship, etc. That's why Ryu brought this up in the first place, right? But you're all too willing to toss the baby out with the bathwater. In your opinion, it's not a baby at all. And that's your right.


to ME MMA is an evolvement of the arts of old. taking the best of the best of every technique and making it an effective way to defend yourself in these days and times. but what seems to not have happened is the philosophy and the teachings behind these combative arts have not followed with the creation of MMA.
now it has become a sport of Bullies and over bearing testosterone.

So let's ditch the whole thing. Far better than trying to fix it, right? Same approach you decided to take with KFO. It's broken, so let's just make pointless posts and treat KFO the way it 'wants' to be treated. Please. Again, that's a copout. You're right that the general public's view of martial arts is screwy. Whether they believe us all to be Mr. Miyagi-like saviors or tattoed brutes, the basic problem remains. We're caricatures. And we'll remain so as long as we stubbornly refuse to teach people otherwise.

In the case of the Miyagi complex, the problem is that we buy into it ourselves. And we withdraw, thereby preserving the mystique. In the case of MMA, the promoters and vendors play to the lowest common denominator. So in each case, the depiction the public gets (and in time, wants) is this two-dimensional farce.


i site Osensei Morehei for HE alone has been my inspiration for wanting to get into the martial arts. i have read his work extensively and if any one of you are looking for a good sound philosophy on how to live your life and be a peaceful martial artist rather than be a bully and a ego driven brutalizer then i suggest that you read his works.

Many of us have.


i actually like the MMA's just not the way it is being portrayed.
this need to want to test yourself against another for the soul purpose of "am i good enough".

Then why? Why else do it? Can you provide one rationalization that doesn't come back to that same root question?


Hey ,,its a view that i have (16 yrs have i been in the martial arts) i think that accounts for something here.

Yes, it does. But I've been in for 18 years. That hasn't stopped you from talking to me as if I'm a bit thick.


i can be brash at times,,,sharp words,,anger,,,,jokester,,,,clown,,,,,serious at times and not. i apologize for the blunt and sharp remarks that i have posted,,,,but i will not reverse myself in the issue here. its what makes for great debate and conversations.

It does make for great debate, yes. What it doesn't make for is an honest search for answers. You've already decided "not to reverse myself." So why debate?

Entertainment. You find it entertaining. You're entertained by the conflict. It appeals to you on some level. That's what prompts you to say "f*ckchoad" when you could say "live and let live" the way Ueshiba might.

We're all interested in the idea of conflict, which is why we're all engaged in a study of the nature of conflict.


Stuart B.

mrtws [/B][/QUOTE]

[Merryprankster]

the proff of my views are in what i have seen of these tournaments,,,they are brutal,,,,they serve no other purpose other than to be brutal,,they entertain an audience that gets off on being brutal. you guys seem to be real real defensive and trying to justify what you are doing by telling e that i am full of crap and that i dont know what i am talking about.

No we don't. We get a little upset that you seem to think you can read our minds, and then tell us we MUST be wrong about what WE think/feel as to why we compete. I think that's reasonable. What if I told you the motivation you have for sex is that you like the way it makes you feel you have power over women because of the penetration aspect, and you enjoy thinking of them as dirty? I have a feeling you'd disagree. What would then be your response if I told you "Nope, you're wrong...the reasons I listed are the reasons YOU like sex."


how good am i? what a question. that seems like ego driven to me.

Willow, I ask you one question--who do you practice Kung Fu for?

[The Willow Sword]

Apoweyn" you draw up some good points, and i respect the way in which it is presented. note: dont beat my "****choad" comment too much. we all have used it at some point.;)


merry prankster: i practice kung fu for me and defense of my life. not for the arena ,,not for the ring,,,, there is a difference between what you do for sport and what i do for self. i do not wish to test myself in that manner. in the kwoon is all the testing i need. if i am confronted on the street(which i have been in the past) i rely on what i have been taught and what i have done in sparring training. now some would say that is not enough,,some say that you NEED to get into a scrap in order to see if what you have been learning is worth the time and trouble. and it would seem that this is a good ideal to have. HOWEVER, i do not go out and look for the fight, i do not wish to,
why would i want to do that? i have better things to do with my time. besides out on the street the dynamic is different then that of the ring, in the ring there is control there are rules, just as there is in the kwoon. i guess the difference that i see in sparring in the kwoon as oposed to the ring is that you are not out to take the guy out,,but it is in your mind. you control yourself to the degree that allows you to be a compassionate human being. can this taint the street confrontation and get you killed? could be ,,if your training regiman in the kwoon is cat and mouse and not practical. there is always a part of yourself that you hold back and control until the monent at which you "let the tiger loose" and from what i have been taught and what i have read and what i have experienced,,,you do NOT let the tiger loose in a frivolous manner.(such as with the mma tourneys and ufc matches) save it for the real confrontation,,when your life is in danger,,REAL danger. trust YOURSELF that you could defebd yourself properly. if you have any doubt in your mind about what you might be capable of. well,,,,,we all have that doubt.
but i am not going to go and look for the fight,,,for then i become the aggressor, i learned that when i fought Reemul. i was the bad guy i was the ego driven blowhard that couldnt just let it go. i have since changed the way i look at sparring and fighting. when i spar,,it is serious but not brutal like i am letting the tiger loose. that i save,,for when i truly need it.
hopefully this will answer some questions that you have about why i feel the way i do and why i speak out against these types of tournaments.
its like in sparring,,when i have taught people i say spar serious but spar controlled. in the kwoon,,we hit we kick we test ourselves there,,in the controlled environment and we do this so that we do not have to go out and do it on the street or the cagematch. there IS a difference.
in MMA the testing ground should stay in the school. these are not frivolous endevors or kids playing around. why treat it as such when you go to the ring to pit yourself against another person and hurt them or you get hurt by them? are they your enemy? NO but you treat them as such when you wildly attack them in a ferocious manner. its a grand contradition to step into a ring with the notion that you respect the other person then you
launch out and drive his head in to the mat, thats not respect,,thats not honor thats brutality. whats the difference when you are in the kwoon,,the difference is ,,,you dont brutalize.

MRTWS

[apoweyn]

willow sword,

fair enough. if you agree to stop talking down to those who don't share your precise ideals, i'll stop pointing it out when you fall short of them. deal?


stuart b.

[The Willow Sword]

to stop talking down of mine;)

MRTWS

[Suntzu]

OK OK OK... everyone agrees... now just get in the ring and beat the crap outta each other... sheesh:mad: :rolleyes: :p :D

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
to stop talking down of mine;)

i haven't talked down about your views willow sword. you know that.


stuart b.

[dre]

I have just read this entire thread. I have read some very well thought out an intuitive replies. I've also read some crap.

I agree almost entirely with Merry's points. This isn't the first time for that though , he's also got a good head for weapons fighting if I remeber right :)

And a little personal reaction of mine to commericialisim in MMA :

Yesterday, I actually had some of the same thoughts about the commerical status of MMA when reading "Fightsport" "Grappling" and "Xtreme -somthingorother".

All of which were quite dissapointing to me. I was not impressed byt the ***** enlargment ads that extolled that ***** enlargement was better for you and "For everyone".

I have also noticed the general label of MMA type events as "low class" or "low brow". I don't think this is right - although it is seemin gto go the way of Pro Wresling - media is leading us to this desination.

Also , previously (2 or more yers ago) I have placed very little value in the so called "Wu De" or martial ethics. I'm beggining to see why it exists , the problem is that "Wu De" seems to be absent from lots of MMA , which just makes all Fighters/martial Artists ,look like trashy losers. Instead of good sport or competiton , they advertise gutterfights. Instead of some kind of unity between various MA's (at least in competiton) we get "BJJ + MT = 0wnZ0rs". This makes everyone look bad.

As far as "***** enlargement" etc, they (MMA Media) should not allow refuse in their magazines, lest they begin to look like the trash they advertise. When those kind of things are shown next to fighters/events , people begin to subconsiously link the two, which can ruin everything.

Moreover, style-bashing IS , I gaurntee you, alive and well in BJJ schools. More so than most. Is this "Wu De"? Absolutly not. MMA media and some instructors encourage this.

I myself had considered going to a BJJ school , I'm not anymore. I will not be even passingly affiliated with that kind of stuff. Becides, I wouldn't look any good in a speedo.

[Shadow Dragon]

Hi All.

Personally, I would not judge a MA by it's publications.
Seen too many good mags go to the dogs as the focus of interest changed.

Most of the good mags start of as "hardcore" done by stylists for stylists.

As time goes by and editing staff starts to change as well as the publication volume starts to grow advertisement starts to play a role to cover additional costs like color printing, paying for part-time writers, shipping, distribution, etc.

Personally, I would prefer more of a Newsletter type with no Ads, in B/W do a filly-fledged magazine.
But those are unrealistic in a commercial way.

There are a few good Online E-zines out that are e-mailed to subscribers.
Low overhead, still in colour with pics & only style related or no ads in the publication.

They usually are done in PDF Format.

Cheers.

[scotty1]

"Becides, I wouldn't look any good in a speedo."

I hear you bro.

I think they would produce an arse-hair mustache of quite a large size.

Willing to give it a go though. :)

[dre]

Nah, I think I just don't have the stones to go out there essencially undressed in front of 10,000 people and fight.

At least with Judo they let you keep your clothes on :)

[ArrowFists]

The next "fad" Martial Art is going to be Capoeira.

As for MMA, it has always been a part of Martial Arts, and it always will.

[sweaty_dog]

Tito Ortiz, the "brutal psycho" who is the light heavyweight champion of the UFC, organizes toy drives for underprivileged children and sent personal notes to the kids of some of his adult fans for their birthdays. I have met a lot of lesser known guys that were friendly and helpful and would help even the most hopeless beginner train.

I would like to know why this is so much less worthwhile than charging people 15 dollars an hour for a few pieces of a form. I have done enough martial arts to know that selfishness, delusion, egotism and greed are far from uncommon in both traditional and modern styles. If we were all so idealistic and pure we would be feeding the homeless or digging wells in Africa, not trying to show how tough/enlightened we are in the kwoon, the gym or the internet. Don't even start with that "I like to help people by saving them from attackers" rubbish either, unless you are a cop or a guardian angel.

This is not an attack on TMA's just a reality check for people who think their excrement is odorlessless. I agree that MMA is often marketed in a trashy way but then again, the people who appreciate heart and good technique will go anyway, it's just a matter of filling some extra seats with the "lowest common denominator", people who just want to see someone get beaten up.

[Shadow Dragon]

Sweaty_Dog.

I agree with you.

Pretty much encountered the same attitude from outsiders when I was still riding for my Motorbike Club.
Everybody thought we were rough and tough because some dumb asses gave the whole lot a bad rap.

Cheers.

[Merryprankster]

i practice kung fu for me

Then, ultimately, there is no difference between what we do, from an ego perspective--one is just as much of an ego trip as the other--or alternately, one is as equally egoless as the other.

As this is the lynchpin of your argument, the rest collapses.

[dre]

I would like to know why this is so much less worthwhile than charging people 15 dollars an hour for a few pieces of a form

Whoever said it wasn't. I would go to see ether event.

I have done enough martial arts to know that selfishness, delusion, egotism and greed are far from uncommon in both traditional and modern styles. If we were all so idealistic and pure we would be feeding the homeless or digging wells in Africa, not trying to show how tough/enlightened we are in the kwoon, the gym or the internet. Don't even start with that "I like to help people by saving them from attackers" rubbish either, unless you are a cop or a guardian angel.

So the logic there is that since we have all done something egotstic/jerky in our lives we are procluded from criticisim of Egotisim/Jerkiness? Only holyer-than-thou semi-Saints have the right to look at others with criticisim in mind? Maybe I'm not some gaurdian angel or cop or Kungfu Cowboy, but that dosen't stop me from being annoyed by things that are rude or trashy - which MMA is starting to get a reputation for.

This is not an attack on TMA's just a reality check for people who think their excrement is odorlessless. I agree that MMA is often marketed in a trashy way but then again, the people who appreciate heart and good technique will go anyway, it's just a matter of filling some extra seats with the "lowest common denominator", people who just want to see someone get beaten up.

Do you know what I am sick of? The argument that MMA should ignore it's growing bad reputation for immaturity and lack of respect becuase TMA also falls prey to the same ills (allbeit at a much lower level). I've yet to go into the TMA class that can even hope to match the bluster and swagger of a good, self-ashured BJJ class.

As far as low demnominators go, why not just advertise it as what it is - MMA. Not street fights or reality or whatever. That might not raise public opinion, but it would be being more honest about whats really going on.

[Braden]

"I've yet to go into the TMA class that can even hope to match the bluster and swagger of a good, self-ashured BJJ class."

I have.

[Tigerstyle]

I have also.

[rogue]

Do you know what I am sick of? The argument that MMA should ignore it's growing bad reputation for immaturity and lack of respect becuase TMA also falls prey to the same ills (allbeit at a much lower level). I've yet to go into the TMA class that can even hope to match the bluster and swagger of a good, self-ashured BJJ class.
Ever read the stuff that gets posted on the WC, Internal and Mantis forums? I've been to a few BJJ classes and I've seen very little bluster and swagger, and when I did the person doing it had better be ready to back it up.;)

[Tigerstyle]

"So the logic there is that since we have all done something egotstic/jerky in our lives we are procluded from criticisim of Egotisim/Jerkiness? Only holyer-than-thou semi-Saints have the right to look at others with criticisim in mind? Maybe I'm not some gaurdian angel or cop or Kungfu Cowboy, but that dosen't stop me from being annoyed by things that are rude or trashy - which MMA is starting to get a reputation for."

dre,
I think you may be missing the point of his post. sweaty_dog is saying that bullies, jerks, out-of-control egos, etc. are universal. No MA, or any other group, exclusively hosts a majority of the people listed above.

If some jerk goes into a kung fu class, chances are he'll be a jerk that does kung fu. There is a chance that the teacher, the students or some experience in that school can change him so that he is less of a jerk, but the same can happen in a BJJ school.

Style-bashing wasn't invented at BJJ schools, and it definitely is not only seen in BJJ/MMA schools.

Also, I learned to be a good person from my parents. I was a good person before I started learning kung fu, and I'm still a good person after I started learning BJJ. Both schools exposed me to things that can help me be a better person, and some things that can make me a not-so-good person.

[sweaty_dog]

My point, as Tigerstyle put very well, is that in all fields of human endeavour there are jerks. MMA just attracts a slightly different type of jerk to kung fu and other TMA.

My other point is, why the hell do you care whether MMA is trashy? eminem is trashy, but I don't have to go to his concerts so I don't.

Also, my BJJ class doesn't bash other styles nearly as much as some kung fu schools I've been to. The only styles they really care much about are Judo, Japanese jiu jitsu and wrestling. The few idiots that come online to trash other MAs are a very small minority.

I could get a whole lot more personal about all that "bluster and swagger" nonsense, but I'd rather keep this civil.

[dre]

Rouge :

"Ever read the stuff that gets posted on the WC, Internal and Mantis forums? I've been to a few BJJ classes and I've seen very little bluster and swagger, and when I did the person doing it had better be ready to back it up."

A different kind of bluster I think. Some of those people bluster for the reason that their arts are too oftern steriotyped as weak - patherically weak with fools as practitioners .The bluster and swagger as an exercise to try to inflated their already dead repuatition. I say this as someone who does Mantis. I don't think its' weak or pathetic, but most people do.

BJJ hasn't been a likeable expericne for me so know that I am jaded towards it and it's practitioners. Macho meatheads characterizes the ones I know. I am not willing to let go of that until I see evidence in quatity to indicate otherwise.

Ty (if I may call you that) :

"sweaty_dog is saying that bullies, jerks, out-of-control egos, etc. are universal. No MA, or any other group, exclusively hosts a majority of the people listed above."

I don't think I beleve that. Go to the OT or Sherdog and say you do Kungfu , no, wait, better, say you do Tai Chi. See your repsonces. Then , go to , I dunno, some Karate or Judo or Tai Chi site and tell them you do BJJ. See your responces.

"If some jerk goes into a kung fu class, chances are he'll be a jerk that does kung fu. There is a chance that the teacher, the students or some experience in that school can change him so that he is less of a jerk, but the same can happen in a BJJ school."

Agreed. But some BJJ teaches encourage the BJJ RULZ theory. Or at least do nothing to encourage respect of others. Also, you can't discout the media. BJJ is often advertised as Badass, so , you're gonna get lost of badass students. Where as Tai Chi is often advertised as health anf Balance, so you'll get lots of health nuts/Fitness addicts. Which group will have more disrespectfull jerks, you tell me? The Media is a HUGE factor. If the the Media says you have to be a Badass to be cool, you'll do it. Whether you realize it or not.

Dog :

"My point, as Tigerstyle put very well, is that in all fields of human endeavour there are jerks. MMA just attracts a slightly different type of jerk to kung fu and other TMA."

I agree.

"My other point is, why the hell do you care whether MMA is trashy? eminem is trashy, but I don't have to go to his concerts so I don't."

A few reasons, I say it is increasing in it's trash factor when I don't think it has to. I like to see/watch MMA, I don't want to see it go in that direction as a "Fan" so to speak. And also, it it gets really bad people might tend to see all MA'ists as a buch of rejects, which would be a bad thing.

"Also, my BJJ class doesn't bash other styles nearly as much as some kung fu schools I've been to. The only styles they really care much about are Judo, Japanese jiu jitsu and wrestling. The few idiots that come online to trash other MAs are a very small minority."

Explain further. What do you mean by "some schools", "the only ones they care about". All I got is crumbs over here , but no food.
And "nearly as much". My school don't bash at all , nether of them. This is less about martial arts, and more about manners.

[Braden]

"A different kind of bluster I think."

A psych prof of mine once remarked that people tend to judge their own actions in terms of the situation they are in, and judge other's actions in terms of characteristics of that other. Just food for thought - it may be a useful exercise to try reversing this 'mechanism' and see how it affects your outlook.

"BJJ hasn't been a likeable expericne for me so know that I am jaded towards it and it's practitioners."

This sounds like a very honest statement. Reconsider it, in light of the above, and it might give you a new outlook on the situation.

"Go to the OT or Sherdog and say you do Kungfu , no, wait, better, say you do Tai Chi."

What you'll find is alot of people ignoring you, alot of people ridiculing you, alot of people thinking you're trolling them, and a handfull of people taking you seriously.

"Then , go to , I dunno, some Karate or Judo or Tai Chi site and tell them you do BJJ."

Ditto.

"But some BJJ teaches encourage the BJJ RULZ theory."

And an awful lot of kungfu (or whatever) teachers encourage the 'kungfu (or whatever) RULZ' theory.

"If the the Media says you have to be a Badass to be cool, you'll do it. Whether you realize it or not."

Even if this was true, then you've made a self-fullfilling prophecy. If people in BJJ classes are *******s because everywhere you go, you hear people associate BJJ with being an ******* -> what effect are you having on the situation by stating BJJ is associated with *******s? In other words, you would be part of the cause of the very problem you're complaining about.

[Xebsball]

MMA scum

[dre]

"A psych prof of mine once remarked that people tend to judge their own actions in terms of the situation they are in, and judge other's actions in terms of characteristics of that other. Just food for thought - it may be a useful exercise to try reversing this 'mechanism' and see how it affects your outlook."

Please expand on this. I do not bluster - I know I would be blown out of the water by many , many practitioners of CMA and BJJ. I don't see your meaning, please make it clearer to me.

"This sounds like a very honest statement. Reconsider it, in light of the above, and it might give you a new outlook on the situation."

I am trying to say things as I see them , which does not mean they actually are that way , but only they just apear that way to me. Part of this is admitting my own bias and prejudice, and telling everyone that I do not claim what I say as bible-truth.

Generally I am a very honest person. The jury is still out as to whether this is a good thing , becuase if someone asks my opinion, I am likely to give it fully and honestly.

"What you'll find is alot of people ignoring you, alot of people ridiculing you, alot of people thinking you're trolling them, and a handfull of people taking you seriously. "

I don't know about this, maybe we should stop talking and start experimenting. . . . I don't mean march into sherdog and start a topic "TAI CHI 4 EVA!!!!" , but relpy to a few post and slowly work Tai Chi in there. Likewise for BJJ, don't goin in and start a "BJJ RULZ!" thread. Just slowly work it in there that you do BJJ and have info for the board. I am also not saying adopt an impolite attitude- the test is to see wether or not you are attacked, not to provoke yourself.

Also, I don't think Sherdog/OT gets a lot of true blue TMA trolls, since they are the ones sending out so many themselves. I remeber a topic " The Only effective systems" , a thread from OT, everyoen was agreeing with him that MT, BJJ and Krav Magra "rulz". I didn't hear ONE dissenter. Not ONE. Could you get away with that here? No. Someone would speak up.

Now, if a BJJ'er (acting nicely) goes to a primarily TMA site (there are a few BJJ'ers/x-trainers here) they will be warmly greeted most of the time, becuase they have infromation of value that most people have little knowledge of (ground). I don't think Iv'e seen a lynching of a BJJ'er on a TMA board, but Iv'e seen it on a BJJ board.

"And an awful lot of kungfu (or whatever) teachers encourage the 'kungfu (or whatever) RULZ' theory. "

Maybe, but CMA is small (in student #) compared to almost every MA. What we do really dosen't make a dent on any other MA , being so small. Whereas BJJ has the megaphone, and get more publicity. Liu He Ba Fa never had it so good.

"Even if this was true, then you've made a self-fullfilling prophecy. If people in BJJ classes are *******s because everywhere you go, you hear people associate BJJ with being an ******* ->"what effect are you having on the situation by stating BJJ is associated with *******s? In other words, you would be part of the cause of the very problem you're complaining about."

Nono , I think you;ve got my theory a little wierd. The thing is that BJJ is advertised as Badass. Badasses see this and think "Hey, I am badass , I should try BJJ!". So, the BDAS quotient of BJJ goes up, due to media advertising , not due to forum posters. I am not saying BDAS is good, quite the opposite, I am saying that it can be a problem for the art.

[Braden]

"Please expand on this."

As per usual, I was just rambling.

If I wanted to apply it to this situation, I might note that you agree TMAists (the group you identify with more) bluster, but that they have a good reason for it (they do it because of the situation they've been put in), whereas MMAists (the group you see as Other) bluster, but they do it because they are blusterfull (this is evidence to you of them possessing fundamentally a negative characteristic). Notably, it seems like you identify the same behavior in two groups, but conclude different things from this identification; perhaps based on your... er.. identification... with one of the groups.

"I don't know about this, maybe we should stop talking and start experimenting."

The 'experiment' has been going on for years. I wasn't speaking hypothetically, but from experience. Stickgrappler, for example, has a page of highlights from the UG which includes a good proportion of TMA (including taiji!) discussion. There are still threads in UG-proper archives relating to push hands. Check the JKD forum.

On the other end of things, look at this forum and how the treat each new member who is an MMAist or BJJer.

"I didn't hear ONE dissenter. Not ONE. Could you get away with that here? No. Someone would speak up."

I'm not sure what thread specifically you're referring to. If you visited these forums now, you'd see, for example, an extraordinarily heated debate over the relative effectiveness of Judo and BJJ. Certainly quite a bit of dissent there. Although inspired by recent events, this is a long-standing issue on these forums. The efficacy of savate is another. Ditto silat and kali. Go to Inosanto's forums and look at the HUGE debate regarding 'aliveness and dead patterns.' It's on the UG and everywhere else too. So I'm not sure what you're referring to in specific, but I can certainly point you to alot of dissent on those forums. And the same here.

"I don't think Iv'e seen a lynching of a BJJ'er on a TMA board"

We mustn't be reading the same forums... although I presume you read THIS one, which has featured threads asking as nice people as MerryPrankster and Knifefighter to be banned for being offtopic; nevermind reactions to less diplomatic posters. I'm not sure where to direct you on this account, as you're likely to find a thread that's an example of this on every archived page of threads.

"Maybe, but CMA is small (in student #) compared to almost every MA."

Tai Chi is HUGE if you include it. Wing chun is also quite popular. If you include Jun Fan/JKD on that... I'm not sure your statement is particularly accurate any more.

Even so... by what logic do you conclude that being less populous makes having a bad attitude more acceptable?

"So, the BDAS quotient of BJJ goes up, due to media advertising , not due to forum posters."

Popular media is just as swayed (if not more so) by undercurrents of popular opinion than by formal, drafted and paid advertising. Actually, yeah, way way more so.

[SevenStar]

"sweaty_dog is saying that bullies, jerks, out-of-control egos, etc. are universal. No MA, or any other group, exclusively hosts a majority of the people listed above."

I don't think I beleve that. Go to the OT or Sherdog and say you do Kungfu , no, wait, better, say you do Tai Chi. See your repsonces. Then , go to , I dunno, some Karate or Judo or Tai Chi site and tell them you do BJJ. See your responces.


I got an experiment for you. Actually go to a class. the bjj guys there will be respectful. Many of the CMA guys I know look down on bjj, saying that it is a "lesser system" than CMA. I know a few TKD and JMA guys with that attitude, but it's mainly the CMA. They have chi and forms, and weapons and they think that their style is the ultimate. Here's the other thing I've noticed though - they don't really fight. they do point fighting but have never fought full contact, and many have never had a real fight.

There's something real humbling about a good arse whooping. those that don't fight say "well, if he tried to double leg, I'd just do this" or"I wouldn't let someone get that close to me" but they've never been in the situation, so of course they oversimplify it. The BJJ guys (and the TMA that fight) no better. They don't care what style you do, if you can kick arse with it, they respect it. When I started bjj, the bjjers were like "what's kung fu like?" how do they deal with x technique?" they were all ears for my responses, and never knocked any of it. When some of the CMA I know find out I do bjj, they're like "why?" and go on about how CMA is the answer to it all.

Alot of the bjj guys on the net that knock CMA aren't knocking CMA directly - they are knocking McKwoons and the guys that think kung fu is the be all end all. And you can't really blame them - of course taiji can be devastingly effective, but look at how it is taught nowadays at many schools (I'd venture to say most of them) all form and push hands, no fighting, no drilling, no explanation of the combat applications. How the hell can you expect to learn to fight that way? There are alot of TMA that talk about those schools also.

[dre]

Brad:
"If I wanted to apply it to this situation, I might note that you agree TMAists (the group you identify with more) bluster, but that they have a good reason for it (they do it because of the situation they've been put in)"

Not a *good* reason. I can identify WHY they are doing it, not that it is good or bad. It is just as annoying to me. I am closer to those people, so I would understand the rationale.

Although, I must remind you all that I am somewhat distant to both MMA/CMA, I am , and have been a Fencer for far longer than anything else. There is nothing to replace the shiny glint of bladed weapons.

"whereas MMAists (the group you see as Other) bluster, but they do it because they are blusterfull (this is evidence to you of them possessing fundamentally a negative characteristic). Notably, it seems like you identify the same behavior in two groups, but conclude different things from this identification; perhaps based on your... er.. identification... with one of the groups."


I can't identify why some of them do it, maybe it's media, maybe it's the general atmosphere. Can't tell you. Individual people tend to be wierd in their own ways.

"The 'experiment' has been going on for years."

Neh, needs to be scientific :)

"I don't think Iv'e seen a lynching of a BJJ'er on a TMA board"

Modify this statment - I saw it's supidness only after I posted it. I have not personally seen a non-troll BJJ'er bashed for no apparent reason. It's a pity if Knife and Merry were attack for no reason, I say that this isn't even an MA issue, it's a courtesy issue.

"Even so... by what logic do you conclude that being less populous makes having a bad attitude more acceptable?"

No, just less important. None of it is acceptable to me, the lack of politeness between arts grates on my nerves. In fact, the lack of politeness PERIOD , grates on my nerves.

"Popular media is just as swayed (if not more so) by undercurrents of popular opinion than by formal, drafted and paid advertising. Actually, yeah, way way more so."

Again I re-iterate that is view this advertising tack Negatively. (hear that, execs lisening to me) If they changed their tune and played nice I would be more interested.

"Tai Chi is HUGE if you include it. Wing chun is also quite popular. If you include Jun Fan/JKD on that... I'm not sure your statement is particularly accurate any more."

WC is big for CMA, but it isn't TKD. Tai CHi is big, I'll give you that. JKD/Jun Fan , well, is really dependent on the Sifu as to wether or not it's got a lot of CMA in it.

Seven Star :
"I got an experiment for you. Actually go to a class. the bjj guys there will be respectful. "

I was there a few months ago, I got laughed at when I said I did Mantis. I got more laughed at when I said I did 5 years of Fencing. They will not see me again.

"Many of the CMA guys I know look down on bjj, saying that it is a "lesser system" than CMA. I know a few TKD and JMA guys with that attitude, but it's mainly the CMA. "

Never heard that at all. Only TMA's trying to upgrade the curriculum to meet new challenges (ground). I have never heard BJJ bashed by anyone I know as being ineffetive or whatever.

"Here's the other thing I've noticed though - they don't really fight. they do point fighting but have never fought full contact, and many have never had a real fight"

I did full contact last thursday. I have chest pain to prove it. I had no pads as well. No mouth gaurd, no ball guard.

" The BJJ guys (and the TMA that fight) no better. They don't care what style you do, if you can kick arse with it, they respect it."

Bull,they are prejudiced , like everyone else. Not some noble meterstick of fighting ability you seem to think they are.

"When I started bjj, the bjjers were like "what's kung fu like?" how do they deal with x technique?" they were all ears for my responses, and never knocked any of it."

I could smell the blue belts lunch when he laughed at me.

"Alot of the bjj guys on the net that knock CMA aren't knocking CMA directly - they are knocking McKwoons and the guys that think kung fu is the be all end all. And you can't really blame them"

No, the McDojo/Kwoon/Watever syndrome is somthing that MMA gets a big pass on , they hardly have any of that, which is a good thing :)

[SevenStar]

Sounds like you had a bad experience. I haven't been through any of that. All of the bjj guys I train with are open minded. If you can use it, they respect it.

"Here's the other thing I've noticed though - they don't really fight. they do point fighting but have never fought full contact, and many have never had a real fight"

I did full contact last thursday. I have chest pain to prove it. I had no pads as well. No mouth gaurd, no ball guard.

that's close, but not what I meant. However, you aren't bashing bjj - at least not in the sense that the people I'm referring to do. When I say fight, I mean against other schools, be it mma rules, full contact, etc. not sparring in the kwoon. Whether you belive it or not, getting beaten is humbling, especially the first time it happens.

What did the blue belt have for lunch? :)

here's the kicker though - did you show him? when he laughed and said whatever he said, did you ask to cross hands? you can do it in a friendly matter without it being a challenge.

[Merryprankster]

I was there a few months ago, I got laughed at when I said I did Mantis. I got more laughed at when I said I did 5 years of Fencing. They will not see me again.

Dude, I KNOW where you went to visit, and all I can say is I've never seen them do well at tournaments :)

I think, really, you'll find that any place that puts out top quality fighters respects skill over style. It's that simple. The reason for this is because they LIVE by the credo that a belt only covers two inches of your ass and the rest you've got to cover for yourself.

Two points:

1. I've never seen Joe McBadazz do well at any tournament.
2. I've never seen Joe McBadazz stay past junior blue at any school that puts out fighters.

The dedication, hard work, and pain of becoming a top quality competitor is similar--identical, probably--to the toil of becoming a Kung Fu master. Self discovery takes on a lot of different forms and you really can find out what you're made of out there--and once you do you don't knock ANYONE without seeing what they can do relative to attitude and time in.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Braden
"A different kind of bluster I think."

A psych prof of mine once remarked that people tend to judge their own actions in terms of the situation they are in, and judge other's actions in terms of characteristics of that other. Just food for thought - it may be a useful exercise to try reversing this 'mechanism' and see how it affects your outlook.

it's called the 'fundamental attribution error.' the tendency to attribute your own actions and thoughts to mitigating circumstances but the thoughts and actions of others to a personality trait. and i agree with you wholeheartedly that it plays a part in this scenario.

i also agree with you about the reaction to various styles on the forums for other styles. yes, if a person goes to OT and says they do kung fu, they're going to get the typical boneheads saying that their stuff is crap.

now, go to cyberkwoon and tell them you do MMA. there's been a lot of this recently. my observations were that people at cyberkwoon were initially very hostile toward the MMA types. condescending mostly. a lot of 'you don't understand what real martial arts are all about.' incredibly presumptuous, to my mind.

but everyone hung in there, kept talking, and now discussions over there are a lot more constructive to my mind.

i suspect that the negative reactions stick in our head more forcefully, so if i go to a new site and post something, two people agree with me and two more tell me i'm retarded, i'm probably going to come away with a negative view of that experience.

in any event, i have to agree with everyone that says that it's a mixed bag. some MMA types are clowns. some TMA types are clowns. and some of each are just the type of people i want to train and hang with. that's just the way it is.


stuart b.

[sweaty_dog]

dre, I don't think it is really fair to judge every single BJJ school on the basis of one bad experience. I'm sure you could find some pretty screwy TMA schools too... (black dragon fighting society for instance). That doesn't mean they are all bad.


A few reasons, I say it is increasing in it's trash factor when I don't think it has to. I like to see/watch MMA, I don't want to see it go in that direction as a "Fan" so to speak. And also, it it gets really bad people might tend to see all MA'ists as a buch of rejects, which would be a bad thing.

Well, I'm glad you like MMA, I do too. I was directing my original post more at people that think MMAers are all scum ("fuk choads" seems to be the technical term). I agree that MMA is badly marketed, but if it leads to fighters actually making a little bit of money after they pay their medical bills and gym fees it can't be all bad.

"Also, my BJJ class doesn't bash other styles nearly as much as some kung fu schools I've been to. The only styles they really care much about are Judo, Japanese jiu jitsu and wrestling. The few idiots that come online to trash other MAs are a very small minority."

Explain further. What do you mean by "some schools", "the only ones they care about". All I got is crumbs over here , but no food.
And "nearly as much". My school don't bash at all , nether of them. This is less about martial arts, and more about manners.


The only bashing I have heard from guys in my class is of Judo for not being BJJ (they are the "enemy", although the teacher is happy if we train with them and learn their throws... as long as we beat their guys in newaza!) and wrestling for doing takedowns that drop you in guard. Strangely, he also recommends you train in these styles but don't pick up their "bad habits". They recommend doing striking with Muay Thai and boxing, but I have never heard much said about other styles except for occasional intelligent criticism (like "standing wrist locks don't work well on a resisting opponent") .

On the other hand, I have been to four different tai chi/ba gua schools, where bashing and politics were common. More by the students than the teacher, but still. Some of those guys really thought they were infinitely better than any "external" fighter. I have been to a few external places, although there were some real idiots at one of them, two were great, very down to earth and taught good stuff for kickboxing or self defence. One place teaches Muay Thai, Kung Fu and Karate (separate classes and instructors) and it is honestly one of my favourite places to train.

By the way my name is from a guy called Kevin Wallbridge on the internal forum here who called grapplers "sweaty dogs" (compared to the deadly tai chi wolves, of course). I liked it.

[apoweyn]

dre,


Originally posted by dre
Not a *good* reason. I can identify WHY they are doing it, not that it is good or bad. It is just as annoying to me. I am closer to those people, so I would understand the rationale.

that's precisely the point of the fundamental attribution error. it's not a question of whether you think they're right or no. it's a question of whether you attribute their behavior to circumstances that might be changed or a fundamental aspect of that person. the fact that you understand the rationale shows that you're attributing their behavior to something. something more complicated than "they're just like that."


I can't identify why some of them do it, maybe it's media, maybe it's the general atmosphere. Can't tell you. Individual people tend to be wierd in their own ways.

or they tend to react a given way for a reason. and unless you're willing to look for those reasons, you're not looking carefully enough.

clearly, you don't mean to be unfair or untruthful about this. but we all have a tendency to do this. and we all have a tendency, obviously, to draw conclusions from our own experience. and if my experience with MMA types is different from yours, then clearly neither is TRUE across the board.


Modify this statment - I saw it's supidness only after I posted it. I have not personally seen a non-troll BJJ'er bashed for no apparent reason. It's a pity if Knife and Merry were attack for no reason, I say that this isn't even an MA issue, it's a courtesy issue.

okay, but now you've drawn a distinction between a non-troll BJJer (merryprankster or knifefighter) and a troll BJJer. why? because you've had a chance to observe merryprankster or knifefighter for long enough to know what they're like. and to understand that if they do say something that seems 'off', there's probably a mitigating circumstance, misunderstanding, or even respectful difference in opinion.

probably best to view your experience at that BJJ school as meeting a bunch of trolls. their behavior comes from the same place as troll behavior on the internet. and it's no more reflective of the entirety of MMA than the various kung fu trolls here have been of CMA.


stuart b.

p.s. i'm a fan of fencing myself. don't have nearly the experience you do, mind you.

[scotty1]

Yet again, diversity is the answer. :)

[dre]

Sounds like you had a bad experience. I haven't been through any of that. All of the bjj guys I train with are open minded. If you can use it, they respect it.

Would that I had the BJJ school that you do.

that's close, but not what I meant. However, you aren't bashing bjj - at least not in the sense that the people I'm referring to do. When I say fight, I mean against other schools, be it mma rules, full contact, etc. not sparring in the kwoon. Whether you belive it or not, getting beaten is humbling, especially the first time it happens.

You are making the assumption that I always win. I don't. I don't know that it is humbling ether - I don't think I had any prefious expectations to be humbled. I just try , thats it.

What did the blue belt have for lunch? :)

I didn't know they make Onion-Flavoured Gis.

here's the kicker though - did you show him? when he laughed and said whatever he said, did you ask to cross hands? you can do it in a friendly matter without it being a challenge.

It was more like this : "have you any previous experience?"

"yes, I've done Manis"

"Ha hah ha"

"Fencing as well"

"Ha ha ha x2"

Not really much to argue about or "show".

[dre]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

The reason for this is because they LIVE by the credo that a belt only covers two inches of your ass and the rest you've got to cover for yourself.


I forget which Gracie said that. Was it Royce?

Anyway , the other info gladdens my heart ;)

[dre]

Apo :
"t's called the 'fundamental attribution error.' the tendency to attribute your own actions and thoughts"

How does this apply to me? I ain't out there screaming from the rooftops how I can use Qi to explode my enemies. I only try to observe.

"i suspect that the negative reactions stick in our head more forcefully, so if i go to a new site and post something, two people agree with me and two more tell me i'm retarded, i'm probably going to come away with a negative view of that experience."

This is a good explanation.

"a question of whether you attribute their behavior to circumstances that might be changed"

I don't see anything changes. The status of MMA might go down or up, but I see no light for CMA. It's going down with no real big hopes for the future. If there is change, things will only decline for CMA. Lack of unity, apparent weakness and screcy cripple CMA at many times.

"or they tend to react a given way for a reason. and unless you're willing to look for those reasons, you're not looking carefully enough."

I don't see the reason, that does not mean I have not looked for a reason , do you have a reason?

"probably best to view your experience at that BJJ school as meeting a bunch of trolls. their behavior comes from the same place as troll behavior on the internet. and it's no more reflective of the entirety of MMA than the various kung fu trolls here have been of CMA."

I shudder to think they are all that bad - the fact remains that if I want BJJ style Newaza, I will have to do Judo as there is no other place of that type in the Area. (Unless I somehow get up the money/time to travel to the city to study at the Gracie school. An idea which Merry suggested.

"p.s. i'm a fan of fencing myself. don't have nearly the experience you do, mind you."

Whats your weapon?

Dog -

"dre, I don't think it is really fair to judge every single BJJ school on the basis of one bad experience. I'm sure you could find some pretty screwy TMA schools too... (black dragon fighting society for instance). That doesn't mean they are all bad."

I don't think said that, or that I mean that. My orrigional statement is that this behavior is more prevelent/acceptable. Not that everyone is that way.

" I agree that MMA is badly marketed, but if it leads to fighters actually making a little bit of money after they pay their medical bills and gym fees it can't be all bad. "

Maybe they are focusing on the wrong markets - the US maybe isn't ready for it, Asia might be more welcoming.

"bashing and politics were common"

Weak organization and bashing are two different things. KF in general has very weak governing bodies. Not like WTF for example. Apparently we have opposite expereinces.

[SevenStar]

"I shudder to think they are all that bad - the fact remains that if I want BJJ style Newaza, I will have to do Judo as there is no other place of that type in the Area. (Unless I somehow get up the money/time to travel to the city to study at the Gracie school. An idea which Merry suggested. "

Go for it. You'll learn alot of good stuff there.

"It was more like this : "have you any previous experience?"

"yes, I've done Manis"

"Ha hah ha"

"Fencing as well"

"Ha ha ha x2"

Not really much to argue about or "show"."

okay, let's try this a different way:

It was more like this : "have you any previous experience?"

"yes, I've done Manis"

"Ha hah ha"

"What's funny about training in Mantis?"

"Kung fu? Get real. you can't fight with that"

"Think so? If you've got time, I'd really love to show you the effectiveness of my style."

You don't really have to spar him. Just have him try various techniques, and show him how you deal with them. In turn, have him show you how he deals with certain techniques.

[dre]

"You don't really have to spar him. Just have him try various techniques, and show him how you deal with them. In turn, have him show you how he deals with certain techniques."

Nah, he'd just try to tackle me. Becides, I am also surrounded by equally doubtfull BJJ'ers , none of whom I want to pay attention to me.

Whats done is done anyway. I wonder where the Onion Gis are sold. . .

[SevenStar]

That's exactly what you want - you should be able to take his techniques and render them ineffective. When he tries to double leg you, do what you have to do to stop it. If you can prevent him from taking you down, at least fend off a few attempts, or better yet, throw him in the process - he will have more respect for your style.

you're right though, what's done is done.

[wushu chik]

HONESTLY....Ryu, i love ya, but i could give a flying rats ass about MMA. It's what it is, but it's only that. Again...sorry, but it's not that big of a deal....let's get back to the KUNG FU threads....

And yes, Ryu, i STILL LOVE YA!!!

~Wen~

[apoweyn]

dre,


Originally posted by dre
Apo :
"t's called the 'fundamental attribution error.' the tendency to attribute your own actions and thoughts"

How does this apply to me? I ain't out there screaming from the rooftops how I can use Qi to explode my enemies. I only try to observe.

i don't know that it does, mate. but that's what the theory's called. :)

but, according to the theory itself, it applies to all of us. not all the time, obviously. it just describes a tendency. think about it like this: i'm fundamentally a good guy (really, ask merryprankster or no_know). but sometimes i walk around this office with a death glare. i know i'm being like that because i'm stressed about my wedding, or a big project, or whatever. so i know i'm not a complete arsehole. anyone that knows me at the office might not know specifically why i'm acting like that, but they know me well enough to know i'm not generally like that. so there must be some circumstance causing it. NOW, the guy from another department who has to come and see me about something is greeted by a frowning, snapping, and otherwise disagreeable ap Oweyn. and he leaves my office thinking, "that guy's kind of an arsehole."

that's the fundamental attribution error. his 'default' reaction was to figure that i'm 'just like that' instead of thinking 'he must be under a lot of stress.'

whether that applies to this situation is purely a judgment call. i don't know. but if it did, their behavior could be attributed to insecurity, lack of experience with 'real' gung fu, peer pressure, camraderie, etc.

the fact is that you experienced this. it was real. so there's no point in saying that it wasn't. or that you're wrong. only that it's not indicative of MMA in general. and you know that already. you've said as much. so i'm not arguing anything with you. just agreeing in a ridiculously long-winded way. :)


I don't see anything changes. The status of MMA might go down or up, but I see no light for CMA. It's going down with no real big hopes for the future. If there is change, things will only decline for CMA. Lack of unity, apparent weakness and screcy cripple CMA at many times.

well, not training in CMA myself, i can only hope that it's not quite that bleak.


I don't see the reason, that does not mean I have not looked for a reason , do you have a reason?

not a definitive one. ignorance is the most likely candidate. please understand that i'm not suggesting that you just let trash talking roll off of your back. it bothers you. and that colours your view of the group those guys represent. that's perfectly logical. but they were ignorant. you could teach them better if you so chose. or if not them (if they're too ignorant), other MMA'ers more open minded.


I shudder to think they are all that bad - the fact remains that if I want BJJ style Newaza, I will have to do Judo as there is no other place of that type in the Area. (Unless I somehow get up the money/time to travel to the city to study at the Gracie school. An idea which Merry suggested.

trust me, if those guys represented the BJJ to which you have access, i feel for you. that stinks. (not that i'm stuck on BJJ myself, but if you wanted to go there, and they turned out to be a bunch of tools, that stinks.)

as for merryprankster, he's become a good friend of mine since meeting via KFO last year. for whatever it's worth, i'd trust his advice.


"p.s. i'm a fan of fencing myself. don't have nearly the experience you do, mind you."

Whats your weapon?

well, i studied a little fencing in college because i was already into eskrima by then. i knew that the spanish had occupied the philippines for a long time, and that fencing had greatly influenced eskrima ('esgrima' being spanish for fencing). and i was right. the influence was obvious.

i mention all that because i wasn't coming at fencing from a 'art for art's sake' viewpoint. that said, i loved it. great fun. sabre was my favorite simply because it most closely resembled the stick work from eskrima (slashing and thrusting made more of the angles available to me, for both parrying and attacking).

you?


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

wushu chik,


Originally posted by wushu chik
HONESTLY.... i could give a flying rats ass about MMA.


and yet you clicked on a link saying 'what's wrong with MMA?'

huh.

don't you think the issues surrounding MMA bear some relevance on gung fu? perhaps not for you personally, but for the community as a whole?


stuart b.

[dre]

"so i'm not arguing anything with you. just agreeing in a ridiculously long-winded way."

Oh, OK :)

"well, not training in CMA myself, i can only hope that it's not quite that bleak."

I really find no evidence to supposrt much of any other conclusion. Other than some quick change (which is totally possible) or the appearance of some BL-esque figure.

"ignorance is the most likely candidate"

True dat!

"you?"

Well, I learned thema ll at one timeor another, but it is Epee I liek the best. It demands the most precision with the least rules. No right of way is the rule I like the most :) Free for all.

[apoweyn]

all targets are open for epee, right? thrusting weapon, but you can even hit the foot if you choose, yeah?

[Braden]

IMHO, foil requires much more precision than epee, being both faster and having a smaller area of attack/defense. Similarly, I think it's the best weapon for people to focus on the attributes specific to fencing.

Epee is actually my least favorite. It always struck me as heavier, less technical foil. Saber I felt was very fun, but wasn't as good at developping fencing attributes. But good fun... for some reason, it's incredibly satisfying to hit a tiny downward stroke to someone's forehead. Like a little snooty british 'you suck.'

Er... apologies to the brits here... you know what I mean.

[rogue]

I think it'd be cool to start selling BadBoy gear for fencers.

[apoweyn]

[laugh]

maybe put the 'two eyes' motif on the bell of the epee. so when you're getting stabbed in the chest, all you see is the big eyes glaring at ya?

[dre]

Apo : "all targets are open for epee, right? thrusting weapon, but you can even hit the foot if you choose, yeah?"

Yes, and anything connected to the body (shoe laces for example). Foot strikes are a common tactic. Why? Becuase it is close.

"maybe put the 'two eyes' motif on the bell of the epee. so when you're getting stabbed in the chest, all you see is the big eyes glaring at you"

My bell gaurd is too beat up , I block with it as a rule. But I am an aggressive player.

Braden : "IMHO, foil requires much more precision than epee, being both faster and having a smaller area of attack/defense."

Foil has rules though, right or way etc. You need to think aboutout those before you make your attacks. I"m not sure that it is "precise" - depends on your definition. Sure, you can hit any target on the body - but so can your opponent. People seem to forget this :) Foil is epee theory. What is learned there becomes applied in Epee.

"Similarly, I think it's the best weapon for people to focus on the attributes specific to fencing."

I disagree here. If you only see foil you miss slashing techniques, true, which are secondary to thrust, but are also important. Further, since foil is baisically theory (too many rules to be real enough) it is a weapon taught to begginers to train them on the baisics in a very safe way. If you only focus on this, you miss the application of the techs - which is found in Epee/Saber.

"Epee is actually my least favorite. It always struck me as heavier, less technical foil."

Technique is much less obvious. It takes a more experienced eye to spot it. Exaggerated technique found in foil (to show judges etc that a valid move was done) cannot be done in Epee. Wide movments will open up close targets which will get you hit , andd there is no right of way to protect you in Epee. The cardinal point of epee is tight, controlled actions, not necissairily done exactly as the form dictates in foil. The tighter, the faster and the more precise - the better. This does not lend itself to viewability.

However, this does not mean you can't pull off fancy moves. I once pulled off a top arm arrest in tournamnet in front of a crowed of 150+ people. Nice applause I got.

"Saber I felt was very fun, but wasn't as good at developping fencing attributes."

Saber is not for baisic development - that is the provance of foil. Foil is theory - leaning baisic suff - then you learn more in Saber and Epee - but they are developments of that orgional Foil base.
Also, youu need to see a good Saber coach, the will change your mind :)

[Braden]

Dre

"Foil has rules though, right or way etc. You need to think aboutout those before you make your attacks."

I hope not! You're bound to get tagged pretty easily if you sit there thinking.

"Foil is epee theory. What is learned there becomes applied in Epee."

That's exactly my point. Foil is like concentrated fencing. This is what I meant when I said I felt it focused the most on fencing-specific attributes.

"since foil is baisically theory"

Foil isn't theory. It's swordfighting. In a foil class, you don't sit around reading books, you fight each other with swords.

"too many rules to be real enough"

Epee has too many rules to be real enough as well. None of the fencing styles even begin to approximate a real encounter. So why would you train fencing for self-defense? For some of the specific attributes it builds. With that in mind, see above.

"it is a weapon taught to begginers"

True. Although I'm not sure why this would be evidence against it's technical precision.

"to train them on the baisics"

Yes, to train them in the specific skills they need to succeed in fencing, in the most effiecient manner possible. Which is exactly what I said.

"in a very safe way"

Foil isn't significantly safer than epee or saber. All of them are very safe.

"If you only focus on this, you miss the application of the techs - which is found in Epee/Saber."

The application of the techniques? This isn't formwork. I have faith in just about anyone's ability to figure out what the application of thrusting a sword through someone's liver is. Moreover, your above discussion of 'shoelaces' being an excellent epee target pretty effectively argues against this point.

"Technique is much less obvious. It takes a more experienced eye to spot it."

Come on. Could have just said you disagreed. :p

"Exaggerated technique found in foil (to show judges etc that a valid move was done) cannot be done in Epee..."

I'm not sure who taught you foil fencing. Presumably someone that wanted to rush you through it to get you working on epee, since it's alot more popular both generally and in competition circuits (ie. sporting and money concerns). But the foil can, quite obviously, move quicker than the epee can. This makes the necessity for precise, tight actions (not to mention a proper guard posture) much greater than in epee. You've argued quite well as to why emphasis on this is important. The restricted target zones further increase the importance of defensive posture; something whose utility greatly decreases when you have to worry about people scoring on you with (utterly unrealistics) strikes to your clothes and far extremities.

"Also, youu need to see a good Saber coach, the will change your mind"

Change my mind about it being fun? :confused:

[dre]

"I hope not! You're bound to get tagged pretty easily if you sit there thinking."

That dosen't really matter if you do the correct action, and thereby gain right of way, and therefore the touch. The almighty Perry-reposte can be pretty slow in foil and still get the point.

Anyway, try Epee or Saber - the way of going about it is entirely different, you will lose hits that you thought you had, due to different rules. Hitting first begins to matter in Saber then is all that matters in Epee.

"That's exactly my point. Foil is like concentrated fencing. This is what I meant when I said I felt it focused the most on fencing-specific attributes. "

I agree that it is the Basics - I don't know if I agree with concentraited, since it implies that the other two are somwhat more soft or whatever. Foil has all the attributes of Fencing that the public expects it to have - in this way you can say "concentraited".

"Foil isn't theory. It's swordfighting. In a foil class, you don't sit around reading books, you fight each other with swords."

Foil is moving theory. THe fact that there are right of way rules that give the point to the person who hit second a good part of the time, limited target and very demanding form make it theory.

"Epee has too many rules to be real enough as well."

Those rules are mostly in your own interest - for example - you can't tackle anybody. Why would you want to though? You'd get stabbed the minute you tried. What "rules" are these that epee has? I remeber being bell punched as a 13 yo kid in a tournament.

"None of the fencing styles even begin to approximate a real encounter. So why would you train fencing for self-defense? For some of the specific attributes it builds. With that in mind, see above. "

I didn't train it for SD. But I have used it real life once for SD. That made me realize that it isn't worthless in that context.

"Foil isn't significantly safer than epee or saber. All of them are very safe. "

How much does a foil weigh next to an epee? They are all pretty safe, true, but epee hits much harder.

"The application of the techniques? This isn't formwork."

It is. No difference between this and three legged Cat Kungfu or Kaiukata- kai Karate. There is a right and wrong way to do things.

Plus - with only foil , you are missing the whole slashing thing.

"I have faith in just about anyone's ability to figure out what the application of thrusting a sword through someone's liver is"

lol! I've met ***totally*** hopess cases. Some people just suck at fencing, you are quite wrong here. I remember someone who could never do the footwork and was always falling down. . .

"But the foil can, quite obviously, move quicker than the epee can."

Yes. Epee is much larger and heavier.

"This makes the necessity for precise, tight actions (not to mention a proper guard posture) much greater than in epee."

This is bull. Why? becuase it's small? Thats not a reason. I could arge the same saying the epee target is whole body while foil is only chest. No - you don't need (but shoudl have) tight actions in foil becuase if you know how to gain right of way it is all you need. Right of way is GOD in foil. Please him and he will shower you with foil medals.

Have you ever seen an epee match (good)? They square off and evaluate eachother - postioning is very important. Actions tend to be shorter, since the hit is more as a result og a gaurd weakness than a mistake in moves. Blocks are tight and involve the wrist more than anything, since the whoel body is target you can't risk opening up lines. However this concern is much lower in Foil , since those other lines don't exist and you will gain right of way by doing a blocking action. (perry-riposte)

"Change my mind about it being fun?"

No , about it teaching you little.

"The restricted target zones further increase the importance of defensive posture"

I could say the unrestricted target zone totally necciessitate defence in Epee , since an attack can be going Anywhere.

"something whose utility greatly decreases when you have to worry about people scoring on you with (utterly unrealistics)
strikes to your clothes and far extremities."

I've only seen that tried/worked once - thats why I commented on it. Very much an oddity - but somthing the rules allow for. Also, most people will never try it, since it will be counted as a floor hit 99% of the time, only on a Metal grounded strip (which costs $$$$) could a hit like that be counted. So that is more anecdotal than anythign else- it does not reflect any normal Epee hit.

[Braden]

"Anyway, try Epee or Saber"

I have, as I noted.

"...make it theory."

If 'having rules' makes it theory versus application, than epee and sabre too are theory.

"Those rules are mostly in your own interest - for example - you can't tackle anybody. Why would you want to though? You'd get stabbed the minute you tried."

Would you? You'd never know since the rules prohibit it. Dogbrother's style fighting seems to show that tackling is a very viable tactic. Curiously, so do the fight manuals that describe the art modern fencing was derived from. Here's a resource where you can verify the latter: http://www.aemma.org/library_top.htm ; and the former: http://www.dogbrothers.com/dogbytesindex.htm

"What 'rules' are these that epee has?"

I'm a little confused by this discussion tactic. You give an answer to this question in the sentance preceeding it.

"I didn't train it for SD."

Then our difference of opinion is explained!

"It is. No difference between this and three legged Cat Kungfu or Kaiukata- kai Karate. There is a right and wrong way to do things."

I don't understand how this 'answer' addresses the question at all.

"Some people just suck at fencing, you are quite wrong here."

Or this.

"Plus - with only foil , you are missing the whole slashing thing."

Epee slashes now?

"I could arge the same saying the epee target is whole body while foil is only chest."

You could, but again it wouldn't seem to have anything to do with what was being discussed. I said was that foil was faster. You actually agree with that two lines above calling it bull. And I said faster necessitates more controlled movements, which was only a repeat of what you said in the previous post.

"No , about it teaching you little."

Which is something I never said to begin with. :confused:

"I could say the unrestricted target zone totally necciessitate defence in Epee..."

And again, I was never commenting on 'defense.'

[dre]

Ha ha very funney, speak directly to me and I will debate you, I won't chase you around in circles though.

[Braden]

I'm sorry if my writing is obscure. If you could indicate a superior method for 'speaking directly to you' than directly quoting and replying to what you say point by point, and offering external sources to support my claims, I would appreciatively adopt it. Or, if you could indicate on which point I've been obscure, I will happily clarify. Otherwise, it's been a pleasure speaking with you. Happy training.